Does wotc even understand their Clerics?

[Schwann145]

Is it just me, or is Heavy Armor Prof. and/or Divine Strike handed out like candy, even when the Domain is clearly a caster (like Tempest, arguably Life or Nature, definitely Twilight and Death, etc)?

[Dork_Forge]

Agree on Twilight, that was an unnecessary addition to an already bananas subclass.

[Trask]

Yeah they don't handle armor proficiencies well at all when it comes to the cleric class. Subclasses that need it, don't have it. Subclasses that don't need it, get it. Its pretty lazy.

[Lunali]

It feels to me like they had a specific god in mind when they created each domain, and the proficiencies and abilities are based on their vision of a cleric of that god. However, I'm not interested enough to try and match them up to see if I'm right.

[Luccan]

I kinda feel like Nature Clerics got heavy armor to better distinguish them from Druids. Life domain gets heavy armor because healer + remaining standing longer = good. While Tempest clerics clearly want you to cast certain spells, they have other abilities that make it clear you should be in the thick of it, so being able to smack around some foes with a weapon better and get hit less often makes some sense. Also, I'm pretty sure Death has Divine Strike because it's a more intimidating ability for a bad guy to hit you extra hard with a weapon than to do a handful of extra damage with a cantrip.

There's also a pretty clear correlation between heavy armor and Divine Strike (or martial weapons and Divine Strike for Death). Honestly the only one I feel is objectionable vis-à-vis Divine Strike is Life domain, but even then I don't actually think Potent Spellcasting makes anymore sense. Your thing is healing, why would you have any feature that deals extra damage?

[MoiMagnus]

I've gone through the different domains, and here are some remarks:
(1) Heavy Armour and Divine Strike are paired. The only exception is the Trickster with Divine Strike but no Heavy Armour.
(2) In absence of Heavy Armour, you have some out-of-combat utility, like skills or utility cantrips. The only domain that have those on top of Heavy Armour proficiency is the Nature domain.

Features at level 1 and level 6 for domains of PHB/SwordCoast/Xanathar/Tasha:
Arcana: Arcana skill & 2 cantrips; Potent Spellcaster
Forge: Heavy armour & blessing; Divine Strike
Grave: 1 buffed cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Knowledge: More skills; Potent Spellcaster
Life: Heavy armour & better healing; Divine Strike
Light: 1 cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Nature: Heavy armour & 1 cantrip & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Order: Heavy armour & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Peace: 1 skill & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Tempest: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
Trickster: Stealth bonus; Divine Strike
Twilight: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
War: Martial weapon & Heavy armour & other bonus; Divine Strike

[Droppeddead]

Your thing is healing, why would you have any feature that deals extra damage?

Because it's easier to heal your friends if there aren't any people around you that try to kill them? :P

[Kane0]

Also even if life cleric is the designated healbot option, even then you probably don’t want to be *just* the healbot.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I think they tied their hands a bit by adhering too strongly to rigid rules.

If there were basically more than two options for a level 8 ability or if some domains got things other than a different channel divinity use at level 2. I think that Alternative Class Features were one fix, but I think that this hasn't worked as I might have hoped.

[Chronic]

I truly don't see any problems with clerics, they have varied domain and have an excellent chassis. Even heavy armor is more often than not a trade off. Sure, ac is good, but going dex provide good ac too, allow you to invest in stealth and is an overall better stat than strength. Sure you don't have to put 15 strength and could take a penalty to movement, but to me movement is highly valuable.
Divine strike is a less useful potent cantrip, and that's on purpose, it reinforce domain identity, giving more powerful ranged option to backline clerics while encouraging frontline clerics to be in the fray.

[stoutstien]

Is it just me, or is Heavy Armor Prof. and/or Divine Strike handed out like candy, even when the Domain is clearly a caster (like Tempest, arguably Life or Nature, definitely Twilight and Death, etc)?

All clerics are primarily casters so DS and marital weapons are hard to leverage for any cleric. H armor is mostly a side grade rather than an upgrade. The lack of any domain with extra attack is really the only option i see as missing from the class line up.

Death is an odd ball with martial weapons proficiency but no H armor. Death likes dexterity I guess.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly the only one I feel is objectionable vis-à-vis Divine Strike is Life domain, but even then I don't actually think Potent Spellcasting makes anymore sense. Your thing is healing, why would you have any feature that deals extra damage? Because you are the chosen one of your deity to go out on adventures and deal with the dangerous foes of {X} ... but Divine Strike seems to me a less great idea than potent spellcasting ... though tastes will differ on that.

Also even if life cleric is the designated healbot option, even then you probably don’t want to be *just* the healbot. Spiritual Guardians, Banishment, Spiritual Weapon ... many ways to be more than a healbot.

[Frogreaver]

I've gone through the different domains, and here are some remarks:
(1) Heavy Armour and Divine Strike are paired. The only exception is the Trickster with Divine Strike but no Heavy Armour.
(2) In absence of Heavy Armour, you have some out-of-combat utility, like skills or utility cantrips. The only domain that have those on top of Heavy Armour proficiency is the Nature domain.

Features at level 1 and level 6 for domains of PHB/SwordCoast/Xanathar/Tasha:
Arcana: Arcana skill & 2 cantrips; Potent Spellcaster
Forge: Heavy armour & blessing; Divine Strike
Grave: 1 buffed cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Knowledge: More skills; Potent Spellcaster
Life: Heavy armour & better healing; Divine Strike
Light: 1 cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Nature: Heavy armour & 1 cantrip & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Order: Heavy armour & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Peace: 1 skill & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Tempest: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
Trickster: Stealth bonus; Divine Strike
Twilight: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
War: Martial weapon & Heavy armour & other bonus; Divine Strike

The only 2 here that make me scratch my head is Nature and Twilight.

Life makes perfect sense to me when you view it as being the iconic D&D style Cleric. Every other Domain that gets Heavy Armor should get Heavy Armor IMO.

[stoutstien]

Because you are the chosen one of your deity to go out on adventures and deal with the dangerous foes of {X} ... but Divine Strike seems to me a less great idea than potent spellcasting ... though tastes will differ on that.
Spiritual Guardians, Banishment, Spiritual Weapon ... many ways to be more than a healbot.

If anything, Life cleric is about maximizing healing so you spend less time doing it and more time applying a more direct extension of the will of your deity via blunt force.

[Frogreaver]

Because you are the chosen one of your deity to go out on adventures and deal with the dangerous foes of {X} ... but Divine Strike seems to me a less great idea than potent spellcasting ... though tastes will differ on that.

I think it's generally accepted that potent spellcasting is the better feature - some may prefer the Divine Strike for thematic reasons though.


Spiritual Guardians, Banishment, Spiritual Weapon ... many ways to be more than a healbot.

Outside Domain Spells I think you've listed the sum total of spells a Cleric would use to not be a heal bot. I don't find that to represent many ways to be more than a healbot.

[RogueJK]

Don't forget that Tasha's allows any Cleric to effectively have both Divine Strike and Potent Spellcasting, through substituting the Blessed Strikes Optional Class Feature.

So if you want to be something like a Life Cleric slingling cantrips from the back line, you can. Same if you want to be an Arcana Cleric swinging a mace on the front line.

[stoutstien]

Outside Domain Spells I think you've listed the sum total of spells a Cleric would use to not be a heal bot. I don't find that to represent many ways to be more than a healbot.

To be fair they're quite decent at summoning minions, undead or otherwise. They also have a good array of utility, buffing, debuffing, and control spells and features to use as well. They really just don't have direct blasting on hand without factoring domain spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's generally accepted that potent spellcasting is the better feature - some may prefer the Divine Strike for thematic reasons though.



Outside Domain Spells I think you've listed the sum total of spells a Cleric would use to not be a heal bot. I don't find that to represent many ways to be more than a healbot. Flame strike comes to mind.

Also neat stuff like command and hold person, Guiding Bolt and Inflict Wounds (the former is one of my favorite level 1 spells), Tasha's summon celestial spell (it has neat options), Blindness/Deafness is a killer debuff (and does not have concentration!), DispeL Magic/Remove curse, (Need to find out if Sickening Radiance is in XGTE or not ... IIRC a cleric spell), Glyph of warding, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Blade Barrier ... and AMF.

[MrStabby]

Outside Domain Spells I think you've listed the sum total of spells a Cleric would use to not be a heal bot. I don't find that to represent many ways to be more than a healbot.

Aid, bless, guidance, domain spells, command, protection from evil and good, guiding bolt, commune, augury, hold person, silence, dispell magic, hallow, animate dead, raise dead, plana binding, hallow, forbidance...

Lods of non healing good cleric spells.

[stoutstien]

Don't forget that Tasha's allows any Cleric to effectively have both Divine Strike and Potent Spellcasting, through substituting the Blessed Strikes Optional Class Feature.

So if you want to be something like a Life Cleric slingling cantrips from the back line, you can. Same if you want to be an Arcana Cleric swinging a mace on the front line.

Blessed strike is more flexible but it also never scales like DS and with certain combination potent can be used as a reaction as well. It's part of the corner stone of the arcane cleric BB+WC combo.

BS is probably going to be very popular due to not being lock into one or the other if a table has it available.

[RogueJK]

Outside Domain Spells I think you've listed the sum total of spells a Cleric would use to not be a heal bot.

Not even close. See also:

Bane
Command
Guiding Bolt
Inflict Wounds
Blindness/Deafness
Hold Person
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Spirit Shroud
Banishment
Guardian of Faith
Contagion
Dawn
Flamestrike
Holy Weapon
Insect Plague
Summon Celestial
Blade Barrier
Create Undead
Harm
Planar Ally
Conjure Celestial
Divine Word
Fire Storm
Symbol
Earthquake
Gate

And those are just the offensive spells. That's not even mentioning all the various buff spells or utility spells available to them too.

[Luccan]

Also even if life cleric is the designated healbot option, even then you probably don’t want to be *just* the healbot.

Sure, no one really wants that, though I'd argue it's hard to make the 5e cleric into just a healbot even with your subclass features all being focused on healing. You can do plenty of damage without Potent Spellcasting or Divine Strike. I'm just saying that if it's a question of theme then Life domain giving damage-dealing abilities isn't thematic at all, regardless of which you pick.

[Jerrykhor]

I was pretty disappointed that Twilight Cleric didn't get some kind of Unarmored Defense ability. Even Tasha mention their sect to be all about wearing eveningwear. Heavy armor would totally ruin it.

[Greywander]

Don't forget that Tasha's allows any Cleric to effectively have both Divine Strike and Potent Spellcasting, through substituting the Blessed Strikes Optional Class Feature.
My issue with Blessed Strikes is that you can only apply it to one creature per round. You know what makes a really good cantrip for melee? Word of Radiance. Potent Spellcasting ironically makes you better in melee than Divine Strike or Blessed Strikes. And if there's only one enemy, you can still blast it with Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead, which will have comparable damage to a weapon attack with Divine Strike, and you can do it from further away.

Blessed Strikes is fine if you have a specific character concept that mixes both weapon attacks with cantrips. But I'd pretty much always rather have Potent Spellcasting than Divine Strike. Clerics with Divine Strike only end up doing roughly four dice worth of damage on a weapon attack (weapon die + ability mod + two Divine Strike dice), which is pretty much the same as a cantrip, albeit Divine Strike scales up a bit faster. Potent Spellcasting adds roughly another die worth of damage to your cantrips, for five dice worth. If clerics could get BB/GFB more easily then Divine Strike would look more appealing, but even those would still add damage from Potent Spellcasting, even if it's not as much as Divine Strike adds.

Then there's the fact that a caster cleric is SAD while a melee cleric is MAD. With that in mind, you would think the melee cleric would actually be stronger to make up for the greater investment required, but no. Divine Strike ultimately just makes your weapon attacks do roughly the same damage as your cantrips.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I've gone through the different domains, and here are some remarks:
(1) Heavy Armour and Divine Strike are paired. The only exception is the Trickster with Divine Strike but no Heavy Armour.
(2) In absence of Heavy Armour, you have some out-of-combat utility, like skills or utility cantrips. The only domain that have those on top of Heavy Armour proficiency is the Nature domain.

