Grappler 6 Lore bard/X Rune Knight

[adb82]

Hello guys,
i was thinking about this grappling build and i need some feedback.
Basically Enlarge give him the chance to get Huge and go to grapple even gargantuan creatures, ill get some spell like cloud of daggers or moonbeam and bring the enemies there inside, or using the Jump spell for deal falling damage (and i dont understand if after falling they are still grappled and prone or not, how this work?) if im using fear for frightning them while grappled, expertise on atheltics, cutting words for dont let they get free from my hands, lv 6th bard for counterspell with jack of all trades and i still dont know what else...is this going to work well?

Starting with 5 lv rune knight, than i supposed to get 6 lv lore bard and go on with the fighter till the end.

For the stat for a Vhuman i though something like:
STR 16
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 16

For the feat im not sure because i have 2 different routes in mind, one that include the defense fighting style and Tavern Brawler, fighting with 2 free hands, and one with Unarmed fighting style and Shield Master, so with just one hand free. So the first thing i would like to ask is which combo FS/feat do you think work better for this character?
Of course TB or SM would be the feat choosen at 1st lv for Vhuman.

From there i would get +2 STR at 4th lv, Mobile 9th lv, +2 CON 12 Lv, Though 15th Lv
I think mobile will be useful for go get and walk with monsters grappled, but im not sure if its really needed as maybe there is something more useful i didnt think about...even just +2 STR, alert or mage slayer (Cant choose lucky with my DM rules)...

Have you some other idea about how to optimize this build and/or some other good Grappler build? I was considering also a beast barb multiclassed with rune knight, but it gonna lose spellcasting, expertise, jack of all trade and the chance to become huge, for get the tail for attack while grapling, rage, rackless attack and resistence while raging a bit redundant with the rune feature. Probably diping bard is much better...

[adb82]

What other Multiclass option do you think can make a Rune Knight a better Grappler?

[prototype00]

What other Multiclass option do you think can make a Rune Knight a better Grappler?

Are you set on multiclassing? What was it you were hoping to get?

[Waazraath]

I really don't see that much added value in multiclassing out of Rune Knight, if you want to grapple. You already got the enlargment (so you can grapple huge creatures) and advantage on athletics checks, both with giant might, and you get extra ASI's with which you can get expertise in grapple. With proficiency, expertise, advantage and maxed out str you should win every grappling context, but if needed you can even use the storm rune to give the opponent disadvantage.

The only thing that bard gives you is enlarge (so you can grapple gargantual before level 18, where Rune Knight allows you to become huge). But how often is this a thing, and how high is the chance somebody in your party can simply cast this if this is the best course of action? The bonusses on grapple that lore bard gives aren't needed at this point, and the opportunity cost is high. You need a moderately high charisma to be able to multiclass, and probably 14 at least since else bardic inspiration is wasted. You gain fewer (and later) ASI's, have less hp, have worse saves. Rune knight is also one of the fighter subclasses that has a strong power curve, since you keep gaining runes (and thus additional options), and gain double useage at 15.

Simple rune knight seems better during almost all the levels in most situations.

[adb82]

I really don't see that much added value in multiclassing out of Rune Knight, if you want to grapple. You already got the enlargment (so you can grapple huge creatures) and advantage on athletics checks, both with giant might, and you get extra ASI's with which you can get expertise in grapple. With proficiency, expertise, advantage and maxed out str you should win every grappling context, but if needed you can even use the storm rune to give the opponent disadvantage.

The only thing that bard gives you is enlarge (so you can grapple gargantual before level 18, where Rune Knight allows you to become huge). But how often is this a thing, and how high is the chance somebody in your party can simply cast this if this is the best course of action? The bonusses on grapple that lore bard gives aren't needed at this point, and the opportunity cost is high. You need a moderately high charisma to be able to multiclass, and probably 14 at least since else bardic inspiration is wasted. You gain fewer (and later) ASI's, have less hp, have worse saves. Rune knight is also one of the fighter subclasses that has a strong power curve, since you keep gaining runes (and thus additional options), and gain double useage at 15.

