The Dread Conqueror: an Unoriginal build

[Unoriginal]

The Dread Conqueror


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"Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear."

- Legolas, the Return of the King

Fear is a powerful weapon, and there is many ways for D&D 5e characters to use it. As I was reading an article on the Siege of Gondor as described by Tolkien, and the role morale played in it, I couldn't help but think about this subject. Re-reading half-forgotten characpter options, I came across an unexpectedly interesting interaction of abilities, then began to wonder how to make it into a fun, viable build.

The result? the Dread Conqueror.


Special thanks to Legimus and their The Wall of Fear guide. While I ended up not using their advice, the informations about the uses of the Frightened conditions and the Conquest Paladin's powers helped me a lot, and let me define what I wanted this build to be about more clearly.

Multiclass: Paladin, Oath of Conquest and Monk, Way of the Long Death

The main combo:

Primary: Aura of Conquest and Hour of Reaping

Secondary: Sentinel and a whip.

Hour of Reaping, the 6th level Long Death Monk feature, is an at-will, no-ressource-dependent Action forcing each creature who can see you within 30ft to make a WIS save or be Frightened. Aura of Conquest, the 7th level Conquest Paladin feature, reduces the speed of all those Frightened by you to drop to 0 (as well as damaging those who start their turn here).

In other words, the character can not only make everyone who fails their save have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability check, but also root them in places when they're close enough, like a regular Conquest Paladin, but unlike a regular Conquest Paladin the Dread Conqueror can do this all day, every day.

Other benefits and strengths:

- If not using the main combo, the Dread Conqueror is still a competent, fairly mobile martial with divine magic and between 2 and 4 attacks (making them not helpless against enemies immune to the frightened condition).

- Long Death's powers don't require ki at that level, meaning the Dread Conqueror can spend it on dope Monk stuff.

- Guided Strike and Focused Aim can turn even a low attack roll into a hit.

- Aura of Protection can help with relatively low save mods, and mitigates the risk of your allies being frightened

- Touch of Death can help with relatively low HPs due to relatively low CON

- WIS and CHA for senses and social.

- If you have the stats for it, the Sentinel Feat can help add damage per round.

Cons and weaknesses:

- MAD and low number of ASIs, resulting in overall lower attack mods, AC, HPs, ability check and saves as most other characters of the same level, and little to no room for customization in that regard.

- Madness and multiclass means that aside from the main combo, neither of the classes/subclasses will be able to show their full power.

- Only one attack per round if using the combo.

- Unimpressive damage outside of Divine Smite or Smite spells

- Risk to frighten their own allies.

- Come online at lvl 13

Suggested level progression:

Lvls 1-7: Paladin Oath of Conquest 7, Lvls 8-13: Paladin Oath of Conquest 7/Monk Way of the Long Death 6. Afterward, it depends if you prefer an ASI for your ASI-starved character or Stillness of Mind and Evasion as additional protective measures

Suggested Stats:

As a Paladin-Monk multiclass, DEX, WIS and CHA are your key stats. WIS is extremely important for the combo this build is based on, while DEX is crucial for the regular fighting and defense. But if CHA adds a more than welcome punch to your Paladin powers, I wouldn't call it as important for this build than it is for your typical Conquest Paladin (although still important in the early levels).

Important thing to note is that Paladins require 13 in STR to multiclass (thanks Dalinar for reminding me).

CON on the other hand is less important as one might think. Especially if one goes further in the Monk levels.

Suggested Race:

Mechanically, speaking, anything works as long as you can have good DEX, WIS and CHA.

On the side of thematic and fun, many species fit. Bugbears are the masters of fear, Drows have the whip-and-dread style, Hobgoblins the "intimidating commander" one. A Balrog-themed tiefling could be great, and a Tabaxi interesting. A Scourge Aasimar fits thematically as the terrifying kind of angel (and can let you increase your aura's damage). And what's more 80's saturday morning cartoon villain than a scary Yuan-ti?


Conclusion:

I didn't know what I would end up with when I started working on the Dread Conqueror, but I am glad I did it. Especially due to how thematic they ended up being: the Dread Master, while no slouch in a straight fight, is never going to be as traditionally powerful as their peers, just like so many fictional character whose powers are based on terrifying others. Yet the dread they inspire is a more than adequate equalizer. In other words, as is often the aesope when such characters appear, the only thing to fear is fear itself.



Commentaries, criticisms and further ideas are welcome.

