Removing Berserker frenzy penalty

[Uncleterri]

So I was thinking of removing the exhaustion penalty for frenzy, basically allowing barbarians to be in frenzy anytime they rage. To me, a player should always be able to use the main ability of their rage just like every other barbarian subclass. Is this a mistake? Does this make the berserker subclass outshine all the others?

[Tanarii]

IIRC it does, pretty significantly. Certainly in any battle that goes more than 3-4 rounds, remembering that you can't start using the Frenzy Bonus action attack until the 2nd round.

Better solution is probably to give one "free" frenzy, and after that start exhaustion stacking. Also if you don't have significant downtime between long rests, possibly have frenzy induced exhaustion levels recover quicker than other exhaustion levels.

[CTurbo]

I think completely removing the penalty is too strong, but not game breaking. Being able to make a full blown weapon attack with your Bonus Action at level 3 is very strong. Remember that this Bonus Action attack has nothing to do with what you chose to do with your Action. I think most people assume that it's like TWF where you get the Bonus Action attack *if* you attacked with your action.

I do feel the phb penalty is too steep though, and I have always offered 1 free Frenzy each day before exhaustion starts.

[Eldariel]

It's not a problem in that there's still reasons to pick all the other subclasses. Barbarian isn't the pinnacle of power anyways. Berserker is supposed to be the damage dealer Barbarian but currently it's barely better at it than any other kind, while having little beyond Mindless Rage to show for it (that's a great ability, granted). I think without the penalty, Berserker would be good for what it does but as what it does isn't very good (basically just saves you a feat, which is nice but not for a whole subclass), it'd still be balanced.

I'd still rather play Totem Warrior, Ancestral Guardian, or Zealot because they offer harder-to-acquire benefits though with Mindless Frenzy and the solid Frenzy attack, Berserker would enter the equation at least. It's one of the few ways to get a bonus action attack without attacking as your main action, so there's also some interesting multiclass/combo potential in there.

[Protolisk]

I played a variant that had no fatigue at all, and it felt fine. Maybe it could feel excessive with GWM or PAM, but that would neutralize half the benefit of those two feats anyway. I never saw a problem with it, and it isn't likely to outpace other characters.

[JonBeowulf]

I did exactly what Tanarii and CTurbo said... I gave my group's barb a free frenzy and it did precisely what I thought it would -- the barb actually used it!

Removing it entirely sounds like quite a boost and, to me, it cheapens the ability. Right now there's a cost with doing it, which means the character only pulls it out when it's necessary. There's nothing special about something you can do all the time with no cost.

[Frogreaver]

With no other features other than reckless attack frenzy boosts a Barbarians Rage DPR to around 35 @ 60% chance to hit (no Feats). That's quite a bit of damage. Making that on all the time would be bonkers IMO. A single free use is the most reasonable and easiest to implement enhancement IMO.

[stoutstien]

I just flipped the location of frenzy and retaliation and it seems be working fine.

[Theodoxus]

I make it free, if and only if, the player uses it exactly like TWF, or Horde Breaker (without requiring a second target) - basically, if it's used in conjunction with an attack action it doesn't incur fatigue. However, if they instead use their action for any other purpose: Dash, Disengage, Dodge, etc, then they'll incur exhaustion for that rage.

I never thought it fair that a Hunter could use the exact* same mechanic with a small restriction - having a second target) without penalty. *It was pointed out probably the first time this discussion was proposed (about .3452 seconds after the PHB was in the hands of a forum member) that the BA for Frenzy isn't keyed to anything (as CTurbo reminds us above), unlike every other BA attack - and note that HB isn't a BA either...

So, me feeling is if you're using Frenzy to its full potential, allowing you to do anything else and still make an attack, that's going to hurt. But if it's just part of your regular attack sequence, then you're fine.

I'd also be happy with granting 1 free use as well. I'll probably incorporate that change too. Let the Berserker have their fun once a day (and it wouldn't have to be the first use - if the player manages to keep Frenzy to full attacks (to borrow from 3rd Ed) for a combat or two, and then needs to Disengage or Dodge (pairing nicely with Reckless Attack) and still get an attack in, then they burn their free use at that point.

It's a boost, but one that takes clarity while still maintaining the idea of just going full on beat down mode.

[Zhorn]

Segev had a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628103-Berserker-level-3-reworking) not too long back talking about a Frenzy rework for Berserker.

In there I got the idea to turn Frenzy into a repeated DC10 CON save against exhaustion each time you use the bonus action to make a Frenzy attack. No additional 'enter a frenzy' step, just if you are raging you can use a bonus action to make a frenzy attack.

At low levels it's not something you'll want to rely on without a decent CON modifier and/or proficiency in the save so it guards it against being an auto pick for multiclassing.

