What is up with power word pain?

[Elves]

So at 1st level this spell deals as much damage as 10 successive magic missiles in one spell at one action cost and the only difference is short vs medium range? What gives?

[H_H_F_F]

Duration matters. PWP is a great spell, one of the best level 1 spells there are, and it is kind of broken, but equating it to 10 magic missiles misses the mark IMO. PWP could kill something over 5 turns, in which said domething slays the entire party.

Also, magic missile sort of scales better.

[Silly Name]

I guess someone remembered that Power Word spells were supposed to be good. :smallbiggrin:

I guess the "balancing" factor here is that it fundamentally becomes worse as you level up, but, yeah, it's still a very efficient way to kill most of the "big" creatures a level 1 wizard would face by just dropping the spell and then run away while your friends chip at their HP.

[Elves]

Duration matters.
I don't buy that given that it's doing the same first-turn damage as MM @1st. The duration is pure surplus.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't buy that given that it's doing the same first-turn damage as MM @1st. The duration is pure surplus.

I agree it's far better than MM, superior in almost every way (save range and scaling). I still think calling it "as good as 10 magic missiles" is overstating the case.

[Lapak]

Range does matter, particularly so at low levels. A 1st-3rd level mage has to be within charging and/or thrown-weapon distance of a typical enemy to get off a PW:P. Which also means being within the range of your target's friends. I'd rather zap a goblin at a safe 100 feet and run away than zap one at 30 feet and have his friends fill me full of javelins. Assuming I made it within range in the first place. (Obviously putting all the goblins down with Sleep is better than either of these options.) Or take an ogre as a target, who will actually end up eating the damage-over-time. He's going to last long enough to smash the wizard into paste before he succumbs, and you're close enough for him to do it.

It's still a very strong spell for first level, honestly probably over-strong. But there are legitimate reasons why range is a mitigating factor in early levels - casters have many fewer ways to protect themselves at short range, so any single-target spell that doesn't instantly incapacitate is risky at at distance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So at 1st level this spell deals as much damage as 10 successive magic missiles in one spell at one action cost and the only difference is short vs medium range? What gives?

Two things:

First, its duration is randomized. Maybe it does as much as 10 magic missiles, maybe it only does 4. Maybe it does 16. There's no way to know until it actually wears off. It'll tend toward 10 rounds since that's the peak of the bell curve of 4d4 but d4s make that curve a lot flatter than it otherwise might be.

Second, unlike magic missile, it tapers off fast since it actually scales backwards. As your level increases, the damage done by magic missile increases and you become capable of effecting multiple targets. PWP has its duration, thus also its damage, cut in half when the target has 50 hp and again if they have 75. If they have 100 or more HP the spell fails outright. It stays solid for a fair while with mooks but it falls off on boss fights really fast and mooks rarely come at you one at a time. The more you want that guaranteed damage, the less likely you are to get it from PWP.

At level 1, there's a clear winner between the two. Come level 5 it's more of a coin-toss and at 7 it flips. That's on CR = Party level enemies and assuming CL = Character level. Naturally, playing with either assumption will shift that up or down.

Then, of course, you have to consider that close range. Mid-range is a safe enough distance. 110 feet is out of charging distance and out of reach of a good portion of thrown weapons and natural ranged attacks for the vast majority of foes. 25 feet is very much not. Even in a dungeon where you're not likely to get the full hundred+ feet, being just 45 feet away is still a lot safer than a mere 25 since putting low obstacles or allies between you and a would be charger is a lot easier indoors. If they can't reach you in one move, they probably can't meaningfully attack you at all in this round. As somebody with a d4 hd, no armor proficiencies, and a poor fort save; you don't want to be anywhere an enemy can easily reach.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<snip> you become capable of effecting multiple targets.Usually, their parents did that before they were born.

:smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Usually, their parents did that before they were born.

:smalltongue:

Bah. That one gets me way more often than "there, their, they're" or "two, to, too." :smallsigh:

[DarkSoul]

"there, their, they're"Just use "theiy're" and make some popcorn.

Something something watch the world burn...

[Elves]

I searched this and saw someone suggest the levels for PW: Pain and PW: Distract got messed up (edit: as in swapped with each other). I could see that. Raw blaster damage and low levels are both things WOTC pays attention to, and it seems out of character for them to outclass MM @1st this way. You can sort of justify it, oh the close range is dangerous or whatever, but it feels uncharacteristic.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. PWP drawbacks, note that the [mind-affecting] tag limits the range of targets somewhat.

Overall, I'd rate PWP as an overstrong L1 spell, a strong L2 spell, a reasonable L3 spell, and a situational L4 spell.

[nedz]

PWP scales negatively with level.
As do Colour Spray and Sleep, which are arguable more powerful 1st level spells, at 1st level, than PWP.

MM isn't particularly powerful: it's just a guaranteed hit for a small amount of damage which appears to scale with level, but doesn't really - if you consider that the target's HP scales faster.

[Crake]

PWP scales negatively with level.
As do Colour Spray and Sleep, which are arguable more powerful 1st level spells, at 1st level, than PWP.

Interestingly, those two spells are also [mind-affecting].

[Zancloufer]

To be fair damage over time kind of sucks compared to upfront damage. I mean in theory it does eventually out-damage Magic missile but as mentioned it scales really bad. Either way it's damage caps at about 50 damage, though in practice your probably only dealing 3~4 damage a round for about 8 rounds so probably closer to 30 total damage. Blasting and especially DoT blasting is much more sub-par than many people believe. Also this spell auto-fails against any undead or vermin.

As mentioned, you have to get dangerously close to use it, it's almost guaranteed NOT to TKO whatever you use it on and it scales backwards. You can't even outrun whatever you use it on because it can just run right up into your face at best, charge you at worst. If your getting close enough to use it you might as well fire off a colour spray instead. The difference between getting 30ft away from something angry and 95% not taking it out and getting 15ft away and having a ~60-90% chance to render something and it's group of buddies dead with extra steps is rather striking.

Also Magic Missile ignore any defense other than SR and being literally un-targetable and has quite a bit of splat and meta-magic support.

[Elves]

As do Colour Spray and Sleep, which are arguable more powerful 1st level spells, at 1st level, than PWP.
Both of those allow a save.


I mean in theory it does eventually out-damage Magic missile but as mentioned it scales really bad.
1d4+1 and d6 have the same average. It equals mm on turn 1, then gets 9 more turns of the same damage to boot.

[Fizban]

It's pretty obviously indefensible, in my opinion. I could see an excuse about it being accidentally the wrong level, though which level it is appropriate at would still be up for debate.

Races of the Dragon also has plenty of other questionable content:

The Sticky Floor spell, a non-magical bit of "conjuration" magic that "extends through footwear" and basically beats both Grease and Entangle, but with an hour/level duration.
Greater Mighty Wallop, either the most powerful or most pititful weapon damage buff in the game, depending on who is using it (and kobolds are the pitiful end).
Power Words Maladroit and Weaken: ability damage does not work that way.
Wings of Cover: the spell that lets you no-sell any non-AoE effect, best used in wand form for a mere 90gp per win. Except not, because it "disrupts line of effect," but only mentions "attacks," and only gives +4 reflex if they "attack" the area with something like a Fireball, so maybe it "only" blocks an attack roll or gives +4 on a reflex save.
Sundark Goggles, so you can just buy your way out of half that racial penalty, and muck up gaze attacks at the same time.
Chitin armor, for the cheapest +1 dex mod and druid loophole.
Dragonheart Mage, losing two casting levels for a mere increase to d8s on the Dragon Breath feat (you get 3d6 four levels later at 10th).
Draconic Grafts, using the new graft system with its extra hit point and other penalties.
Dragonwrought Kobolds and all the loophole shenanigans thereof.
Entangling Exhalation, turning breath weapons into likely unlimited no-save AoEs, and with die and a half of damage at 1st.
And the whole quasi-template quasi-race thing of Dragonborn of Bahamut in general.


So sure, I wouldn't be much chuffed if someone showed proof PW: Pain's written effect is right, but was accidentally placed at the wrong level. But I also wouldn't be surprised at all if it's exactly the level its writer intended.

[RSGA]

Both of those allow a save.


1d4+1 and d6 have the same average. It equals mm on turn 1, then gets 9 more turns of the same damage to boot.

Despite the save, those two both have a chance to take out multiple enemies, while PWP will only ever hit one target. This can matter at the lower levels, and really matters in terms of action economy impact.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Both of those allow a save.


1d4+1 and d6 have the same average. It equals mm on turn 1, then gets 9 more turns of the same damage to boot.

I checked since it's relevant to the comparison with MM; something like a third of the CR 1 enemies in the SRD are outright immune to not only PWP but both sleep and color spray as well by virtue of type. Almost nothing is immune to MM. At CR 1; very, very little even has resistance.

A couple of the youngest dragons, suitable boss encounters for a very low evel party, have enough HP to reduce the duration and damage of PWP and to tank what's left. A very young blue or young white, both cr 4, even cuts it to only a d4 rounds where an unlucky roll has it matching MM. There's very little you want to be within close range of less than them that you might encounter at that level.

Like I said, when you want that guaranteed damage the most, PWP is almost invariably a -worse- option than MM on range alone even before you look at the fact it has two tags that render whole swathes of enemies immune; mind-affecting and compulsion.

[Zarvistic]

It is strong as a level 1 for sure, but really who would even look at this spell if it was level 2..

[rel]

In the context of a normal D&D encounter, the total damage isn't that relevant because combat rarely lasts that long anyway.
It's reliable and high damage over time but it probably has less of an effect on a pitched battle than say a well placed colourspray.


The main issues with the spell are

1) It encourages a degenerate style of play where the wizard tags something with the spell then hides in a closet sucking their thumb and not actually participating while said target gets around to dying.

2) The existence of the spell is extremely problematic for the players because if an NPC get's hit by the spell and dies in 2 rounds instead of 3, not much has changed. But if a PC gets hit by the spell they are effectively dead no matter what.

[icefractal]

Magic Missile is an ok 1st level spell, but it's kind of ****ty at 1st level. 1d4+1? Even against CR 1 foes, that's often not going to cut the mustard. Daze (a cantrip) might be better.

So, I don't think that "stronger than Magic Missile at 1st level" tells us much.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In the context of a normal D&D encounter, the total damage isn't that relevant because combat rarely lasts that long anyway.
It's reliable and high damage over time but it probably has less of an effect on a pitched battle than say a well placed colourspray.

