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Nowhere Girl
2007-11-10, 02:25 AM
So I've been doing some research, and I realized, to my own surprise, that I actually have no idea just how, exactly, the Hide skill is supposed to work while attacking. I thought I did, but now I think I was wrong.

Some believe you can do a full attack while remaining hidden (with the most popular caveat being that you would have to make a Hide check, at of course a -20 penalty, after each and every attack). This crowd also frequently holds that Hide in Plain Sight would be required to accomplish it, even though I've never seen a convincing argument from them that it couldn't be done by anyone with the Hide skill using a ranged weapon from concealment or cover (since if each Hide check is successful, then clearly, you never become "observed").

Others believe you can only make one attack because hiding is either not an action (when moving already) or a move action if you attack.

So, what do the rest of you think? Can you make a full attack while hidden or not? And if you can, why in the world is HIPS a requirement to do it? Why wouldn't cover or concealment and just not failing any of those Hide checks (so that you never become "observed") be enough?

deadseashoals
2007-11-10, 02:32 AM
You can make one ranged attack, and then hide at a -20 penalty. That would be your round, and you don't need Hide in Plain Sight as long as you don't get caught.


Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.


Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

The rest is pretty vague.

Peregrine
2007-11-10, 02:35 AM
The second is correct, as far as I can tell.


Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

This absolutely rules out ranged full attacks, but is silent on melee. This leaves us with two possibilities:
1) Melee works exactly like ranged; it requires a move action to hide again, and thus precludes a full attack.
2) Hiding can be accomplished by moving, so anything that lets you move while attacking (even full-attacking, like a five-foot step) will let you make a Hide check in melee combat.

Since, but for the specific exception, ranged combat would also be under option 2, I think it's fair to rule that melee is also an exception and thus option 1 is correct.

Edit: Alternatively, given that 10ft. requirement for sniping... you could take that to mean that you cannot hide after attacking from closer than 10ft. (i.e. at 5ft, that is, adjacent). So full attacks are out in any case; the question is whether you can make any melee attacks and then hide. Maybe a reach attack?

"Oww! Hey! Who hit me with that glaive?!" :smalltongue:

Jack Zander
2007-11-10, 03:13 AM
Hmm... yes it appears that you cannot hide after making a melee attack. Makes sense too. If someone stabs you in the ankle, you know exactly where they stabbed you from, even if they are hiding under a table. With a sniper attack, you only get a single shot at them.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-10, 01:40 PM
Others believe you can only make one attack because hiding is either not an action (when moving already) or a move action if you attack. That's not what the skill description says:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Two of these are always full-round actions, and attacking can be part of a full-round action. There's no move action permitted with a full-round action, thus it's ridiculous to maintain that a move action is required to Hide if you attack. Since the rules do permit hiding while attacking, running or charging, the rules can't require a move action to Hide while doing so.

So, what do the rest of you think? Can you make a full attack while hidden or not? And if you can, why in the world is HIPS a requirement to do it? Why wouldn't cover or concealment and just not failing any of those Hide checks (so that you never become "observed") be enough? You can make a full attack while hidden if you meet all the requirements:
not being observed, or Hide in Plain Sight
cover/concealment/camouflage in natural terrain/the supernatural version of HiPS near shadow(s)
you take the appropriate penalties: -20 (normally), or - the distance moved in feet if you were already hidden and using the Move between Cover rule (Complete Adventurer)
Your Hide check still beats the opposed Spot check, repeated on each attack.
This is difficult, but not impossible, without HiPS. You'd need to start out visually undetectable, and win your opposed check on every swing. If you're using concealment to meet the requirement to Hide, that concealment generally makes it tougher to hit your opponent. The Ranger's HiPS in natural terrain, or the Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS near shadows, will make it possible to Hide without concealment, and thus there won't be a 20% or 50% miss chance. Also Rogues often have good Hide modifiers, but won't want to rely on concealment because that prevents them from using sneak attack; thus a one-level dip into Shadowdancer to get HiPS is very useful.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-10, 01:46 PM
This is difficult, but not impossible, without HiPS. You'd need to start out visually undetectable, and win your opposed check on every swing. If you're using concealment to meet the requirement to Hide, that concealment generally makes it tougher to hit your opponent. The Ranger's HiPS in natural terrain, or the Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS near shadows, will make it possible to Hide without concealment, and thus there won't be a 20% or 50% miss chance. Also Rogues often have good Hide modifiers, but won't want to rely on concealment because that prevents them from using sneak attack; thus a one-level dip into Shadowdancer to get HiPS is very useful.

Aha. Using that interpretation of the rules, there's another reason to love Improved Precise Shot (negates miss chances for anything less than total concealment, so there you go -- sneak attack away while still concealed). :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2007-11-10, 02:10 PM
Aha. Using that interpretation of the rules, there's another reason to love Improved Precise Shot (negates miss chances for anything less than total concealment, so there you go -- sneak attack away while still concealed). :smallwink: Not in a melee full attack, though; Improved Precise Shot only applies to ranged attacks. And it takes some doing to qualify for the feat, too: Dex 19 and BAB +11 (level 15 for a Rogue).

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-10, 02:25 PM
Not in a melee full attack, though; Improved Precise Shot only applies to ranged attacks. And it takes some doing to qualify for the feat, too: Dex 19 and BAB +11 (level 15 for a Rogue).

Well, yes, that's what I meant. :smallwink: It's a really good feat in its own right, though, even without just using it to do full attacks from hiding. Especially for someone who wants to do sneak attacks. Especially if you have a wizard who likes to drop battlefield control spells.

"Sure, drop some fog. I'll use it as concealment and sneak attack because I ignore concealment miss chances!" :smallbiggrin:

Oh wait. That's by level 15. The wizard's just winning alone by then.

Nevermind. :smalleek: