A level 6 Infinite Concentration spells combo? ( Bottled Respite + Glyph of Warding )

[Renduaz]

If my work has borne any fruit at all, the Genie Warlock's Bottled Respite should be well known by now as one of the most broken 1st level, or frankly any level feature around considering all you can do with it, yet I somehow missed ( And seemingly eso did everyone else ) what could be one of the most broken uses to ever grace DND 5E.

And I am approaching this cautiously, since there's a bit of ambiguity and I understand something like this will be under intense examination, but from my understanding of the RAW and RAI, it should work. The trick is quite simple - You stack a bunch of floor spots or objects with Glyph of Warding ( Spell Glyph ) and trigger all of them when nearby to gain an infinite amount of concentration spells durations without concentrating ( Yes, it works like that ) or non-concentration buffs or instant heals for that matter.

This can already be cheesed with a Demiplane by the way, a fact that is strangely enough rarely registered in most spellcaster nova builds clutching at every straw for extra boosts, and I've been guilty of that in some of my build posts too. You can leave glyphs in a Demiplane, cast the spell with one action, walk in the door, and exit with every single stacking effect on your spell list.

But can we go even lower level? I've seen discussions online of players previously trying this with magical items like Bag of Holding which has been ruled out for both true reasons, I.E moving glyph items in and out of the bag is against the RAW, but also for false assumptions that were in fact debunked by Sage Advice. Meanwhile a consensus exists that you could achieve it with an item like Portable Hole (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/113708/can-a-portable-hole-be-used-to-get-around-the-10-movement-restriction-on-glyph) as long as the glyphs remain where they were cast within the extradimensional space.

Which is the right call regarding the RAW by the way, but still requires a very specific magical item. Bottled Respite, on the other hand, is a level 1 class feature that functions under the same principles, and I'll share some clarifications as to why other than the obvious similarities, starting with some fundamental premises:


The official ruling from Sage Advice Compendium

"Are extradimensional spaces, such as a demiplane or the space created by rope trick, considered to be on a different plane of existence?"

"An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes. Therefore, if youÂ’re on the Material Plane and your foe is in an extradimensional space, the two of you arenÂ’t on the same plane of existence."

Jeremy Crawford:

"If two people are on different planes of existence, they are infinitely far away from each other. For example, if I'm on the Material Plane and you're on the Ethereal Plane, we're not within 30 feet of each other."



Extradimensional spaces are always outside of other planes, and separate from them. Secondly, things which exist on separate planes are always infinitely far away, and your or anything's three-dimensional position on one plane is not relative to the position of anything in another, even if you might intuitively assume so.

So keep in mind that when you teleport inside the 'interior' of the Genie's Vessel, with the physical object/lamp acting as a 'portal key' to activate the planar shift, you are no longer on the Prime, and are infinitely far away from whichever patch of dirt you formerly stood on and infinitely far away from the Vessel's physical exterior back on the prime, and much like a Demiplane, the space you see is relative only to itself.

So you can be reassured that when casting a Glyph inside the Vessel, and someone moves the exterior back on the Prime, it isn't broken just because the exterior was moved 10 feet away from its last position in the Prime. You never cast the spell while standing in that position anyway, and the extradimensional space is infinitely far away from any position on other planes. By the way, same reason you won't mess up your whole decor by turning a vessel upside down and shaking it ( Psst, there's nothing really physically there ).

You might wonder if you are moving the entire plane by moving the vessel, but as demonstrated just above, it isn't the case first of all. Rotating the vessel has no effect, gravity on the Prime has no effect and you can't feel any g-forces by the vessel travelling at high speeds, as long as it doesn't break.

This is, again, because the space, despite its name, is extradimensional to 3D Prime space and exists infinitely far away and outside of the prime rather than inside, per RAW. Either way, the trajectory of whole planes usually isn't considered relevant for the purposes of spells like these. I mean, Toril doesn't even encompass the Prime and yet its Solar Orbit doesn't count, if only beause anything you put on it is atttacted to its center of gravity, and extradimensional spaces have their own gravity sources.

Armed with the judgement of the Compendium and Crawford's definitive statements, RAW is seemingly covered, which means we can use our action on Bottled Respite, get empowered by the might of up to every duration spell in our whole goddamn spell list as long as the effects don't overlap like temp HP, and pop back out into battle. I dub this sequence as 'The Avatar of Mystra' or 'Apotheosis Combo'. And its available to any caster with a level of Genielock.

Even if someone tries to dispel it, they can only dispel one at the time, and Antimagic Field merely surpasses the effects, they're done for as soon as you are out of range. Of course, there is also a significant monetary cost involved with unlimited arcane power, but.. you know which full caster is already incredibly powerful, makes for one of the best builds around with a Genielock, and can create 200gp per spell slot of 2nd level or higher by level 10? You guessed right, a creation bard! Now the expenditure is just in downtime spent to prepare your vessel with glyphs.

Let all the nova burst and summoner and utility caster builders in the realm know: Concentration has fallen, Long Live the Genie King.

[Dalinar]

So nicely done, but do you have a source for the ruling where that you can use Glyph of Warding to have multiple concentration effects going at the same time? That seems like the biggest loophole by which a DM hostile to your plans could nerf your combo (aside from, y'know, not giving you enough downtime to actually set up a big combo by casting multiple high-level hour-long-cast-time spells over many long rests to no immediate payoff).

"If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."

I mean, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you that that's RAW, as spells do exactly what they say they do and no more--and there's nothing in the spell description saying that a concentration effect cast through Glyph of Warding is cancelled by another concentration effect cast through Glyph of Warding from the same caster. That said, it really seems to me that the whole point of having a concentration mechanic is to keep the most powerful spell effects in the game from stacking, so I'd like to be *really* sure, y'know?

[Renduaz]

So nicely done, but do you have a source for the ruling where that you can use Glyph of Warding to have multiple concentration effects going at the same time? That seems like the biggest loophole by which a DM hostile to your plans could nerf your combo (aside from, y'know, not giving you enough downtime to actually set up a big combo by casting multiple high-level hour-long-cast-time spells over many long rests to no immediate payoff).

"If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."

I mean, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you that that's RAW, as spells do exactly what they say they do and no more--and there's nothing in the spell description saying that a concentration effect cast through Glyph of Warding is cancelled by another concentration effect cast through Glyph of Warding from the same caster. That said, it really seems to me that the whole point of having a concentration mechanic is to keep the most powerful spell effects in the game from stacking, so I'd like to be *really* sure, y'know?

Thank you very much, but no worries, I definitely have the sources. Wouldn't have even thought about it without them!

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/16/hunters-mark-or-hex-with-glyph-of-warding/

But the problem might be centered around the 'Inscribe a spell that harms other creatures' sentence now that I think about it, but is it just flavour or RAW, since there's no mechanical definition for 'harming'. Hmm. Technically, any concentration spell which either directly radiates harmful effects from you or spawns magical effects designed to do so is a spell which harms other creatures, and Spell Glyph's wording itself is open-ended, so it should be reasonable enough.

It does rule out purely defensive buffs and heals sadly, But hey, offense is the best defense if you can deal a trillion damage and status effects.

[Rihno]

Absolutely PHENOMENAL finding. I totally missed that. This is a real game changer. I think it's time to make 1 Warlock/19 Creation Bard guy who has his "ban-kai" ready inside his bottle. And gold won't be an issue, though you still have to buy powder somewhere.

Though Wizard would also work with artistan tools proficiency using Fabricate spell and using gold coins to produce gold amulets, rings, jewelery etc. and selling them for more gold than it was used becaue of artistic values (items always cost more than materials and since it's gold... ).

So 1 Genie/19 Wizard with Fabricate to farm gold can also spam Glyphs inside Bottle. I would probably go with Blade Singer here as before we get Tenser Transformation only Blade Singer gets extra attacks. Stacking Haste, Shadow Blade, Blurr, Mirror Image, Dragon Breath would be really nice for big battles.

Awesome concept. I think It will be my next build.

You sir get 10/10 for this one :)

[Renduaz]

Absolutely PHENOMENAL finding. I totally missed that. This is a real game changer. I think it's time to make 1 Warlock/19 Creation Bard guy who has his "ban-kai" ready inside his bottle. And gold won't be an issue, though you still have to buy powder somewhere.

Though Wizard would also work with artistan tools proficiency using Fabricate spell and using gold coins to produce gold amulets, rings, jewelery etc. and selling them for more gold than it was used becaue of artistic values (items always cost more than materials and since it's gold... ).

So 1 Genie/19 Wizard with Fabricate to farm gold can also spam Glyphs inside Bottle. I would probably go with Blade Singer here as before we get Tenser Transformation only Blade Singer gets extra attacks. Stacking Haste, Shadow Blade, Blurr, Mirror Image, Dragon Breath would be really nice for big battles.

Awesome concept. I think It will be my next build.

You sir get 10/10 for this one :)

I'm glad you approve so greatly! I'm pretty excited myself about the mental image of a a caster hopping inside the vessel, all the enemies wondering what's going on, then next turn he manifests like one of the Greater Gods themselves with so many arcane halos he looks like fireworks display and conjured weapons and creatures swirling the scene before everything around is utterly transformed and all enemies atomized by the combined force of countless concentration spells.

And as an update, I was apprehensive about the 'harms other creatures' sentence though I suspected it to be fluff because virtually the entire internet ignores it, and that suspicion I now discovered was confirmed by Crawford (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/13/can-you-cast-spells-like-fly-or-haste-as-part-of-a-spell-glyph-for-a-glyph-of-warding-spell/). You can make spell glyphs out of any spells whatsoever.

Mystra, right behind you.

[Thunderous Mojo]

For the sake of Discussion, I present an alternative view:

Jeremy Crawford:
"If two people are on different planes of existence, they are infinitely far away from each other. For example, if I'm on the Material Plane and you're on the Ethereal Plane, we're not within 30 feet of each other."

The DMG pg 48:
BORDER ETHEREAL
From the Border Ethereal, a traveler can see into whatever plane it overlaps,
(Snip)
Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapped plane, and vice versa. A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane, and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal.

The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings. This makes the Ethereal Plane ideal for reconnaissance, spying on opponents, and moving around without being detected. The Ethereal Plane also disobeys the laws of gravity; a creature there can move up and down as easily as walking.

The text from the DMG implies something very different than what Jeremy Crawford's Tweet stated. The Border Ethereal overlaps the plane it borders, and one can see 30' or more into the non ethereal plane, from the Border Ethereal.

The DMG does not state the two planes are an infinite distance apart.

Even while inside a Bottled Respite vessel, the Warlock is still able to hear as if they were on the original plane. This would lead me to conclude that the Extra dimensional space of the Genie Warlock's vessel, overlaps the plane of origination.

Could a DM then rule that motion is happening inside the Genie Vessel...of course.
Even under the assumptions of the original post a DM could still find a creative way to say "No".

If the interior of the Genie vessel is entirely divorced from the exterior of the bottle, the Extra Dimensional space might still have rotation, and thus foil a Glyph of Warding spell.

[Renduaz]

For the sake of Discussion, I present an alternative view:

Jeremy Crawford:
"If two people are on different planes of existence, they are infinitely far away from each other. For example, if I'm on the Material Plane and you're on the Ethereal Plane, we're not within 30 feet of each other."