This is an excellent point. The system was designed around an average encounter taking about 5 rounds. So most of the time PWP is only going to be doing around 17-18 points of damage. That's lethal on its own at level 1 and even level 2 but the average level or CR 3 foe will have eaten more damage from some other source. The caster is still helping but in about the same way he would have by just whacking the thing with his quarterstaff each round, depending on what he actually does with the intervening time.



The main issues with the spell are

1) It encourages a degenerate style of play where the wizard tags something with the spell then hides in a closet sucking their thumb and not actually participating while said target gets around to dying.

Speaking of which... This is only one way to look at this. The other is that a low level caster, who has very few spells anyway, ought to preserve them and use a ranged weapon he's proficient with as often as he can, be it a crossbow, darts, or a shortbow if you're an elf. Save the magic for targets that matter or crowd control. If you've only got 3 or 4 first level spells in a day, one per combat is about where you -want- to be.


2) The existence of the spell is extremely problematic for the players because if an NPC get's hit by the spell and dies in 2 rounds instead of 3, not much has changed. But if a PC gets hit by the spell they are effectively dead no matter what.

On the flip side, most NPCs have little or no healing whereas PCs almost invariably do have a substantial amount. Keeping an ally on his feet or at least out of his grave can be a substantial challenge that's worth playing through. A level 1 party is all luck of the dice anyway and characters are trivially replaced. By level 3, PWP shouldn't be a lethal threat unless resources are already getting slim. As I mentioned above, at level 5 it's on par with other level 1 damage spells and by 7 or so it's getting ready to soon go offline for good.

[King of Nowhere]

2) The existence of the spell is extremely problematic for the players because if an NPC get's hit by the spell and dies in 2 rounds instead of 3, not much has changed. But if a PC gets hit by the spell they are effectively dead no matter what.

That.
I really dislike the idea that a level 1 wizard can just kill someone up to level 3-4 like this. A single spell, no save, unavoidable death.
My first guideline for what's allowed at my table is that it can't screw up too badly someone of your same level without some sort of reasonsble defence, and for that, pwp is as bad as shivering touch. Possibly worse.
Yes, pwp is nowhere near as useful in combat for multiple reasons, but that's neither here nor there. Yes, there are many defences from it, but those are never available at level 1.

How would the party react if an enemy wizard 1 cast it on them? This is my second major guideline, and pwp fails badly there too.

It's not much a matter of power in stylized combat, but of what kind of world do we want to play in

[Vaern]

PWP appears to be mind-affecting compulsion, meaning there's a variety of potential targets that it simply doesn't affect. Probably not enough reason for it to have so much more damage potential for a single spell slot compared to MM, but enough reason to pick MM over it in a number of scenarios.

[Elves]

It's not much a matter of power in stylized combat, but of what kind of world do we want to play in
Or to put it differently, the spell already presumes player victory if it's balanced on the idea of "x rounds per combat" as opposed to "can they beat this at all".

[icefractal]

Or to put it differently, the spell already presumes player victory if it's balanced on the idea of "x rounds per combat" as opposed to "can they beat this at all".Not necessarily player victory, just "in X rounds, the combat will be over one way or the other".

Like, "cast PWP and then run" is fine, if:
* You can outrun the monster.
* The rest of your party can also outrun the monster.
* You have an escape route available.
* You're just trying to kill the monster, not urgently stop it from doing something (like eating the person it just grabbed).

I wouldn't call "TPK, but the monster also died afterwards" or "most of the party were killed, but a couple got away" a player victory.

[JoeNapalm]

Am I the only one who believes this spell projects a PowerPoint presentation on the nearest wall to your target?

-Jn-

[icefractal]

I do think PWP is badly designed though.

The other Power Word spells use a constant factor (being blind/stunned/dead is equally bad for a low-level and a high-level character) moderated by a level-dependent factor (HP).

Power Word Pain uses a level-dependent factor moderated by that same level-dependent factor. Would have made more sense for it to give penalties, as several other pain-based spells do.

[Fizban]

Look, I don't want to get into yet another long drawn-out argument over whether PW:P is okay just because it doesn't break some people's games, and they can come up with reasonable phrasing for why it sounds fine as long as you don't think about what the spell is actually doing. But I feel like the point is not getting sufficient support.

Power Word: Kill is 9th. It is 9th specifically because it kills anything with 100 hit points or less with no save, and it stayed at that level even when it became a compulsion rather than a conjuration. It doesn't matter that plenty of enemies have more than 100 hit points at that level. It doesn't matter if some number of enemies just happen to be immune to a spell if all the other enemies at that CR die to it without fail, the same way it doesn't matter than some enemies happen to be immune to fire, or vulnerable to fire, or immune to all spells, or have SR, or have DR penetrated by silvered weapons, or DR/-, or lack the [orc] subtype.

Power Word Pain as a 1st level spell which kills any 1st level foe without fail unless they happen to be immune. It doesn't matter that it might take a couple of rounds. Barely any 1st level foes have significant pursuit ability, and full defense is always an option, even if the enemy does have sufficient hit points to last more than a couple rounds and the whole rest of the party stops attacking. It deals an average of 35 damage to a foe with 50 hit points or less- which also has a very high chance of killing many foes above 1st level, unless every die rolls extremely low. The closest comparable damage over time spells are 2nd level, not even 1st, and do not last 10 rounds at cl 1 with no chance of exit. It does not matter if the damage seems inoffensive at levels other than 1st, because it is available, and even most effective, at 1st. Its design goes against the entire point of Power Words, that are supposed to have flat effects against flat hit point totals: dealing damage is the one thing they shouldn't do. And that is all without considering its effect when employed against PCs and classed NPCs. It is, in short, indefensible.

I cannot read any argument in support of Power Word Pain as published as actually coming from an objective outside viewpoint, because they are all tailored to this exact spell with this exact effect and reasons why maybe it's not that bad, if you don't look at the part where it's bad. If it had not been published by WotC, I have no doubt that anyone suggesting such a spell would be immediately told all of the problems with it and that they should not allow such a spell- or that if they decided it was fine for their game in spite of those facts, that it should not be named a Power Word, or if it was, should still be marked and made out as a terrifying example for the paradigm shift it causes.


At 4th level, it can at least be compared to the orbs, with max/current hit points and SR rather than touch attack as the only defenses, though it still has no business being called a Power Word or having a hit point damage attack that checks total hit points. A hit point fraction attack that checks total hit points, maybe, but Avasculate went and made that a 7th level ray too (and faction plus threshold equals flat damage, which is still un-PW). And the 10d6 is still more than cl 7 would normally support if it weren't over time of course.

4th is the same level Power Word Distract is given, but Distract does not warrant a drop to 1st either. No 1st level spell should be checking against a hit point total that high (another problem with pain, it calling 50-100 at 1st), and make no mistake, Distract is a Sneak Attack enabler. An enabler for multiple attacks, for multiple creatures, making it effectively blinding that works on creatures immune to blinding, or mass Greater Invisibility, for a turn. I wouldn't put either of those lower than 4th.

[Thunder999]

The issue with comparing to power word kill is that power word kill is useless garbage.

Being better than power word kill isn't an issue, it's a goal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Look, I don't want to get into yet another long drawn-out argument over whether PW:P is okay just because it doesn't break some people's games, and they can come up with reasonable phrasing for why it sounds fine as long as you don't think about what the spell is actually doing. But I feel like the point is not getting sufficient support.

It's certainly a strong spell. I won't deny that at all. The question is whether it's broken or not. I'll defend "not."


Power Word: Kill is 9th. It is 9th specifically because it kills anything with 100 hit points or less with no save, and it stayed at that level even when it became a compulsion rather than a conjuration. It doesn't matter that plenty of enemies have more than 100 hit points at that level. It doesn't matter if some number of enemies just happen to be immune to a spell if all the other enemies at that CR die to it without fail, the same way it doesn't matter than some enemies happen to be immune to fire, or vulnerable to fire, or immune to all spells, or have SR, or have DR penetrated by silvered weapons, or DR/-, or lack the [orc] subtype.

A couple things:

First, PWK kills the foe -instantly-. That matters. That matters a -lot-. At that level, save or die effects are pretty common. If PWK took 10 rounds to kill a target, they could very likely kill you right back before it did its work. That's a draw, at best.

Second, the above can be largely disregarded anyway. I checked; there are -no- CR 17 foes with less than 100hp that are vulnerable to PWK in the srd. I even went all the way down to CR 12 to check for the odd scenario that an ur-priest somehow picked it up at 16 where I only found -one- viable target.

Third, it's still a single target spell. In the above situations with CR 12 and 13 enemies, you're not facing just one but you only typically have one 9th level slot.

Finally, while you're dismissing immunity here, it's not something so easily dismissed if you're being obejective. There are -still- whole creature types that just don't care about it at all. Even within the ones that do, specific immunity to compulsion, mind-affecting, and/or death effects are pretty common.



So what are we actually looking at with PWK? A finisher. If it's checking for current HP, then you've already dug through between 1/2 and 2/3 of a foe's HP before you can end the fight with level appropriate foes and around 15-20% of one of several foes in a level appropriate multi-foe encounter and you've still got several to go.

PWK no more instantly ends or auto-wins an encounter than does PWP. Not if it was an encounter you weren't virtually guaranteed to win anyway.




Power Word Pain as a 1st level spell which kills any 1st level foe without fail unless they happen to be immune. It doesn't matter that it might take a couple of rounds.

Gotta disagree. Upon checking again, no single CR 1 foe will be dropped in less than 3 rounds. A -lot- can happen in 3 rounds, especially to a wizard with only one good hit's worth of HP (an NPC wizard is CR 1/2, remember). Some of the CR 1s will actually take 5, like a riding dog.

That the enemy's dead doesn't really matter much if you are too.


Barely any 1st level foes have significant pursuit ability,

And 1st level PCs have almost no escape abilities. More than a few CR 1 creatures are -faster- than level 1 PCs. If a 1st level wizard tries to flee from a wolf after getting close enough to hit it with PWP, he damn well better have somebody ready to cover his retreat or he's gonna freakin' die.


and full defense is always an option,

Being 20% harder to hit is very nice but it's rather contingent on already being at least moderately difficult to hit in the first place. That wolf I mentioned, had better than even odds of biting the typical level 1 wizard at normal AC and you -can't- cast a spell and total defense on the same round. Nor can your ally take an opportunity attack against it if he's on total defense. That wolf only has to hit a wizard -twice- in the 5 rounds it takes the spell to kill him and the second one will probably be targetting normal AC -4 for prone.


even if the enemy does have sufficient hit points to last more than a couple rounds and the whole rest of the party stops attacking. It deals an average of 35 damage to a foe with 50 hit points or less- which also has a very high chance of killing many foes above 1st level, unless every die rolls extremely low.

