Help with DiA: Arkhan gaining power (spoilers)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So my players (one of which is a Death Cleric devoted to Tiamat) have basically played along with Tiamat's wishes for the whole adventure. On both occasions when they have run across Tiamat's treasure Ultis and his Cultists have showed up and the players have handed over her 'share'. So I decided to have Ultis show up another time and shake them down. Now they have traded Arkhan the Orb of Dragonkind and the Shield of the Hidden Lord, as the player who had it didn't want something with a Pit Fiend in it. I slow played that bit of info until they met Arkhan.

At this point I kind of feel like I have to have Arkhan (and maybe Tiamat) play a bigger role since the actions of the players should make a difference. They have clearly boosted this faction's power. What to do for the rest of the adventure? Thoughts?

[Unoriginal]

So my players (one of which is a Death Cleric devoted to Tiamat) have basically played along with Tiamat's wishes for the whole adventure. On both occasions when they have run across Tiamat's treasure Ultis and his Cultists have showed up and the players have handed over her 'share'. So I decided to have Ultis show up another time and shake them down. Now they have traded Arkhan the Orb of Dragonkind and the Shield of the Hidden Lord, as the player who had it didn't want something with a Pit Fiend in it. I slow played that bit of info until they met Arkhan.

At this point I kind of feel like I have to have Arkhan (and maybe Tiamat) play a bigger role since the actions of the players should make a difference. They have clearly boosted this faction's power. What to do for the rest of the adventure? Thoughts?

As the "endings" section of the adventure reveal, Tiamat herself is more than happy to help the PCs for free if asked. As in, she goes break the chains of Elturel in person.

Tiamat wants to take over Avernus and have Arkhan rule it as her representative, so with the added power/allies the faction got thank to the PCs I would say they are in a much better position to accomplish it (Tiamat can free the Pit Fiend from the shield and let him recover enough power to get his demigod status back).

I would say Tiamat would contact the PCs, express how pleased she is, and offer to give them a role in the takeover. If they want to try redeeming Zariel rather than killing her Tiamat has no reason to not let them try, so long that they agree to not make deals with the fallen angel if it fails.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As the "endings" section of the adventure reveal, Tiamat herself is more than happy to help the PCs for free if asked. As in, she goes break the chains of Elturel in person.

Tiamat wants to take over Avernus and have Arkhan rule it as her representative, so with the added power/allies the faction got thank to the PCs I would say they are in a much better position to accomplish it (Tiamat can free the Pit Fiend from the shield and let him recover enough power to get his demigod status back).

I would say Tiamat would contact the PCs, express how pleased she is, and offer to give them a role in the takeover. If they want to try redeeming Zariel rather than killing her Tiamat has no reason to not let them try, so long that they agree to not make deals with the fallen angel if it fails.

Yeah, some of the things the mod is a little fuzzy on are: Where exactly is Tiamat? What is the nature of her prison? Can she actually rule Avernus (I mean she's a fiend, but not a devil, and neither is Arkhan) so would Asmodeus be OK with that? In absence of Zariel I'd think Asmodeus would prefer Bel.
For the moment I'm thinking her 'prison' exists as long as Zariel rules, so Arkhan could be free to help the characters either redeem her or off her. That would release Tiamat who could then release Elturel. At that point I'm not sure whether Tiamat is at odds with Bel for control over Avernus or she just wants out... which could mean she rides Elturel back to the prime material plane. Besides my one character who is more or less a cultist of Tiamat the rest would have a bit of a problem at that stage, being level 13ish and having just released her.

[jaappleton]

I’m going off the cuff here.

Legitimately I don’t pay *too* much attention to D&D lore, because everyone’s game is their own world with their own mythos.

So forgive me if this doesn’t jive with anyone else’s vision, it’s just an idea.

IMO, Tiamat has a weird relationship with the plane of Avernus. She needs to regain more of her power. Being in Avernus let’s her do that. Let’s Tiamat plot, scheme, allows Arkhan to amass more soldiers for her army, etc. Also, being in Hell provides a bit of a buffer between her and her other enemies.

Long term? I’d wager she doesn’t actually want to be in the servitude of Asmodeus as a ruler of the Nine Hells. She has grander schemes in play. But for now, she’s happy to be there, slowly regaining all her power.

Tiamat and Arkhan likely want Zariel redeemed and gone, or outright killed. Bel doesn’t have enough to take out Tiamat, and I think Bel knows it. So it’s in Tiamat’s interest to remove Zariel from Avernus, and have Bel let Tiamat be for awhile.