Simple rune knight seems better during almost all the levels in most situations.

Thats good to know, as its my first time to play a grappler so i though getting huge was kinda a must, but also for bg would be much better if it can stay pure rune knight, the best for thematic reasons would be mix the rune knight with forge cleric as he will be a crafter of many objects and magic weapons and armors, but i honestly cant figure out how to sinergize the 2 classes well.

Any idea about how to make work a rune knight/forge cleric? Bcs to my eyes seem dont work well mechanically unluckly.

Which fighting style/feat route do you think work better for a pure RK anyway?

[Dalinar]

Thats good to know, as its my first time to play a grappler so i though getting huge was kinda a must, but also for bg would be much better if it can stay pure rune knight, the best for thematic reasons would be mix the rune knight with forge cleric as he will be a crafter of many objects and magic weapons and armors, but i honestly cant figure out how to sinergize the 2 classes well.

Any idea about how to make work a rune knight/forge cleric? Bcs to my eyes seem dont work well mechanically unluckly.

Getting Huge is only important to grapple the kinds of creatures you probably won't be facing until you are a high enough level to have the Rune Knight capstone that turns you Huge. Talk with your DM about whether you're likely to face Gargantuan creatures before then, and choose accordingly. RK 3 / Lore X might actually be the play in this case, provided you can grapple somebody with one hand and cast spells with the other (which I'm pretty sure you can but feel free to contradict me), and RK only improves your grappling at 3 and 18 anyway.

As for the forge cleric idea, you would also get a similar playstyle concept by going artificer instead; that doesn't particularly solve the problem of being MAD, and there's some pretty redundant stuff (bonus action clog, two sources of Extra Attack not stacking), but it might give you ideas!

That said, if you are grappling with the goal of tanking, then an Armorer could grapple somebody with one hand (possibly grapple a second target if you're a Loxodon or Simic Hybrid or something), then either pick Guardian and punch someone else so they have disadvantage while attacking not-you (and grant yourself temp HP with your bonus action, whenever you get a free one anyway), or pick Infiltrator because that weapon appears to be hands-free (?) so you could grapple an extra target and zap somebody else at range. And you get Enlarge/Reduce at Artificer 5! Maybe Armorer 5 / Rune Knight 3 / X?

[adb82]

Getting Huge is only important to grapple the kinds of creatures you probably won't be facing until you are a high enough level to have the Rune Knight capstone that turns you Huge. Talk with your DM about whether you're likely to face Gargantuan creatures before then, and choose accordingly. RK 3 / Lore X might actually be the play in this case, provided you can grapple somebody with one hand and cast spells with the other (which I'm pretty sure you can but feel free to contradict me), and RK only improves your grappling at 3 and 18 anyway.

As for the forge cleric idea, you would also get a similar playstyle concept by going artificer instead; that doesn't particularly solve the problem of being MAD, and there's some pretty redundant stuff (bonus action clog, two sources of Extra Attack not stacking), but it might give you ideas!

That said, if you are grappling with the goal of tanking, then an Armorer could grapple somebody with one hand (possibly grapple a second target if you're a Loxodon or Simic Hybrid or something), then either pick Guardian and punch someone else so they have disadvantage while attacking not-you (and grant yourself temp HP with your bonus action, whenever you get a free one anyway), or pick Infiltrator because that weapon appears to be hands-free (?) so you could grapple an extra target and zap somebody else at range. And you get Enlarge/Reduce at Artificer 5! Maybe Armorer 5 / Rune Knight 3 / X?

The one artificer allowed from my dm is the alchimist, if im not wrong this wont work with alchimist isnt it?

[Dalinar]

The one artificer allowed from my dm is the alchimist, if im not wrong this wont work with alchimist isnt it?

Your DM is very strange for banning three out of four subclasses but not the class as a whole. Is it a setting thing? Like, I'd get thinking the artificer doesn't match a low-tech setting, or not wanting it because they're one of those people that doesn't use Tasha's, but just allowing Alchemist? I'm confused by this choice. Do you know why? I'm curious. Are they the sort of DM that would work with you on this if you really had a character concept in mind?