Checked that too. CR 2 still mostly fall, CR 3 is more often than not, 4 will mostly live and 5 virtually all survive if they actually get the full duration at all.


The closest comparable damage over time spells are 2nd level, not even 1st, and do not last 10 rounds at cl 1 with no chance of exit. It does not matter if the damage seems inoffensive at levels other than 1st, because it is available, and even most effective, at 1st.

Like I said before, level 1 is pretty much a craps-shoot regardless of any build choices you might make. Being able to guarantee the death of up to 5-ish foes as a sorcerer is a bit much if you only expect to encounter 3 or 4 foes total in a given day but a 4 encounter day of EL 1 encounters can be a dozen or more foes since most classed, humanoid foes are fractional CR. In the worst case, your whole day is a very young blue dragon and he's both thoroughly unimpressed and more than a little miffed at your nettle of a spell.


Its design goes against the entire point of Power Words, that are supposed to have flat effects against flat hit point totals: dealing damage is the one thing they shouldn't do.

Where is that design philosophy detailed? It appears to me that the only thing consistent between power words is the check against HP as their primary foil. The variety of things they do seems pretty broad.


And that is all without considering its effect when employed against PCs and classed NPCs.

Why wouldn't you consider that? Classed NPCs are just one more type of foe and PC/Foe near-transparency is one of the major draws of this system over others.


It is, in short, indefensible.

Thats your opinion. I disagree.


I cannot read any argument in support of Power Word Pain as published as actually coming from an objective outside viewpoint, because they are all tailored to this exact spell with this exact effect and reasons why maybe it's not that bad, if you don't look at the part where it's bad.

The part where it's bad is that the lowest level foes are pretty much guaranteed to die if they're a valid target even when the spell is cast at minimum caster level, right? When was that not a given? At any level, including 1, the presumption when the party enters combat is that the foes will die and the party probably won't. PWP doesn't change that. At most it means that a single foe will die regardless of the overall outcome of the combat, assuming they have no way to heal themselves of 25-30ish points of damage over a minute. Color me thoroughly unimpressed.


If it had not been published by WotC, I have no doubt that anyone suggesting such a spell would be immediately told all of the problems with it and that they should not allow such a spell-

I think this thread has been doing a pretty good job of hilighting the spell's pros and cons. Banning it in your own game is always the GMs prerogative. I don't. I don't see it as problematic. Strong, certainly, but not so much so that it's ban-worthy.


or that if they decided it was fine for their game in spite of those facts, that it should not be named a Power Word,

I don't get this one. You speak a single word of power and <thing> happens to target creature if their vitality is below a certain threshold. How is that not a power word?


or if it was, should still be marked and made out as a terrifying example for the paradigm shift it causes.

What paradigm shift? It's HP damage. Slow HP damage at that. Follow up with a couple magic missiles and you -maybe- keep up with the fighter on damage output. Whoop-de-doo.



At 4th level, it can at least be compared to the orbs, with max/current hit points and SR rather than touch attack as the only defenses, though it still has no business being called a Power Word or having a hit point damage attack that checks total hit points. A hit point fraction attack that checks total hit points, maybe, but Avasculate went and made that a 7th level ray too (and faction plus threshold equals flat damage, which is still un-PW). And the 10d6 is still more than cl 7 would normally support if it weren't over time of course.

If it was damage all at once, you'd have a point. 35 points over the course of a minute is pretty trivially beaten by any reliable source of healing. Target has a healing belt? You've done 8 hp worth of damage (average) and the foe has only lost 3 actions. Fast healing 2? Maybe you drop an imp or quasit (both CR 2).


4th is the same level Power Word Distract is given, but Distract does not warrant a drop to 1st either. No 1st level spell should be checking against a hit point total that high (another problem with pain, it calling 50-100 at 1st), and make no mistake, Distract is a Sneak Attack enabler. An enabler for multiple attacks, for multiple creatures, making it effectively blinding that works on creatures immune to blinding, or mass Greater Invisibility, for a turn. I wouldn't put either of those lower than 4th.

That's overstated. It's part of 1 round and it's only loss of dex. Yes, it enables sneak attacks. That only actually matters if somebody has the feature. Otherwise it's just a minor AC debuff and denies reaction abilities. It's the fact it's an irresistable debuff to the creature that are vulnerable and that it -does- shut off reactions that pushes it up, although 4 would probably be a bit much if the number wasn't 150. If it was 100, I'd say level 3 is more appropriate.

Also, isn't blindness/deafness a level 2 spell?

[Elves]

Fizban & I have pretty different levels for calibrating balance and I don't see the rest of his ROTD list as problematic but PWP sticks out as unjustified. The lack of scaling doesn't change its effectiveness at lvl 1-2. And the "DOT so monster can still kill wiz during that time" argument has several problems. 1, the wizard is not more likely to die as a result of casting the spell (on the contrary), so that doesn't work as a balancing mechanism for it. Nor is it significantly less damaging than same-level damage options (1 point less initial damage than lesser orbs), so there is no immediate damage vs payoff tradeoff being made. 2, the wizard dying doesn't change what the wizard has achieved, and that in itself can be unbalanced regardless of whether the wizard dies or not. 3, the spell is out of wack with same-level options, and that's just as important as whether this power is in an absolute sense too strong for a 1st-level character to have. 4, when used by an NPC against a PC, it will be almost invariably fatal, which lays bare how unbalanced it is.

I'm just noticing it's a very uncharacteristic spell for WOTC to print. Again, in this case I wouldn't be surprised if there were a level mixup.

[rel]

Not necessarily player victory, just "in X rounds, the combat will be over one way or the other".

Like, "cast PWP and then run" is fine, if:
* You can outrun the monster.
* The rest of your party can also outrun the monster.
* You have an escape route available.
* You're just trying to kill the monster, not urgently stop it from doing something (like eating the person it just grabbed).

I wouldn't call "TPK, but the monster also died afterwards" or "most of the party were killed, but a couple got away" a player victory.

This is why I said it encourages degenerate play styles earlier. When presented with an extremely powerful spell ostensibly balanced by slow action like power word pain, animate weapon or what have you, the most effective strategy involves trying to avoid playing the exciting tabletop combat minigame entirely and staying out of reach while said spell kills the monster without risk or fuss.
The players are encouraged to bypass the fun.

[Crake]

(an NPC wizard is CR 1/2, remember)

Minor nitpick, but a level 1 NPC wizard is CR1 not CR1/2

[Telok]

What I'm wondering is who are all these wizards running out in front of the rest of the party to cast something only marginally longer range than burning hands?

No, wait, never mind. I remembered that I have a picture somewhere of a battlemat with practically that exact scenario. Granted that guy's characters did usually die like 5x as often as anyone else, no matter what class they were. That guy would read a caster build & tactics guide on the internet and then use that build to do opposite tactics.

Frankly I just have no idea why any level 1 arcane caster with non-zero tactical acumen (translation: not a complete idiot) would not stand behind the fighter and out of reach when casting a spell. Chuck a dart and walk up on round one. Then, having demonstrated your complete uselessness in combat, cast and retreat on round two. Let the sack of hit points take some damage. You'll just recruit another boozy dwarf barbarian at the next tavern or occupied jail cell.

[Fizban]

Fizban & I have pretty different levels for calibrating balance and I don't see the rest of his ROTD list as problematic but PWP sticks out as unjustified. . .
I'm just noticing it's a very uncharacteristic spell for WOTC to print. Again, in this case I wouldn't be surprised if there were a level mixup.
Yeah, basically that. I generally avoid your threads, but in this instance we actually agree? I would not expect to see much argument after that, but here we are.


Frankly I just have no idea why any level 1 arcane caster with non-zero tactical acumen (translation: not a complete idiot) would not stand behind the fighter and out of reach when casting a spell.
Which they can do, because this is a targeted spell.

[H_H_F_F]

So, here's the thing that makes me dislike PWP:

If I, as a DM, hit my players with a color spray at level 1, it evokes the reaction "oh ****, we messed up, we shouldn't have grouped like that".

If I hit my players with sleep, they can lament their bad rolls, or their lack of investment in will saves, and be concerned for their party.

If I hit a player with magic missile, it's probably to drop them below 0, which means the party needs to adjust their tactics to save their fallen comrad.

If a greataxe crits against a player and rolls 12, that sucks - but we live and die by the dice, and early levels are dangerous. Sometimes unlikely things happen. I'm sorry, player.

If, however, I hit a level 1 player with PWP, I'm an *******. I've decided that player is dead. No amount of resource management will save them, if they're a first level party. No dice roll will help, and their decisions both on the battlefield and when making their characters are irrelevant. I would never, EVER do that. PWK is on them - they're ECL 17, they should have been better prepared. PWP? "LOL, I've decided you're dead, next character please".

If I see a spell that I would never, ever use on a party of appropriate level, no matter the circumstances, I'm going to disagree with that spell's design. Doesn't mean I have to ban it, or that it breaks the game when used by PCs, but it's still bad design.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fizban & I have pretty different levels for calibrating balance and I don't see the rest of his ROTD list as problematic but PWP sticks out as unjustified.

I respect Fizban well enough, we agree on a number of principles if not the exact execution of them, but his idea of balance sits on a somewhat lower than average bar, by his own admission at that. IIRC, it was something to the effect of "I aim for the balance point of the classic 4 man played as beater, scout, healer, and artillery as it was toward the beginning of the edition's run." Though, as always, he can correct me if this isn't accurate. No disrespect intended, Fizban.

You I'm not as familiar with but you articulate your arguments well and I appreciate that.



The lack of scaling doesn't change its effectiveness at lvl 1-2.

Negative scaling but otherwise, true, It doesn't. My position is that it's not nearly as effective at these levels as it's being made out to be. People are harping on "ZOMG, 35 damage!" but that's massive overkill at 1 when it does work and it doesn't work against a -lot- of low CR foes.


And the "DOT so monster can still kill wiz during that time" argument has several problems.

Oh? I'm pretty sure -surviving- the encounter is almost always a higher goal than killing the enemy but let's look.


1, the wizard is not more likely to die as a result of casting the spell (on the contrary), so that doesn't work as a balancing mechanism for it.

Wrong. Having to get into what is effectlively melee range to deliver an attack that -does not- instantlly disable or even moderately inconvenience a foe until it actually kills him several rounds later makes you -much- more likely that you'll be killed than getting into such range to deliver a spell that will instantly take that foe down (sleep and color spray again) or staying at a safer distance to deliver less overall damage. Guaranteeing a foe dies does not guarantee you will live. Only actually killing him or otherwise disabling him entirely does.


Nor is it significantly less damaging than same-level damage options (1 point less initial damage than lesser orbs), so there is no immediate damage vs payoff tradeoff being made.

Indeed. The damage it does round over round is perfectly average for a spell at CL 1. At CL 2 it takes twice as long to do the same damage as most other level 1 spells. At CL 3 it takes thrice as long, and so on. Past about level character level 5, it not only delivers damage much slower but also delivers about the same amount rather than several times as much -if- CL = Character level, which is an assumption trivially broken.



2, the wizard dying doesn't change what the wizard has achieved, and that in itself can be unbalanced regardless of whether the wizard dies or not.

Again, the thing being accomplished is -one- foe that is vulnerable being killed, maybe. Unless it's the final foe of an adventure, that's almost never going to unbalance anything. Particularly given that such a foe is almost certainly slated to die anyway at the levels that PWP is even useful.

If it -is- the final villain for an adventure and the PCs are somehow not level 2 already, then we're probably looking at something around CR 4 for a single foe. That's not even a guaranteed kill -before- you remember that the duration is randomized on a fairly flat bell curve. Even then, his dying is only a problem if you wanted to establish him as a rival to the party or one of its members and he was supposed to escape; a thing that only becomes -slightly- more contrived than it otherwise would've been should you force it anyway. A potion of vigor cuts about 2/3 of the ongoing damage and nearly negates the spell altogether after both have had their duration lapse.


3, the spell is out of wack with same-level options, and that's just as important as whether this power is in an absolute sense too strong for a 1st-level character to have.

It's reallly not. It only seems like it if -all- you focus on is the average damage and don't honestly look at -any- other factor. Unlike most 1st level spells, the damage it does round over round doesn't scale; it's always a flat 1d6; the overall damage scales backwards, and it ceases to function altogether as a first round option at about the cusp of mid-level.



4, when used by an NPC against a PC, it will be almost invariably fatal, which lays bare how unbalanced it is.

At level 1? Maybe. And only maybe. The entire party has to have slacked off on healing options or have exhausted them. Granted, it will almost certainly exhaust those resources, for the day at least. An enemy sorcerer that spams it at the whole party has probably killed them all but onlly if he somehow survives more than one round being that close to the party, something highly unlikely, even as a level 4 with 18ish hit points. In which case we're right back to -maybe- he's killed one of them.

Assuming no one in the party has access to a dose of sannish. It's a drug from BoVD whose side effect is being immune to pain for several hours and only costs 15gp a dose.


I'm just noticing it's a very uncharacteristic spell for WOTC to print. Again, in this case I wouldn't be surprised if there were a level mixup.

It's entirely possible that it and one of the other power words from RotD had their level switched. I still think the overpoweredness of it is being grossly overblown.


This is why I said it encourages degenerate play styles earlier. When presented with an extremely powerful spell ostensibly balanced by slow action like power word pain, animate weapon or what have you, the most effective strategy involves trying to avoid playing the exciting tabletop combat minigame entirely and staying out of reach while said spell kills the monster without risk or fuss.
The players are encouraged to bypass the fun.

Here's the thing. At the level the spell is both available -and- useful, getting those circumstances to line up is pretty difficult. You -can't- just sit back and wait for several rounds no matter how nice it'd be if you could. Trying to is very likely to result in at least one PC death if not an outright TPK.

If you're a wizard or sorcerer, you're -supposed- to stay away from the enemy and this spell forces you to get close.

The guy who's supposed to get close; fighter, barbarian, warblade, etc; either still will or he's gonna sit back and watch the wizard get ganked, failing utterly to do his job.

The rogue or similar -might- try to defensively hold the target's attention but it'll be awfully bad for his health and he's supposed to keep mobile and skirmish (tactic not feature) anyway.

The divine caster is either of the type that will be right next to the fighter or right next to the wizard and in both cases has to be near enough the action that if he's going to do the healbot thing that he's in fighting distance whether he likes it or not.

If kiting were something that could be reasonably done at the level the spell is viable, your point would have merit. As-is though, the incentives for not doing that, chiefly that it's functionally impossible but also that it's less fun, are -way- bigger than the incentive for doing it by casting this spell.

[Fizban]

I respect Fizban well enough, we agree on a number of principles if not the exact execution of them, but his idea of balance sits on a somewhat lower than average bar, by his own admission at that. IIRC, it was something to the effect of "I aim for the balance point of the classic 4 man played as beater, scout, healer, and artillery as it was toward the beginning of the edition's run." Though, as always, he can correct me if this isn't accurate. No disrespect intended, Fizban.

I don't think you need a lower than average expectation of power level to realize that "this spell kills level appropriate foes without fail" has something wrong with it :smallconfused:

I am also on record stating that my tweaks and brew are deliberately aiming higher than the actual baseline of the game, because I wouldn't find that very fun either, and probably land higher than I'm aiming at because I like magic and have power creep tendencies like everyone else, even if I make a massive effort to start from the basest possible principles. Power Word Pain is broken more than any practical op I can think of, even something like free Fell Drain would probably have more limited casts, and not be a basic spell change that could apply to every Sor/Wiz and "item shop" in the world.


I suppose I will make one drawn-out response.

Second, the above can be largely disregarded anyway. I checked; there are -no- CR 17 foes with less than 100hp that are vulnerable to PWK in the srd. I even went all the way down to CR 12 to check for the odd scenario that an ur-priest somehow picked it up at 16 where I only found -one- viable target.
Which should make it even more obvious that a spell which kills foes at its level without fail has something wrong with it. The iconic 9th level version doesn't even work on foes of its level, and this 1st level one beats anything of its level without fail?

Finally, while you're dismissing immunity here, it's not something so easily dismissed if you're being obejective. There are -still- whole creature types that just don't care about it at all. Even within the ones that do, specific immunity to compulsion, mind-affecting, and/or death effects are pretty common.
And is part of monster design, not spell design. And assumes the DM is using those foes. You rate things based on when they work, not on the assumption that they don't, or at worst based on how often they are expected to work. If it works on 2/3 of enemies, how much better than a spell which works on all enemies does it get to be?

Gotta disagree. Upon checking again, no single CR 1 foe will be dropped in less than 3 rounds. A -lot- can happen in 3 rounds,
Which would matter more if it was a solo game, but it's not. The rest of the party exists (and would be rather put-out knowing how unstoppable your spell is), and full defense will still make a lot less happen.

And 1st level PCs have almost no escape abilities. More than a few CR 1 creatures are -faster- than level 1 PCs. If a 1st level wizard tries to flee from a wolf after getting close enough to hit it with PWP, he damn well better have somebody ready to cover his retreat or he's gonna freakin' die.
I cast the spell from behind the fighter, as expected. I stand there and full defense, maybe even pull out a shield 'cause I'm a degenerate. I get KO'd and the rest of the party keeps me alive, or I don't get hit at all. And none of that matters, because the fight was won the moment I cast the spell. Unless the foe (a Wolf in this case) beat me in initiative and dropped me before I could cast it, nothing they did affected their outcome.

Being 20% harder to hit is very nice but it's rather contingent on already being at least moderately difficult to hit in the first place.
And the +4 given is more than the Wolf's attack bonus. At base +3 vs base 10+4, it literally has only 50% chance of hitting. Even if it attacks you first round and lands the 70%, with only +1 Str it basically still has only a 50% chance of tripping you (net 35% hit and trip, 35% damage only, 30% miss)- of course it also has no understanding of magic, and thus no reason to focus on the caster, who we have no reason to assume even acted first. It is entirely likely the fighter or wolf went first, or either of the other two party members. This mysteriously anti-PWP Wolf needs to focus on the wizard and get three hits in the five turns it has to live, even without the rest of the party. Or four turns if it has any self-preservation instinct of its own.

Checked that too. CR 2 still mostly fall, CR 3 is more often than not, 4 will mostly live and 5 virtually all survive if they actually get the full duration at all.

What paradigm shift? It's HP damage. Slow HP damage at that. Follow up with a couple magic missiles and you -maybe- keep up with the fighter on damage output. Whoop-de-doo.
This is a 1st level spell that kills not just pests, or normal people, or even low level monsters, but by your own admission many monsters up to CR 3, without fail. It doesn't matter if the wizard dies, their target still dies.* It costs anywhere from 15-50gp per use in item form. Less than the cost of arming a basic warrior. For the cost of a few bottles of wine, nearly anyone in the world and most of the common threats they could ever face just dies, no save. That has massive, ridiculous implications for verisimilitude even if you don't care about how it affects PC combat because you assume they will win anyway and don't care about how certain it is. This is the sort of spell that changes how the world works. A paradigm shift.

I feel like I shouldn't need to say that damage can be broken, and indeed is one of the easiest things to spot being broken, but it still is. 1st level combat isn't about "damage output," nor is any level combat supposed to be but I digress- 1st level combat is well-known for being Russian Roulette, you said yourself "a lot can happen in 3-5 rounds." Each side fishes for a hit, suddenly dropping due to crit is a thing. Magic Missile is laughed at for being 1d4+1, but it's low and less random because it can't be stopped. Power Word Pain is not random, and instead of dealing 3.5 damage, it deals 35 damage. It completely changes what combat is, unless the DM explicitly makes encounters that interfere with it. Combat changes from being based on attack and save dice and resources, to cast PWP and resources. What else is that if not a paradigm shift? An even worse one because it applies unevenly, making the game even more unwieldy between level bands.

*Loses, technically requiring someone else to make the coup de grace, but for the PCs it might as well be, unless the foe manages to drop every PC first.

Like I said before, level 1 is pretty much a craps-shoot regardless of any build choices you might make. Being able to guarantee the death of up to 5-ish foes as a sorcerer is a bit much if you only expect to encounter 3 or 4 foes total in a given day but a 4 encounter day of EL 1 encounters can be a dozen or more foes since most classed, humanoid foes are fractional CR. In the worst case, your whole day is a very young blue dragon and he's both thoroughly unimpressed and more than a little miffed at your nettle of a spell.
Again, it doesn't matter of the DM can make an encounter that mitigates the problems of a spell (feat, build, etc). If there are standard encounters where something is broken, it's still probably broken. In the case of Fly vs non-flying bruisers, it's pretty obvious that the bruiser's expected CR assumes the party will actually have to fight it. In the case of PWP vs 2/3 of level appropriate and further level inappropriate foes, apparently those foes' CR is now retroactively dependent on "PCs do not have PWP?"