Features at level 1 and level 6 for domains of PHB/SwordCoast/Xanathar/Tasha:
Arcana: Arcana skill & 2 cantrips; Potent Spellcaster
Forge: Heavy armour & blessing; Divine Strike
Grave: 1 buffed cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Knowledge: More skills; Potent Spellcaster
Life: Heavy armour & better healing; Divine Strike
Light: 1 cantrip & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Nature: Heavy armour & 1 cantrip & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Order: Heavy armour & 1 skill; Divine Strike
Peace: 1 skill & other bonus; Potent Spellcaster
Tempest: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
Trickster: Stealth bonus; Divine Strike
Twilight: Martial weapon & Heavy armour; Divine Strike
War: Martial weapon & Heavy armour & other bonus; Divine Strike

Did they just decide the spell list for Trickster was too good, so didn't go with the Potent Spellcaster? Our other DM just houseruled it for for the one player we had who had this subclass.

[Tanarii]

Honestly I feel like they all should have gotten HA. A cleric just doesn't feel like a Cleric unless they're got some Str, HA & Shield, and a good solid wackin' mace. And Dex in the dumps. There's a reason it's called Cleric Speed.

[Frogreaver]

Not even close. See also:

Bane
Command
Guiding Bolt
Inflict Wounds
Blindness/Deafness
Hold Person
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Spirit Shroud
Banishment
Guardian of Faith
Contagion
Dawn
Flamestrike
Holy Weapon
Insect Plague
Summon Celestial
Blade Barrier
Create Undead
Harm
Planar Ally
Conjure Celestial
Divine Word
Fire Storm
Symbol
Earthquake
Gate

And those are just the offensive spells. That's not even mentioning all the various buff spells or utility spells available to them too.

You could have at least tried to include only good cleric spells instead of everything and the kitchen sink. There's so many spells listed that are bad or inferior to one of the staple offensive cleric spells. Some of the most egregious examples - Bane, Spirit Shroud, Flamestrike, Blindness/Deafness...

I mean come on...

[P. G. Macer]

I was pretty disappointed that Twilight Cleric didn't get some kind of Unarmored Defense ability. Even Tasha mention their sect to be all about wearing eveningwear. Heavy armor would totally ruin it.

I’m pretty sure Tasha’s comment on evening wear and the Twilight Domain was supposed to be a joke.

[Thunderous Mojo]

A cleric just doesn't feel like a Cleric unless they're got some Str, HA & Shield, and a good solid wackin' mace. And Dex in the dumps. There's a reason it's called Cleric Speed.
Hard Pass. 2e Specialty Priests were popular,( in part), as specialty priests increased character variety. I have nothing against Strength Clerics, but prefer for there to be ecclesiastical diversity.🕊


There's so many spells listed that are bad or inferior to one of the staple offensive cleric spells. Some of the most egregious examples - Bane, Spirit Shroud, Flamestrike, Blindness/Deafness...
I mean come on...
Bane vs Bless is a matter of party composition.
Blindness/Deafness is a spell that does not require the use of Concentration, only has Verbal requirements, and Upcasts by adding an extra creature per spell level.

Vampires can not charm creatures they can not see. Bats have no access to blindsight while deafened. Blindness/Deafness, is an excellent spell to use against Strahd in Curse of Strahd.

The addition of Harness Divine Power in TCoE, means a 6th level cleric has two extra 2nd level spell slots per day. I would gladly exchange a Deafness/Blindness spell for Strahd to expend an use of Counterspell or Legendary Resistance.

The cleric spell list is substantive and varied enough, that a cleric can "remake" themselves everyday by altering their spell selection. Selecting the same old "superior" spells just makes you predictable.

Did they just decide the spell list for Trickster was too good, so didn't go with the Potent Spellcaster? Our other DM just houseruled it for for the one player we had who had this subclass.
Invoke Duplicity can be used to garner Advantage on attack rolls when the Trickery Cleric and Perfect Illusion are both within 5' of their target. Perhaps the D&D Development team thought Divine Strike would be a better fit.