That said, yeah, I'm referring to the Armorer subclass. I don't see any way that Alchemist would benefit a grappler build, aside from some minor mostly-unrelated buffs from Experimental Elixir. (Also, speaking of Tasha's, Bards get Enlarge/Reduce as a regular spell in that book, no Magical Secrets required.)

[adb82]

Your DM is very strange for banning three out of four subclasses but not the class as a whole. Is it a setting thing? Like, I'd get thinking the artificer doesn't match a low-tech setting, or not wanting it because they're one of those people that doesn't use Tasha's, but just allowing Alchemist? I'm confused by this choice. Do you know why? I'm curious. Are they the sort of DM that would work with you on this if you really had a character concept in mind?

That said, yeah, I'm referring to the Armorer subclass. I don't see any way that Alchemist would benefit a grappler build, aside from some minor mostly-unrelated buffs from Experimental Elixir. (Also, speaking of Tasha's, Bards get Enlarge/Reduce as a regular spell in that book, no Magical Secrets required.)

Its about technology i suppose and about the world concept.
But anyway it mean artificer cant work for me :P

I think i have only the pure rune knight or the rune knight/forge cleric options for build this kind of character.

And about grappling in general? Better 2 free hands with tavern brawler and defense fighting style? or shield master and unarmed fighting style?

[stoutstien]

I think i have only the pure rune knight or the rune knight/forge cleric options for build this kind of character.

And about grappling in general? Better 2 free hands with tavern brawler and defense fighting style? or shield master and unarmed fighting style?

I would be wary of too much feat investment into things that need a lot of action economy. The RK is stacked with action options.

Grappling is a great tactic to have but it doesn't really need a bunch of investment to shine. RK checks all the boxes already for being great at it so I wouldn't worry about sinking a FS and/or a feat into it a well unless it's for thematically reasons. Special exception for skill expert for stupid high str check values if you want to never fail a grapple shove. Half feat to boot.

[adb82]

I would be wary of too much feat investment into things that need a lot of action economy. The RK is stacked with action options.

Grappling is a great tactic to have but it doesn't really need a bunch of investment to shine. RK checks all the boxes already for being great at it so I wouldn't worry about sinking a FS and/or a feat into it a well unless it's for thematically reasons. Special exception for skill expert for stupid high str check values if you want to never fail a grapple shove. Half feat to boot.

Well, actually the forge cleric idea is about thematic reasons, as i said i would like to play this character like an arcane blacksmith/forger discendent from the giants. Its not mandatory to be a grappler honestly, but i would like to build a character around this concept, better if mechanically grappler.

[stoutstien]

Well, actually the forge cleric idea is about thematic reasons, as i said i would like to play this character like an arcane blacksmith/forger discendent from the giants. Its not mandatory to be a grappler honestly, but i would like to build a character around this concept, better if mechanically grappler.

Least painful time for a 1-2 lv cleric dip would be after level 7. Extra attack is a big game changer so any delay hurts and 7 is both an extra rune, rune shield, and unlocks hill/storm options...mostly storm. Alternatively you could mix it up asap but of all the fighter subclasses the RK and samurai really have good reasons to get those fighter levels sooner rather than later.

[Dalinar]

Alright, having thought about it more, I think I'll take a crack at this. It's not Forge Cleric, but I have another cool idea that'll hopefully hit close enough for ya!

Assumptions:

We will need Huge size to come online before RK normally gets it
We want a character capable of both crafting things and grappling
No artificers due to setting, but Tasha's content otherwise allowed


Tactical considerations:

We want to grapple things (high STR, Athletics Expertise)
We want to survive grappling things (high CON/AC/saves as possible)
We want to prevent damage to our party members whilst grappling things (grappling itself is a means to this end, but other stuff would make it even better)
We want to make ourselves otherwise useful against things we can't grapple


OK, so here's what I've got:

Race: Custom Lineage or Variant Human. If neither of those are allowed at your table, I guess the next best might be Hill Dwarf or Half-Elf, since we're slightly MAD. Simic Hybrid and Loxodon are also good picks since we're grappling a lot.