I don't see how anyone can say "Being able to guarantee the death of up to 5-ish foes as a sorcerer is a bit much if you only. . ." with a straight face. Being able to guarantee the death of anything is not supposed to happen. If you have enough weapon damage, you can kill foes far below your level in a single round, maybe even a single hit with enough gap. Cloudkill will auto-kill foes far below your level. A single damage spell will kill foes far below your level. An instant kill spell, without a bunch of DC and Spell Penetration boosting, won't normally work on foes of your level, but will more often against foes well below your level. Power Word Kill will instant kill without fail, but only against foes far below your level.

Nothing in the game supports the idea that you should ever reliably kill a foe at your level, in a single spell, without fail. And this is not a question of beating foes eventually, if you avoid their damage and cast enough spells. This is one spell, which for all intents and purposes guarantees defeat with a single cast.

Where is that design philosophy detailed? It appears to me that the only thing consistent between power words is the check against HP as their primary foil. The variety of things they do seems pretty broad.
Blind, Stun, Kill. Add Fatigue, Sicken, Nauseate, Deafen, and Petrify. Those are all status effects, most of the status effects even, with dead being the ultimate status. The two that involve temporary ability damage don't understand how ability damage works, but clearly want to be a temporary penalty. Damage over time is not a dnd status effect. Heck, pain is an unofficial status effect in several spells, and it's not "1d6 damage per round." So again, I think if it hadn't been published in a WotC book, no one would bat an eye at it being called out as obviously not fitting.

Why wouldn't you consider that? Classed NPCs are just one more type of foe and PC/Foe near-transparency is one of the major draws of this system over others.
In the context given, it was being generous and ignoring the infinite number of potential "foes" that outweigh the supposed commonality of those that happen to be immune, as well as the fact that when cast against a 1st level PC it will be similarly lethal unless the PCs happen to have an entire Cleric worth of unspent heals in their pocket (getting worse if you use multiple 1st level casters against slightly higher level party), thus making the assumption of NPC CRs as valid even more obviously erroneous. The latter I have much belabored and will not be re-hashing here.

The part where it's bad is that the lowest level foes are pretty much guaranteed to die if they're a valid target even when the spell is cast at minimum caster level, right? When was that not a given? At any level, including 1, the presumption when the party enters combat is that the foes will die and the party probably won't. PWP doesn't change that. At most it means that a single foe will die regardless of the overall outcome of the combat, assuming they have no way to heal themselves of 25-30ish points of damage over a minute. Color me thoroughly unimpressed.
Yeah, a foe will be defeated regardless of the overall outcome of the combat. Usually the PCs have to actually win to win. Make successful attack rolls, have enemies fail saving throws, maybe cast more than a single spell, and if they fail and run away or die, their foe survives. If you don't see that as significant, I don't know what to tell you.

If it was damage all at once, you'd have a point. 35 points over the course of a minute is pretty trivially beaten by any reliable source of healing. Target has a healing belt? You've done 8 hp worth of damage (average) and the foe has only lost 3 actions. Fast healing 2? Maybe you drop an imp or quasit (both CR 2).
Uh uh. And how many monsters have Healing Belts standard? They only lost 3 actions in return for a single 1st level no-save spell you say? And the rest of the party did what now?



That's overstated. [Power Word Distract lasts] part of 1 round and it's only loss of dex. Yes, it enables sneak attacks. That only actually matters if somebody has the feature.
Which the standard party does, and the char-op party often does with some massive number of attacks. Now anything that enables sneak attacks can get a free pass because the party could have chosen to not take it, even if they do? I guess Power Word Pain was already fine because the party might not have a Sorcerer or Wizard, even though they do and are casting it. I would have expected an assumption that sneak attack is always on, which I think is pretty obviously incorrect when the game has monsters that are immune, but I could accept that as a difference in general power/optimization level at least.

You cannot balance things based on "it might not matter" or "the players are supposed to win anyway." You balance them based on the other things in the game and the expectations of combat. You say that PWP does not change the expectation of combat because the foe does not drop for a few rounds, I say that it completely changes it because the PCs need no success with offensive rolls and the foe can change nothing about the outcome. Meanwhile PWP clearly violates even the vaguest of damage caps given in the DMG, in addition to all comparable spells of equal and even higher level. The players are supposed to win, but not every fight without fail and no significant pass/fail rolls.

I really don't know how it could be more blatant, this is pretty much the argument summary right here.

Otherwise it's just a minor AC debuff and denies reaction abilities.
Reaction denial being pretty huge in its own right, particularly if there are a bunch of added immediate action abilities rather than just AoOs. In a higher op game, Distract's worth should if anything be more secure.

Also, isn't blindness/deafness a level 2 spell?
Yes, and quite a powerful one. Which is negated by a saving throw. +2 levels and a one round duration for ignoring a save is arguably a pretty sweet deal. Ray of Light is 6th and requires a touch attack for 1d4.

[HeraldOfExius]

I think the main problem with PWP is that it's a 1st level power word, which just doesn't work well. The power words' gimmick is that instead of giving the target a save, they only work up to certain HP thresholds. This is a more reasonable limitation when characters would normally have 7/8/9 level spells, but at level 1? There's not really a good point to put that threshold. Enemies have low HP, so where do you put the drop off if you want it to be meaningful to a level 1-2 character? 10 HP? 15 HP? The basic idea of a power word doesn't seem to scale down to such low levels very easily, at least if you're trying to maintain balance with other options, because it will probably end up either affecting anything you would fight or only affecting things that were already weak enough that there isn't much of a point to even using it.

[Lapak]

If I see a spell that I would never, ever use on a party of appropriate level, no matter the circumstances, I'm going to disagree with that spell's design. Doesn't mean I have to ban it, or that it breaks the game when used by PCs, but it's still bad design.That's a pretty compelling argument right there, honestly.

[King of Nowhere]

At level 1? Maybe. And only maybe. The entire party has to have slacked off on healing options or have exhausted them. Granted, it will almost certainly exhaust those resources, for the day at least. An enemy sorcerer that spams it at the whole party has probably killed them all but onlly if he somehow survives more than one round being that close to the party, something highly unlikely, even as a level 4 with 18ish hit points. In which case we're right back to -maybe- he's killed one of them.

Assuming no one in the party has access to a dose of sannish. It's a drug from BoVD whose side effect is being immune to pain for several hours and only costs 15gp a dose.
i don't know how many healing potions you expect a 1st level party to have. at my tables we are well above wbl, but still, by the time we get many healing potions, we're well past level 1.
Nor would i expect a 1st level party to have access to the black market, regardless of actual cost.
anyway, if the spell "merely" exhaust all the healing resources of the party, it's still bad design.

[The_Jette]

How would the party react if an enemy wizard 1 cast it on them?

They would probably hit the enemy wizard in the face with a greataxe for 1d12+1.5xSTR damage. Or, have the party ranged character shoot the Wizard with their longbow to disrupt their concentration and/or kill them outright because enemy wizards are NPC's who don't get max hp at level 1.

[King of Nowhere]

They would probably hit the enemy wizard in the face with a greataxe for 1d12+1.5xSTR damage. Or, have the party ranged character shoot the Wizard with their longbow to disrupt their concentration and/or kill them outright because enemy wizards are NPC's who don't get max hp at level 1.

ok....
so, by this reasoning, we should put banshee's wail as a 1st level spell. all the party has to do is disrupt the enemy wizard casting it, so it's not a problem. disjunction is another wonderful 1st level spell; nobody has any active buff or magic item at this point anyway, so it's useless! may as well make it level 0!

Are you really trying to argue "the spell is ok because you can kill the other guy before he gets to act"?

[The_Jette]

ok....
so, by this reasoning, we should put banshee's wail as a 1st level spell. all the party has to do is disrupt the enemy wizard casting it, so it's not a problem. disjunction is another wonderful 1st level spell; nobody has any active buff or magic item at this point anyway, so it's useless! may as well make it level 0!

Are you really trying to argue "the spell is ok because you can kill the other guy before he gets to act"?

No. I was answering the question of "how would the party react if a 1st level wizard cast this on them." Against the players, this spell honestly isn't that great. Because the minute a caster is identified they become the main target. And, this only does 1d6 per round for a given amount of time. So, the party would dog-pile the caster knowing that they're the biggest threat, but have the lowest amount of hit points. As a spell that is being used by the players, it's not bad. But, as others have pointed out, you probably won't be able to get the full amount of damage out of it, since the enemy will probably be dead long before 10 rounds have passed. I know I would be disappointed about getting 1d6 of damage out of a spell slot because the barbarian ran up and smashed my target before I got to continue concentrating on it.

[Particle_Man]

That raises a question. If bad guy wizard gets initiative and casts power word pain on a pc, and then the pcs dog pile the bad guy wizard and kill the bad guy wizard, does power word pain stop operating or does it continue doing damage to the pc beyond the caster’s death?

[Silly Name]

That raises a question. If bad guy wizard gets initiative and casts power word pain on a pc, and then the pcs dog pile the bad guy wizard and kill the bad guy wizard, does power word pain stop operating or does it continue doing damage to the pc beyond the caster’s death?

As written, it doesn't stop until its dice-determined duration expires. The only way to end PW:P prematurely is having the target die before the duration expires, or removing the effect through some other spell/ability, such as Dispel Magic or IHS.

[Xervous]

No. I was answering the question of "how would the party react if a 1st level wizard cast this on them." Against the players, this spell honestly isn't that great. Because the minute a caster is identified they become the main target. And, this only does 1d6 per round for a given amount of time. So, the party would dog-pile the caster knowing that they're the biggest threat, but have the lowest amount of hit points. As a spell that is being used by the players, it's not bad. But, as others have pointed out, you probably won't be able to get the full amount of damage out of it, since the enemy will probably be dead long before 10 rounds have passed. I know I would be disappointed about getting 1d6 of damage out of a spell slot because the barbarian ran up and smashed my target before I got to continue concentrating on it.

Where is this mention of concentration coming from? PWP is fire and forget. though arguably all vancian spells are fire and forget

[The_Jette]

Where is this mention of concentration coming from? PWP is fire and forget. though arguably all vancian spells are fire and forget

That's a personal quirk of mine, and in no way supposed to be a comment on concentration rules for casting. I meant, the spell doesn't get to fire off again because the target would be dead.

As a personal note, I haven't seen anything specifically about Power Word spells where rulings are concerned, but at my table if the caster died the spell would end. This is not a catch all ruling. For instance, Melf's Acid Arrow would continue to cause acid damage, since you're creating a small amount of actual acid to affect someone. PWP doesn't have a source, so the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that the source is the Wizard. Kill the wizard, no more source of damage. That being said, even if the spell continued to do damage, the wizard would still be the target of everyone there. So, the Wizard would still die.