[Devils_Advocate]

Honestly I feel like they all should have gotten HA. A cleric just doesn't feel like a Cleric unless they're got some Str, HA & Shield, and a good solid wackin' mace. And Dex in the dumps. There's a reason it's called Cleric Speed.

Hard Pass. 2e Specialty Priests were popular,( in part), as specialty priests increased character variety. I have nothing against Strength Clerics, but prefer for there to be ecclesiastical diversity.
And note that druids, the first specifically detailed specialty priests, were (and are) armor-restricted.

Even Original Dungeons & Dragons was meant to be used with a healthy dose of "If you don't like any of these options, then pull something new straight out of your ass". It even explicitly mentions the possibility of someone playing a dragon, and says that that's fine so long as the dragon starts off weak and progresses from there like everyone else.

Character classes originally lent themselves very well to pigeonholing characters into overly specific cliches, because in lots of ways they were pretty specific, and there were only a few of them, and making up something new took effort that a lot of people weren't interested in putting in. But those who want characters to be restricted to a relatively small number of deliberately narrow Approved Character Archetypes were pretty much never the target demographic, from what I can tell.


The cleric spell list is substantive and varied enough, that a cleric can "remake" themselves everyday by altering their spell selection. Selecting the same old "superior" spells just makes you predictable.
That depends on how much information your enemies have about your activities and/or how much your DM likes to metagame.

[sophontteks]

You could have at least tried to include only good cleric spells instead of everything and the kitchen sink. There's so many spells listed that are bad or inferior to one of the staple offensive cleric spells. Some of the most egregious examples - Bane, Spirit Shroud, Flamestrike, Blindness/Deafness...

I mean come on...
Yeah I'll second that blindness/deafness is one of the best spells in the game. No concentration multiple round CC that can hit multiple targets when upcast. It's really irreplaceable. Nothing beats it that I know of.

[Evaar]

Yeah I'll second that blindness/deafness is one of the best spells in the game. No concentration multiple round CC that can hit multiple targets when upcast. It's really irreplaceable. Nothing beats it that I know of.

Not to mention the sheer number of spells that don't work when you can't see your target, and that it uses a Constitution save. Apart from how many spellcasters that can shut down, ever fought a beholder?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah they don't handle armor proficiencies well at all when it comes to the cleric class. Subclasses that need it, don't have it. Subclasses that don't need it, get it. Its pretty lazy.

This

They also seem to both overestimate the worth of armor prof but then turn around and give non-armored classes plenty of options to "have armor".

AC should be based off proficiency and class at this point since they already trivialize it

[Theodoxus]

As noted, Medium vs Heavy armor is a side grade. Just because you have proficiency in Heavy doesn't mean you have to use it. If you want to play your Life or Twilight or War cleric with a 16 Dex, Medium Armor Mastery and running around in half-plate, that's perfectly viable.

[Thunderous Mojo]

That depends on how much information your enemies have about your activities and/or how much your DM likes to metagame.
For illustrative purposes, if we just limit ourselves to the WotC 'Big Quest' modules: from the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat, to Ras Nsi and Accererak, to Halaster and his coterie of Archmages, to Zariel, an Archdevil with the resources of Avernus, to Strahd a vampire wizard with all the PHB spells....
.....each one of these organizations/villains has the resources to cast information gathering spells...(or have them cast on their behalf).

Each villain, likely, should, find out more about the PCs.

Strahd has fought, at minimum, two very powerful spell casters....and is over 800 years old....Strahd having a plan to counter Spirit Guardians, and determining the PC's favored tactics and strategies..seems perfectly in character.

In fact, if Strahd, didn't do this...I as a player would be disappointed 😉

[SpawnOfMorbo]

For illustrative purposes, if we just limit ourselves to the WotC 'Big Quest' modules: from the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat, to Ras Nsi and Accererak, to Halaster and his coterie of Archmages, to Zariel, an Archdevil with the resources of Avernus, to Strahd a vampire wizard with all the PHB spells....
.....each one of these organizations/villains has the resources to cast information gathering spells...(or have them cast on their behalf).

Each villain, likely, should, find out more about the PCs.