Stats: Maximum STR possible, at least 14 CHA, rest to taste but CON/WIS will both help you a lot defensively

Level 1 Feat: Skill Expert (Athletics) if you're CL, giving you +8 to Athletics at level 1. (We'll pick up Expertise from Bard 3 eventually, but we don't want to delay it that long.) If VHuman, you probably still want Skill Expert, although you can't achieve a +4 STR modifier yet. I'll assume you have CL.

Additional useful feats: Max out your STR, and grab more stuff to protect Concentration: +2 CON, War Caster, Eldritch Adept (Eldritch Mind), Lucky (though OP's DM banned it, it'd work well here), or anything else you can come up with. Resilient (WIS) is probably also a good idea. Tough or Heavy Armor Master will increase your survivability versus things you grapple.

Final Classes: Rune Knight 3 / Creation Bard X. You can take more RK levels if you want more ASIs, Extra Attack, and other goodies, but you'll delay Bard progression which may not be worth it to you.

We start Fighter to get CON save proficiency and heavy armor, then Action Surge is too good to delay, then RK 3 is also too good to delay. Technically a raging Barbarian beats us at grappling for the first two levels, but that messes up what we were planning to do down the line, and they don't have easy access to a size increase. For runes, definitely grab Frost because that's +2 more to our strength checks and therefore grappling checks; Cloud Rune will help us protect our allies, so I'd grab that for our other one. Fighting styles are a bit weird for this build, as we become a grappler first and a caster later, but maybe Defense?

First two Bard levels don't get us a whole lot that's immediately relevant, but Bard 3 is important for two reasons: first, we get Enlarge/Reduce, another source of size increase that'll help us when Giant's Might is down or if/when we ever fight something Gargantuan; second, we get Performance of Creation, which with a little reflavoring/imagination gives us the crafting we're looking for. I like to imagine our particular Bard grabs random odds and ends lying around and they sort of magically combine into whatever random thing we need (also works for costly material components for any spells you might want to pick up that have them). Plus, Creation gives a buff to our Bardic Inspiration at this level, which among other things grants allies temp HP if they use it for a saving throw. Neat!

We'll continue into Bard here, though like I said above grabbing more Fighter levels isn't bad either. I think Bard will do us more good, though.

At 7, we finally get another feat, which I've described already. I'd probably max your STR here, unless you're finding survivability or concentration to be a problem.

8 gets us third-level Bard spells like Hypnotic Pattern as well as a bigger BI die. Neat!

9 is where things get interesting, though. Given a little setup time, you can now use Performance of Creation to create a Large item such as a statue, use our new ability Animating Performance to turn it into a construct, and use a bonus action to command it to grapple things for us! It's got a +4 STR, but unfortunately no skill proficiencies. It can also body-block for our squishy allies if need be, attack things for us, stuff like that.

10 is fourth-level spellcasting, 11 is another ASI, 12 is fifth-level spellcasting, 13 is our first instance of Magical Secrets, 14 is sixth-level spellcasting, 15 is an ASI, 16 is seventh-level spellcasting. No real comments here. I plead ignorance on what a mid-level Bard should be doing with all that, besides the feat choices I already mentioned. Not my area of expertise (pun absolutely intended, as you'll have several of those by now).

17 is Creation 14, which removes the gp limit on material components AND lets us pick up Simulacrum via Magical Secrets, which is an extremely powerful combination to have at your disposal.

Pros: maxed-out grappling stats, reasonably good CON and AC depending on our choices with stats and feats (it occurs to me that War Caster lets us grapple in one hand, wield a shield in the other, and still cast spells), we protect our party via Creation's BI buff and a pet animated object that's also a half-decent grappler and Cloud Rune etc etc, we still get decent Bard spellcasting eventually, we have expertise in a bunch of things. We also grapple Gargantuan things way earlier than a Rune Knight can, if that's a concern of yours. Lots of short-rest resources: Action Surge at 2, runes at 3, BI becomes short rest at 8. Your Warlock allies will love you for that.