The DMG pg 48:
BORDER ETHEREAL
From the Border Ethereal, a traveler can see into whatever plane it overlaps,
(Snip)
Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapped plane, and vice versa. A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane, and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal.

The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings. This makes the Ethereal Plane ideal for reconnaissance, spying on opponents, and moving around without being detected. The Ethereal Plane also disobeys the laws of gravity; a creature there can move up and down as easily as walking.

The text from the DMG implies something very different than what Jeremy Crawford's Tweet stated. The Border Ethereal overlaps the plane it borders, and one can see 30' or more into the non ethereal plane, from the Border Ethereal.
The DMG does not state the two planes are an infinite distance apart.

Even while inside a Bottled Respite vessel, the Warlock is still able to hear as if they were on the original plane. This would lead me to conclude that the Extra dimensional space of the Genie Warlock's vessel, overlaps the plane of origination.

Could a DM then rule that motion is happening inside the Genie Vessel...of course.
Even under the assumptions of the original post a DM could still find a creative way to say "No".

If the interior of the Genie vessel is entirely divorced from the exterior of the bottle, the Extra Dimensional space might still have rotation, and thus foil a Glyph of Warding spell.

While D&D Cosmology in particular has more semamtic and conceptual oddities than the DMG in general does, as far as I'm aware the Border Ethereal is explicitly distinguished from the Deep Ethereal, and the reason the separation even needs to be made is due to the Ethereal Plane's unique role in lore as adjacent and connected to the Material. It certainly is unique, because it is the only plane we know of where creatures like Ghosts might blend inbetween and wander in and out of, specific spells used to pierce it, and so forth.

However, that hot mess doesn't neccessarily pertain to the Genie Vessel since it isn't explicitly divided into a similar dichotomy, and more importantly, while we may entertain thoughts on whether it might be the case or what structure it does follow in relation to the Prime, the Sage Advice Compendium, which addresses the topic of extradimensional spaces exclusively, dissuades us of the notion by establishing firm RAW on that category - They are outside other planes.

The hearing could just as well be a trans-planar magical effect. Many such exist - A Sending spell enables telepathic communication between planes, and a Succubus can hear and talk to creatures on different planes. While as you say, this may form a theoretical implication, an intuition as warned in the OP, the Compendium's specification that it is fully outside of the Prime, and Crawford's elaboration seal the deal on the RAW regardless of personal theory. Lastly, pay heed to the wording of You can hear as if you were in the vessel's space, which is a wording that is invoked when we are not, in reality, in the Vessel's space. Just like Invoke Duplicity. And we're not in its actual space because the writers know we are on another plane.

The same is true for the rotation - It can't be rotated from inside the prime, because it is outside the Prime. The Plane exists outside the Prime ( Probably connected somewhere to the Astral Sea like its brother spells and abilities ), it is not contained by the exterior within it. I'm not sure what you mean by rotation divorced from the exterior - that it rotates by itself like a planet/Crystal Sphere does? But that doesn't foil the spell on planets, and also seems pretty unlikely given the fluff ( An interior appointed with low cushions and tables ). Do they just get tossed about or their occupants sliding toward the walls for no reason? Seems dubious.

[LumenPlacidum]

Even under the assumptions of the original post a DM could still find a creative way to say "No".

If you're worried that your DM is going to look for a creative way to say "No" then it probably isn't a good idea to run an idea like this with that table. After all, they could just take the non-creative way of saying "No."

[Silpharon]

I talk about this quite a bit in my Armorer build thread (with Genie 1) here from December:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623920-The-Emissary-of-Keranos-Build-(Armorer-Multiclass-Advice-Welcome)&p=24859149#post24859149

Plenty of potential for concentration buffs. Here's a fun trick: have each buff trigger off a short one syllable sound that can be chained together. For instance - saying "hacengriv" could trigger "hac" (Haste) + "en" (Enlarge) + "griv" (Greater invisibility). Saying the word requires no action. Bonus action out and go to town!

I'm also considering using extended spell metamagic with a Portable Hole to pre-buff similarly before a fight starts. Not as flashy, but you can use it multiple times per day.

[ATHATH]

But the problem might be centered around the 'Inscribe a spell that harms other creatures' sentence now that I think about it
"When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that affects other creatures (the effect need not be harmful),"

[Renduaz]

I talk about this quite a bit in my Armorer build thread (with Genie 1) here from December:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623920-The-Emissary-of-Keranos-Build-(Armorer-Multiclass-Advice-Welcome)&p=24859149#post24859149

Plenty of potential for concentration buffs. Here's a fun trick: have each buff trigger off a short one syllable sound that can be chained together. For instance - saying "hacengriv" could trigger "hac" (Haste) + "en" (Enlarge) + "griv" (Greater invisibility). Saying the word requires no action. Bonus action out and go to town!

I'm also considering using extended spell metamagic with a Portable Hole to pre-buff similarly before a fight starts. Not as flashy, but you can use it multiple times per day.

Oh wow, I had no idea. Turns out someone did think of it before! I mostly arrived at it because plenty of my last builds featured Genielock dips so I have tremendous respect for them, and for my next build I wanted to see if I could go a different direction and make a Barbarian, particularly Zealot Barbarian with 6 levels of Spellcaster and some spell that abuses Rage Beyond Death. So I'm opening the spell list and filtering out concentration spells because of Rage, and I see Glyph of Warding as a 3rd level spell.

Then I go 'oh ****, this will let me exploit concentration spells too because it removes the concentration status, but I can't move it' and then I remember Genie's Vessel and it all clicks together. I think its important to stress how you can also use concentration spells while Raging or Wildshaping or otherwise prevented from concentrating.

And the trick is pretty good.

[Renduaz]

"When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that affects other creatures (the effect need not be harmful),"


https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Glyph%20of%20Warding#content

"When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures, either upon a surface (such as a table or a section of floor or wall) or within an object that can be closed (such as a book, a scroll, or a Treasure chest) to conceal the glyph"

Which source are you quoting from?

[WaroftheCrans]

For the sake of Discussion, I present an alternative view:
(Snip)
The DMG does not state the two planes are an infinite distance apart.

Agreed. JC is not the most coherent or in touch with the rules and I think it's important to remember that what he says, and to a lesser extent the sage advice compendium, are not Raw, and may at times not even be RAI. They are useful resources but not words to live by. If he were right about this you wouldn't be able to use magic missile on someone on the ethereal, as they'd be infinitely far away, as opposed to less than 120 feet.


Even while inside a Bottled Respite vessel, the Warlock is still able to hear as if they were on the original plane. This would lead me to conclude that the Extra dimensional space of the Genie Warlock's vessel, overlaps the plane of origination.

There is nothing that implies that the genies vessel is on the ethereal, that it's plane functions similar to the ethereal or that the rules it follows are remotely the same. Quite plane-ly it does not, as it doesn't have any of the other features of an overlapping plane, such as sight, objects bleeding over or the same sense of scale. Keep in mind that the border ethereal overlaps with many planes. On the other hand, the genies bottle just allows you to hear stuff from where the bottle is. Perhaps it's just a permanent sensor. That seems a far more reasonable explanation than the genies bottle overlapping with many other planes.


Could a DM then rule that motion is happening inside the Genie Vessel...of course.
Even under the assumptions of the original post a DM could still find a creative way to say "No".
a DM can rule whatever they please, without it being supported by the raw. But it's the rules that we have to use, not a hypothetical DM.


If the interior of the Genie vessel is entirely divorced from the exterior of the bottle, the Extra Dimensional space might still have rotation, and thus foil a Glyph of Warding spell.

Ok, that's just unreasonable. I'm not sure what it would be rotating around since it's just one room or why it would be rotating, but that's not what the spell is referring to by movement. If it were, the only place you could ever cast it is on a demiplane, as most planets, even in DnD, orbit abound something or rotate a little.
Edit: ninja'd.
Not really but I started this and left it boot two hours ago. I just want to reiterate that the Sage advice compendium is not quite RAW. At the very least, it's not universally considered such, and while I think that referring to its guidance is good, I appreciate making the distinction. Just like I feel the distinction needs to be made between the genies bottle and the border ethereal. There are differences, some more pronounced that others.

[Dalinar]

OK, I'm sold that the basic idea works at least. Let's see how it plays out.

The combo is pretty good at 6, although you only know 8 spells from Bard 1-3 and two Genielock 1 spells. It becomes way better at 11 (you now have your pick of the litter of buffs constrained only by your limit of two Magical Secrets and your maximum spell slot level of 5). But let's go even further beyond!

Our limits at this point are time (you have to squeeze in an hour of the day per glyph), material components to some extent (1 performance of creation per long rest, limited by 20*bard level gp and size restraints), and spell slots/spells known (which is gradually alleviated as you gain more levels).

And then we hit Creation 14 and it all goes away.

So Bards can learn Simulacrum via Magical Secret at 14. This is also the level at which you are no longer constrained by the gp value of your Performance of Creation. You conjure some ice and powdered ruby, and you spend your twelve hours creating a Simulacrum of yourself, given a day in which you have nothing better to do. Your Simulacrum lives inside your Genie Vessel (and I hope that none of your enemies have caught on how important that object is by now), and it spends all its spell slots making Spell Glyphs triggered when you speak a passphrase that only you know inside the vessel. Simulacra can't regain spell slots, so you'll need to go in there yourself and recast it once every so often. How often? Let's assume the thing can cast 16 hours a day and spend the rest sleeping. Its first- and second-level slots are useless, but it'll still have 10 spell slots of 3rd level or higher beyond that, so that's pretty much your limit there. I'm assuming that the Simulacrum can't itself cast Simulacrum, since it would require a 7th-level slot to do so and you've only got one of those, which you spent making the thing so it probably doesn't have that.

Okay, maybe at 14 that isn't as efficient as just doing it yourself. But still, being able to cast Simulacrum for no gold cost is really, really good.

At Bard 15, though, we get an 8th-level slot, meaning your Simulacrum can make another Simulacrum with it. It needs to be touching you for the entire twelve-hour duration of the spell (if it casted Simulacrum on itself, the new Simulacrum would have no spell slots), so if you can, like, carry it around piggyback while it's casting the spell for four hours (and have it do the rest while you sleep for eight) then at the completion of the spell you would have a new Simulacrum with new spell slots that could continue spell-storing for you. Try not to do any important social interactions during this time, as I'm sure being publicly seen carrying your identical twin around while he casts some obviously powerful magic would raise quite a few questions.

At Bard 16, our cousin that went straight Wizard got Wish. Oh dear. At Bard 17, we get a ninth-level spell, but Wish isn't on our spell list, so we don't get it until our final Magical Secrets at 18.

Sure, our theoretical combat prowess is off the charts, perhaps literally, but the Wizard got the spell. For these two levels, we are no longer the most powerful creature on the face of the planet, as our Wizard rival can now Wish to instantly cast Simulacrum on you among all the other shenanigans possible with Wish (Simulacrum), once per day, and now has access to all the tricks you do provided you exist (which I guess the point was more to compare what had happened if you went straight for Wish instead of delaying it two levels, but this is funnier).

And then you hit Bard 18 and can do the same thing right back. You now Wish for a Simulacrum of yourself once per day, have it go in and cast all your buff-glyphs for you, and we are finally time-efficient with our tactic. At 19, counting our Warlock level. I guess we're gonna go solo the Tarrasque now or something? I dunno.