[Renduaz]

I like any build that has special mechanics attached to it rather than just damage bumps or a list of skill/party role quantities, so this is a good addition.I do wonder though if there might be ways to reduce the cons of the concept by going classic Sorcadin in exchange for infinity.

For example the Fear spell amusingly causes all creatures affected by it to spend their action Dashing away, but because their speed is 0, they waste their turn on nothing. It does expend a 3rd level slot for each save though,yet we have sorcery points. Can also use Heightened Spell to impose disadvantage on the saves or distant spell to affect more creatures.

It's also a shame that so many creatures at higher levels have frightened immunities.

[Dalinar]

I love the concept, but feel compelled to point out one thing:


I would say STR can safely be used as a dump stat, however (as much as it pains me to say it). CON is also less important as one might think.

You can't truly "dump" Strength as it's one of the required stats to multiclass with a Paladin. So you need a minimum STR, CHA, WIS, and DEX of 13 just to be legal. Assuming we get all those with point buy, we have 7 more points to play with (before accounting for racial stat increases). This might be one of those "ask your DM for a favor" instances, though, since you are correct that STR doesn't do much for ya.

Given a +2/+1 race, I might do something like 13 STR, 14+2 DEX, 11+1 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, 13 CHA. Obviously they can be swapped around a little to taste, but not as much as I'd like.

Come to think of it, given you need four stats to make the build work, maybe non-variant Human is actually worth it for this one? You could sacrifice the +1 CON mod to be able to get another +1 in WIS that way. Final point buy w/human included looks like 13 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 9 INT, 16 WIS, 13 CHA. Could accomplish something similar with a +2/+2 or +2/+1/+1 race.

[Unoriginal]

You can't truly "dump" Strength as it's one of the required stats to multiclass with a Paladin. So you need a minimum STR, CHA, WIS, and DEX of 13 just to be legal.

Oh, great point, thanks. I forgot to re-check the multiclass requirements. I'll edit the OP.

I knew there was one more reason why I wasn't impressed with DEX Paladins usually.


Given a +2/+1 race, I might do something like 13 STR, 14+2 DEX, 11+1 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, 13 CHA. Obviously they can be swapped around a little to taste, but not as much as I'd like.

Come to think of it, given you need four stats to make the build work, maybe non-variant Human is actually worth it for this one? You could sacrifice the +1 CON mod to be able to get another +1 in WIS that way. Final point buy w/human included looks like 13 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 9 INT, 16 WIS, 13 CHA. Could accomplish something similar with a +2/+2 or +2/+1/+1 race.

Honestly I'd consider dropping CON entirely, just to see the result.

EDIT:

After re-examining the numbers, going to Paladin 12 for Aura of Courage (making your allies immunized to your frightening power), Improved Smite and a fourth ASI would be pretty worthwhile.

Another thing to consider: maybe the Sentinel part just isn't worth it. The Aura of Conquest doesn't deal much damage, but it still deals damage, and the ASI can be put to good uses elsewhere.

Scourge Aasimar is both thematic and mechanically useful if you want 10 rounds of super-cook-the-enemies-where-they-stand.

[stoutstien]

Cool concept. Would be a blast in a heavy humanoid focused game where fear immunity wouldn't shut it down as soon as it really starts trucking.

I have something similar floating around using warlock instead of monk. Hexblade would be more powerful but I couldn't help using GOO for the creepy unworldly vibe.

[Unoriginal]

Cool concept. Would be a blast in a heavy humanoid focused game where fear immunity wouldn't shut it down as soon as it really starts trucking.

Thanks!

I'm not sure how much immunity to Frightened would affect this build's efficiency at lvl 12+, because while it's true a good number of powerful foes have it, most minions don't, and the AoE effect is much more significant on groups of minions than on big solo enemies.



I have something similar floating around using warlock instead of monk. Hexblade would be more powerful but I couldn't help using GOO for the creepy unworldly vibe.

I thought about using the Warlock too, but as it turns out, Warlocks aren't particularly great at inflicting the Frightened condition.

Which is surprising IMO, you'd think WotC would have made a Warlock subclass about being scary by now.

[stoutstien]

I thought about using the Warlock too, but as it turns out, Warlocks aren't particularly great at inflicting the Frightened condition.

I gravitated towards warlock for access to short rest recharge for more fear, particularly wrathful smite, and secondary control options with aoe spells and grip+ lance EB. They are oddly bad a fear passed getting the basics spells.

I need to update this guy with Tasha. Spirit shroud is looking good. To bad the new summons don't mesh up to allow their fear effects to work with AoC.