Strahd has fought, at minimum, two very powerful spell casters....and is over 800 years old....Strahd having a plan to counter Spirit Guardians, and determining the PC's favored tactics and strategies..seems perfectly in character.

In fact, if Strahd, didn't do this...I as a player would be disappointed 😉


If your party keeps doing the same thing over and over, tactically, there's a good chance they will become famous/infamous and probably even get a nick name based off their tactics.

Doesn't even really take spells, just, some commoners who are telling stories about the up and coming heroes who saved their goats from some trolls.

[Greywander]

It's not always necessary to find the counter to the party's tactics, either. Sometimes tactics are just particularly effective. If they can't be countered easily, then they'll start being adopted by others, including the monsters you might be fighting.

Basically, if the party keeps using the same tactic over and over, then you can either...

Counter it. If the tactic is dumb and had a glaring flaw, and it's only because you've never exploited that flaw that the party keeps using this tactic, then start exploiting that flaw.
Adopt it. If the tactic is good and not easily countered, start using it with your own monsters. I mean, if it works then why wouldn't the monsters do it too? If a counter exists, the players will find it for you.

Something to remember is that the point is to keep the game fun, not to "win" by defeating the players. If they're using the same tactics over and over, the game might be getting boring for them, so by countering or adopting you can help make things more interesting for them.

[MrStabby]

It's not always necessary to find the counter to the party's tactics, either. Sometimes tactics are just particularly effective. If they can't be countered easily, then they'll start being adopted by others, including the monsters you might be fighting.

Basically, if the party keeps using the same tactic over and over, then you can either...

Counter it. If the tactic is dumb and had a glaring flaw, and it's only because you've never exploited that flaw that the party keeps using this tactic, then start exploiting that flaw.
Adopt it. If the tactic is good and not easily countered, start using it with your own monsters. I mean, if it works then why wouldn't the monsters do it too? If a counter exists, the players will find it for you.

Something to remember is that the point is to keep the game fun, not to "win" by defeating the players. If they're using the same tactics over and over, the game might be getting boring for them, so by countering or adopting you can help make things more interesting for them.


I think that you don't have to tailor tactics to the party as a DM. Rather you taylor tactics to what is good, and what adventurers in general are likely to do.

You don't take misty step on every NPC you can because the party likes to use force cage and wall of force, you give them to every NPC because every NPC given the chance to learn a low level spell in a world where force cage exists is pretty likely to take misty step. An enemy who secures resistance to a damage type will probably chose fire or radiant - not because the party deals that damage type but because those types are some of the most powerful effects against NPCs. Your NPCs try and cast spells out of sight of or more than 60ft away from the person in robes with the arcane focus, not because they have scryed on this party, but because they have come across counterspell before whilst fighting other adventurers.

I think playing NPCs as smart individuals honestly trying to preserve their life doesn't just start when initiative is rolled. It is reflected in their training choices, spell selections and strategic decsions.

[Frogreaver]

Yeah I'll second that blindness/deafness is one of the best spells in the game. No concentration multiple round CC that can hit multiple targets when upcast. It's really irreplaceable. Nothing beats it that I know of.

I was remembering it only lasting 1 round. You are correct - that makes it a very good spell.

[verbatim]

Death Domain has a melee channel divinity to go along with weapon proficiency and divine strike, so at least in that regard it's consistent (and leans closer to gish or physical than to being a caster subclass). I have a lvl 19 death domain cleric in my campaign and the ability to add a flat +43 damage to melee attacks three times per short rest is crazy good and makes melee actually worthwhile in certain situations.

Where I think wotc really dropped the ball is that the best melee cleric's are not necessarily the best because of Divine Strike. It's usually because of a channel divinity (death) or a different feature, like Arcana Cleric being able to add portent spellcasting to Booming Blade, which counts as a cleric cantrip because of Arcane Initiate.


It's too late now to change but I think that it would have been nice to see War Cleric's get extra attack and also for Divine Strike to lose the "once per turn" limitation.

[RogueJK]

It's too late now to change but I think that it would have been nice to see War Cleric's get extra attack

Agreed. Or at least removing the WISMOD/Long Rest limit from War Priest starting at Level 5 or 6.