Until Tiamat kills Bel, or Tiamat escapes Avernus with all her power and army.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, some of the things the mod is a little fuzzy on are: Where exactly is Tiamat? What is the nature of her prison? Can she actually rule Avernus (I mean she's a fiend, but not a devil, and neither is Arkhan) so would Asmodeus be OK with that? In absence of Zariel I'd think Asmodeus would prefer Bel.
For the moment I'm thinking her 'prison' exists as long as Zariel rules, so Arkhan could be free to help the characters either redeem her or off her. That would release Tiamat who could then release Elturel. At that point I'm not sure whether Tiamat is at odds with Bel for control over Avernus or she just wants out... which could mean she rides Elturel back to the prime material plane. Besides my one character who is more or less a cultist of Tiamat the rest would have a bit of a problem at that stage, being level 13ish and having just released her.

Tiamat's prison is Avernus as a whole, and the nature of her prison is basically "can't get out of Avernus unless summoned, because of Asmodeus's power" (which is what Arkhan's trying to break by using Vecna's power). Where she is during the module's events is her lair and her hoard, near Arkhan's camp, unless she's given a reason to act.

Tiamat and Arkhan can actually rule over Avernus. Tiamat herself was the ruler before Bel was appointed, technically speaking. Asmodeus would prefer Bel, no doubt, but so long as Tiamat still keeps the Demons at bay he has no problem letting another god do his job.

Also, while Asmodeus do want to keep control of Avernus, the adventure is pretty clear that he *could* lose it if the Demon Princes actually managed to kill his stooges and overrun the place. It'd be an unprecedented event, but it did nearly happen at least once before (when the Demons were close to reaching the second layer), and Hell's policy for such an event is "get all the other Archdukes on the case ASAP until the Demons are beaten back".


Tiamat would be unable to use Elturel's coming back to the Material Plane to free herself, and in the module it's clear she doesn't even try.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I’m going off the cuff here.

Legitimately I don’t pay *too* much attention to D&D lore, because everyone’s game is their own world with their own mythos.

So forgive me if this doesn’t jive with anyone else’s vision, it’s just an idea.

IMO, Tiamat has a weird relationship with the plane of Avernus. She needs to regain more of her power. Being in Avernus let’s her do that. Let’s Tiamat plot, scheme, allows Arkhan to amass more soldiers for her army, etc. Also, being in Hell provides a bit of a buffer between her and her other enemies.

Long term? I’d wager she doesn’t actually want to be in the servitude of Asmodeus as a ruler of the Nine Hells. She has grander schemes in play. But for now, she’s happy to be there, slowly regaining all her power.

Tiamat and Arkhan likely want Zariel redeemed and gone, or outright killed. Bel doesn’t have enough to take out Tiamat, and I think Bel knows it. So it’s in Tiamat’s interest to remove Zariel from Avernus, and have Bel let Tiamat be for awhile.

Until Tiamat kills Bel, or Tiamat escapes Avernus with all her power and army.

OK, I don't mind this, though it sounds better if I was continuing the game after level 13 and my 'cultist' player could continue to work to get Tiamat back to the Prime Material. In the short to medium it works though. Bel is probably happy enough for the characters to work with Arkhan to rid Zariel. I would think his best case is that Zariel goes, but Arkhan and his faction are decimated in the process. Perhaps that means for the Endgame that Bel has some resources around to try to finish off whoever wins the battle.

[Unoriginal]

OK, I don't mind this, though it sounds better if I was continuing the game after level 13 and my 'cultist' player could continue to work to get Tiamat back to the Prime Material. In the short to medium it works though. Bel is probably happy enough for the characters to work with Arkhan to rid Zariel. I would think his best case is that Zariel goes, but Arkhan and his faction are decimated in the process. Perhaps that means for the Endgame that Bel has some resources around to try to finish off whoever wins the battle.

This would get Bel deadified by a very, very angry goddess.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This would get Bel deadified by a very, very angry goddess.

You don't think there is a way of doing this subtly; perhaps a group of Demons get routed that way 'by chance'? Bel is fairly intelligent after all.

[Unoriginal]

You don't think there is a way of doing this subtly; perhaps a group of Demons get routed that way 'by chance'? Bel is fairly intelligent after all.

Bel is fairly intelligent, but Tiamat surpasses him in nearly all aspects. Granted the one area where he is better than her is that he is proficient in more skills, including Deception, so he could possibly pull a fast one on her, but as a true deity she has the kind of awareness of what's going on that is hard to obstruct.

So it's *possible*, but hugely unlikely, and would likely require Tiamat to be made unaware of what is happening to her herald, champion and current field marshal.

But even if he had nothing to do with it (factually or seemingly) she can't allow Bel to loot Arkhan's body (because Bel + the divine Artifact Arkhan has + the rest of his magic items = troubles) or her armies to stop conquering the place, so she'll have to do something about the most direct threat to her rulership over Avernus.