[Sception]

For example the Fear spell amusingly causes all creatures affected by it to spend their action Dashing away, but because their speed is 0, they waste their turn on nothing.

This is not a universal interpretation of the interaction, and is not the interpretation supported by 'Sage Advice', the semi-official 5e Q&A.

The relevant line of the FEAR spell reads:

"While Frightened by this spell, a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move."

English is ambivalent in this case, but it is at least possible to read "unless" clause as applying to the entire preceding clause, including the requirement to take the dash action. In my experience this is the more common reading, in my opinion it's the more correct reading, and it's the reading endorsed by Sage Advice, making it the most official reading, though to be fair sage advice does not have the weight of errata and it's not difficult to find contradictory or just incorrect sage advice rulings elsewhere, so if you want to ignore it you certainly can.

Regardless, at best you should expect table variation on this point, and be prepared for DMs who say a FEAR-ed target trapped in a conqueror's aura cannot move anywhere, and thus has "nowhere to move", and thus is not required to take the Dash action. It's still a powerful combo. Unlike other frighten effects, targets trapped by the combo don't get to make any sort of save to avoid it while they're stuck, and if the conqueror would prefer they spend their actions to dash away they can always move out of aura range and just let the normal effects of FEAR take over. But the combo isn't ~necessarily~ the "AoE single save or perma-stun" that you suggest.

.....

Per the build in question:


Lvls 1-7: Paladin Oath of Conquest 7, Lvls 8-11: Paladin Oath of Conquest 7/Monk Way of the Long Death 6. Afterward, it depends if you prefer an ASI for your ASI-starved character or Stillness of Mind and Evasion as additional protective measures

Last I checked, 7 + 6 = 13, not 11. So the build doesn't turn on until level 13 at the lowest, and just getting the key components will take all those levels. Even at level 13, you're still looking at a build that needs high wisdom and dexterity, and at least decent strength, constitution, and charisma, but only has two ASIs at that point. That's a heck of a hurdle to clear.

Don't get me wrong, Aura of Conquest + Hour of Reaping is an amazing combo once you can pull it off, but the extreme MADness and not activating until level 13 is a heck of a hurdle to clear. It's a build I could in theory see myself playing and even really enjoying, but only in a campaign that started at level 14 or later, and even then only if the campaign uses rolled stats and I happen to roll extremely well. Between those conditions, ime that adds up to approximately 0% of campaigns.

[da newt]

Would Tasha's Summon Undead for the Ghostly spirit's touch synergize with this build's Warlock version?

Deathly Touch (Ghostly Only) Melee Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 1d8 + 3 + the spell’s level necrotic damage, and the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC or be frightened of the undead until the end of the target’s next turn.

I'd think this could be a great use of a spell slot for a Hexblade Conquest Pali but I haven't really thought it through in depth ...

[stoutstien]

Would Tasha's Summon Undead for the Ghostly spirit's touch synergize with this build's Warlock version?

Deathly Touch (Ghostly Only) Melee Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 1d8 + 3 + the spell’s level necrotic damage, and the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC or be frightened of the undead until the end of the target’s next turn.

I'd think this could be a great use of a spell slot for a Hexblade Conquest Pali but I haven't really thought it through in depth ...

Unfortunately AoC only works i the target is frightened from the paladin not other sources.

[Dork_Forge]

Nice concept, I have to point out here the Leonin as they're pretty perfect for this:

Daunting Roar: As a bonus action, you can let out an especially menacing roar. Creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you that can hear you must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you until the end of your next turn. The DC of the save equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier. Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Bonus action means you keep your Extra Attack, it's available from 1st level, and beinf a short rest recharge, means that you'll pretty much always have your schtick available.

[Unoriginal]

Last I checked, 7 + 6 = 13, not 11.

Thanks for pointing that out.


Even at level 13, you're still looking at a build that needs high wisdom and dexterity, and at least decent strength, constitution, and charisma, but only has two ASIs at that point.

Well Constitution is not essential for that build.



That's a heck of a hurdle to clear.

Don't get me wrong, Aura of Conquest + Hour of Reaping is an amazing combo once you can pull it off, but the extreme MADness and not activating until level 13 is a heck of a hurdle to clear. It's a build I could in theory see myself playing and even really enjoying, but only in a campaign that started at level 14 or later, and even then only if the campaign uses rolled stats and I happen to roll extremely well. Between those conditions, ime that adds up to approximately 0% of campaigns.

