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View Full Version : Does a level 20 mystic theuruge suck.



Emperor Demonking
2007-11-10, 05:41 AM
I know I spelt the name wrong, but the question still stands.

You probably won't be as good as single class wizard/sorcerer or a cleric but you'd still be better than most.

Dhavaer
2007-11-10, 05:44 AM
Not so much; the suck is mostly due to it being very weak to start with. At 20th you have 9th level arcane and 7th level divine, though (assuming wizard/cleric), so you'll always have something to contribute.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-10, 05:46 AM
What level does it stop sucking.

Dhavaer
2007-11-10, 05:50 AM
Hard to say. No earlier than level 16, probably.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-10, 06:31 AM
The problem is that every level leading up to 18th(9th wizard/6th divine) is spent a full spell level behind your pure wizard/cleric buddies.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-10, 06:56 AM
The problem with Mystic Theurge is they suck but really don't gain anything. Wizards and Clerics have exclusive spells but do fine without each others. A Mystic Theurge sacrifices quality for quantity and quantity is what wins every time. A full non-multiclassed caster can actually cast more spells than a Theurge since he has more options for quicken.

Having lots of weak spells just makes the battle last longer, which considering you have less healing and HP than a cleric isn't a good idea.

Tengu
2007-11-10, 08:26 AM
Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.

PS. How can you get level 9 arcane spells with Mystic Theurge at level 18?

Capoeira
2007-11-10, 08:51 AM
Um, Ive played mystic theurges that were extremely, powerfully imbalanced.

Its really only the first 6 levels that make them suck for me...

Once you get a wizard3/cleric4 (with the RIGHT domains for this type of build) and add a level of mystic in, youve got a wizard 4/cleric5 functionally... there are feats you need to counter the loss of a few casterlevels though...

...but you can find enough magic feats these days to make a level 4 ranger look like merlin...

Anyway, If you go mt9/cleric8/wiz3 you sacrafice one effective level of mid-arcane caster to get a 3rd attack each round.... which if built correctly makes you an enlarged, holy, righteous, mighty, adamantine, flaming, concealed, true-striking juggernaught of multiple combat effects that were never meant to be combined by mortals.

Course its easier if you go scor/spiritshaman of something to reduce the stat spread

kemmotar
2007-11-10, 09:01 AM
Well...The things with mystic theurge is that except for spell levels you miss out on caster levels which make your dispell magic, as well as other spells too, weaker. Thus the 20th level pure wizard just timestops, summon monster XI 4 times and the disinitigrate you once in a while just to see if you'll fail your save and save him the trouble...Whatever you do, if it has higher spell levels it will probably win...no need for optimization even...pure wizard 20 is far better than mystic theurge. Sure you have more spell than any single class and you can outlast any other spellcasting class but they don't need to outlast you...just use a 9th level spell you don't have save or suck preferably, spell focus and gr. spell focus and then the battle is pretty much over...Even faster if he has the fatespinner PrC...

Jack_Simth
2007-11-10, 09:21 AM
Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.

PS. How can you get level 9 arcane spells with Mystic Theurge at level 18?
By cheating with quick caster advancement PrC's, generally. Find something that gets you 2nd level Divine spells with just one level, and you're there.

Most such combos I've seen, though, require at least two off-levels, granting your high-end Arcane spells at 19th (e.g., the Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10 is an 18th level character that casts as a Wiz-16 and an Ur-Priest 12 - which is 8th level Arcane, 9th level Divine, and depending on reading, an Ur-Priest caster level of either 20 or 14). You can get 9th level Divine spells a lot earlier than that, though.

Kaelik
2007-11-10, 09:39 AM
By cheating with quick caster advancement PrC's, generally. Find something that gets you 2nd level Divine spells with just one level, and you're there.

Most such combos I've seen, though, require at least two off-levels, granting your high-end Arcane spells at 19th (e.g., the Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10 is an 18th level character that casts as a Wiz-16 and an Ur-Priest 12 - which is 8th level Arcane, 9th level Divine, and depending on reading, an Ur-Priest caster level of either 20 or 14). You can get 9th level Divine spells a lot earlier than that, though.

I'm curious, does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest? At waht point in Wizard 5/Mindbender 1, did you get a base save of +3 Fort?

Jack_Simth
2007-11-10, 09:42 AM
I'm curious, does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest? At waht point in Wizard 5/Mindbender 1, did you get a base save of +3 Fort?Mindbender is in Complete Arcane; it gives a good Fort save. Take a look at the class sometime. Wizard-5 gives a base Fort of +1, Mindbender gives a base Fort of +2. It technically works, even if it is a bit odd.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-10, 10:07 AM
You probably won't be as good as single class wizard/sorcerer or a cleric but you'd still be better than most.

Precisely.

I believe Mystic Theurge is balanced. It is weaker than a straight Wizard or Cleric, yes, but those are considered top tier classes for a reason, and can easily be called overpowered compared to, say, barbarians or bards.