---

So in the process of writing this out, I was pretty excited at first, but I don't know how actually practical it is considering the time constraints, social interaction finessing you'll have to do, and stuff like that. In other words, I feel like we are engaging in purely theoretical optimization with this build, kinda like how theoretical Batman with infinite prep time can do anything, but actual Batman takes a lot of L's along the way. If that was your goal, that's all well and good, I suppose. Theoretical optimization can be fun! But I don't see selling something as "literally the most broken thing in 5e" as a good idea if it's not something that would work out well at an actual table. Maybe if you start at 20?

We are sacrificing potentially an awful lot of spells known that might be useful in other situations, we spend a good chunk of our day inside the bottle, which BTW is limited on time to twice-your-proficiency-bonus hours so there's another time limit, and we're also limited by our once-per-long-rest Performance of Creation for the free material components (although I guess that's not that bad, all things considered--we aren't using those second-level slots anyway, so we can expend them on more performances). And heaven forbid someone catches wise and smashes your bottle!

What can we do to make this more practical?

[Renduaz]

Agreed. JC is not the most coherent or in touch with the rules and I think it's important to remember that what he says, and to a lesser extent the sage advice compendium, are not Raw, and may at times not even be RAI. They are useful resources but not words to live by. If he were right about this you wouldn't be able to use magic missile on someone on the ethereal, as they'd be infinitely far away, as opposed to less than 120 feet.

There is nothing that implies that the genies vessel is on the ethereal, that it's plane functions similar to the ethereal or that the rules it follows are remotely the same. Quite plane-ly it does not, as it doesn't have any of the other features of an overlapping plane, such as sight, objects bleeding over or the same sense of scale. Keep in mind that the border ethereal overlaps with many planes. On the other hand, the genies bottle just allows you to hear stuff from where the bottle is. Perhaps it's just a permanent sensor. That seems a far more reasonable explanation than the genies bottle overlapping with many other planes.
a DM can rule whatever they please, without it being supported by the raw. But it's the rules that we have to use, not a hypothetical DM.


Ok, that's just unreasonable. I'm not sure what it would be rotating around since it's just one room or why it would be rotating, but that's not what the spell is referring to by movement. If it were, the only place you could ever cast it is on a demiplane, as most planets, even in DnD, orbit abound something or rotate a little.

That's true about JC, it can't overrule RAW either. However, when it comes to convoluted terminology, like what is denoted by an 'extradimensional space' in RAW, we can get backup that an interpretation isn't wrong by RAW ( If someone were to argue for it ), at least for as long as no clear definitions exist, and furthermore it informs us which interpretation is the RAI, since Crawford maintains that X is what he meant when he wrote something.

Now, unless contradicted by other explicit RAW, a RAI interpretation of RAW is essentially the proper RAW. While some contradictions exist in sections about the Ethereal as pointed out, they relate only to the Border Ethereal at that and to that plane's fluid characteristics anyway, so they're not quite relevant to an extradimensional space.

Interestingly enough, when my attention was called to it I suddenly understood that it is actually the Vessel's hearing clause which gives us arguably the clearest RAW so far about how to treat the interior's position relative to the vessel: "While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space."

As if? What does it mean, as if? Aren't we in the Vessel's space? That only comes up for spaces that you aren't truly positioned at but can still magically sense or act from, like with Invoke Duplicity or Manifest Mind. So the ability outright asserts that we are not in the Vessel's space back on the Prime despite being 'inside' one, ergo different and fully separated plane.

[Renduaz]

OK, I'm sold that the basic idea works at least. Let's see how it plays out.

The combo is pretty good at 6, although you only know 8 spells from Bard 1-3 and two Genielock 1 spells. It becomes way better at 11 (you now have your pick of the litter of buffs constrained only by your limit of two Magical Secrets and your maximum spell slot level of 5). But let's go even further beyond!

Our limits at this point are time (you have to squeeze in an hour of the day per glyph), material components to some extent (1 performance of creation per long rest, limited by 20*bard level gp and size restraints), and spell slots/spells known (which is gradually alleviated as you gain more levels).

And then we hit Creation 14 and it all goes away.

So Bards can learn Simulacrum via Magical Secret at 14. This is also the level at which you are no longer constrained by the gp value of your Performance of Creation. You conjure some ice and powdered ruby, and you spend your twelve hours creating a Simulacrum of yourself, given a day in which you have nothing better to do. Your Simulacrum lives inside your Genie Vessel (and I hope that none of your enemies have caught on how important that object is by now), and it spends all its spell slots making Spell Glyphs triggered when you speak a passphrase that only you know inside the vessel. Simulacra can't regain spell slots, so you'll need to go in there yourself and recast it once every so often. How often? Let's assume the thing can cast 16 hours a day and spend the rest sleeping. Its first- and second-level slots are useless, but it'll still have 10 spell slots of 3rd level or higher beyond that, so that's pretty much your limit there. I'm assuming that the Simulacrum can't itself cast Simulacrum, since it would require a 7th-level slot to do so and you've only got one of those, which you spent making the thing so it probably doesn't have that.

Okay, maybe at 14 that isn't as efficient as just doing it yourself. But still, being able to cast Simulacrum for no gold cost is really, really good.

At Bard 15, though, we get an 8th-level slot, meaning your Simulacrum can make another Simulacrum with it. It needs to be touching you for the entire twelve-hour duration of the spell (if it casted Simulacrum on itself, the new Simulacrum would have no spell slots), so if you can, like, carry it around piggyback while it's casting the spell for four hours (and have it do the rest while you sleep for eight) then at the completion of the spell you would have a new Simulacrum with new spell slots that could continue spell-storing for you. Try not to do any important social interactions during this time, as I'm sure being publicly seen carrying your identical twin around while he casts some obviously powerful magic would raise quite a few questions.

At Bard 16, our cousin that went straight Wizard got Wish. Oh dear. At Bard 17, we get a ninth-level spell, but Wish isn't on our spell list, so we don't get it until our final Magical Secrets at 18.

Sure, our theoretical combat prowess is off the charts, perhaps literally, but the Wizard got the spell. For these two levels, we are no longer the most powerful creature on the face of the planet, as our Wizard rival can now Wish to instantly cast Simulacrum on you among all the other shenanigans possible with Wish (Simulacrum), once per day, and now has access to all the tricks you do provided you exist (which I guess the point was more to compare what had happened if you went straight for Wish instead of delaying it two levels, but this is funnier).

And then you hit Bard 18 and can do the same thing right back. You now Wish for a Simulacrum of yourself once per day, have it go in and cast all your buff-glyphs for you, and we are finally time-efficient with our tactic. At 19, counting our Warlock level. I guess we're gonna go solo the Tarrasque now or something? I dunno.

---

So in the process of writing this out, I was pretty excited at first, but I don't know how actually practical it is considering the time constraints, social interaction finessing you'll have to do, and stuff like that. In other words, I feel like we are engaging in purely theoretical optimization with this build, kinda like how theoretical Batman with infinite prep time can do anything, but actual Batman takes a lot of L's along the way. If that was your goal, that's all well and good, I suppose. Theoretical optimization can be fun! But I don't see selling something as "literally the most broken thing in 5e" as a good idea if it's not something that would work out well at an actual table. Maybe if you start at 20?

We are sacrificing potentially an awful lot of spells known that might be useful in other situations, we spend a good chunk of our day inside the bottle, which BTW is limited on time to twice-your-proficiency-bonus hours so there's another time limit, and we're also limited by our once-per-long-rest Performance of Creation for the free material components (although I guess that's not that bad, all things considered--we aren't using those second-level slots anyway, so we can expend them on more performances). And heaven forbid someone catches wise and smashes your bottle!

What can we do to make this more practical?

Well, it should be underlined that while you can pursue the goal of stacking every spell in your list for a nova, its actually far above and beyond what is strictly necessary to derive immense amounts of power. Even two or three choice concentration spells active without their concentration, leaving room for an actual concentration spell with no glyph is still a massive abuse of the magic system and can have devastating results.

I envision the more outrageous Apotheosis combos as something a player would prepare in advance with some downtime, and even time gladly afforded by the party for a big dungeon crawl and boss fight. Considering even the smallest of those stacks can make for an an insta-kill or invincibility or god power enhancement lasting anywhere from minutes to hours, its probably only neccessary for special occassions. I mean some nova builds are burned out in a single round, we probably have a fair bunch of glyphs with each lasting a decent amount of time, and we decide how much power to draw based on the situation at hand.

There are many steps we can take to shield the bottle. I mean we're a Creation Bard, just sheathing it in Adamantine could be enough, but I'll probably expand on that more when I get back from some business.

[Thunderous Mojo]

furthermore it informs us which interpretation is the RAI, since Crawford maintains that X is what he meant when he wrote something.

I would leave Crawford, and any designer, out of your argument.
Internet scuttlebutt has indicated that James Wyatt wrote the majority of the 5e DMG. Wether that is true or not, the book is attributed to many authors...so it contains multitudes of opinions. 😀

The venerable TV show "I Dream of Jeannie" had the same gambit as the vessel in TCoE. The inside of Jeannie's Lamp was a tall cylinder, filled with cushions and low tables on the floor, and occupants could hear sounds from the exterior. Is Tasha's trying to reveal multiversal Planar Mechanical 'truths' or is the ability merely referencing a Television cultural touchstone?

Warlock's, as we all know, do not have Glyph of Warding on the base spell list. Any Warlock PC that wants to use Bottled Respite, the way Clark Kent uses a phone booth to turn into Superman, is going to be a multi-classed character, designed to use their combined class features for singular glory.

I don't think it is much of a stretch to postulate, many DMs will just reject this. Many players, might object to it as well.

Now a Genie Pact Warlock that advances sufficiently to reach 10th level and can bring 5 other PCs into their vessels, can have their fellow players set the Glyphs. Thereby making this a shared group activity. I don't think it is a stretch to posit that a communal plan might be more likely to get the DM nod of approval.

Lastly, using Glyph of Warding to have Concentration-free spells might be a step towards Mutually Assured Destruction. Kingdoms, Archdevils, Demon Princes, and Ancient Liche's might have numerous servants that can 'super buff' something in a similar manner.

Mephistopheles can have a Simulacrum and a multitude of Concentration-free buffs from the thousands of Magic Using Souls they have acquired over the years.

This is an aside but has anyone had a Genie Pact Warlock escape a TPK by using Bottled Respite? If so, did dissension in the group develop due to the escape?

[HPisBS]

Oh wow, I had no idea. Turns out someone did think of it before! I mostly arrived at it because plenty of my last builds featured Genielock dips so I have tremendous respect for them... and I see Glyph of Warding as a 3rd level spell.

Then I go 'oh ****, this will let me exploit concentration spells too because it removes the concentration status, but I can't move it' and then I remember Genie's Vessel and it all clicks together. I think its important to stress how you can also use concentration spells while Raging or Wildshaping or otherwise prevented from concentrating.

And the trick is pretty good.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but this basic concept is about as old as 5e itself lol. The only difference is that it used to require using Demiplane – or at a bare minimum, a Bag of Holding – to pull off. (Such items have permanent openings that could be said to "connect" their extradimensional space to the space the item occupies in the outside plane, so DMs who want to say "no" to such an exploit have an excuse – flimsy though it may be.)



and for my next build I wanted to see if I could go a different direction and make a Barbarian, particularly Zealot Barbarian with 6 levels of Spellcaster and some spell that abuses Rage Beyond Death. So I'm opening the spell list and filtering out concentration spells because of Rage,

The Relentless build in my signature is all about a 14th lvl Zealot that uses Artillerist 6 to make it extra tanky. (And stays alive and up even after reaching 0 hp.)