Cons: this is not a DPR build. If you want a DPR grappler, take a look at the various Spike Growth/high-movement combos out there. Performance of Creation is not technically "crafting" per se, but conjuration. Our hit dice are mostly d8s, so a little less max HP than a straight Fighter (you can make up for it by casting Aid though). Most importantly, your bonus action is *very* busy.

Whaddya think?

[adb82]

Alright, having thought about it more, I think I'll take a crack at this. It's not Forge Cleric, but I have another cool idea that'll hopefully hit close enough for ya!

Assumptions:

We will need Huge size to come online before RK normally gets it
We want a character capable of both crafting things and grappling
No artificers due to setting, but Tasha's content otherwise allowed


Tactical considerations:

We want to grapple things (high STR, Athletics Expertise)
We want to survive grappling things (high CON/AC/saves as possible)
We want to prevent damage to our party members whilst grappling things (grappling itself is a means to this end, but other stuff would make it even better)
We want to make ourselves otherwise useful against things we can't grapple


OK, so here's what I've got:

Race: Custom Lineage or Variant Human. If neither of those are allowed at your table, I guess the next best might be Hill Dwarf or Half-Elf, since we're slightly MAD. Simic Hybrid and Loxodon are also good picks since we're grappling a lot.

Stats: Maximum STR possible, at least 14 CHA, rest to taste but CON/WIS will both help you a lot defensively

Level 1 Feat: Skill Expert (Athletics) if you're CL, giving you +8 to Athletics at level 1. (We'll pick up Expertise from Bard 3 eventually, but we don't want to delay it that long.) If VHuman, you probably still want Skill Expert, although you can't achieve a +4 STR modifier yet. I'll assume you have CL.

Additional useful feats: Max out your STR, and grab more stuff to protect Concentration: +2 CON, War Caster, Eldritch Adept (Eldritch Mind), Lucky (though OP's DM banned it, it'd work well here), or anything else you can come up with. Resilient (WIS) is probably also a good idea. Tough or Heavy Armor Master will increase your survivability versus things you grapple.

Final Classes: Rune Knight 3 / Creation Bard X. You can take more RK levels if you want more ASIs, Extra Attack, and other goodies, but you'll delay Bard progression which may not be worth it to you.

We start Fighter to get CON save proficiency and heavy armor, then Action Surge is too good to delay, then RK 3 is also too good to delay. Technically a raging Barbarian beats us at grappling for the first two levels, but that messes up what we were planning to do down the line, and they don't have easy access to a size increase. For runes, definitely grab Frost because that's +2 more to our strength checks and therefore grappling checks; Cloud Rune will help us protect our allies, so I'd grab that for our other one. Fighting styles are a bit weird for this build, as we become a grappler first and a caster later, but maybe Defense?

First two Bard levels don't get us a whole lot that's immediately relevant, but Bard 3 is important for two reasons: first, we get Enlarge/Reduce, another source of size increase that'll help us when Giant's Might is down or if/when we ever fight something Gargantuan; second, we get Performance of Creation, which with a little reflavoring/imagination gives us the crafting we're looking for. I like to imagine our particular Bard grabs random odds and ends lying around and they sort of magically combine into whatever random thing we need (also works for costly material components for any spells you might want to pick up that have them). Plus, Creation gives a buff to our Bardic Inspiration at this level, which among other things grants allies temp HP if they use it for a saving throw. Neat!

We'll continue into Bard here, though like I said above grabbing more Fighter levels isn't bad either. I think Bard will do us more good, though.

At 7, we finally get another feat, which I've described already. I'd probably max your STR here, unless you're finding survivability or concentration to be a problem.

8 gets us third-level Bard spells like Hypnotic Pattern as well as a bigger BI die. Neat!

9 is where things get interesting, though. Given a little setup time, you can now use Performance of Creation to create a Large item such as a statue, use our new ability Animating Performance to turn it into a construct, and use a bonus action to command it to grapple things for us! It's got a +4 STR, but unfortunately no skill proficiencies. It can also body-block for our squishy allies if need be, attack things for us, stuff like that.

