Polishing a stupid build: Bladesinger/Monk

[Grod_The_Giant]

Inspired by BerserkerUnit's post in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24985482&postcount=3), and my need to roll up a replacement character for a Ghosts or Saltmarsh game, I had a terrible, terrible idea:

For a true "sword saint," wandering mystic martial artist swordsman type, why not be a Bladesinger... with a one-level Monk dip?

Normally the sheer MADness would sent me running for cover, but in this particular case my GM has a very generous stat rolling method and I wound up with 18, 17, 15, 13, 9, 7. I'd be starting at level 8, and adding in a free feat at 1st level, a rare magic item, and 700 gold to spend expanding my spellbook, I figured "maybe this can work."

Playing a vHuman and dropping my one available ASI into stats gives me Str 9, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 9. Taking Tough as my racial feat leaves me with a passable 64 hit points, and using my free starting feat on War Caster is a no-brainer for a gish. For a magic item, I decided to be boring and grab some Bracers of Armor to bring me up to a base AC of 20, which can get as high as 29 with Bladesong and Shield. Absorb Elements and Counterspell should help with anything that doesn't target AC, and with three attacks a turn I think Spirit Shroud might just beat out Haste for my bread-and-butter damage boost.

Am I missing anything? Major weaknesses I'm not noticing, useful additions I neglected?

[x3n0n]

Inspired by BerserkerUnit's post in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24985482&postcount=3), and my need to roll up a replacement character for a Ghosts or Saltmarsh game, I had a terrible, terrible idea:

For a true "sword saint," wandering mystic martial artist swordsman type, why not be a Bladesinger... with a one-level Monk dip?

Normally the sheer MADness would sent me running for cover, but in this particular case my GM has a very generous stat rolling method and I wound up with 18, 17, 15, 13, 9, 7. I'd be starting at level 8, and adding in a free feat at 1st level, a rare magic item, and 700 gold to spend expanding my spellbook, I figured "maybe this can work."

Playing a vHuman and dropping my one available ASI into stats gives me Str 9, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 9. Taking Tough as my racial feat leaves me with a passable 64 hit points, and using my free starting feat on War Caster is a no-brainer for a gish. For a magic item, I decided to be boring and grab some Bracers of Armor to bring me up to a base AC of 20, which can get as high as 29 with Bladesong and Shield. Absorb Elements and Counterspell should help with anything that doesn't target AC, and with three attacks a turn I think Spirit Shroud might just beat out Haste for my bread-and-butter damage boost.

Am I missing anything? Major weaknesses I'm not noticing, useful additions I neglected?

With only one level of Monk, you get unarmored defense equal to a casting of Mage Armor and a bonus action d4 attack if you only wield monk weapons. I love Monks, but I'm not seeing much mechanical value here that you wouldn't get by wielding two shortswords, especially if you're counting on Spirit Shroud rider damage for a significant portion of your DPR (helping make up for the missing damage on TWF). Then you could switch Wis and Con for even more HP and better Con saves.

If you stick with Monk and a single monk weapon (shortsword?), you might get more value out of Resilient: Con than War Caster (always a free hand for semantic components, not clear how many OAs you'll be making with such a busy reaction); you might even be able to wrangle the half-ASI into a 16 Con.

[Witty Username]

I concur that one level in monk doesn't seem to offer much for the build.

Without the bracers wearing studded leather you will have AC 17 with bracers and mage armor AC 20, so your armor is pretty fine without monk. And I am not sure the bonus action attack is worth the delay in spell progression.
Not to mention you could put your con to 16 and have a nice pile of extra HP. Assuming you are comfortable with a Wis 14 for the character.

edit: Something you could consider instead, 2-3 levels in rogue (swashbuckler). the bonus action dash/disengage will get you that nice movement options and expertise in Athletics or Acrobatics could give you some nice wuxia potential, if you can get to 3rd level the swashbuckler applying sneak attack in duels will add some nice damage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

With only one level of Monk, you get unarmored defense equal to a casting of Mage Armor and a bonus action d4 attack if you only wield monk weapons. I love Monks, but I'm not seeing much mechanical value here that you wouldn't get by wielding two shortswords, especially if you're counting on Spirit Shroud rider damage for a significant portion of your DPR (helping make up for the missing damage on TWF). Then you could switch Wis and Con for even more HP and better Con saves.

