True Polymorph + Shapechange interaction

[OgataiKhan]

I stumbled upon an interesting interaction. What happens if:

1) Wizard A casts Shapechange and turns into a Bugbear

2) Wizard B casts True Polymorph to turn into Wizard A's current form?

Will Wizard B be a Bugbear with Wizard A's class features?

[noob]

I stumbled upon an interesting interaction. What happens if:

1) Wizard A casts Shapechange and turns into a Bugbear

2) Wizard B casts True Polymorph to turn into Wizard A's current form?

Will Wizard B be a Bugbear with Wizard A's class features?

Yes and under the effect of shapechange since being under the effect of a spell is a game stat so it also means the bugbear shape will eventually fade with the shapechange spell that is copied due to

The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form. It retains its Alignment and Personality.

Since what a characters remembers are also game stats(since they are information and values within the game) and not part of the personality then wizard b forgets what it knew and instead knows what wizard a knows(so if wizard b had a children then wizard b would stop remembering that children).
Also if wizard b was an object wizard b will lose control of itself if it channels true polymorph long enough to make it permanent but wizard b might be friendly to wizard b depending on how wizard b treated wizard b.


If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it.
So people never make true polymorph on yourself be permanent if you are an object initially.

[greenstone]

2) Wizard B casts True Polymorph to turn into Wizard A's current form?
I would rule that is not a valid form for true polymorph. Valid forms are things with a challenge rating, found in the "monster" sections of the various books.

Wizard B can turn into a bugbear (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/bugbear) or a mage (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/mage), but not into "that PC over there".

[noob]

I would rule that is not a valid form for true polymorph. Valid forms are things with a challenge rating, found in the "monster" sections of the various books.

Wizard B can turn into a bugbear (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/bugbear) or a mage (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/mage), but not into "that PC over there".

actually you can turn in "that pc over here" with a sufficiently tortured interpretation(the same interpretation prevents turning pcs into npcs):



Creature into Creature: If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose Challenge Rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a Challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form. It retains its Alignment and Personality.

The or its level could be a replacement to challenge rating in "whose challenge rating" with a sufficiently odd reading.
So the spell would work to turn a pc in a pc or a npc in a npc but not a pc to an npc nor a npc to a pc with that alternate reading.
So no turning the party barbarian in a trex but you can turn the party barbarian in yourself.
That tortured interpretation have a sense if it is some sort of "the quality of being a leveled or cred creature can not be changed" interpretation: being a pc or npc would be a trait like alignment: one that the spell can not change.

This tortured interpretation have the huge advantage of fixing a major issue a cred creature does not behave like an adventurer in the rules: for example beating it gives xp and the experience it gets from beating things simply is not defined so now you no longer have to create a rule to handle this case that is either "no you can not gain xp while true polymorphed in a cred creature" or "you gain xp as if you were of your former level while you are a cred creature" or yet another rule that is not in the manuals.

[OgataiKhan]

Yes and under the effect of shapechange since being under the effect of a spell is a game stat so it also means the bugbear shape will eventually fade with the shapechange spell that is copied due to


Since what a characters remembers are also game stats(since they are information and values within the game) and not part of the personality then wizard b forgets what it knew and instead knows what wizard a knows(so if wizard b had a children then wizard b would stop remembering that children).
Also if wizard b was an object wizard b will lose control of itself if it channels true polymorph long enough to make it permanent but wizard b might be friendly to wizard b depending on how wizard b treated wizard b.

So people never make true polymorph on yourself be permanent if you are an object initially.

Do you have a source for being under the effect of a spell and memories being game statistics? I'm not really sure that's the case.


I would rule that is not a valid form for true polymorph. Valid forms are things with a challenge rating, found in the "monster" sections of the various books.

Wizard B can turn into a bugbear (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/bugbear) or a mage (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/mage), but not into "that PC over there".


In this example Wizard A does have a CR as a result of turning into a Bugbear.

[Valmark]

Imo it doesn't work. True Polymorph would make you turn into a bugbear, not into a wizard Shapechanged into a bugbear.

Ultimately it depends on how the DM considers what is "a kind of creature".

[noob]

Do you have a source for being under the effect of a spell and memories being game statistics? I'm not really sure that's the case.




In this example Wizard A does have a CR as a result of turning into a Bugbear.
My interpretation is the following:
Game statistic means a statistic that influence how the game is played.

The only source I have for this is that true polymorph specifies the target keeps its personality suggesting that otherwise it is a game statistic.
I assume the personality of a character is part of the game statistics because when it changes the way you play the character changes hence why true polymorph specifies you keep the same personality: if personality was not part of game statistics then the spell would not need to specify you keep the same personality.
The memories of a character are thus logically game statistics too because they too change how you play the character: if your character suddenly knew the location of the prison where its child was trapped then you would probably try to find a way for your character to recover its child and if the character did forget it even if you still knew it you would not metagame and thus not make your character go to that prison.
Likewise the spells the character is under currently changes how you play the game (for example if your character is buffed beyond reason you might play more offensively)