MTs are extremely versatile (plus you still get to combine them with domain powers as well as specialist wizards) and won't run out of spells any time this century. That means they're nice in small parties, solo missions, stories with more than the "standard" four encounters per day, and anything where time is of the essence and you can't rest.

Goumindong
2007-11-10, 10:13 AM
Or just take great fortitude.

Anyway, in general Mystic Theruges do not suck. They get a bad rap because they arent as good as Straight Clerics or Straight Wizards or Straight Sorcerers.

They are still a lot better than Fighters and Bards and any other non-full caster progressing class though

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-10, 10:20 AM
Or just take great fortitude.

Nope, doesn't work. You need a base Fort save of +3. Great Fortitude just gives you an unnamed bonus to Fort saves.

EntilZha
2007-11-10, 10:27 AM
If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all.

RoboticSheeple
2007-11-10, 10:28 AM
A 20th lvl MT is less powerful than a cleric with the leadership feat or a wizard with the leadership feat (core build, I haven't investigated all the PrC options). So yeah, I'd say it sucks.

Kaelik
2007-11-10, 10:38 AM
A 20th lvl MT is less powerful than a cleric with the leadership feat or a wizard with the leadership feat (core build, I haven't investigated all the PrC options). So yeah, I'd say it sucks.

Everything is less powerful then anything with Leadership (yes that's exaggeration.)

Leadership is the most broken thing in D&D besides Pun-Pun. Leadership is more broken then Planar Shepard or Batman. Because Leadership gives you a free lvl 18 Batman to go with whatever you have, and then lets you get tons of Planar Shepards, one for each Plane, all around level 15.

Leadership is not a comparison for anything.


Mindbender is in Complete Arcane; it gives a good Fort save. Take a look at the class sometime. Wizard-5 gives a base Fort of +1, Mindbender gives a base Fort of +2. It technically works, even if it is a bit odd.

I know what and where Mindbender is. I just didn't know that it had a good Fort progression, because that's dumb (but useful).

Goumindong
2007-11-10, 10:43 AM
Leadership exists for 1-2 person games i think becaues yea, its pretty freaking broken.

TheSteelRat
2007-11-10, 10:50 AM
[quote] Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.[/unquote]

There's also Arcane Hierophant, from Races of the Wild, which is a Druid (or Ranger) / Arcane combination. Requires you to be lvl 7 though before entry. Gives medium BAB, druid armor use with spellcasting, and changes your animal companion and familiar into the familiar companion of death. Dire Tiger with intelligence and access to all of the "familiar" buff spells? Yes, please. Oh, and it stacks with Wild Shape. This is more of an uber caster-melee build, combined with such feats as Natural Spell, Companion Spellbond (increases range of shared spell effects), Natural Bond, Practiced Spellcaster.

You'll also be behind though on spellcasting by approximately 3 levels with each build type. With AH, you're behind an extra level in one of your classes, since you need to fulfill the BAB requirement. For Wizard / Cleric, that's entry at level 7, and -3 to each spell level, so you'll reach parity at level 20, when you get 9th level spells in one of your classes. Though some DM's might allow you to extend the class beyond 10 levels, you can even get both at 9th level classes. While that might be 'epic' rules, and not RAW, it's something to consider for the build and check with your DM.

You're basically losing the flashy new spells that are uber-powerful, such as Teleport, Wish, Shapechange, Gate, which everyone else has, for a greater variety of spells you have access to, which can be very, very nice in some situations, but not so great in others. You have more spells per day, but each one of those has a lower save DC, lower duration / effect (unless you take Practiced Spellcaster), and generally less powerful than a straight wizard or cleric. In good news though, you'll have slightly higher HP, ability to inflict or heal damage by giving up spell slots, and be a buff-monster. With Cleric or Druid on one side, you've got all your utility spells, so your Wizard side can focus more on Batman-style (or whatever-style) spells, without having to worry about preparing buff spells for other party members.

Also, you can make Golems. That's right, MT's are typically the only single character that can make a Golem. "Animate Object" is a Cleric / Bard Spell only, and the rest of the list is typically Wizard spells. Just something to throw out there.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-10, 10:58 AM
If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all. That helps a lot. Beyond not sucking, you get good bang for the buck as a Mystic Theurge for anything that will help your spellcasting ability and doesn't distinguish between arcane and divine casting:
An Orange Ioun stone boosts caster level for all your casting classes.
A Bead of Karma requires divine casting to use, but bumps up your caster level +4 for all spells for 10 minutes.
Clerical domains that grant +1 or +2 caster levels for particular types of spells, like abjuration (from the Purification domain), work on your arcane spells of that type, too.
Metamagic feats can be applied to all your spells.
The Inquisition domain grants +4 to your dispel checks. It doesn't distinguish between divine and arcane, or among Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Reaving Dispel. This is a great boost, as it powers through the supposed "dispel-proof" caster levels for things like Permanency. Poof! :tongue:
Items and spells that let you recover spent spells, like Pearls of Power and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, work with all your spells.

wowy319
2007-11-10, 11:22 AM
Geomancer is a far better class. It can actually work with clerics in 3.5, so go with that.