If you stick with Monk and a single monk weapon (shortsword?), you might get more value out of Resilient: Con than War Caster (always a free hand for semantic components, not clear how many OAs you'll be making with such a busy reaction); you might even be able to wrangle the half-ASI into a 16 Con.
Being able to do unarmed kung-fu is useful, but the main reason for the Monk dip is to make one sword/one empty hand work-- TWF can be hard to juggle on a caster, and I really just like the visual better.

(And I figured that next level I'll put my ASI into Wisdom)

[Dork_Forge]

With only one level of Monk, you get unarmored defense equal to a casting of Mage Armor and a bonus action d4 attack if you only wield monk weapons. I love Monks, but I'm not seeing much mechanical value here that you wouldn't get by wielding two shortswords, especially if you're counting on Spirit Shroud rider damage for a significant portion of your DPR (helping make up for the missing damage on TWF). Then you could switch Wis and Con for even more HP and better Con saves.

If you stick with Monk and a single monk weapon (shortsword?), you might get more value out of Resilient: Con than War Caster (always a free hand for semantic components, not clear how many OAs you'll be making with such a busy reaction); you might even be able to wrangle the half-ASI into a 16 Con.

There's still a mechanical edge to getting a level of Monk in there:

-The martial arts attack is +4 damage a round over using two short swords without the style

-Mage Armor would amount to the same AC, but unarmored defense frees up a spell prepared/in your book, 1-2 slots a day (that can then be used for Shield) and means that you can't be caught without MA cast, have it dispelled, or care about an AMF

-Taking Monk 1st level would help with the hp situation, though I'm sure most would value the Wis prof over Dex saves and +2hp (personally I'd go Monk 1st, the high Wis compensates for the lack of prof)

It sets your casting back, but I'd probably go for Bladesinger 6/Monk 2 to grab unarmored movement and Ki.

[x3n0n]

Being able to do unarmed kung-fu is useful, but the main reason for the Monk dip is to make one sword/one empty hand work-- TWF can be hard to juggle on a caster, and I really just like the visual better.

(And I figured that next level I'll put my ASI into Wisdom)

If you're keeping an empty hand for S components anyway, I would definitely consider Res: Con over War Caster and rejiggering numbers for a 16 Con. That's even more HP and guaranteed success on DC 10 concentration saves while singing (and +7 starting next level) vs the ability to use spells for opportunity attacks, and I think I'd take that trade.

If you were TWFing instead of Monk, I'd stick with War Caster, which would fix the fiddly bits with S components.

(If your DM is a stickler for details, note that only simple weapons and shortswords are candidates for Martial Arts: no rapier.)

Have fun!

Edit to add:


There's still a mechanical edge to getting a level of Monk in there:

-The martial arts attack is +4 damage a round over using two short swords without the style

-Mage Armor would amount to the same AC, but unarmored defense frees up a spell prepared/in your book, 1-2 slots a day (that can then be used for Shield) and means that you can't be caught without MA cast, have it dispelled, or care about an AMF

-Taking Monk 1st level would help with the hp situation, though I'm sure most would value the Wis prof over Dex saves and +2hp (personally I'd go Monk 1st, the high Wis compensates for the lack of prof)

It sets your casting back, but I'd probably go for Bladesinger 6/Monk 2 to grab unarmored movement and Ki.

IMO, the arguments you made for Monk 1, while all true, don't outweigh the advantages of Monk 0 in this case.