[kazaryu]

Even if someone tries to dispel it, they can only dispel one at the time, and Antimagic Field merely surpasses the effects, they're done for as soon as you are out of range. Of course, there is also a significant monetary cost involved with unlimited arcane power, but.. you know which full caster is already incredibly powerful, makes for one of the best builds around with a Genielock, and can create 200gp per spell slot of 2nd level or higher by level 10? You guessed right, a creation bard! Now the expenditure is just in downtime spent to prepare your vessel with glyphs.



bolding mine, and is the only place i'd draw a correction.

first: dispel magic would end all spells affecting you, if they cast it after you proc the glyphs (assuming they roll high enough). as per the spell description:

Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.

so they make a roll for each spells that exceed the spell level they cast dispel at, and all spells that are equal to or less than the dispel magic spell level+any spells they pass the check for, end.

and because they can target an object, it likely comes down to DM fiat whether targeting your lamp would end glyphs attached to it. glyph of warding is a spell, so it comes down to whether the DM considers glyph of warding to be a 'spell on the target'. for example: if they'd allow you to dispel multiple glyphs on a wall by targetting the wall then tehy can dispel all the glyphs in your lamp by targetting the lamp.

i suppose that they may also rule that glyphs inside the lamp are safe since they're in an extradimensional space...but since its all part of the lamp regardless, i don't think that makes much sense. but yeh...

[spoiler=TLDR]TLDR: they can, in fact, dispel all of them at once after you trigger them. [/spolier]

second, antimagic field: i mean...yes the spells would come back once you were out of the AMF, but i wouldn't say 'they're screwed' as a result. they're still in an AMF, so unless you're using a ranged weapon, there isn't much you can do to them. and you do lose those spells again if they close range next turn. meaning that AMF could render any defensive spells (except blink) near worthless.

[ATHATH]

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Glyph%20of%20Warding#content

"When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures, either upon a surface (such as a table or a section of floor or wall) or within an object that can be closed (such as a book, a scroll, or a Treasure chest) to conceal the glyph"

Which source are you quoting from?
I quoted from The Grimoire.

Upon doing some further digging, it looks like Glyph of Warding was mentioned in the errata document of the Player's Handbook (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata.pdf):

Glyph of Warding (p. 245). The first
sentence clarifies that the magical effect needn’t be harmful. The final two
sentences of the first paragraph now
read as follows: “The glyph can cover
an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved
more than 10 feet from where you cast
this spell, the glyph is broken, and the
spell ends without being triggered.”

[sayaijin]

Well, it should be underlined that while you can pursue the goal of stacking every spell in your list for a nova, its actually far above and beyond what is strictly necessary to derive immense amounts of power. Even two or three choice concentration spells active without their concentration, leaving room for an actual concentration spell with no glyph is still a massive abuse of the magic system and can have devastating results.


Just for kicks, which two or three concentration spells are you thinking are best to stack?

This build comes online at level 6 (1 genielock, 5 creation bard). At that level which spells do you stack? Then later when this build really kicks into high gear at level 11 (1 GL, 10 CB), which spells are you stacking then?

[DarknessEternal]

How are you interpreting "incense and powdered diamond" as "one item"?

[fbelanger]

A broken combo is broken no matter the number of arguments and justification you find out in rules or sage advice.

So the DM has just to decide to allow or not a broken combo.

[Renduaz]

I would leave Crawford, and any designer, out of your argument.
Internet scuttlebutt has indicated that James Wyatt wrote the majority of the 5e DMG. Wether that is true or not, the book is attributed to many authors...so it contains multitudes of opinions. 😀

The venerable TV show "I Dream of Jeannie" had the same gambit as the vessel in TCoE. The inside of Jeannie's Lamp was a tall cylinder, filled with cushions and low tables on the floor, and occupants could hear sounds from the exterior. Is Tasha's trying to reveal multiversal Planar Mechanical 'truths' or is the ability merely referencing a Television cultural touchstone?

Warlock's, as we all know, do not have Glyph of Warding on the base spell list. Any Warlock PC that wants to use Bottled Respite, the way Clark Kent uses a phone booth to turn into Superman, is going to be a multi-classed character, designed to use their combined class features for singular glory.

I don't think it is much of a stretch to postulate, many DMs will just reject this. Many players, might object to it as well.

Now a Genie Pact Warlock that advances sufficiently to reach 10th level and can bring 5 other PCs into their vessels, can have their fellow players set the Glyphs. Thereby making this a shared group activity. I don't think it is a stretch to posit that a communal plan might be more likely to get the DM nod of approval.

Lastly, using Glyph of Warding to have Concentration-free spells might be a step towards Mutually Assured Destruction. Kingdoms, Archdevils, Demon Princes, and Ancient Liche's might have numerous servants that can 'super buff' something in a similar manner.

Mephistopheles can have a Simulacrum and a multitude of Concentration-free buffs from the thousands of Magic Using Souls they have acquired over the years.

This is an aside but has anyone had a Genie Pact Warlock escape a TPK by using Bottled Respite? If so, did dissension in the group develop due to the escape?

Interesting, didn't know that about Crawford, But I suppose we're left with little choice when it comes to obtaining WoTC's own interpretation of muddy or contested wording in the books that they are too lazy to clarify in the errata or u til they decide to update them, and Crawford has been billed as the guy officially charged with dishing out explanations for those questions.

Yes, it certainly does require multiclassing, but I personally have no interest in diving too much into cultural inspirations or DM rulings and house rules, because I'm already of the understanding that every DM and tables can conduct their allowances as they please, and the DMG in 5E begins with the statement that all rules are optional guidelines for a DM's convenience.

My job when making a build or combo is to make sure that it is in line with RAW and basic logic/physics, and can't be dismissed by it - that there is nothing directly preventing it. And from the ability's RAW on how to treat the vessel's space and what the process entails, I don't see a problem. When it comes to extradimensional spaces, which it is by RAW, yet we have no idea exactly what it means or how physics apply to it ( Other than some passages in the DMG about them which support Sage Advice, by the way ), we get an official response on what they're supposed to be.

A DM can decide that in their game, it means something other than what WOTC intended, sure. A DM can decide that Glyphs don't work on the Prime because the planet is moving or pulled by the sun. A DM is free to decide a lot of things, and I agree it won't make it to a table where it isn't welcome.



I'm sorry to break it to you, but this basic concept is about as old as 5e itself lol. The only difference is that it used to require using Demiplane – or at a bare minimum, a Bag of Holding – to pull off. (Such items have permanent openings that could be said to "connect" their extradimensional space to the space the item occupies in the outside plane, so DMs who want to say "no" to such an exploit have an excuse – flimsy though it may be.)

The Relentless build in my signature is all about a 14th lvl Zealot that uses Artillerist 6 to make it extra tanky. (And stays alive and up even after reaching 0 hp.)


Oh yeah, I know the Glyph of Warding discussion has been ongoing for years, I've just never seen it done at a much lower level, and it couldn't have without magic items. I don't know if the rationale for Bag of Holding is flimsy though, since the glyphs are being moved from one plane to another. And if, as Crawford says, planes are infinitely far away in most cases, they could be said to have moved much more than 10 feey from their original point of casting.

I'll definitely be checking out the build too.




bolding mine, and is the only place i'd draw a correction.

first: dispel magic would end all spells affecting you, if they cast it after you proc the glyphs (assuming they roll high enough). as per the spell description:


so they make a roll for each spells that exceed the spell level they cast dispel at, and all spells that are equal to or less than the dispel magic spell level+any spells they pass the check for, end.

and because they can target an object, it likely comes down to DM fiat whether targeting your lamp would end glyphs attached to it. glyph of warding is a spell, so it comes down to whether the DM considers glyph of warding to be a 'spell on the target'. for example: if they'd allow you to dispel multiple glyphs on a wall by targetting the wall then tehy can dispel all the glyphs in your lamp by targetting the lamp.

i suppose that they may also rule that glyphs inside the lamp are safe since they're in an extradimensional space...but since its all part of the lamp regardless, i don't think that makes much sense. but yeh...

[spoiler=TLDR]TLDR: they can, in fact, dispel all of them at once after you trigger them. [/spolier]

second, antimagic field: i mean...yes the spells would come back once you were out of the AMF, but i wouldn't say 'they're screwed' as a result. they're still in an AMF, so unless you're using a ranged weapon, there isn't much you can do to them. and you do lose those spells again if they close range next turn. meaning that AMF could render any defensive spells (except blink) near worthless.

As for Dispel Magic, you're right, any spell of 3rd level or lower would end and they would need to make checks for each higher level spell. Luckily we could put up Globe of Invulnerability on ourselves though! However, you're wrong about the RAW nuance of casting Dispel Magic at higher levels.

The description says that when you cast it with a higher spell slot, you can end the effects of a spell with equal or lesser level, as opposed to the word any spell of 3rd level or lower.

Dispelling the Vessel itself is ridiculous for a million reasons. First they'll need to know exactly hoe the trick works to begin with and be able to clearly target the vessel which can be corcumvented just by covering it with something ot in someone's underclothes or bags or whatever. Then if they succeeded doing all of that, it absolutely won't work because a planar space outside the Prime and the physical matter of the bottle or lamp are absolutely not a singular object as conformed by the ability's wording regarding extradimensional and hearing 'as of' in its space, nor are entore rooms or homes ttpocallt considered a songle object. I can't dispel every single magical trap in a bunker laor by casting Dispel Magic on the walls.

And of all of that wasn't enough, you don't have a reason to inscribe the glyphs on the floor or walls. Just inscribe them on the cushions or a bunch of ball bearings you brought with you or anything else.

There's definitely a lot you can do to someone in an AMF. Because there are spells ehoch utiloze the environment to damage or imprison, though I was more thinking about monsters like Beholders rather than the full radius AMF. Spellcasters usong the full radius AMF are also powerless against me, because I'm flying/burrowing and safe from ranged attacks ( Wind Wall/ etc ) and so forth while they can just walk around.


I quoted from The Grimoire.

Upon doing some further digging, it looks like Glyph of Warding was mentioned in the errata document of the Player's Handbook (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata.pdf):

Oh, I see now, I looked it up on DND Beyond and the description is the same as the errata. Guess some online websites just were'nt updated.

[Renduaz]

Just for kicks, which two or three concentration spells are you thinking are best to stack?

This build comes online at level 6 (1 genielock, 5 creation bard). At that level which spells do you stack? Then later when this build really kicks into high gear at level 11 (1 GL, 10 CB), which spells are you stacking then?

Creation Bard if we can't handle the costs by other means or want to regularly access big novas, indeed. For the creation bard, at level 6, I'll actually limit myself to 2nd and 1st level spells, and cantrips so it can be prepared in the span of a single adventuring foray even though you can get 3rd level combos by preparing over 2 LR's. So:

1 Glyph cast + 1 2nd/1st level spell inscribed
2nd Glyph Cast + 2nd/1st level spell inscribed
Total of 2 3rd level slots used and 2 2nd/1st level slots used

Heroism + Blade Ward
Blade Ward + Cloud of Daggers
Shadow Blade + Hex
Invisibility + Silent Image for OOC.