Oh, I agree, the Dread Commander is definitively in the "awesome, but impractical" category.

Though I personally would be more indulgent on the stat requirement, I 100% understand it's not to everyone's taste.


Nice concept, I have to point out here the Leonin as they're pretty perfect for this:

Daunting Roar: As a bonus action, you can let out an especially menacing roar. Creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you that can hear you must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you until the end of your next turn. The DC of the save equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier. Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Bonus action means you keep your Extra Attack, it's available from 1st level, and beinf a short rest recharge, means that you'll pretty much always have your schtick available.

A Leonin Conquest Paladin is powerful and awesome (especially with the Noble Background), and among my suggested races any time someone which one would fit a Conquest Paladin.

Sadly the Leonin would make for a poor Dread Conqueror, since Daunting Roar is a) based on CON b) the short rest recharge means you'll have access to it once every two-three fights.

[Dork_Forge]

A Leonin Conquest Paladin is powerful and awesome (especially with the Noble Background), and among my suggested races any time someone which one would fit a Conquest Paladin.

Sadly the Leonin would make for a poor Dread Commander, since Daunting Roar is a) based on CON b) the short rest recharge means you'll have access to it once every two-three fights.

Eh, a matter of perspective:

a) The MADness of this build isn't going to yield high DCs regardless what ability you're using, you're going to have at least a +1 Con, and it'll scale with prof. Since it's a bonus action and an independent resource, unless there's better races why not?

b) It's an additional tool, not the only tool. You're just getting an additional fear effect every short rest on top of what your build was already doing, and this let's you build the dread aspect from 1st level.

[DarknessEternal]

How many things are you fighting at level 13 that aren't immune to frightened?

Very few.

[Unoriginal]

The MADness of this build isn't going to yield high DCs regardless what ability you're using

That's debatable. You can have a 18 in WIS by the time you get Hour of Reaping.


you're going to have at least a +1 Con

Not sure what you mean by that.


Since it's a bonus action and an independent resource, unless there's better races why not?

I suppose the Leonin helps with not having your CON too low and let you transform a 12 into the 13 in STR you need, and the Daunting Roar makes the Conquest Paladin portion of the build a bit more powerful.

But still I wouldn't recommend it.


b) It's an additional tool, not the only tool. You're just getting an additional fear effect every short rest on top of what your build was already doing, and this let's you build the dread aspect from 1st level.

Which is why the Leonin is awesome for regular Conquest Paladins.

EDIT:


How many things are you fighting at level 13 that aren't immune to frightened?

Very few.

Genuine question: which things that are immune to Frightened are you fighting at level 13?

[Dork_Forge]

That's debatable. You can have a 18 in WIS by the time you get Hour of Reaping.

You're 13th level by the time Hour of Reaping comes online, should you really be building around a feature that high?

What's your suggested stat line for this anyway? Your proposed progression only gives you two ASIs by 13th, so things will be tight...

[QUOTE]Not sure what you mean by that.

That you'll want to have a +1 Con regardless of Daunting Roar, for general build concerns. So you'll start off with a DC11 save, and it'll auto scale from there (though a +2 Con would really be desireable imo), it isn't that far off what you'd be getting from the Paladin and Monk abilities.


Which is why the Leonin is awesome for regular Conquest Paladins.

Worth bearing in mind that your at will fear isn't coming in until 13th level, how often are you actually using fear effects before then? Once a short rest...

[micahaphone]

I remember a build contest thread (that I of course can't find anymore) where someone suggested the same combo, trying to emulate a venture bros character. I'm trying to remember if they snuck a feat into the build to make it work better

[stoutstien]

[QUOTE=Unoriginal;24988222]That's debatable. You can have a 18 in WIS by the time you get Hour of Reaping.

You're 13th level by the time Hour of Reaping comes online, should you really be building around a feature that high?

What's your suggested stat line for this anyway? Your proposed progression only gives you two ASIs by 13th, so things will be tight...



That you'll want to have a +1 Con regardless of Daunting Roar, for general build concerns. So you'll start off with a DC11 save, and it'll auto scale from there (though a +2 Con would really be desireable imo), it isn't that far off what you'd be getting from the Paladin and Monk abilities.



Worth bearing in mind that your at will fear isn't coming in until 13th level, how often are you actually using fear effects before then? Once a short rest...

I always figured wrathful smite is the bread n butter for conquest pallys. Tempted to see if one could sneak battle master 3 for short rest fear on hit 4-5 times a SR.