Edit: I will go so far as to say this: if at your table the effects of PWP would continue past the death of the Wizard who cast it and continue to do damage until the duration ran out, then it's a bit OP. That would allow a 1st level spell to chip away and kill any level appropriate enemy for the first few levels of the game, especially other Wizards. Plus, that would guarantee that any spell caster would have to make a concentration check to cast a spell every round because of the ongoing damage. That's one of the reasons why I believe it's more balanced to rule that if the Wizard who cast it dies, the effect ends.

[Remuko]

That raises a question. If bad guy wizard gets initiative and casts power word pain on a pc, and then the pcs dog pile the bad guy wizard and kill the bad guy wizard, does power word pain stop operating or does it continue doing damage to the pc beyond the caster’s death?

duration is based on HP. its not listed as a concentration spell, so it should continue even if the caster who cast it dies.

[The_Jette]

duration is based on HP. its not listed as a concentration spell, so it should continue even if the caster who cast it dies.

I disagree with your interpretation. I've also said that if you were to rule it that way, I would understand where the concept that it's an OP spell would come up.

[JNAProductions]

I disagree with your interpretation. I've also said that if you were to rule it that way, I would understand where the concept that it's an OP spell would come up.

The thing is, that's not an interpretation, that's just the rules.

I don't disagree with your houserule to make the spell more reasonable, but it is a houserule.

[The_Jette]

The thing is, that's not an interpretation, that's just the rules.

I don't disagree with your houserule to make the spell more reasonable, but it is a houserule.

I'm fine with you calling it a houserule. I personally call it an interpretation of the rules, since, as I've said, I've seen nothing indicating that a spell like this should continue after the death of the person casting it. Call it what you want, though.

[icefractal]

Spells don't end with the caster's death unless they specifically say they do. Saying that some or all do is a (reasonable) house-rule, not an interpretation - what is there to interpret?

[The_Jette]

Spells don't end with the caster's death unless they specifically say they do. Saying that some or all do is a (reasonable) house-rule, not an interpretation - what is there to interpret?

Saying that spells don't end with the caster's death unless they specifically say they do could be looked at as a house rule since it's not written anywhere. So... That's what there is to interpret.

[icefractal]

There's not a lot of text on the matter; AFAICT this is the entirety:
Timed Durations
Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable the duration is rolled secretly (the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last).

While that doesn't say they don't end when the caster dies, it also doesn't say they don't end when the target touches cold iron, or when the sun sets, or when someone yells out "Magic Begone!" I'm not seeing any more evidence for the former being the case than the latter.

[The_Jette]

There's not a lot of text on the matter; AFAICT this is the entirety:

While that doesn't say they don't end when the caster dies, it also doesn't say they don't end when the target touches cold iron, or when the sun sets, or when someone yells out "Magic Begone!" I'm not seeing any more evidence for the former being the case than the latter.

Except that the thing providing the power for the spell isn't dependent on not touching cold iron, or any of that other sarcastic stuff you wrote. However, if someone cast Dominate Person and died, the Dominate Person would end, even though the duration isn't over. That's how it's ruled at my table, because the person directing the spell is no longer there. There are obvious exceptions to this, but that's how my table has always interpreted spells with durations.

[Silly Name]

Except that the thing providing the power for the spell isn't dependent on not touching cold iron, or any of that other sarcastic stuff you wrote.

"The thing providing the power for the spell" really is too setting-dependent to be an universal rule. For example, in the Forgotten Realms, it's the Weave which powers spells and the caster is just giving it the input to do something. If we follow that, then a spell that doesn't require the caster to concentrate on it would always last its full duration no matter what because the right "code" was input into the Weave anyways. Other settings have different rules or keep it vague, but I think it's a good general rule.


However, if someone cast Dominate Person and died, the Dominate Person would end, even though the duration isn't over.

If we want to get technical, the spell is still active, but there's nobody who can issue new orders. Technically the dominated subject would still carry out any order they'd been given before the caster died (although they would get a new saving throw each day until the spell ends). I personally find this pretty interesting because it opens up plot complications and twists when it comes to this sort of thing - killing the wizard is not good enough to end his spells.

I'm pretty sure there's precedent for this with, say, golems. A golem will carry out the orders its been given until its task is complete, and if it's a task that cannot be completed (such as "guard this door"), they'll keep doing it until given a new order by their creator. If the creator dies, the golem will still stand guard. Other stuff like magical traps in lost dungeons whose builder is long dead, or really any spell with a duration of "permanent" staying up in many modules are other examples of spells existing independently of their casters.

[Elves]

The answer is no, it doesn't end if the caster dies.


Wrong. Having to get into what is effectlively melee range to deliver an attack that -does not- instantlly disable or even moderately inconvenience a foe until it actually kills him several rounds later makes you -much- more likely that you'll be killed than getting into such range to deliver a spell that will instantly take that foe down (sleep and color spray again) or staying at a safer distance to deliver less overall damage.
That argument might hold if it were a touch spell or 10 ft. range, but its range is not exceptionally close. It has the same range as lesser orbs.

Does it break the game and bring the whole system clattering down? No, but it is a problematic spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think you need a lower than average expectation of power level to realize that "this spell kills level appropriate foes without fail" has something wrong with it :smallconfused:

If 90% of level appropriate foes weren't guarnateed to die anyway, I'd be a bit more concerned.


I suppose I will make one drawn-out response.

The effort is appreciated. I'm sorry I undershot your intended power level. I'd have sworn that's pretty close to what you said in another thread recently but It'd hardly be the first time I was wrong about something. :smalltongue:


Which should make it even more obvious that a spell which kills foes at its level without fail has something wrong with it. The iconic 9th level version doesn't even work on foes of its level, and this 1st level one beats anything of its level without fail?

You missed my point. My point was that PWK doesn't kill on the first round just like PWP doesn't. It kills several rounds into the fight, just like PWP does. The difference is entirely within whether you cast it at the beginning or end of the fight and that PWP is actually something that can be resisted even when aimed at a valid target. Again, in the SRD alone there are two fiends of CR 2, a difficult but not inappropriate challenge for a first level party, who can likely as not simply shrug the spell off unless they're assaulted further beyond it.


And is part of monster design, not spell design. And assumes the DM is using those foes. You rate things based on when they work, not on the assumption that they don't, or at worst based on how often they are expected to work. If it works on 2/3 of enemies, how much better than a spell which works on all enemies does it get to be?

Monster design and the design of any offense you might point at them, including spells, are pretty tightly intertwined. If the spell did 1 point of damage per round or only lasted for one round per CL, no one would complalin about it. No one would ever cast it either because either it would do to little damage or would do its damage way too slow. The latter -is already the case- but critics of the spell focus on the total instead.

You partially rate things on how likely they are to work. Not working 1/3 of the time warrants being a bit more powerful. Exaclty how much more depends on the other factors involved. Being further resistable in effect, it's mere HP damage, warrants a bit more. I don't deny that PWP probably overshoots the bar for where most spells line up in balancing these factors but I do think that it doesn't do so by so much as to warrant being called "broken." Particularly since scalability is -also- one of those factors and the spell scales negatively on its own.

Even metamagic struggles to bring it back when you try to force it to scale. Take empower for example: it becomes a 3rd level spell that does 1d6*1.5 damage per round for an average of 15 rounds about 79 points of damage on average IF the target is vulnerable and has 50 HP or less. About half of vulnerable level appropriate targets will get the full effect. The other half not only won't get the full effect, they won't die from the effect they do get. Again, assuming the dice don't just crap out on you.


Which would matter more if it was a solo game, but it's not. The rest of the party exists (and would be rather put-out knowing how unstoppable your spell is), and full defense will still make a lot less happen.

Unstoppable? It's only unstoppable against big, dumb brutes of the lowest possible level. Mindlessness, undeath, being a plant or construct, having any means to generate HP or temporary HP to any noteworthy degree, a dirt cheap drug, or simply being tough enough to tank it all make it -way- less than unstoppable.


I cast the spell from behind the fighter, as expected. I stand there and full defense, maybe even pull out a shield 'cause I'm a degenerate. I get KO'd and the rest of the party keeps me alive, or I don't get hit at all. And none of that matters, because the fight was won the moment I cast the spell. Unless the foe (a Wolf in this case) beat me in initiative and dropped me before I could cast it, nothing they did affected their outcome.

The fight was won when the GM decided to send a single foe of a CR equal to the party level. It was only ever supposed to be a resource drain to the tune of about 20% of the party's avaliable resources. It's still -probably- going to drain some HP, which is all it was ever gonna do. Unless it actually gets to your wizard, then it might kill him if the others can't get it first. If it's closer to the end of the day than the beginning, it -still- might kill somebody else too.


And the +4 given is more than the Wolf's attack bonus. At base +3 vs base 10+4, it literally has only 50% chance of hitting. Even if it attacks you first round and lands the 70%, with only +1 Str it basically still has only a 50% chance of tripping you (net 35% hit and trip, 35% damage only, 30% miss)- of course it also has no understanding of magic, and thus no reason to focus on the caster, who we have no reason to assume even acted first. It is entirely likely the fighter or wolf went first, or either of the other two party members. This mysteriously anti-PWP Wolf needs to focus on the wizard and get three hits in the five turns it has to live, even without the rest of the party. Or four turns if it has any self-preservation instinct of its own.

4 guys; two in heavy armor, one in light armor, one in no armor. You're a hungry wolf who's seen a turtle before so you know shiny and solid means hard to bite through. Who do you go for? And that's assuming the pack has never dealt with humans before and you don't recognize a weapon when you see it. Int 2 means bad at learning, not incapable. If you're not attacking the squishiest one, it's only because you can't get to him. And at 1d6+1 per bite, it's -two- hits for a level 1 wizard to drop unless he somehow has +5 con or actually took toughness. Hell the wolf -might- drop the wizard in 1. A riding dog, also CR 1 and 13hp, will -probably- do it in 1 and is much more plausibly encountered alone than a wolf.



This is a 1st level spell that kills not just pests, or normal people, or even low level monsters, but by your own admission many monsters up to CR 3, without fail. It doesn't matter if the wizard dies, their target still dies.

That something that was doomed to die will still do so doesn't seem like something to be so up in arms about, really. Seriously, the spell has almost no impact on a combat from the player's side. It's -slightly- more worrisome from the GM's side when used against the PCs but only as spam. At Cr 2 it takes as long as a typical combat to kill -a- target and at CR 3 it takes -longer- than a typical combat. From a gaming perspective, it's just not an impressive effect unless you laser focus on the total damage to the exclusion of any, almost every, other factor.


It costs anywhere from 15-50gp per use in item form.

That's a scroll and a potion.