As you keep getting higher slots, more GP with Performance, mkre Glyph slots and Vessel time, it only gets better, and there are tons of powerful combos. Pretty much any damage spell stack becomes a crazy output machine, but I'll see if I can mark out soke really choice ones.

Greater Invisibility + Anything
Polymorph + Expeditious Retreat
Telekinesis + Animate Objects + Bigby's Hand
Summon + Summon
Holy Weapon + Shadow Blade

Honestly too many to go through with magical secrets. All the damage tools, summon spells, auras.



How are you interpreting "incense and powdered diamond" as "one item"?

I don't, though some DM's abstract the components to their cost. However, assuming most of that value is from the diamondrrather than buying a mountain of incense for Glyphs, we could create the diamond and grind it.


A broken combo is broken no matter the number of arguments and justification you find out in rules or sage advice.

So the DM has just to decide to allow or not a broken combo.

Agreed, every DM is free to run their game as they see fit and their players free to choose their groups.

[HPisBS]

...
Oh yeah, I know the Glyph of Warding discussion has been ongoing for years, I've just never seen it done at a much lower level, and it couldn't have without magic items.

Artificer 2 could infuse their own Bag of Holding.


I don't know if the rationale for Bag of Holding is flimsy though, since the glyphs are being moved from one plane to another. And if, as Crawford says, planes are infinitely far away in most cases, they could be said to have moved much more than 10 feey from their original point of casting.

Who says they have to be moved? Just cast the spell on the item while it's already in the Bag.


I'll definitely be checking out the build too.


The thread I put "The Relentless" in was all about building the hardest-to-kill character possible, so it has a bunch of defensive feats instead of pushing stats above 16.

Edit:

...
Heroism + Blade Ward
Blade Ward + Cloud of Daggers
...
Telekinesis + Animate Objects + Bigby's Hand
Summon + Summon
...


Blade Ward only lasts for 1 round. You wouldn't even have time to get back out of the vessel and into the action before it'd expire lol. Meanwhile, you wouldn't want to put summon glyphs in your vessel because the summons would immediately attack whatever's closest to them. Same with Animate Objects. Really, all external spell effects are dubious at best. Even something like Telekinesis is probably useless with this; since the Glyph is what's "casting" / concentrating on the spell, you wouldn't get to control its effects.

[Renduaz]

Artificer 2 could infuse their own Bag of Holding.



Who says they have to be moved? Just cast the spell on the item while it's already in the Bag.



The thread I put it in was all about building the hardest-to-kill character possible, so it has a bunch of defensive feats instead of pushing stats above 16.

I was actually under the impression so far that Replicate Magic Item entailed replicating an existing magical item. Good to know! Regarding the Bag of Holding, I'm not sure if you can see into it, or cast spells into another plane without exceeding the range limit. But even if you did, pulling the item out of the bag would move it, and you absolutely need to pull it, because the trigger can't work while infinitely far away.

If you rule ( Against Sage Advice and some of the dictionary definition of extradimensional ) that its on the same dimension/plane as you for the purposes of feet measurement, which is an argument that also loses credibility by the fact that items spill out into the Astral Sea if the ba is destroyed, then the whole combo fails because thw glyph moves 10 feet on the prime whenever the bag does.

You're right about Blade Ward, wrong about summons. All the TCE summons for example won't attack you. The real issue with them is that you'd have the break the vessel completely to get them out, but its not difficult to create another one if you only stored those glyphs on it.

Also, your reading of Glyph and controlling the spell has no basis in RAW frankly. There are no caveats for "the spell lasts to its duration" - that means everything inside the spell description, including using actions or bonises to command or move stuff. They aren't individually tied to concentration.

[HPisBS]

Regarding the Bag of Holding, I'm not sure if you can see into it, or cast spells into another plane without exceeding the range limit. But even if you did, pulling the item out of the bag would move it, and you absolutely need to pull it, because the trigger can't work while infinitely far away.

The spell has a range of touch, so you simply cast it (them [Glyph + buff spell]) on the item while holding the item inside the bag.

And you don't need to pull an item out to activate the Glyph. Simply set it to activate when someone within range says a trigger word. How do you get within range of something that's "infinitely far away" because it's on another plane? In this case, simply put your hand inside the Bag.

Edit:

Also, your reading of Glyph and controlling the spell has no basis in RAW frankly. There are no caveats for "the spell lasts to its duration" - that means everything inside the spell description, including using actions or bonises to command or move stuff. They aren't individually tied to concentration.

Where do you get that from? The text explicitly says
"If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."

Since they attack whatever triggered the Glyph (even if that's the Glyph's caster), that must mean the caster doesn't have control over the spell's effects. And how would you control the spell, anyway? You aren't even concentrating on it.

[Unoriginal]

Genuine question: what happens if you go into your vessel in a combat situation and the enemies smash it when you're inside?

[Renduaz]

The spell has a range of touch, so you simply cast it (them [Glyph + buff spell]) on the item while holding the item inside the bag.

And you don't need to pull an item out to activate the Glyph. Simply set it to activate when someone within range says a trigger word. How do you get within range of something that's "infinitely far away" because it's on another plane? In this case, simply put your hand inside the Bag.

Edit:


Where do you get that from? The text explicitly says
"If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."

Since they attack whatever triggered the Glyph (even if that's the Glyph's caster), that must mean the caster doesn't have control over the spell's effects. And how would you control the spell, anyway? You aren't even concentrating on it.

You've got one problem - "If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place, if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken. The object does remain in place, but the mechanics of reaching hands through infinite distances aside, you are definitely occupying a space in the Prime as you cast this spell, As soon as you pack the bag and withdraw your hand, or even as soon as you cast it, it could be argued that you just violated the second, as opposed to the first, clause of the spell.

Not all summoned creatures are hostile. They only attack you IF they are hostile by default. A 'Summon Celestial' spell does not fulfill that. How would I control the spell? By the power of RAW, no need for meta explanations. A Spiritual Weapon spell tells me that the weapon lasts for the spell duration, and that I can use bonus actions to control it for that duration, not that I can only use them while concentrating.

Normally, the WHOLE spell, and its duration, ends if you stop concentrating. But because Glyph releases it to its full duration without requiring our concentration, we're good. Crawford explocitly said that you can use Hunter's Mark just fine with the glyph, and everything that entails, like moving the mark.

[Renduaz]

Genuine question: what happens if you go into your vessel in a combat situation and the enemies smash it when you're inside?

I mean, you just get shunted out into the nereast unoccupied space of the physical vessel left behind. And would probably do well to find some means of shielding or hiding it next time.

[HPisBS]

You've got one problem - "If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place, if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken. The object does remain in place, but the mechanics of reaching hands through infinite distances aside, you are definitely occupying a space in the Prime as you cast this spell, As soon as you pack the bag and withdraw your hand, or even as soon as you cast it, it could be argued that you just violated the second, as opposed to the first, clause of the spell.

It could be argued, but it would be a stretch.

As you said, "you are definitely occupying a space in the Prime as you cast this spell." But you're also definitely occupying space in that extradimensional space. More importantly, the Glyph is occupying some of that extra-dimensional space (which is what that line is really about - the Glyph's space), and doesn't move from its location within that dimension.

That just leaves the mechanics of whether the Bag's entrance (the opening) being moved around = the Bag's interior being moved around. That part is much more up in the air.



Not all summoned creatures are hostile. They only attack you IF they are hostile by default. A 'Summon Celestial' spell does not fulfill that. How would I control the spell? By the power of RAW, no need for meta explanations. A Spiritual Weapon spell tells me that the weapon lasts for the spell duration, and that I can use bonus actions to control it for that duration, not that I can only use them while concentrating.

Normally, the WHOLE spell, and its duration, ends if you stop concentrating. But because Glyph releases it to its full duration without requiring our concentration, we're good. Crawford explocitly said that you can use Hunter's Mark just fine with the glyph, and everything that entails, like moving the mark.

It sounds like you're saying Glyph-summoned creatures would only be hostile if it's something with a clause about losing control of the summon, like Conjure Elemental.

That clearly goes against the spirit of Glyph of Warding. Remember, Glyphs are primarily intended to ward against trespassers; the original caster isn't even expected to be anywhere near it when it goes off. If it worked as you say, Conjured Minor Elementals would be under the control of whoever triggered the Glyph. That seems to be the exact opposite of the spell's intent.

[Renduaz]

It could be argued, but it would be a stretch.

As you said, "you are definitely occupying a space in the Prime as you cast this spell." But you're also definitely occupying space in that extradimensional space. More importantly, the Glyph is occupying some of that extra-dimensional space (which is what that line is really about - the Glyph's space), and doesn't move from its location within that dimension.

That just leaves the mechanics of whether the Bag's entrance (the opening) being moved around = the Bag's interior being moved around. That part is much more up in the air.




It sounds like you're saying Glyph-summoned creatures would only be hostile if it's something with a clause about losing control of the summon, like Conjure Elemental.

That clearly goes against the spirit of Glyph of Warding. Remember, Glyphs are primarily intended to ward against trespassers; the original caster isn't even expected to be anywhere near it when it goes off. If it worked as you say, Conjured Minor Elementals would be under the control of whoever triggered the Glyph. That seems to be the exact opposite of the spell's intent.

I'm not sure its in fact so definitive that you are equally occupying a space by reaching a hand into it. Common sense would probably dictate that if you are standing in a 5-foot square and reaching out to another, you aren't actually occupying two squares 10 feet long. But I prefer to rely on the RAW, and after some pondering, it seems that it certainly doesn't count.

A creature's space is the space it effectively controls in combat according to the rules, which can't be the square into which only your limb extends into. This is verified explicitly by the Bugbear Race's Long-Limbed trait - its Reach is 5 feet greater than normal, yet it is still a Medium-sized creature when it comes to occupied space rather than Large. Meaning, the fact that it can reach all those squares does not change the space it occupies as an effective fighter, which is a single square, and the same is true for other Medium creatures. So Reaching into Space =/= occupying it mechanically.

The question which remains is whether "From where you cast the spell" refers to the space upon which it was cast or the space you occupy while casting it, but I'll concede that on further reflection, it is more likely the former due to traits like Long-limbed.

I don't think the opening part is that much up in the air, especially given the larger problem - I was so engrossed in taking it for granted that I didn't realize, by RAW, Bag of Holding's description does not define its interior as an extradimensional space rather than some unknown magical effect.

But every DM seems to think so, because of Portable Hole's or the Haversack's wording, right? "Placing a portable hole inside an extradimensional space created by a bag of holding, handy haversack, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. ". Except, this is actually still presumed RAI rather than RAW.

RAW, since it isn't written anywhere, we could say that Portable Hole's interaction with an extradimensional space created by the Bag is all well and good, if the bag could create one to begin with - but that it simply never does ( because it isn't in the description ), and thus the interaction is purely hypothetical. This is RAW conflicting with RAI. Its kind of a **** move considering how dumb it would evidenrly be for WOTC to clarify a magical interaction that could never occur, but I guess a DM could do it as an excuse to block rhe combo.

That's not what I'm saying about summons. I'm saying the Glyph explicitly stipulates that If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. Summon Celestial's description is that you summon a friendly creature to yourself and your allies, so why would it qualify?