For Barbarians that do have the save proficiency and an incentive to invest into CON as part of the class mechanics and flavour that DC10 isn't going to be all that scary as a one off check, but the cumulative probability of making that check every round will mean longer fights pose a greater risk of gaining a level of exhaustion. Less punishing than a guaranteed exhaustion though.

But most importantly it is a risk that minimizes as you level up, be it through investing into CON, or just from Proficiency Bonus going up as you progress in levels, and eventually overcome completely. Once you get to a +9 CON save modifier there's no longer a risk. High enough to require serious investment, but low enough that it is technically achievable by 9th level (CON +5, Prof +4), or as late as tier 4 if only taking 16 CON by level 16 or 19 ASI (level 17 having Prof +6, CON +3), and if you don't invest beyond a 12 into CON all throughout levelling, Primal Champion giving a +4 Con will get you the rest of the way into eliminating the risk.

[Thunderous Mojo]

My 1st Houserule on the day that the 5e PHB was initially released was to remove the Exhaustion penalty from Frenzy. Prior editions of D&D have similarly used penalties to 'balance' Frenzy like abilities in the past and those efforts typically result in 'punishing' a player, (and the group), for selecting a particular subclass.

The tension between classes with a 'Short Rest Schedule' and those classes with a 'Long Rest Schedule' is significant enough, without adding a Berserker Barbarian wanting to take a Long Rest after their 1st use of Rage.

It was a poor design decision by the D&D team, to continue this particular 'Tradition'. Mike Mearls had a much more interesting Rage mechanic in Iron Heroes, (a 3e style RPG system) he designed 20 years ago.

Post Tasha's a cleric can at 5th level convert a Channel Divinity use into a Second Level spell slot every Short Rest. Spiritual Weapon is not balanced by causing a cleric to garner Exhaustion after every use of the spell...yet the bonus action attack granted by Frenzy is?

The Rage ability damage bonus is adding the effect of an additional 1d8 per hit once the Rage Bonus is a +4. On doesn't need to Exhaust the Berserker to balance the Bonus Action Attack granted by Frenzy...it is overkill.

Now adding Exhaustion side effects to Animate Objects or Summon Spells might be an appropriate act of 'balancing' the game.😉

[Quietus]

I am still a fan of handling frenzy in one of two ways. In both cases, the exhaustion cost is removed.

1 - allow a bonus action attack each turn, but it is with 1d4 damage.
2 - allow one missed attack to be rerolled per turn

The idea is that frenzy barbarian should be the "reliable offense" option to the bear barbarians "reliable defense". The first point above keeps the current idea but tones it down so it can be used every rage, while the second makes the frenzy barbarian the peak great weapon master barbarian.

Another option would be only allowing the bonus action attack on rounds where the barbarian used reckless attack. There are time's where that can really leave you open, and that feeds into the idea of a berserker.

[Uncleterri]

I am still a fan of handling frenzy in one of two ways. In both cases, the exhaustion cost is removed.

1 - allow a bonus action attack each turn, but it is with 1d4 damage.
2 - allow one missed attack to be rerolled per turn

The idea is that frenzy barbarian should be the "reliable offense" option to the bear barbarians "reliable defense". The first point above keeps the current idea but tones it down so it can be used every rage, while the second makes the frenzy barbarian the peak great weapon master barbarian.

Another option would be only allowing the bonus action attack on rounds where the barbarian used reckless attack. There are time's where that can really leave you open, and that feeds into the idea of a berserker.

So basically you make frenzy a worse polearm master

[whateew]

An alternative option: taking what the wizards have recently been doing with proficiency bonuses, try tying it to that maybe?

Example: while raging, you can take up to prof. bonus times bonus action attacks (or possibly even just part of the attack actions) per rage. Every additional usage costs one exhaustion

[Rihno]

My Houserule:

Every Frenzy requires CON save throw from Barbarian at the end of Frenzy or he gets 1 level of Exhaustion.

DC is increasing with each Frenzy use. It starts with 14 after first, 15 second and so on. Now at level 12 it can go up to DC 19 and at this point Barbarian still probably has CON 16, so he has +7 to CON save throw, meaning that using his 5th Frenzy will require him to roll 12+, which is still not bad.

[Frogreaver]

My Houserule:

Every Frenzy requires CON save throw from Barbarian at the end of Frenzy or he gets 1 level of Exhaustion.

DC is increasing with each Frenzy use. It starts with 14 after first, 15 second and so on. Now at level 12 it can go up to DC 19 and at this point Barbarian still probably has CON 16, so he has +7 to CON save throw, meaning that using his 5th Frenzy will require him to roll 12+, which is still not bad.

IMO, there's a reason nothing else in the game is balanced using similar mechanisms.