(On percent basis, the damage is very close and gets closer the more damage riders you add and as your hit likelihood drops; an extra level of Wizard is an extra spell prepared and two more known anyway (although getting caught with your pants down is a real thing); you get significantly more HP from taking Con over Wis.)

I do agree with your conclusion, though: Wizard 6/Monk 2 is significantly more appealing to me than W7/M1. That also opens up Dedicated Weapon to have a 1-handed d8 while still using Martial Arts, in addition to the points you mentioned.

I think the arguments for taking an initial split (among the 8 character levels) with 0, 2, 5, 6, or 8 levels of Monk are all mechanically stronger than taking 1 level of Monk.

(On a class with neither Mage Armor nor unrestricted medium armor proficiency, I think there's a good argument for 1 level of Monk. Druid is the obvious one for Wild Shape, but there's also a fine tradition of Monk/Rogues, even though the unarmed strikes and non-finesse monk weapons aren't candidates for Sneak Attack.)

[LudicSavant]

Inspired by BerserkerUnit's post in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24985482&postcount=3), and my need to roll up a replacement character for a Ghosts or Saltmarsh game, I had a terrible, terrible idea:

For a true "sword saint," wandering mystic martial artist swordsman type, why not be a Bladesinger... with a one-level Monk dip?

Normally the sheer MADness would sent me running for cover, but in this particular case my GM has a very generous stat rolling method and I wound up with 18, 17, 15, 13, 9, 7. I'd be starting at level 8, and adding in a free feat at 1st level, a rare magic item, and 700 gold to spend expanding my spellbook, I figured "maybe this can work."

Playing a vHuman and dropping my one available ASI into stats gives me Str 9, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 9. Taking Tough as my racial feat leaves me with a passable 64 hit points, and using my free starting feat on War Caster is a no-brainer for a gish. For a magic item, I decided to be boring and grab some Bracers of Armor to bring me up to a base AC of 20, which can get as high as 29 with Bladesong and Shield. Absorb Elements and Counterspell should help with anything that doesn't target AC, and with three attacks a turn I think Spirit Shroud might just beat out Haste for my bread-and-butter damage boost.

Am I missing anything? Major weaknesses I'm not noticing, useful additions I neglected?

I'm not sure what the point of the Monk dip is here. It seems to offer less for what you're trying to do than just adding another Bladesinger level.

"Saving a slot on Mage Armor" is irrelevant when multiclassing is straight up devouring casting progression.

[stoutstien]

I would say drop the monk level or go at least 2 if not 3 into monk. Even just for ba dodge 1-2 times a SR I think the investment will pan out better than the single level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The GM okayed me taking Agile Fistfighter* from my Guide to Greatness, which pretty much puts the nail in the coffin on the Monk level. Thanks, guys!


*The feat gives you an unarmored AC of 13+Dex, and turns your unarmed strikes into 1d4 light finesse weapons)

[CTurbo]

Half-Elf TWF Swords Bard with the Agile Fistfighter feat!

20 Dex and Cha. Take Spirit Shroud and whatever else you want at level 10.

Bracers of Defense is a solid item for this either way.


I think a couple levels of Bladesinger is great on a Monk with decent to high rolled stats, but I couldn't recommend some Monk levels for a Bladesinger unless you were going to start with 20 Dex and Wis somehow. I'll take a level of Monk on a Druid though lol.

I'd rather start with a single level Fighter for TWF and Con saves personally.

[Omni-Centrist]

The way I always build mine is: custom Lineage for +2 Dex, 8/14/14/14/13/8 point buy, start with Fighting Initiative feat for Unarmed fighting style (d8 damage die). Starting at Level 3, you have 16 ac, 18 with BS active, and can increase your ac to 23 on reaction via shield. Not to mention putting out 2d8 + 6 per round while expending minimum resources.

Eventually at Level 7 you will hit for 4d8 + Dex Mod x3 (plus a d8 + 4 with haste). With your stats you can take full advantage of this build for high AC.