As for what would happen if your enemy managed to plane shift inside your vessel and knew the right conditions to trigger the spell, or wasn't excluded from them to begin with - The summoned celestial would be friendly to him and his allies, and if commanded, it would attack you.

[HPisBS]

Various parts of that strike me as being highly disjointed (for instance, long-limbed has nothing at all to do with whether the spell description is referring to the position of the caster or the Glyph's sigil at the time of casting), but if that's how you and your group wanna play it, then have fun lol

[Silpharon]

Genuine question: what happens if you go into your vessel in a combat situation and the enemies smash it when you're inside?

Action: enter the vessel
Free action: speak the trigger phrase
Bonus action: leave the vessel

As long as you stick to this you'll be fine. Another option is to have a friend carry you into combat, ready action throw you into combat at the beginning of your turn, then on your turn say the trigger phrase and bonus action out; then you've still got your action to wreak havoc.

For anyone saying this is broken, consider it requires quite a bit of prep work, 100gp per glyph, and can only be used once per day.

[Renduaz]

Various parts of that strike me as being highly disjointed (for instance, long-limbed has nothing at all to do with whether the spell description is referring to the position of the caster or the Glyph's sigil at the time of casting), but if that's how you and your group wanna play it, then have fun lol

I never said it does though? Long-Limbed and Space mechanics are only relevant to establishing that Reaching another space with our limb doesn't mean we occupy it as well, which would render the method impotent if the spell refers to the caster's position at the time of casting, it doesn't tell us if that's actually the case.

In fact I ended up affirming that its more likely the sigil's poaition, and thus your Touch method will work. I mentioned that the understanding that the Bag of Holding actually creates an extradimensional space is frankly very, very reasonable RAI rather than automatic RAW, but that this fun quibble has no bearing in almost any game because most DM's will not seek to smartass it.

So as you said, that leaves us with the issue of the bag opening and how it conceptually affects relative distance. I mean, if we think of it as a permanent Gate spell linking two infinitely far spaces, and considering the object when inscribed is fully inside the bag, I can't see why it would matter. So I think it does work.

[Renduaz]

Action: enter the vessel
Free action: speak the trigger phrase
Bonus action: leave the vessel

As long as you stick to this you'll be fine. Another option is to have a friend carry you into combat, ready action throw you into combat at the beginning of your turn, then on your turn say the trigger phrase and bonus action out; then you've still got your action to wreak havoc.

For anyone saying this is broken, consider it requires quite a bit of prep work, 100gp per glyph, and can only be used once per day.

200gp per glyph, actually. But it does get broken as a nova with a mid-level caster who can cheese out the gold though, which plenty of methods can accomplish. Because chaining several 5th, 4th, and without even getting into 6th and above concentration spells, or even some levels below that can be enough to make you into an invincible one-shot machine.

[HPisBS]

...
In fact I ended up affirming that its more likely the sigil's poaition, and thus your Touch method will work.
...

Oh, my mistake! For some reason, I thought you mentioned the caster's position first lol

[kazaryu]

As for Dispel Magic, you're right, any spell of 3rd level or lower would end and they would need to make checks for each higher level spell. Luckily we could put up Globe of Invulnerability on ourselves though! However, you're wrong about the RAW nuance of casting Dispel Magic at higher levels.

The description says that when you cast it with a higher spell slot, you can end the effects of a spell with equal or lesser level, as opposed to the word any spell of 3rd level or lower.
no, it says


When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th Level or higher, you automatically end the Effects of a spell on the target if the spell's level is equal to or less than the level of the spell slot you used.

while that phrasing, by itself, would be fairly ambiguous. given the context of the entire spell description, its very clearly refers to all spells. and grammatically it works. dispel magic doesn't suddenly become weaker as a result of upcasting. that'd be silly.

but yes, i agree that globe of invulnerability would be super helpful here. then they'd have to close range in order to dispel you.



Dispelling the Vessel itself is ridiculous for a million reasons. First they'll need to know exactly hoe the trick works to begin with and be able to clearly target the vessel which can be corcumvented just by covering it with something ot in someone's underclothes or bags or whatever. Then if they succeeded doing all of that, it absolutely won't work because a planar space outside the Prime and the physical matter of the bottle or lamp are absolutely not a singular object as conformed by the ability's wording regarding extradimensional and hearing 'as of' in its space, nor are entore rooms or homes ttpocallt considered a songle object. I can't dispel every single magical trap in a bunker laor by casting Dispel Magic on the walls.
And of all of that wasn't enough, you don't have a reason to inscribe the glyphs on the floor or walls. Just inscribe them on the cushions or a bunch of ball bearings you brought with you or anything else oh for sure there's no argument that an entire structure is a single object, and thats why i specified a single wall and also liberally discussed it from the POV of DM ruling. and for sure, even if the DM did let you target the lamp, you could inscribe the glyph on independent objects within the space. i was just pointing out the possibilities for completeness sake.
.


There's definitely a lot you can do to someone in an AMF. Because there are spells ehoch utiloze the environment to damage or imprison, though I was more thinking about monsters like Beholders rather than the full radius AMF. Spellcasters usong the full radius AMF are also powerless against me, because I'm flying/burrowing and safe from ranged attacks ( Wind Wall/ etc ) and so forth while they can just walk around.



i mean...i guess you can target the environment. but nothing that would directly affect the person inside the AMF. and even more, you'd need something that is instantaneous. of which there are few. and of the few that exist, they tend to rely on the person moving into them. and you're not going to automatically be safe from ranged attacks. if you have a windwall..thats great, but people can move. at best (for you) you're at an impasse. they can't hurt you, and you can't hurt them (again, unless you have ranged weapons, which is entirely possible and also something i included earlier).

[Kane0]

Neato! Imma just tuck this away with my 'Magic Mouth shenanigans' file.

[Ogun]

A small sized caster should be able to fit entirely inside a bag of holding.
That should take care of the distance between point of casting and the objects.

[Azuresun]

If you're worried that your DM is going to look for a creative way to say "No" then it probably isn't a good idea to run an idea like this with that table. After all, they could just take the non-creative way of saying "No."

Or possibly saying: "No, and since you're just looking for a way to break the game and hog the spotlight with an obviously busted combo, good luck finding a new game.".

There's something fundamentally disrespectful about pulling a blatant game-breaker unless the DM and other players have explicitly said they're okay with it--and if I'm thinking in terms of "How do I use the RAW to strong-arm the GM into going with this?", it's pretty obvious they're not.

[Citadel97501]

So we now have a Coffee-lock, and a Glyph-lock both of which can have a massive number of spell effects available but instead of the variety of the Coffee-lock, a Glyph-lock gets access to multiple concentration spells active at one time although you only get to trigger these spells once per long rest as you can't enter the vessel more than once per long rest.

This glyph-lock concept does seem to really value more support oriented characters but be cautious as some buffs won't be effective.

Glyph-lock:
-Creation Bard of level 10
-Genie Warlock of level 10

This gives you Sanctuary Vessel, which would let you buff your party or yourself, and create a glyph every 10 minutes with no material components. One of the best parts for hilarity is your vessel can be used to attack & debuff, if you want due to Animating Performance.

How many glyphs: You could store roughly 20 of these glyphs per day...10 minute short rest with 1 glyph of warding taking one hour to cast...5 buffs &/or heals per party member with a 4 person party.
Issues: You can't use polymorph tricks with this as most of the good forms are going to be to big for your vessel, and could only fit 4 large targets.

[Rukelnikov]

This trick is pretty old indeed. Regarding what's been talked about from my skim of the thread:

The bag of holding stuff with your hand inside it, its too much of a border case, it most likely doesn't have a RAW answer. What you could do is cast the spell while being inside the bag, your only problem would be oxygen, so just get some way of not needing to breathe (like being an Air Genasi or Warforged).

Regarding the summons, take into account this is a PHB spell. AFAIR there are no spells in the PHB that summon creatures explicitly hostile to you, so the argument that a conjure elemental wouldn't attack the creature that triggers the glyph is iffy at best, since no summoning spell you could attach to the glyph would work.

[DwarfFighter]

Concentration has fallen, Long Live the Genie King.

I'm curious though. Who's casting the Glyph?

It's not on the Warlock list, so you're kind of dependent on the GM allowing multi-classing, and as I say: If you need your GM's permission, you've achieved nothing.

-DF

[HPisBS]

I'm curious though. Who's casting the Glyph?

It's not on the Warlock list, so you're kind of dependent on the GM allowing multi-classing, and as I say: If you need your GM's permission, you've achieved nothing.

-DF

The idea, iirc, is to only dip Genielock, since the important / semi-unique thing it gives you is an extradimensional space you can enter and store stuff each day.

It's a long OP, and he neglected to capitalize "Creation Bard" the one time that he mentioned it (there at the end), so this misunderstanding is understandable.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm going to join in with those saying that this works like a bag of holding or portable hole: moving the bag/hole/bottle is motion for the purposes of glyphs stored in the extra-dimensional space. Is that explicit? No. But there's nothing about these sorts of effects that make me think otherwise either, and ambiguity always rules against the guy trying to break the game.

[HPisBS]

I'm going to join in with those saying that this works like a bag of holding or portable hole: moving the bag/hole/bottle is motion for the purposes of glyphs stored in the extra-dimensional space. Is that explicit? No. But there's nothing about these sorts of effects that make me think otherwise either, and ambiguity always rules against the guy trying to break the game.

... Pretty sure that all the mentions of the Bag, etc, that make extradimensional spaces were saying that they do/should work. Or, at worst, that "there's an argument to be made" for why it doesn't work if the DM wants to shut such an exploit down.

But my memory may be faulty, and I'm not willing to go back and re-read the thread atm

[DwarfFighter]

If you have a Wizard that casts Glyph of Warding on an object and the Genie Warlock takes that object into its bottle, isn't that object moved an infinite distance, i.e. more than 10 ft.?

-DF

[Rukelnikov]

If you have a Wizard that casts Glyph of Warding on an object and the Genie Warlock takes that object into its bottle, isn't that object moved an infinite distance, i.e. more than 10 ft.?

-DF

Its moved "infinite" distance. But the idea, as far as i understand, is casting the glyphs inside the bottle, not outside and taking them inside.

[Silpharon]

So we now have a Coffee-lock, and a Glyph-lock both of which can have a massive number of spell effects available but instead of the variety of the Coffee-lock, a Glyph-lock gets access to multiple concentration spells active at one time although you only get to trigger these spells once per long rest as you can't enter the vessel more than once per long rest.

This glyph-lock concept does seem to really value more support oriented characters but be cautious as some buffs won't be effective.

Glyph-lock:
-Creation Bard of level 10
-Genie Warlock of level 10

This gives you Sanctuary Vessel, which would let you buff your party or yourself, and create a glyph every 10 minutes with no material components. One of the best parts for hilarity is your vessel can be used to attack & debuff, if you want due to Animating Performance.

How many glyphs: You could store roughly 20 of these glyphs per day...10 minute short rest with 1 glyph of warding taking one hour to cast...5 buffs &/or heals per party member with a 4 person party.
Issues: You can't use polymorph tricks with this as most of the good forms are going to be to big for your vessel, and could only fit 4 large targets.