As a scroll, you still need someone who could've picked it as a spell the can cast anyway. No change there.

If you want to drink a potion that kills you with pain over the course of 18 seconds to a minute, you be my guest. Seems like a remarkably bad idea to me.

Now if you want to talk about a spell-vial (MoE, 100gp for a level 1), then you've added an attack roll to the equation albeit against touch AC.


Less than the cost of arming a basic warrior.

At 100gp per attack, that's stretching things to pretty close to the breaking point.


For the cost of a few bottles of wine, nearly anyone in the world and most of the common threats they could ever face just dies, no save.

That's insanely expensive wine and there's still the attack roll unless you're a caster with the spell on your list.


That has massive, ridiculous implications for verisimilitude even if you don't care about how it affects PC combat because you assume they will win anyway and don't care about how certain it is. This is the sort of spell that changes how the world works. A paradigm shift.

No, it really doesn't. The expense on the one option that doesn't limit it to people who can guaranteed one-shot the lowest-level foes anyway is way too high for it to become a common weapon of war. An assassin might appreciate having a dramatic way to kill a single target like that but for the -vast- majority of other professional killers, it's just too expensive to use with any regularity. And remember, the item counter is -vastly- cheaper at only 15gp. Opium has been used in medicine for a -long- time. That a much less addictive drug could be used therapeutically in a world where this attack is even as common as assassinations isn't even a stretch.


I feel like I shouldn't need to say that damage can be broken, and indeed is one of the easiest things to spot being broken, but it still is.

Indeed. Too much damage too quickly very much can be a problem. That's not what we're looking at though. PWP is too much damage -too slow-.


1st level combat isn't about "damage output," nor is any level combat supposed to be but I digress-

It's not. Never has been. It's about making the foe not a threat by disabling them in some way. HP damage just happens to be one of the most common, most permanent means of doing so. It's only rarely the fastest and this is no exception.


1st level combat is well-known for being Russian Roulette, you said yourself "a lot can happen in 3-5 rounds." Each side fishes for a hit, suddenly dropping due to crit is a thing. Magic Missile is laughed at for being 1d4+1, but it's low and less random because it can't be stopped.

I've never laughed at magic missile, not derisively anyway. Virtually guaranteed damage, regardless of the target is nothing to sneeze at. If you want to, you can make it a magic maccross storm and that's just awesome but even straight out of the box, it's a decent spell.


Power Word Pain is not random, and instead of dealing 3.5 damage, it deals 35 damage. It completely changes what combat is, unless the DM explicitly makes encounters that interfere with it. Combat changes from being based on attack and save dice and resources, to cast PWP and resources. What else is that if not a paradigm shift? An even worse one because it applies unevenly, making the game even more unwieldy between level bands.

It is random -enough-. There's no guarantee it's applicable, unlike MM or a sword, there's no guarantee it will drop a foe -in time- to prevent them from returning the favor or doing something else you don't want, and there's no guarantee it will drop a boss encounter at all, though it will certainly help in that goal. In the overwhelming majority of cases, it accelerates what was going to happen anyway and not by that much or it just saves a couple spell slots at the level where you have the absolute fewest of them.


*Loses, technically requiring someone else to make the coup de grace, but for the PCs it might as well be, unless the foe manages to drop every PC first.

From a game perspective, a double-loss is still chieflly a loss for the party.


Again, it doesn't matter of the DM can make an encounter that mitigates the problems of a spell (feat, build, etc). If there are standard encounters where something is broken, it's still probably broken.

Except even in standard encounters, this isn't broken. It's a d6 a round. You're doing -less- average damage than the fighter in the same time-frame and you can only do so 3-5 times per day when you're as likely as not going to see half again to twice that many foes, some of whom may well be invulnerable to the spell altogether.


In the case of Fly vs non-flying bruisers, it's pretty obvious that the bruiser's expected CR assumes the party will actually have to fight it. In the case of PWP vs 2/3 of level appropriate and further level inappropriate foes, apparently those foes' CR is now retroactively dependent on "PCs do not have PWP?"

Okay, I'm now thinking we're using "level appropriate" differently. I'm looking at it by encounter level, not just CR. At level 1, a CR 4 single enemy is a level appropriate boss encounter. Half a dozen kobold warriors is also level appropriate as a common encounter. I'm generally referring to anything in the window between those extremes. A -lot- of level 1 encounters, if not most encounters in general, are going to be multiple foe encounters. PWP doesn't upend those at all. It "guarantees" one of those foes isn't getting back up if you forget or don't have time to coup-de-gras before you walk away, -if- you walk away at all.


I don't see how anyone can say "Being able to guarantee the death of up to 5-ish foes as a sorcerer is a bit much if you only. . ." with a straight face.

I don't know why at this point. I thought I'd been laying it out pretty well so far. :smallamused:


Being able to guarantee the death of anything is not supposed to happen.

Au contraire, the vast majority of foes the party faces had their fates sealed by being included in the encounter at all. The only ones that ever really had a shot are those in encounters at the end of the adventuring day when most of the party's daily resources are spent, those involved in boss encounters, and the rare few that have the ability to flee in a way the party can't give chase. Them and those in the contrived, "you're supposed to lose so I can run this 'you've been captured' scenario," situation.


If you have enough weapon damage, you can kill foes far below your level in a single round, maybe even a single hit with enough gap. Cloudkill will auto-kill foes far below your level. A single damage spell will kill foes far below your level. An instant kill spell, without a bunch of DC and Spell Penetration boosting, won't normally work on foes of your level, but will more often against foes well below your level. Power Word Kill will instant kill without fail, but only against foes far below your level.

I don't see how any of that's relevant when PWP can't instantly kill anything with more than 6 HP and even it and the other power word are both SR: yes.


Nothing in the game supports the idea that you should ever reliably kill a foe at your level, in a single spell, without fail. And this is not a question of beating foes eventually, if you avoid their damage and cast enough spells. This is one spell, which for all intents and purposes guarantees defeat with a single cast.

A double loss is still the party's loss. That the enemy's -eventual- death is virtually guaranteed is completely irrelevant in the several rounds of combat he's still engaging, nearly unimpeded. The deaths of enemy NPCs and mosnters, aside from being virtually guaranteed by dint of being the bad guys in a combat-centric game, are -very- rarely plot-relevant unless you go out of your way to make them so. As long as guaranteeing their death doesn't guarantee your victory, it's almost entirely academic that it's now a hard guarantee rather than a virtual one.


Blind, Stun, Kill. Add Fatigue, Sicken, Nauseate, Deafen, and Petrify. Those are all status effects, most of the status effects even, with dead being the ultimate status. The two that involve temporary ability damage don't understand how ability damage works, but clearly want to be a temporary penalty. Damage over time is not a dnd status effect. Heck, pain is an unofficial status effect in several spells, and it's not "1d6 damage per round." So again, I think if it hadn't been published in a WotC book, no one would bat an eye at it being called out as obviously not fitting.

What is a status effect if not an ongoing effect in need of curing? DoT isn't in the condition summary but so what? Poisoned isn't in there either but it's probably one of the oldest, most common status effects in all of gaming.

Not that this speculative argument has anywhere to go anyway. Whatever the case may or may not have been if the spell had been printed by a 3rd party, and regardless of how you define a "status effect," the spell is what it is. I'd just as soon stick to what is than what might've been.


In the context given, it was being generous and ignoring the infinite number of potential "foes" that outweigh the supposed commonality of those that happen to be immune, as well as the fact that when cast against a 1st level PC it will be similarly lethal unless the PCs happen to have an entire Cleric worth of unspent heals in their pocket (getting worse if you use multiple 1st level casters against slightly higher level party), thus making the assumption of NPC CRs as valid even more obviously erroneous. The latter I have much belabored and will not be re-hashing here.

I'll just point out that even by WotC standards, a wand of CLW is only a 3rd level item and leave it at that then.


Yeah, a foe will be defeated regardless of the overall outcome of the combat. Usually the PCs have to actually win to win. Make successful attack rolls, have enemies fail saving throws, maybe cast more than a single spell, and if they fail and run away or die, their foe survives. If you don't see that as significant, I don't know what to tell you.

They -still- have to win. The enemy isn't just going to go, "Okay. Guess I'll just lay down and die in agony then," when you cast PWP at him. Dead vs fled is entirely academic for the overwhelming majorit of fights and if the party wipes, that's still a major loss. All it really effects is whether the PCs get a shot at their gear afterward.

Let's break it down:

Party's supposed to win (nameless NPC/Monster): no change.
Party's supposed to win (named foe): variable
Party's supposed to flee (single enemy): they still have to but only for as long as it takes the foe to drop, -if- they're weak enough.
Party's supposed to flee (multi enemy): no change.
Party's supposed to lose (multi enemy): no change.
Party's supposed to lose (single enemy): variable.

So that's a change to 3 out of 6 scenarios, one of which is a minor change, one of which is -relatively- common, and one of which is almost entirely contrived.

In the chase, the motivator for fleeing is generally the near certainty of defeat. The damage from PWP -probably- doesn't change that.
In the case of a named foe the party's supposed to defeat, they can't use PWP if they're supposed to take him alive and if he can flee, he can flee to somewhere he can be saved from the spell unless he was supposed to just run away on his own feet. Fixed by giving him a dose of sannish, spell resistance, or a stack of some kind of healing.
In the case of a single foe that's supposed to beat the party, contrivance aside, it's almost certainly a major boss encounter that -warrants- having a counter measure.

Given how very narrow a band of things are changed from the narrative/ game perspective and by how little, I just can't get behind the spell being a problem.


Uh uh. And how many monsters have Healing Belts standard? They only lost 3 actions in return for a single 1st level no-save spell you say? And the rest of the party did what now?

Monsters, very few. NPCs, quite a lot in my games, YMMV. None at encounter level 1, granted.

3 nonconsecutive actions, 1 or 2 of which may well have come -after- the fight was already over, depending on how things go over the course of that minute or so.

And in any case, that was one of several examples of the broader point: foiled by any substantial healing.




Which the standard party does, and the char-op party often does with some massive number of attacks. Now anything that enables sneak attacks can get a free pass because the party could have chosen to not take it, even if they do? I guess Power Word Pain was already fine because the party might not have a Sorcerer or Wizard, even though they do and are casting it. I would have expected an assumption that sneak attack is always on, which I think is pretty obviously incorrect when the game has monsters that are immune, but I could accept that as a difference in general power/optimization level at least.

Okay, either we can look at matters outside of the spell itself or we can't. Pick one. If the commonality of sneak attack must be considered for distract, commonality of immunity must be considered for pain.