[x3n0n]

I remember a build contest thread (that I of course can't find anymore) where someone suggested the same combo, trying to emulate a venture bros character. I'm trying to remember if they snuck a feat into the build to make it work better

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618918-5e-Throwdowns-7-Against-the-Grain-(unusual-combinations)

[Waazraath]

Nice, thnx for sharing!

[Unoriginal]

You're 13th level by the time Hour of Reaping comes online, should you really be building around a feature that high

From a practicality standpoint, I really shouldn't.


What's your suggested stat line for this anyway? Your proposed progression only gives you two ASIs by 13th, so things will be tight...

I wrote my suggestion regarding the stats in the OP. If you're asking how I would to optimize it, and if I absolutely had to optimize the stats as much as possible, for 1rst level point buy I would go regular Human and :

STR 13, DEX 16, CON 9, INT 9, WIS 16, CHA 14

Which would become, after the lvl 11 ASI:

STR 13, DEX 18, CON 9, INT 9, WIS 18, CHA 14

But I'm not an optimizer.




That you'll want to have a +1 Con regardless of Daunting Roar, for general build concerns.

Ah, I see. I don't agree with that assertion, but it's true most people would want CON at least that high.



Worth bearing in mind that your at will fear isn't coming in until 13th level, how often are you actually using fear effects before then? Once a short rest...

Well the Conquest Paladin still has access to Wrathful Smites and their Conquering presence, that's a lot more than once a short rest.


I remember a build contest thread (that I of course can't find anymore) where someone suggested the same combo, trying to emulate a venture bros character. I'm trying to remember if they snuck a feat into the build to make it work better


https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618918-5e-Throwdowns-7-Against-the-Grain-(unusual-combinations)

Welp, it seems I was somewhat reinventing the wheel (of fear).

Thanks for pointing that out.


Tempted to see if one could sneak battle master 3 for short rest fear on hit 4-5 times a SR.

A Battlemaster Fighter/Conquest Paladin would have a lot more stat synergy, it's definitively a worthwhile multiclass. Go Leonin and you have a ton of fear effects.

[Dork_Forge]

I wrote my suggestion regarding the stats in the OP. If you're asking how I would to optimize it, and if I absolutely had to optimize the stats as much as possible, for 1rst level point buy I would go regular Human and :

STR 13, DEX 16, CON 9, INT 9, WIS 16, CHA 14

Which would become, after the lvl 11 ASI:

STR 13, DEX 18, CON 9, INT 9, WIS 18, CHA 14

I meant a stat array yes.

A bold statline, I'm sure that Aid and Lay on Hands can help to some degree, but I imagine that this character will have a tough time things (melee based with poor hp and -1 on Con saves). Worth mentioning that you're will probably end up losing concentration on Wrathful Smite from time to time when you don't hit.


Ah, I see. I don't agree with that assertion, but it's true most people would want CON at least that high.

It makes sense from a mechanical and RP point of view (negative Con makes a character kind of sickly, stretches belief they'd become an adventurer a little), but different strokes.


Well the Conquest Paladin still has access to Wrathful Smites and their Conquering presence, that's a lot more than once a short rest.

I'd forgotten about Wrathful Smite (you might want to include it in the OP, it's not mentioned at all in the thread until Stoutstien mentions it a few replies in).

If you dedicate your resources to those things, then you can muddle through with a decent amount of fear effects throughout the day from about 3rd level onwards (bit tight at this point). Though your own notes for the character mention Guided Strike and Divine Smite, so I assume that the main schtick is sharing resources with damage dealing to some extent.


Seems like it would be a fun concept to play out though, especially playing up high mobility and stealth to be the thing that goes bump in the night.

[Unoriginal]

I meant a stat array yes.

A bold statline, I'm sure that Aid and Lay on Hands can help to some degree, but I imagine that this character will have a tough time things (melee based with poor hp and -1 on Con saves). Worth mentioning that you're will probably end up losing concentration on Wrathful Smite from time to time when you don't hit.

Quite true, I imagine the early levels would play kind of like a Bard, except instead of being inspiring you whip or glaive people (weapon depends if you use a shield or not) to debuff them and then stay away from danger.

I think I should mention once you can Dedicate a weapon with your Monk training, two-handing a longsword is a pretty neat option.



It makes sense from a mechanical and RP point of view (negative Con makes a character kind of sickly, stretches belief they'd become an adventurer a little), but different strokes.

This is something I like about this build: objectively speaking you can take them on and beat them up... if you can fight off the fear first.