[Samayu]

The tension between classes with a 'Short Rest Schedule' and those classes with a 'Long Rest Schedule' is significant enough, without adding a Berserker Barbarian wanting to take a Long Rest after their 1st use of Rage.

It was a poor design decision by the D&D team, to continue this particular 'Tradition'.
What bothers me about it is that it's your whole subclass bonus, and you can't use it every fight. And also that you have to choose carefully when to use it, so you (or less-experienced players) might decline to use it altogether, trying to save it up for a fight that never comes.

[Zhorn]

IMO, there's a reason nothing else in the game is balanced using similar mechanisms.
Relentless Rage uses a similar mechanism of a climbing DC on each successive use, starting at DC10 and increasing by +5 each subsequent time.

[Frogreaver]

Relentless Rage uses a similar mechanism of a climbing DC on each successive use, starting at DC10 and increasing by +5 each subsequent time.

Okay there's a reason only 1 thing in the game uses such a mechanism and it's something that prevents you from reaching 0 hp. Is that better?

[Silly Name]

I think this kinda goes too far in the opposite direction, in the sense I think it's "fair" for there to be a cost associated with having a better Rage, because if there's none then it may as well just be part of your Rage by default (which isn't all bad, I guess).

But, really, to me the issue with Berserker is twofold: one, as the "generic" subclass it suffers from the same problems as Champion, which means it feels very bland and stays too simple and underpowered; two, there is no real way for players to interact with Exhaustion levels except from sleeping them off, which I feel makes even one level of Exhaustion far too impactful.

[stoutstien]

I think this kinda goes too far in the opposite direction, in the sense I think it's "fair" for there to be a cost associated with having a better Rage, because if there's none then it may as well just be part of your Rage by default (which isn't all bad, I guess).

But, really, to me the issue with Berserker is twofold: one, as the "generic" subclass it suffers from the same problems as Champion, which means it feels very bland and stays too simple and underpowered; two, there is no real way for players to interact with Exhaustion levels except from sleeping them off, which I feel makes even one level of Exhaustion far too impactful.

IMO the Berserker was supposed to highlight the reward part of the risk/reward play style the class has where just about every other subclass focused on reduction of the risks. Zerker has more risk and more reward but just was poorly implemented.

[Cikomyr2]

My Houserule:

Every Frenzy requires CON save throw from Barbarian at the end of Frenzy or he gets 1 level of Exhaustion.

DC is increasing with each Frenzy use. It starts with 14 after first, 15 second and so on. Now at level 12 it can go up to DC 19 and at this point Barbarian still probably has CON 16, so he has +7 to CON save throw, meaning that using his 5th Frenzy will require him to roll 12+, which is still not bad.

The barbarian requires a con save equals to 10+ number of time he used the bonus action to attack during the frenzy.

[Theodoxus]

IMO the Berserker was supposed to highlight the reward part of the risk/reward play style the class has where just about every other subclass focused on reduction of the risks. Zerker has more risk and more reward but just was poorly implemented.

From the research I've done, Berserker was one of the first archetypes completed. And then apparently nobody went back through and rebalanced it as more classes were finalized in D&DNext. The mechanics are literally out of whack because they were built on assumptions that were later tossed out as the design for the underlying meta mechanics were honed.

But, unlike Ranger, there wasn't much of an outcry over their mechanics, so no one at WotC has developed alternate features.

Maybe there could be Potions of Minor Vitality that only removes exhaustion, so they won't be so freakin' expensive... Although, I'm ok with Lesser Restoration removing 1 level and Greater Restoration removing all. It would bring exhaustion back into balance for the most part.

[Rihno]

The barbarian requires a con save equals to 10+ number of time he used the bonus action to attack during the frenzy.

That can work too. I think anything can work, people just need to run few sessions and test it and then adjust. Berserker imo is simple but very effective Barbarian to play as , saving you need to spend ASI on PAM, which for me is always good as 9/10 melee builds are PAM or PAM + GWM and it's hard to blame players for that. Fixed Berserker actually allows you to use more variety of weapons in game, instead of locking yourself to polearms.

[micahaphone]

Another 2 options, depending on your table/party's uses of short rests, Berserkers can recover 1 level exhaustion on short rest and/or all levels of exhaustion on long rest, so that a particularly taxing adventuring day doesn't leave you weak and crappy for the next few days.

[Rev666]

The rule i used was that to enter a frenzy cost 2 uses of your rage. So at level 3 you could rage 3 times or rage once and frenzy once. Then at level 6 you could rage 4 times, or frenzy twice, or rage twice and frenzy once.

We never had any problems that way and the exhaustion was represented by the fact that he couldn't get the oomph to push his bloodlust into action as much.