[Willie the Duck]

Is it just me, or is Heavy Armor Prof. and/or Divine Strike handed out like candy, even when the Domain is clearly a caster (like Tempest, arguably Life or Nature, definitely Twilight and Death, etc)?
I suspect that WotC understands their dominant player base (i.e. not us). This edition is supposedly the most D&D-like of D&D's, with all the nonsense that implies (plus see that video Max has in his sig about how there's no grand theory to anything, just seeing how test audiences like the thing). Having clerics being iconic interpretations of themselves trumps theories like caster-vs.-frontliner clerics or the like.


It feels to me like they had a specific god in mind when they created each domain, and the proficiencies and abilities are based on their vision of a cleric of that god. However, I'm not interested enough to try and match them up to see if I'm right.
I think Life cleric is supposed to be the iconic AD&D or basic/classic cleric -- plate mail, mace, healing spells, etc. Tempest cleric is a cleric of Thor or Poseidon, and naturally can wield trident or warhammer. Nature cleric, I agree that this one was a bit forced to make them more distinct from druids, although personally I wish they'd allowed for more inter-domain difference and done something truly different (perhaps a complete lack of armor, so like a monk or barbarian, or maybe a permanent barkskin effect. I guess we could says they would be the priests of romantic era art where a guy in plate is wandering in the forest (perhaps alongside the ancients paladin, filling out the Green Knight motif). Forge Cleric is Hephaestus and any of the dwarf clerics who aren't Thor or Thor Expies. This one ought to have hammers (although IRL warhammers and forge hammers have little in common, it still would make thematic sense), and is one of my bigger gripes. Light, Peace and knowledge clerics make sense as being on the less martial end of things (peace could go even less martial, but it fits with how they've done peace/mercy style monks and paladins as well, which is to say not make them too pacifistic), although that would depend massively on which specific diety of which we are talking (Athena always makes these discussions convoluted). Trickery clerics are a great example of where I think their more rigid thinking fell short. They should have given them bard/rogue-like weapon selection. Death with the martial weapons is... well I guess it makes sense so you can have one with a whip or wicked sword. Both Grave and Death have access to sickles, and that makes sense. Both ought to have access to scythe as weapon if you want to add one to the campaign (cue hue and cry from weapons realists). Twilight Domain ... I'm going to be honest, I still have no idea what WotC thinks twilight domain clerics are even supposed to be, represent, or anything along that line.


Honestly I feel like they all should have gotten HA. A cleric just doesn't feel like a Cleric unless they're got some Str, HA & Shield, and a good solid wackin' mace. And Dex in the dumps. There's a reason it's called Cleric Speed.
Certainly in terms of theme (warhammer as well). Anyone who wants to go lighter armor (heck, actual light armor if you really want) certainly can, and heavy armor just isn't that much of a benefit I don't know why they all couldn't have gotten it (well, I do actually-- they wanted more very straightforward perks to throw around between the domains, so that the choice seemed more meaningful).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's not always necessary to find the counter to the party's tactics, either. Sometimes tactics are just particularly effective. If they can't be countered easily, then they'll start being adopted by others, including the monsters you might be fighting.

Basically, if the party keeps using the same tactic over and over, then you can either...

Counter it. If the tactic is dumb and had a glaring flaw, and it's only because you've never exploited that flaw that the party keeps using this tactic, then start exploiting that flaw.
Adopt it. If the tactic is good and not easily countered, start using it with your own monsters. I mean, if it works then why wouldn't the monsters do it too? If a counter exists, the players will find it for you.

Something to remember is that the point is to keep the game fun, not to "win" by defeating the players. If they're using the same tactics over and over, the game might be getting boring for them, so by countering or adopting you can help make things more interesting for them.

I've never seen people get bored, faster, than having the same thing hapoen over and over.

Having the world react to the party's tactics in some way is 100% necessary to keep things fresh.

Might as well not even have combat if you aren't going to react to a solid tactical plan than the party keeps using every time.

[Zalabim]

Twilight clerics are the night watch. They stand at the threshold, holding back the terrors that lurk in the true darkness.