Though your own notes for the character mention Guided Strike and Divine Smite, so I assume that the main schtick is sharing resources with damage dealing to some extent.

Mostly as ways to compensate for the build's weaknesses. The Dread Conqueror can mitigates most of them to an extent.



Seems like it would be a fun concept to play out though, especially playing up high mobility and stealth to be the thing that goes bump in the night.

Indeed, it'd be definitively impractical mechanically but man I would like to try so much.

[Greywander]

This is definitely a neat idea, and theoretically a very broken combo, especially when combined with Aura of Courage so that allies aren't affected, but it is extremely MAD. The MADness gets a lot better, though, if (a) you ignore multiclass stat requirements (i.e. you can dump STR to 8), and (b) you let monk and paladin key off the same stat, i.e. either a WIS paladin or a CHA monk. Mental stats are fairly interchangeable when it comes to class features like spellcasting and such, so in theory it should be fine to have a paladin who uses WIS rather than CHA, or a monk who uses CHA rather than WIS. The fact that we're wanting to mix these two classes might cause some DMs to reject swapping stats when otherwise they would have allowed it for a straight paladin or straight monk.

If a DM did allow you to ignore multiclass restrictions and use the same stat for both classes, then this would definitely be an interesting combo to try. The main issue is that it doesn't come online until very late, needing at least 13 levels to get both Aura of Conquest and Hour of Reaping, and longer to also get Aura of Courage. My feeling is that this would be a fun combo if you're starting at a higher level, but if starting at 1st level it might be quite the slog to get there.

Alternatively, you might bring this build out in a gestalt game, where this build comes online as early as 7th level. For a gestalt character, you'll definitely want to take paladin to 18 so that the aura will expand to cover the same area as Hour of Reaping, and at that point you might as well take paladin to 20 for the capstone. For your remaining levels, you might drop 11 into fighter for three attacks (that all benefit from Improved Divine Smite), though not sure which subclass. Two levels in rogue gives you some things to do with your bonus action. Interestingly, neither Hour of Reaping nor Aura of Conquest require the enemies to be able to see you in order to function, though you do lose the benefits of the frightened condition itself if you're hidden from the enemies.

[strangebloke]

Just chipping in my 2 CP but if people are talking about Leonin, why not bring up dragonborn and the Draconic fear feat? Although leonin roar is a bonus action and draconic fear is an action, draconic fear has a couple of bonuses that imo make it better for this build even considering the (half)feat investment.

Its CHA based, not CON based
still a SR resource
dragon fear effect lasts a minute rather than a single round
unless the enemy takes damage, the enemy only gets one chance to save against this spell. If they fail, they're afraid for a full minute or until your enemies kill them. No concentration checks, no line of sight requirements after the original use, no repeat saves at the end of turn for free.
30 foot radius of effect rather than 10 foot.
dragonborn is just a better race for this build since it only improves stats that you actually need.

With 27 point buy you can pretty easily start off with 14/14/10/8/14/15 after racials. You wear medium armor initially and grab defense style for 20 AC. Then you get dragon fear at level 4 and bump CHA up to 16, which means that at level 7 you will have two SR-replenishing resources that can hit a 30 foot radius and debuff a whole battlefield for a minute. Then buff WIS to 16 as well at level 11.

Though tbh, I would honestly just ignore DEX as much as possible. There's no reason to focus on it for this build over strength, since you're not actually using any of Monk's class features besides hour of reaping. Just go 16/13/9/8/14/15 right from the start and use heavy armor. You'll feel a lot tougher and better able to deal damage for no real downside.

[stoutstien]

Just chipping in my 2 CP but if people are talking about Leonin, why not bring up dragonborn and the Draconic fear feat? Although leonin roar is a bonus action and draconic fear is an action, draconic fear has a couple of bonuses that imo make it better for this build even considering the (half)feat investment.

Its CHA based, not CON based
still a SR resource
dragon fear effect lasts a minute rather than a single round
unless the enemy takes damage, the enemy only gets one chance to save against this spell. If they fail, they're afraid for a full minute or until your enemies kill them. No concentration checks, no line of sight requirements after the original use, no repeat saves at the end of turn for free.
30 foot radius of effect rather than 10 foot.
dragonborn is just a better race for this build since it only improves stats that you actually need.

With 27 point buy you can pretty easily start off with 14/14/10/8/14/15 after racials. You wear medium armor initially and grab defense style for 20 AC. Then you get dragon fear at level 4 and bump CHA up to 16, which means that at level 7 you will have two SR-replenishing resources that can hit a 30 foot radius and debuff a whole battlefield for a minute. Then buff WIS to 16 as well at level 11.