You can only enter the vessel once per long rest, so the 10 minute short rest trick would only work once. You could pick up Catnap and get a third short rest. But what are the short rests for? Creation bard just uses 2nd level spell slots to reuse their creation feature. Glyph of Warding itself isn't a warlock spell, but maybe your buff would be?

[Jon talks a lot]

I feel like I'm missing something. Can't a High-Level Wizard do the same thing with demiplane?

Sure it's at high level, but you don't have to sacrifice progression, class, and subclass for it.

Edit: And your DM is much more likely to be fine with it. It makes this strategy much less contrived theorycrafting and much more a reality.

[Citadel97501]

You can only enter the vessel once per long rest, so the 10 minute short rest trick would only work once. You could pick up Catnap and get a third short rest. But what are the short rests for? Creation bard just uses 2nd level spell slots to reuse their creation feature. Glyph of Warding itself isn't a warlock spell, but maybe your buff would be?

You are correct on parts of this, but I believe your misunderstanding one of the key parts. Namely, you don't need to leave the vessel each time, in fact you want to stay in for hours at a time taking a break and then casting the glyphs on the walls of the interior of the vessel. Glyph of Warding, is on the bard list. You can also still use warlock slots to cast the glyph as long as you have it so with this character at level 10 (Bard 5, Warlock 5).

[Silpharon]

You are correct on parts of this, but I believe your misunderstanding one of the key parts. Namely, you don't need to leave the vessel each time, in fact you want to stay in for hours at a time taking a break and then casting the glyphs on the walls of the interior of the vessel. Glyph of Warding, is on the bard list. You can also still use warlock slots to cast the glyph as long as you have it so with this character at level 10 (Bard 5, Warlock 5).

Ah, ok. It's not clear whether staying in the vessel for subsequent 10 minute periods also count as short rests. Regardless, cool trick with this combo!

[Ogun]

I like this on a small sized Artificer with a bag of holding.
Maybe Artificer 2/Wizard X?

[Silpharon]

I like this on a small sized Artificer with a bag of holding.
Maybe Artificer 2/Wizard X?

Yeah that could work. There's also the enlarge/reduce spell, but the duration is too short for casting the glyph. You might be able to have your Homunculus Servant cast the glyph for you inside the bag (they are tiny constructs). You'd have to reach in the bag to hold them either while they do it or just to get them started. Enlarge/reduce could be then used to go in the bag, receive the buff, and get back out.

Small size is definitely easier.

[HPisBS]

Why are you lot so focused on the caster being in the glyph's space? So long as the "the surface or object is [not] moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell" -- as in from where the thing was when you inscribed it, you're good.

[anthon]

Absolutely PHENOMENAL finding. I totally missed that. This is a real game changer. I think it's time to make 1 Warlock/19 Creation Bard guy who has his "ban-kai" ready inside his bottle. And gold won't be an issue, though you still have to buy powder somewhere.

Though Wizard would also work with artistan tools proficiency using Fabricate spell and using gold coins to produce gold amulets, rings, jewelery etc. and selling them for more gold than it was used becaue of artistic values (items always cost more than materials and since it's gold... ).

So 1 Genie/19 Wizard with Fabricate to farm gold can also spam Glyphs inside Bottle. I would probably go with Blade Singer here as before we get Tenser Transformation only Blade Singer gets extra attacks. Stacking Haste, Shadow Blade, Blurr, Mirror Image, Dragon Breath would be really nice for big battles.

Awesome concept. I think It will be my next build.

You sir get 10/10 for this one :)


i find it sad that we needed such an obscure loophole to do what we had been doing in early editions for decades. Stacking is cool. Stacking is logical. Concentration Mechanic can go suck an egg.

if you didn't notice, you can wear a headgear visor over your protective goggles over glasses. By modern D&D logic, this is impossible, but i do it all the time in my work shop, and *GASP* it STACKS

[BerzerkerUnit]

i find it sad that we needed such an obscure loophole to do what we had been doing in early editions for decades. Stacking is cool. Stacking is logical. Concentration Mechanic can go suck an egg.

if you didn't notice, you can wear a headgear visor over your protective goggles over glasses. By modern D&D logic, this is impossible, but i do it all the time in my work shop, and *GASP* it STACKS

I think the difference is earlier editions of the game were a little more adversarial. The rules themselves were at times unintuitive. Some monsters were clearly cheap tricks used to punish players (Rust Monsters, Black Puddings, Gelatinous Cubes, Mindflayers, etc).

So closely reading the rules and using their logical underpinnings to create boss buster combos was kind of expected. I would think Gygax and crew probably loved the idea of their players poring over what they'd written to try and puzzle out a way to use it against them.

With that in mind, modern editions don't want players to feel like they need to make building their character a part time job to win those final fights. They left in some overtuned obvious schtick (PAM/GWM, Sharpshooter, Shield spell etc) so anyone can pick up the book and make a hero.

But doing that means those of us cutting our teeth on earlier editions will find busted combos.

All of that said, I don't see any problem with any of this, but for pure mechanical efficiency, the portable hole or Demiplane are still better since you can just fill them with Acid Sphere or any damaging spell. Then you open the bag or cast Demiplane and when it opens an arbitrarily large number of magic missiles flies out. Though if crossing planar boundaries is an infinite distance thing, then that might not work, but I've pretty consistently seen it used that people can shoot into a Demiplane if the door is open, so ymmv.

[NorthernPhoenix]

If you're worried that your DM is going to look for a creative way to say "No" then it probably isn't a good idea to run an idea like this with that table. After all, they could just take the non-creative way of saying "No."

This cannot be stated enough. I usually read these kind of threads to keep "up to date" with whatever kind of sillyness players might look up when they google "best warlock" or whatever, and this is a perfect example of something you just say "no" to.

[Ogun]

Why are you lot so focused on the caster being in the glyph's space? So long as the "the surface or object is [not] moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell" -- as in from where the thing was when you inscribed it, you're good.

10 feet from where YOU were when you cast it, isnt same as 10 feet from where IT was when you cast it.

[Rukelnikov]

This cannot be stated enough. I usually read these kind of threads to keep "up to date" with whatever kind of sillyness players might look up when they google "best warlock" or whatever, and this is a perfect example of something you just say "no" to.

The Warlock is not the "problem" here, the exploit can be replicated by many classes, the "problem" is Glyph of Warding

[NorthernPhoenix]

The Warlock is not the "problem" here, the exploit can be replicated by many classes, the "problem" is Glyph of Warding

That was just an example of how someone who isn't always on these forums would find something like this and bring it to a table. Personally, i think if anyone is trying to leverage any kind of exploit against their DM in an adversarial manner, the problem extends beyond the game. Any DM (especially new ones), should feel comfortable saying "no" to something like this, and if they don't, then the books haven't made the fact that they should clear enough.

[HPisBS]

10 feet from where YOU were when you cast it, isnt same as 10 feet from where IT was when you cast it.

From where you cast it, as in its point of origin.

If Delayed Blast Fireball said "Each creature within 20 ft of where you cast the spell takes 12d6 fire damage," would that refer to your location, or the spell's location? Clearly the latter.



... Personally, i think if anyone is trying to leverage any kind of exploit against their DM in an adversarial manner, the problem extends beyond the game. Any DM (especially new ones), should feel comfortable saying "no" to something like this....

What's "adversarial" about it? If players want to "break" some central part of the fictional world somehow, like destroying the Mage Judicars for having the audacity to take umbrage with their murder-hobo-y ways, then sure, I guess. Otherwise, layering some spells like this is just playing smart. (And it isn't exactly a new thing, either. Wasn't stacking buff spells pretty standard in previous editions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4Zw61Z-qzY)?)

If you want your players to use the tactic sparingly or judiciously, then you can just make diamonds harder to come by; once they've bought a whole bunch, the supply could be all used up for a while, thus preventing them from pulling the hoard out every time something significant comes up.

Remember this is a game where PCs can just straight up conjure a whole Fortress for themselves. Do that 52 weeks in a row and it even becomes permanent. It's one of the only games where you're basically meant to amass that kind of wealth / power. If this is what your players want to spend their in-game wealth on, then let them have their version of the power fantasy. (It'd probably be cheaper to hire some mercenary mages to follow them around casting Haste, etc, anyway -- assuming the PCs could keep them alive.)

[Ogun]

From where you cast it, as in its point of origin.

If Delayed Blast Fireball said "Each creature within 20 ft of where you cast the spell takes 12d6 fire damage," would that refer to your location, or the spell's location? Clearly the latter.


For better or worse, that isn't how delayed blast fire ball is worded.
Look, I agreed that RAI is as you say, but the RAW is ambiguous at best.
Since this is a rules lawyer-ing exercise, the impulse is to avoid any rules ambiguity that might be used to dispute the validity of the exploit.
Thus we cast from inside the extradimensional space, to avoid the ambiguity.

FWIW, I like the idea of a small caster taking cover in a bag of holding .
Adding some powerups is a nice bonus.
I think the creation bard ability to eliminate the material component cost is the thing that makes this too damn good.

[HPisBS]

...
I think the creation bard ability to eliminate the material component cost is the thing that makes this too damn good.

Agreed. It takes it from a relatively insignificant cost (for mid-level PCs) to a nonexistent cost. Since it's such a low-level ability, I'd add a clause about not being able to use it to create consumable spell components.

[follacchioso]

I did something like this with a high level Wizard character with access to Wish. Apart from covering the lair with traps, she had a few "preparation rooms" full of enhancing glyphs, activated on a password, ranging from the fly/haste everyday combo, to healing for the emergency situations.

One thing to take into account is that this strategy is very expensive, until you get access to Wish. At that point, it is overpowered, so the DM house ruled a limit of active glyphs per character. Even with Wish, this is something that takes time to set up, as you can only cast it once per day. It's good for the special occasions, but you can't use it for every combat.

The Creation Bard combo is nice, but the problem I see is that bards do not have many suitable spells in their list, and they are also limited by the number of spell known.
A quick look at the Bard spell list gives me Cure Wounds, Enhance Ability, Intellect Fortress, NonDetection, Tongues, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility / Greater Invisibility, and True Seeing; these are all great spells, but there is no Fly, Haste, Outiluke Resilient Sphere are not there. You can get them through Magical Secrets, but that is a very steep cost. So you are building your whole character on the assumption that you will be able to power up for the very important fights, including your choice of subclass, but in reality you won't have many buffs to prepare, and you will also have fewer offensive spells known because your selection is tied to the glyph.


Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

[HPisBS]

Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

Sure they are. "Self" = "targets a single creature." The one creature it targets is just always the caster's own self. (Or in this case, the creature that triggered the glyph's own self.)

[quindraco]

If my work has borne any fruit at all, the Genie Warlock's Bottled Respite should be well known by now as one of the most broken 1st level, or frankly any level feature around considering all you can do with it, yet I somehow missed ( And seemingly eso did everyone else ) what could be one of the most broken uses to ever grace DND 5E.

And I am approaching this cautiously, since there's a bit of ambiguity and I understand something like this will be under intense examination, but from my understanding of the RAW and RAI, it should work. The trick is quite simple - You stack a bunch of floor spots or objects with Glyph of Warding ( Spell Glyph ) and trigger all of them when nearby to gain an infinite amount of concentration spells durations without concentrating ( Yes, it works like that ) or non-concentration buffs or instant heals for that matter.