I was pretty disappointed that Twilight Cleric didn't get some kind of Unarmored Defense ability. Even Tasha mention their sect to be all about wearing eveningwear. Heavy armor would totally ruin it.
Self-centered arcanist doesn't understand what clerics do. News never.

Then there's the fact that a caster cleric is SAD while a melee cleric is MAD. With that in mind, you would think the melee cleric would actually be stronger to make up for the greater investment required, but no. Divine Strike ultimately just makes your weapon attacks do roughly the same damage as your cantrips.
Excluding domain spells, there appear to be 79 spells on the cleric's list of 124 that don't care about your wisdom at all. There's a handful more that work better if you have more wisdom, but still work even if it's 14-16 instead of 20. A battling cleric can buff, heal, and conjure/summon allies and only count their wisdom for how many spells they can prepare each day. The advantage for being MAD, if three stats really qualifies as MAD, if optionally being MAD is as good as definitely being MAD, and if being MAD deserves an advantage, is things like higher AC and the ability to benefit from magic weapons.

It's too late now to change but I think that it would have been nice to see War Cleric's get extra attack and also for Divine Strike to lose the "once per turn" limitation.
At this point, you could only really get one of the two. Either extra attack or removing the "once on your turn" clause. It's otherwise too big of a jump to make. I would be happy for Divine Strike clerics to have improved reaction attacks.

[Luccan]

At this point, you could only really get one of the two. Either extra attack or removing the "once on your turn" clause. It's otherwise too big of a jump to make. I would be happy for Divine Strike clerics to have improved reaction attacks.

I think removing the turn clause would result in a lot of dual-wielding clerics.

[verbatim]

I think removing the turn clause would result in a lot of dual-wielding clerics.

Would giving up a shield for an extra 1d8 (2d8 at lvl 14) be all that strong/broken though? As is the two strongest melee damage output clerics (Death Domain and Arcana Domain) don't even have Divine Strike, so it's clearly not functioning as intended.

[RogueJK]

As is the two strongest melee damage output clerics (Death Domain and Arcana Domain) don't even have Divine Strike

Death Clerics do get Divine Strike.

[Luccan]

Would giving up a shield for an extra 1d8 (2d8 at lvl 14) be all that strong/broken though? As is the two strongest melee damage output clerics (Death Domain and Arcana Domain) don't even have Divine Strike, so it's clearly not functioning as intended.

Potentially 2d8 to 4d8, because you're attacking twice. It might not be broken, but it's a change I think you would see. Whether or not you care about the visual of TWF clerics is really more relevant

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Potentially 2d8 to 4d8, because you're attacking twice. It might not be broken, but it's a change I think you would see. Whether or not you care about the visual of TWF clerics is really more relevant

I prefer a Charger Cleric to really any other weapon style for Clerics. Makes sense thematically even if you don't go big weapon.

Bonus Action attack, since you only get one, after dashing. You can pick to do damage or to push.

2d6 (great sword) + Str + 1d8 (level 8 feature) + 5 damage (charger) = 7 + str + 4.5 + 5 = 16.5 + Str mod (3 to 5 typically, so, 19.5 to 21.5) @ level 8 is nice enough for a secondary melee weapon user. Gives some utility to boot.

Charger is pretty much only useful on the Cleric.

With the new feats, Charger Clerics can get even better.

[Tanarii]

I think removing the turn clause would result in a lot of dual-wielding clerics.
That'd make it a pretty cool change for Trickery Clerics only then

[Theodoxus]

At this point, you could only really get one of the two. Either extra attack or removing the "once on your turn" clause. It's otherwise too big of a jump to make. I would be happy for Divine Strike clerics to have improved reaction attacks.

I'd be for removing the War God's Blessing from the War Domain and giving them Extra Attack, heck, let them burn a CD to get the Bladesinger version.

6th level ability for War Domain
Extra Attack
Beginning at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

War God's Blessing
When you use Extra Attack, you can use your Channel Divinity to cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.


[I'd also be quite happy with making this an Alternate Ability, so folks who like the original WGB can keep it - but I've only seen it used a couple of times, so it isn't super popular at my tables.]