Though tbh, I would honestly just ignore DEX as much as possible. There's no reason to focus on it for this build over strength, since you're not actually using any of Monk's class features besides hour of reaping. Just go 16/13/9/8/14/15 right from the start and use heavy armor. You'll feel a lot tougher and better able to deal damage for no real downside.

The dragonborn feat is... okay. the big catch is that it explicitly breaks on damage which your aura will do automatically.

[Unoriginal]

Just chipping in my 2 CP but if people are talking about Leonin, why not bring up dragonborn and the Draconic fear feat? Although leonin roar is a bonus action and draconic fear is an action, draconic fear has a couple of bonuses that imo make it better for this build even considering the (half)feat investment.

Its CHA based, not CON based
still a SR resource
dragon fear effect lasts a minute rather than a single round
unless the enemy takes damage, the enemy only gets one chance to save against this spell. If they fail, they're afraid for a full minute or until your enemies kill them. No concentration checks, no line of sight requirements after the original use, no repeat saves at the end of turn for free.
30 foot radius of effect rather than 10 foot.
dragonborn is just a better race for this build since it only improves stats that you actually need.

With 27 point buy you can pretty easily start off with 14/14/10/8/14/15 after racials. You wear medium armor initially and grab defense style for 20 AC. Then you get dragon fear at level 4 and bump CHA up to 16, which means that at level 7 you will have two SR-replenishing resources that can hit a 30 foot radius and debuff a whole battlefield for a minute. Then buff WIS to 16 as well at level 11.

I don't recommend Dragon Fear for the Dread Commander because Hour of Reaping is superior except for the Action investment.

1 min duration is nice, but as you said the enemy gets another saving throw when they take damages , and Frightened enemies take damage from being near the Conquest Paladin, so factually those who are close will get as many saves as with Hour of Reaping.

For a regular Conquest Paladin who got more ASIs, it's a feat to consider, sure.



Though tbh, I would honestly just ignore DEX as much as possible. There's no reason to focus on it for this build over strength, since you're not actually using any of Monk's class features besides hour of reaping. Just go 16/13/9/8/14/15 right from the start and use heavy armor. You'll feel a lot tougher and better able to deal damage for no real downside.

Not using the Monk's class features would make that character a 13th level Paladin with poor health, the spell slots of an 7th level Paladin, and attacks unremarkable in both number and damage output. Maybe with a Stunning Strike here and there that your foes are likely to save against.

The Dread Conqueror build does use the Monk's class features for added mobility, attacks and general survivability.

[strangebloke]

The dragonborn feat is... okay. the big catch is that it explicitly breaks on damage which your aura will do automatically.
within ten feet they get a save when they take damage, which at a pace of 1/round is equivalent to hour of reaping and the CD option. Outside the aura everyone is debuffed with no recourse whatsoever except to intentionally damage themselves.

I don't recommend Dragon Fear for the Dread Commander because Hour of Reaping is superior except for the Action investment.

1 min duration is nice, but as you said the enemy gets another saving throw when they take damages , and Frightened enemies take damage from being near the Conquest Paladin, so those who are close will get as many saves as with Hour of Reaping. Moreover the damage taken is on their turn, so if you're careful with positioning you wont really be granting saves to anyone you don't want to focus damage on.

For a regular Conquest Paladin who got more ASIs, it's a feat to consider, sure.

I'm aware of this, but hour of reaping is a 13th level class feature so if you're starting at an earlier level its nice to have a way to do the thing your character is thematically centered around before then. Plus there are some advantages, mostly that people outside the AOE of your aura but within 30 feet don't get repeat saves.

Ultimately though I was comparing it to Leonin's roar. I do agree that going dragonborn and grabbing a feat is a detour from the build.


Not using the Monk's class features would make that character a 13th level Paladin with poor health, the spell slots of an 7th level Paladin, and attacks unremarkable in both number and damage output. Maybe with a Stunning Strike here and there that your foes are likely to save against.

The Dread Conqueror build does use the Monk's class features for added mobility, attacks and general survivability.

I would tend to argue that if you're completely dumping CON and fighting in melee you kind of need to have good AC and I'd never call 17 AC 'good' at 8th level. Going with heavy armor lets you have 21 AC at the same level, and all you lose is your BA martial arts attack. You can still use all your ki abilities, including flurry for 2*(1+STR) or 2*(1d8+STR) if you grab unarmed, which puts your damage output higher than the DEX focused build at the same level. You still get evasion, you still get deflect missiles (though not if you're going sword and board admittedly).