You cannot balance things based on "it might not matter" or "the players are supposed to win anyway." You balance them based on the other things in the game and the expectations of combat.

Poppycock. Of course immunities and resistances have to be considered when balancing a game element, that's just a given. I don't know how anyone could seriously argue otherwise.


You say that PWP does not change the expectation of combat because the foe does not drop for a few rounds,

In part, yes.


I say that it completely changes it because the PCs need no success with offensive rolls

That depends rather quite a lot on what the foe is trying to accomplish in that time and how likely he is to succeed in the given time frame. In a typical encounter, that goal is the death of one or more PCs and the longer he gets the more likely his success. With avoiding death being a greater goal than destroying the enemy, in most combats, getting the foe down as fast as humanly possible still makes other offensive success a highly desirable event, even necessary if the foe was ever an actual threat.


and the foe can change nothing about the outcome.

This is just plain wrong. He can do nothing about his own impending doom but he very much -can- still effect the outcome for the PCs by achieving his own goal of killing one or more PCs or NPCs, destroying or activating a mcguffin, casting an important spell of his own (concentration check allowing), stalling the PCs so another NPC can escape, etc and so on. The target is not relieved of his ability to affect change on the world until the damage actually stacks up to a lethal degree between several rounds to a minute or more later.


Meanwhile PWP clearly violates even the vaguest of damage caps given in the DMG, in addition to all comparable spells of equal and even higher level. The players are supposed to win, but not every fight without fail and no significant pass/fail rolls.

Power words have always sat in a weird place wrt more common spell parameters. That the absolute damage value it does is as high as it is at the lowest levels is more than mitigated by the rate at which it does it. Frankly, the game could use a few more d6 per round 1st level spells that hold for most of a normal fight's length. Being reduced to plinking with darts or a crossbow after 3-5 rounds of being a mage sucks pretty hard.

And I really can't quite grasp how any of your argument even applies -at all- if the encounter has more than one foe. All of the power words are single-target spells.


I really don't know how it could be more blatant, this is pretty much the argument summary right here.

Reaction denial being pretty huge in its own right, particularly if there are a bunch of added immediate action abilities rather than just AoOs. In a higher op game, Distract's worth should if anything be more secure.

Like I said. It'd be worth a 3rd level slot for sure. Level 4? the only thing pushing it up is the HP cap on the target.


Yes, and quite a powerful one. Which is negated by a saving throw. +2 levels and a one round duration for ignoring a save is arguably a pretty sweet deal. Ray of Light is 6th and requires a touch attack for 1d4.

Except it's not -nearly- as good as blinding the foe permanently.

But that's neither here nor there. This thread is about pain not distract.


i don't know how many healing potions you expect a 1st level party to have. at my tables we are well above wbl, but still, by the time we get many healing potions, we're well past level 1.
Nor would i expect a 1st level party to have access to the black market, regardless of actual cost.
anyway, if the spell "merely" exhaust all the healing resources of the party, it's still bad design.

Probably around 2 CLW each before they make level 2, in case the cleric starts to run low or goes down. Why wouldn't you keep a few on-hand if you can afford it? That or have the rogue or wizard carryiing just one CLW for when the cleric goes down and the whole party splits the cost of a wand of CLW ASAP.

As I mentioned above, drugs have been used therapeutically for as long as we've known they were a thing. Sannish's side effect would more than warrant it being something a typical physician would be happy to have in his kit for patients that are terribly wounded or otherwise suffering greatly. A thing to be used sparingly, for sure, but not something I'd expect to be strictly black-market with no greater degree of addictiveness than it has.


That raises a question. If bad guy wizard gets initiative and casts power word pain on a pc, and then the pcs dog pile the bad guy wizard and kill the bad guy wizard, does power word pain stop operating or does it continue doing damage to the pc beyond the caster’s death?

As is the case with all spells, it's duration lasts as long as is stated in its spell description regardless of the state of the caster. Killing the caster will not save the target from an ongoing spell effect unless it has a duration of concentration.

[ericgrau]

In a simple fight it's pretty mediocre compared to other options because it's too slow. But you're not supposed to balance based on the common case, you're supposed to balance it on how people will best use it. And it is way too strong compared to core level 1 spells for hit and run or delay tactics. Which is how most halfway smart players will use it.

Level 1 you shouldn't be using a damage spell anyway. Levels 2-3 is when they catch up and get useful. That's when hitting sooner is stronger than hitting later, as the fight will be over before you get much damage. So 3d6 damage immediately or about 4d6-5d6 over time is fair. For typeless no save, no attack roll, more like 2d6 and 3d6-4d6. But if the party goes on the defensive, flees when hurt or even spends their time healing or stabilizing fallen allies in a tough fight, the damage gets to be too much. And these are not complicated concepts for even semi-rookies. Just slightly smarter players will flee immediately, and anything with less than a 60 foot speed will only be able to hit back part of the time. 30 foot not at all.

It's more akin to flaming sphere which is decent low level damage until you get 3rd level spells. Yeah it's fire, but not much is fire resistant at low level. Power word pain belongs at level 2. But I could see how other powerful splat-book 1st level spells could also belong at level 2. It's not the most broken thing ever. You won't get all 10 rounds without consequence, but you will get many rounds.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In a simple fight it's pretty mediocre compared to other options because it's too slow. But you're not supposed to balance based on the common case, you're supposed to balance it on how people will best use it. And it is way too strong compared to core level 1 spells for hit and run or delay tactics. Which is how most halfway smart players will use it.

Pretty sure you're gonna get pushback on "not supposed to balance on the common case."

That aside, players might -want- to use it for kiting but actually doing so is nearly impossible at level 1. By the time it is a viable option, PWP is fading fast.

It's doubtless stronger than most 1st level spells. I question "too strong" but I suppose that's been pretty obviously my thesis through the thread.


Level 1 you shouldn't be using a damage spell anyway.

I'll bite. What spells -do- you use at this level? Sleep and color spray are both solid but not much else at 1. Grease might let you disarm or trip somebody but with only a 1 round duration that's all it will do. And no matter what else you -might- do, aside from rendering them unconscious with the top-dogs, you -still- have to chew through their HP in most cases.


Levels 2-3 is when they catch up and get useful. That's when hitting sooner is stronger than hitting later, as the fight will be over before you get much damage. So 3d6 damage immediately or about 4d6-5d6 over time is fair. For typeless no save, no attack roll, more like 2d6 and 3d6-4d6.

Level 3, you get 3-5d6 out of an attakc spell that does all its damage up front, depending on whether you've pushed CL. A d6 a round for 5 -10 rounds at that point is -way- less attractive if you're going to bother doing damage at all now that BFC is an actual option. A rogue has decent odds of dropping 6d6 on the first round of combat if he's a dedicated damage dealer, whether by twf or rapid shot. He'll be doing the same 3d6 you are even if he's decided to focus on other aspects of his class. 1d6 a round falls away -fast- for level appropriate damage.

The damage is typless and has neither save nor attack roll but it -does- allow spell resistance, and has two tags that are common immunities at -every- level.


But if the party goes on the defensive, flees when hurt or even spends their time healing or stabilizing fallen allies in a tough fight, the damage gets to be too much. And these are not complicated concepts for even semi-rookies.

Defensive at levels 1-5 or so is not a viable tactic unless you're gonna go whole-hog with it. Effectively evasive is even harder.


Just slightly smarter players will flee immediately, and anything with less than a 60 foot speed will only be able to hit back part of the time. 30 foot not at all.

Best case, the caster drops PWP and then moves away on the same turn. He is, at most, 55 feet away unless he spent at least one round whacking himself with expeditious retreat or similar. That's close enough for just about anything to close on a double-move unless somebody or something is in the way. If the rest of the party knows what just happened and clears out, the caster is up a creek. Assuming none of them is actually slower than 30 feet, which is not at all unlikely at this level, they -might- be able to keep distance if the terrain allows it. A -lot- of stuff is faster than 30 feet and a lot of player races are slower at the lowest levels, nevermind the reach on large bipeds making it near impossible to move away without provoking.


It's more akin to flaming sphere which is decent low level damage until you get 3rd level spells. Yeah it's fire, but not much is fire resistant at low level. Power word pain belongs at level 2. But I could see how other powerful splat-book 1st level spells could also belong at level 2. It's not the most broken thing ever. You won't get all 10 rounds without consequence, but you will get many rounds.

I could see 2. Probably not 3 or higher.

[ericgrau]

Pretty sure you're gonna get pushback on "not supposed to balance on the common case."
You want the commonly used way for the spell not the commonly used way for all spells. Hence why I say even a rookie will inadvertently draw out a tough fight and get the more out of it.

We seem to be in agreement about the spell's level for its power anyway.

[King of Nowhere]

Probably around 2 CLW each before they make level 2, in case the cleric starts to run low or goes down. Why wouldn't you keep a few on-hand if you can afford it? That or have the rogue or wizard carryiing just one CLW for when the cleric goes down and the whole party splits the cost of a wand of CLW ASAP.

As I mentioned above, drugs have been used therapeutically for as long as we've known they were a thing. Sannish's side effect would more than warrant it being something a typical physician would be happy to have in his kit for patients that are terribly wounded or otherwise suffering greatly. A thing to be used sparingly, for sure, but not something I'd expect to be strictly black-market with no greater degree of addictiveness than it has.


well, in the last campaigns i did play, by the time you could return to market, sell your loot and buy the 2 clw potions each, you were level 2 already. and ok, having 6-7 potions to use in such a case is not too unlikely, but it's still a huge drain of their resources for what amounts to one single spell. i mean, ok, they face a sorceror with pwp, they kill the guy on round 2, then they can keep their mate alive with potions. compare it with the sorceror casting any other level 1 spell? it's a completely different level of effectiveness. or compare it with anything else a level 1 npc enemy could do to the party, barring a critical hit.
i just don't like that a wizard can doom someone else to die with a single first level spell without any chance at resisting it.

sannish is another matter. i was not familiar with it, but if it's not exotic, then it could actually make the spell ok in my book. Just like i accept forcecage as a no-save-no-resist effect because by the time it comes into play you are expected to have one use teleportation, then if sannish is common enough, it could make pwp acceptable.

[icefractal]

I don't think Sannish is common in most campaigns, being from a less-used book (BoVD). I'd forgotten entirely about it until this thread, for example.

I'd say the worst moment for the PCs being hit with this spell is 2nd/3rd level. At 1st, it's potentially deadly, but so are most things. At 3rd, 4x Kobold Sorcerer 1 is theoretically an easy fight ... but if they win initiative and hit everyone with PWP, it's going to be hard to keep up with that.