10 is fourth-level spellcasting, 11 is another ASI, 12 is fifth-level spellcasting, 13 is our first instance of Magical Secrets, 14 is sixth-level spellcasting, 15 is an ASI, 16 is seventh-level spellcasting. No real comments here. I plead ignorance on what a mid-level Bard should be doing with all that, besides the feat choices I already mentioned. Not my area of expertise (pun absolutely intended, as you'll have several of those by now).

17 is Creation 14, which removes the gp limit on material components AND lets us pick up Simulacrum via Magical Secrets, which is an extremely powerful combination to have at your disposal.

Pros: maxed-out grappling stats, reasonably good CON and AC depending on our choices with stats and feats (it occurs to me that War Caster lets us grapple in one hand, wield a shield in the other, and still cast spells), we protect our party via Creation's BI buff and a pet animated object that's also a half-decent grappler and Cloud Rune etc etc, we still get decent Bard spellcasting eventually, we have expertise in a bunch of things. We also grapple Gargantuan things way earlier than a Rune Knight can, if that's a concern of yours. Lots of short-rest resources: Action Surge at 2, runes at 3, BI becomes short rest at 8. Your Warlock allies will love you for that.

Cons: this is not a DPR build. If you want a DPR grappler, take a look at the various Spike Growth/high-movement combos out there. Performance of Creation is not technically "crafting" per se, but conjuration. Our hit dice are mostly d8s, so a little less max HP than a straight Fighter (you can make up for it by casting Aid though). Most importantly, your bonus action is *very* busy.

Whaddya think?

This seem really intersting than you, i think ill give it a try. :)

[HPisBS]

We will need Huge size to come online before RK normally gets it
We want a character capable of both crafting things and grappling
No artificers due to setting, but Tasha's content otherwise allowed
[/LIST]

Tactical considerations:

We want to grapple things (high STR, Athletics Expertise)
We want to survive grappling things (high CON/AC/saves as possible)
We want to prevent damage to our party members whilst grappling things (grappling itself is a means to this end, but other stuff would make it even better)
We want to make ourselves otherwise useful against things we can't grapple


-snip- Bard -snip-

An interesting take, but if the focus is on being a descendent of giants who likes to grapple (while stacking Enlarged on top of Giant's Might?) and forge stuff, then I'd go one of two ways:

Either Duergar for racial Enlarge/Reduce and smith's, brewers, and mason's tools (and eventually becoming a dwarf that's almost as tall as a human at lvl 10)
- or -
Goliath to be extra tall, and for racial athletics, Powerful Build, and Giant language while grabbing smith's tools from a background like Guild Artisan, Clan Crafter, or Uthgardt Tribe Member.

From there, I'd probably either dip Barbarian for advantage on Str checks and b/p/s resistance while Raging (Rage would interfere with your Enlarge/Reduce, but not your runes), or just be a pure Fighter and use one of your extra ASIs to grab Skill Expert: Athletics.
[Edit: I guess if you really wanted to maximize your grappling / shoving, you could do both.]

Otherwise, I'd just rely on an allied Sorcerer or Wizard to stack Enlarge on top of my Giant's Might. (If you can find a Ring of Spell Storing, you could effectively become the caster, even if you aren't actually the caster. Big if, though.) And always carry a Fire Rune to be an expert craftsman, of course.


Like this, you'd be a (almost?) pure Fighter, thus able to max Str and Con as well as your preferred feats. Aside from the obvious benefits for any frontliner, that'd also get max out your runes' DCs - which are mostly used with your bonus actions / reactions.

Focusing on Bard or other full caster levels doesn't really mesh with being a frontliner all that well, in part because you'd necessarily take a lot of hits there (and therefore lose Concentration pretty often). Plus, it'd be kind of a waste to invest so much in casting when your main goal for the character is to play up the huge grappler angle. And Bardic Inspiration would compete with various runes for your bonus action.