When you get to level 11 the tradeoff looks a little better since that BA attack is now dealing 6 instead of 5 and the AC differential is only 3 instead of 4, but once again, I think the hardest thing about this build is that your character is just 100% going to die before reaching 13th level. Focusing Strength alleviates some of that burden.

Though maybe the whole point is just to build a fragile-looking man who's just oddly terrifying and unkillable.

[stoutstien]

within ten feet they get a save when they take damage, which at a pace of 1/round is equivalent to hour of reaping and the CD option. Outside the aura everyone is debuffed with no recourse whatsoever except to intentionally damage themselves.


I'm aware of this, but hour of reaping is a 13th level class feature so if you're starting at an earlier level its nice to have a way to do the thing your character is thematically centered around before then. Plus there are some advantages, mostly that people outside the AOE of your aura but within 30 feet don't get repeat saves.

Ultimately though I was comparing it to Leonin's roar. I do agree that going dragonborn and grabbing a feat is a detour from the build.



I would tend to argue that if you're completely dumping CON and fighting in melee you kind of need to have good AC and I'd never call 17 AC 'good' at 8th level. Going with heavy armor lets you have 21 AC at the same level, and all you lose is your BA martial arts attack. You can still use all your ki abilities, including flurry for 2*(1+STR) or 2*(1d8+STR) if you grab unarmed, which puts your damage output higher than the DEX focused build at the same level. You still get evasion, you still get deflect missiles (though not if you're going sword and board admittedly).

When you get to level 11 the tradeoff looks a little better since that BA attack is now dealing 6 instead of 5 and the AC differential is only 3 instead of 4, but once again, I think the hardest thing about this build is that your character is just 100% going to die before reaching 13th level. Focusing Strength alleviates some of that burden.

Though maybe the whole point is just to build a fragile-looking man who's just oddly terrifying and unkillable.

Mia culpa. For some reason I swore it was break on damage. That makes it a decent feat if not for anything but the concentration free debuff until you damage them once a SR.

[Unoriginal]

Mmmh, Shadow Touched with Cause Fear could let you Wisdom-cast with the Paladin's spell slots. That could be interesting...

[Avigor]

- Only one attack per round if using the combo.

How do you attack with this, when Hour of Reaping takes your action (presuming you're not dropping it due to a fear-immune enemy)? You're not taking the attack action which rules out the vast majority of bonus action damage options; are you using Spiritual Weapon or maybe just relying on reactions?

Or is the goal to just have enemies melting into puddles of quivering jelly from sheer fear as they slowly die from psychic damage over a dozen turns? Cause that is admittedly sadistically hilarious lol

[Unoriginal]

How do you attack with this, when Hour of Reaping takes your action (presuming you're not dropping it due to a fear-immune enemy)? You're not taking the attack action which rules out the vast majority of bonus action damage options; are you using Spiritual Weapon or maybe just relying on reactions?

Idea was to use Sentinel to attack as a Reaction if the enemies did try to attack your allies still, but I edited that part because Sentinel's not the best use of an ASI for this build and forgot to edit what you quoted to reflect that.



Or is the goal to just have enemies melting into puddles of quivering jelly from sheer fear as they slowly die from psychic damage over a dozen turns? Cause that is admittedly sadistically hilarious lol

That's part of the idea, yeah. But ideally your allies deal with the terrified enemies you're debuffing, immobilizing and wounding, because otherwise it takes too long.

[x3n0n]

Idea was to use Sentinel to attack as a Reaction if the enemies did try to attack your allies still, but I edited that part because Sentinel's not the best use of an ASI for this build and forgot to edit what you quoted to reflect that.



That's part of the idea, yeah. But ideally your allies deal with the terrified enemies you're debuffing, immobilizing and wounding, because otherwise it takes too long.

If you happen to have access to it, you can bleed them to death with a Scimitar of Speed. :)

[Unoriginal]

If you happen to have access to it, you can bleed them to death with a Scimitar of Speed. :)

Thank you a lot!

That would be very useful indeed. I was certain the Scimitar of Speed required you to use the Attack action to get the bonus attack, but you're 100% right that you can actually just attack with a bonus action regardless of what you spend your action on.

Maybe I should write my "The Arsenal of Fear" section for the magic items and other gears useful for this build, after all...