This can already be cheesed with a Demiplane by the way, a fact that is strangely enough rarely registered in most spellcaster nova builds clutching at every straw for extra boosts, and I've been guilty of that in some of my build posts too. You can leave glyphs in a Demiplane, cast the spell with one action, walk in the door, and exit with every single stacking effect on your spell list.

But can we go even lower level? I've seen discussions online of players previously trying this with magical items like Bag of Holding which has been ruled out for both true reasons, I.E moving glyph items in and out of the bag is against the RAW, but also for false assumptions that were in fact debunked by Sage Advice. Meanwhile a consensus exists that you could achieve it with an item like Portable Hole (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/113708/can-a-portable-hole-be-used-to-get-around-the-10-movement-restriction-on-glyph) as long as the glyphs remain where they were cast within the extradimensional space.

Which is the right call regarding the RAW by the way, but still requires a very specific magical item. Bottled Respite, on the other hand, is a level 1 class feature that functions under the same principles, and I'll share some clarifications as to why other than the obvious similarities, starting with some fundamental premises:



Extradimensional spaces are always outside of other planes, and separate from them. Secondly, things which exist on separate planes are always infinitely far away, and your or anything's three-dimensional position on one plane is not relative to the position of anything in another, even if you might intuitively assume so.

So keep in mind that when you teleport inside the 'interior' of the Genie's Vessel, with the physical object/lamp acting as a 'portal key' to activate the planar shift, you are no longer on the Prime, and are infinitely far away from whichever patch of dirt you formerly stood on and infinitely far away from the Vessel's physical exterior back on the prime, and much like a Demiplane, the space you see is relative only to itself.

So you can be reassured that when casting a Glyph inside the Vessel, and someone moves the exterior back on the Prime, it isn't broken just because the exterior was moved 10 feet away from its last position in the Prime. You never cast the spell while standing in that position anyway, and the extradimensional space is infinitely far away from any position on other planes. By the way, same reason you won't mess up your whole decor by turning a vessel upside down and shaking it ( Psst, there's nothing really physically there ).

You might wonder if you are moving the entire plane by moving the vessel, but as demonstrated just above, it isn't the case first of all. Rotating the vessel has no effect, gravity on the Prime has no effect and you can't feel any g-forces by the vessel travelling at high speeds, as long as it doesn't break.

This is, again, because the space, despite its name, is extradimensional to 3D Prime space and exists infinitely far away and outside of the prime rather than inside, per RAW. Either way, the trajectory of whole planes usually isn't considered relevant for the purposes of spells like these. I mean, Toril doesn't even encompass the Prime and yet its Solar Orbit doesn't count, if only beause anything you put on it is atttacted to its center of gravity, and extradimensional spaces have their own gravity sources.

Armed with the judgement of the Compendium and Crawford's definitive statements, RAW is seemingly covered, which means we can use our action on Bottled Respite, get empowered by the might of up to every duration spell in our whole goddamn spell list as long as the effects don't overlap like temp HP, and pop back out into battle. I dub this sequence as 'The Avatar of Mystra' or 'Apotheosis Combo'. And its available to any caster with a level of Genielock.

Even if someone tries to dispel it, they can only dispel one at the time, and Antimagic Field merely surpasses the effects, they're done for as soon as you are out of range. Of course, there is also a significant monetary cost involved with unlimited arcane power, but.. you know which full caster is already incredibly powerful, makes for one of the best builds around with a Genielock, and can create 200gp per spell slot of 2nd level or higher by level 10? You guessed right, a creation bard! Now the expenditure is just in downtime spent to prepare your vessel with glyphs.

Let all the nova burst and summoner and utility caster builders in the realm know: Concentration has fallen, Long Live the Genie King.

It's not available to any caster: spell glyphs can only store prepared spells, per their text.

These casters can't prepare their spells:
Warlocks
Eldritch Knights
Arcane Tricksters
Rangers
Sorcerers
Bards

That leaves preparation casters - Wizards, Artificers, Clerics, Druids, and Paladins.

Druids and Paladins don't have the spell on their spell list and it's a 3rd level spell, so I don't know of a way for them to get the spell without multiclassing. Certainly once they have it, they can spell-glyph their prepared spells.

You need 5 levels of Bard, Cleric, or Wizard, or 9 levels of Artificer, to get your hands on Glyph of Warding. That means a Druid or Paladin trying this trick has to dump a minimum of 6 levels and a maximum of 10 into other classes in order to possess Bottled Respite and Glyph of Warding simultaneously. With only 10 remaining levels for their "primary" class, I'm not sure how... abusable this is, although it does sound promising.

Now, if you're a Wizard, Cleric, or Artificer, and you have CHA 13+, for sure a 1-level dip in Genielock for this trick sounds promising AF if you have the downtime and gp to prepare it. I haven't thought of any other problems with your proposal, although I certainly might have missed something.

Additional note on the gp cost: whether or not a Conjuration Wizard's conjurations retain the gp value of their mundane counterpart is subject to GM houserule, and in spades so is the question of whether a Conjuration Wizard can legally create incense and powdered diamond in bulk, as to many GMs, including me, one object means one object, so if you try to conjure a powder, you get one granule of it. That's why I didn't immediately dispense with the gp cost of the procedure.

[Silpharon]

Sure they are. "Self" = "targets a single creature." The one creature it targets is just always the caster's own self. (Or in this case, the creature that triggered the glyph's own self.)

JC actually said the opposite in a tweet. Suggesting that glyphs cannot contain self target spells. The notion is that the glyph is always acting upon someone/something that triggered it.

There are still plenty of good buffs, but the 'self' ones are still limited to one at a time AFAIK.

[HPisBS]

JC actually said the opposite in a tweet. Suggesting that glyphs cannot contain self target spells. The notion is that the glyph is always acting upon someone/something that triggered it.

... And? That sounds like an absolute non-sequitur. Stupid utterances (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkzQTGkPFg&t=4s) should always be rejected (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s).

[Silpharon]

... And? That sounds like an absolute non-sequitur. Stupid utterances (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkzQTGkPFg&t=4s) should always be rejected (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s).

To each their own. I tend to respect JC's opinion to determine RAI, but you're entitled not to. Here's the reference:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/929428166745120768

[quindraco]

I did something like this with a high level Wizard character with access to Wish. Apart from covering the lair with traps, she had a few "preparation rooms" full of enhancing glyphs, activated on a password, ranging from the fly/haste everyday combo, to healing for the emergency situations.

One thing to take into account is that this strategy is very expensive, until you get access to Wish. At that point, it is overpowered, so the DM house ruled a limit of active glyphs per character. Even with Wish, this is something that takes time to set up, as you can only cast it once per day. It's good for the special occasions, but you can't use it for every combat.

The Creation Bard combo is nice, but the problem I see is that bards do not have many suitable spells in their list, and they are also limited by the number of spell known.
A quick look at the Bard spell list gives me Cure Wounds, Enhance Ability, Intellect Fortress, NonDetection, Tongues, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility / Greater Invisibility, and True Seeing; these are all great spells, but there is no Fly, Haste, Outiluke Resilient Sphere are not there. You can get them through Magical Secrets, but that is a very steep cost. So you are building your whole character on the assumption that you will be able to power up for the very important fights, including your choice of subclass, but in reality you won't have many buffs to prepare, and you will also have fewer offensive spells known because your selection is tied to the glyph.


Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

Where are people getting the idea Bards can inscribe Spell Glyphs with their Bard spells in the first place? I checked, and there's no errata. You have to have a spell prepared to inscribe it into a Spell Glyph, and Bards can't prepare spells. I see a whole lot of Creation Bard emphasis in this thread, but Wizard and Cleric are the preparation full casters with Glyph of Warding on their spell list - and if your GM is generous enough to let "one object" be a pile of powder, rather than one granule, conjuration wizards are better at the same trick creation bards are good at, due to having no gp limit (the items both classes create emit sensory effects, so it's possible for a GM to house rule these conjured items are worthless and hence can't be valuable spell components, but that ruling would apply to both classes equally). I genuinely don't understand why anyone would even attempt this build with a creation bard rather than a conjuration wizard.

[JNAProductions]

Bards have it natively on their list. Saying they can’t use it seems to be reaching to make it bad.

[Rukelnikov]

Bards have it natively on their list. Saying they can’t use it seems to be reaching to make it bad.

Well, to be fair, the description of GoW says "You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level...", it does say prepared, bards could still use the explosive runes version of the spell.

If the RAW cheese of the spell is allowed, then the RAW limitations should be applied too, otherwise its complaining about something being OP while facilititating it to be OP.

[Valmark]

Well, to be fair, the description of GoW says "You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level...", it does say prepared, bards could still use the explosive runes version of the spell.

If the RAW cheese of the spell is allowed, then the RAW limitations should be applied too, otherwise its complaining about something being OP while facilititating it to be OP.

Admitedly if the DM isn't ruling against such an exploit (which would be easy to rule against while sticking to RAW) then ruling that one specific class doesn't get to use it as intended despite having it on the spell list is indeed a bit pointless.

If I was a bardlock going for it I'd prefer that a DM said 'it doesn't work' instead of 'your character's class can't use the tools it has well'

Unless that was something agreed on beforehand (like a session 0).

[HPisBS]

Admitedly if the DM isn't ruling against such an exploit (which would be easy to rule against while sticking to RAW) ...

How's that again? By saying the interior of an extradimensional space tied to an item is moved when the item moves? If that's it, then OK, sure.

Anything else, like blocking full-fledged Demiplane combos, basically amounts to "It doesn't work because I say it doesn't" (afaict).


Far more reasonable to just make the components harder and harder to come by as the PCs consume them all. If the concern is specifically PCs conjuring their own, then rule that consuming the components breaks the magic on the item(s) before the spell can complete.

[Valmark]

How's that again? By saying the interior of an extradimensional space tied to an item is moved when the item moves? If that's it, then OK, sure.

Anything else, like blocking full-fledged Demiplane combos, basically amounts to "It doesn't work because I say it doesn't" (afaict).


Far more reasonable to just make the components harder and harder to come by as the PCs consume them all. If the concern is specifically PCs conjuring their own, then rule that consuming the components breaks the magic on the item(s) before the spell can complete.

Yes to the first- basically I read it as 'you make the Glyphs inside the Vessel, you move the Vessel (for more then 10 feet), the Glyphs break'.

Demiplane would be perfectly fine as far as I can see, yeah.

[Citadel97501]

Yes to the first- basically I read it as 'you make the Glyphs inside the Vessel, you move the Vessel (for more then 10 feet), the Glyphs break'.

Demiplane would be perfectly fine as far as I can see, yeah.

Well which is why the original poster, noted that Crawford has said that the distance from the exterior of the vessel to the interior is infinite, which suggests that moving them shouldn't matter.

[Valmark]

Well which is why the original poster, noted that Crawford has said that the distance from the exterior of the vessel to the interior is infinite, which suggests that moving them shouldn't matter.

Yeah, if Crawford (or the SAC) was a trustworthy source of information I'd agree. But they are not (and if it was Crawford and not the SAC it doesn't even count as official, which may further not convince a potential DM).

[HPisBS]

Slight tangent: The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space... does that also mean it exists on some other plane? (For the purposes of effects that only work "as long as you are on the same plane of existence," like Voice of the Chain Master.)


Edit:
Speaking of synergistic invocations, would Ghostly Gaze let you see through the vessel's walls? (You can already hear as though you were in the vessel's space.)