As for it sucking... No. An ECL 20 mystic theruge is not a great spellcaster in the sense of high-level spells, but in versatility, it's decent.

My opinion of the PrC: It doesn't suck, but it's not good. Geomancer is a far better alternative, simply due to the fact that it gives you the benefit of armored casting and various other combat-boosting abilities.

Tengu
2007-11-10, 11:58 AM
If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all.

Practiced Spellcaster does not give you more spells, or access to higher levels of them, though.

Maerok
2007-11-10, 11:59 AM
It's overwhelmingly sad that anything that can cast practically any arcane or divine spell is being described as sucking. So what if it doesn't invoke apocalyptic death as well as the next spellcaster? The point is that it can invoke apocalyptic death at all.

EntilZha
2007-11-10, 12:16 PM
Practiced Spellcaster does not give you more spells, or access to higher levels of them, though.

True, but a MT needs all the help he or she can get.

Fishy
2007-11-10, 12:47 PM
Why are we all saying Cleric and not Archivist? You weren't using the armor, the int synergy is very nice, and if you want to cast all arcane and most divine spells, why not be completely greedy?

Dausuul
2007-11-10, 12:55 PM
Suck is relative.

Compared to a full caster, MTs suck until very late in the game.

Compared to non-casters, however, it's a good, balanced class for most of its progression.

JaxGaret
2007-11-10, 12:59 PM
Why are we all saying Cleric and not Archivist? You weren't using the armor, the int synergy is very nice, and if you want to cast all arcane and most divine spells, why not be completely greedy?

Archivist/Wizard is the optimal MT build.

That or Druid/Wizard with Arcane Hierophant and a few levels of MT.


Suck is relative.

Compared to a full caster, MTs suck until very late in the game.

Compared to non-casters, however, it's a good, balanced class for most of its progression.

Quoted for great truth.

MisterSaturnine
2007-11-10, 01:09 PM
Wait, quick question about Practiced Spellcaster (sorry to change the subject, but now I'm vaguely interested in a Mystic Theurge :smalltongue:)--

What exactly does it do? I know it raises caster level 4 levels (but no more than HD), so it helps with multiclass. Does it simply raise the level of effect (for things like Fireball) so it does, say, 7d6 instead of 3d6? Or does it basically add +4 to existing spellcasting class, meaning you can cast higher level spells (meaning that, if you go into Mystic Theurge as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 and take Practiced Spellcaster, you took 2nd level spells at Wizard 3 and then at your first level of Mystic Theurge, now at an effective level of 7 for Wizard, take some 4th level spells and skip 3rd level entirely)?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-10, 01:11 PM
The first one. You don't get new spells or any of the other bonuses, your spells are just more powerful.

Chronos
2007-11-10, 01:23 PM
Why are we all saying Cleric and not Archivist?Because if you're allowing Archivists, you can probably get more wizard spellcasting as a straight Archivist than as a Mystic Theurge. Everything's a divine spell on some list or another.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-10, 01:29 PM
I was reading the Practiced Spellcaster feat. I don't think it allows you to learn higher level spells. It does say


This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells
known. It increases your caster level only, which would help
you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and
other effects of your spells.

So, your cleric 1/wizard 3 can't learn 3rd level cleric spells. He just cast the spells he have as a 3rd level cleric (for example, cure light wounds will heal 1d8+3 HP, and he'll roll 1d20+3 to overcome SR).

And I don't think Mystic Theurge sucks. People say that they suck because they are not as good as pure cleric or wizard, and they all they have is twice the amount of spells. What most people ignore is the access to spells from 2 lists, giving the Mystic Theurge access to almost any spell in the game.
Yes, there is this huge leap between 8th and 9th level spells, but still.
Do this:
1)Go with wizard till level 3. I'm sure most 2nd level spells will be good enough to last 2 or 3 levels of adventuring.
2)Get 1 cleric level for some protection and healing spells. If you get that feat, you can cast divine favor with a +2 to attacks/damages already.
3)If you think you are falling too behind in your arcane spell caster, get another a wizard level if necessary. If there is another wizard in the party, why did you even bother being a wizard in the first place?
4)Move on to cleric 2. You should be at character level 6 now. You don't have the powerful 3rd level wizard spells yet, but that may not be so bad. You still cast your 2nd level spells as a 6th level wizard. Alternatively, you can get a wizard level instead, to cast your precious 3rd level spells. You are on par with the sorcerer at this point.
5) Get the 3rd cleric level (or 2nd if you decided to get that wizard level first). You are casting stuff at level 7 by now.
6) If you don't have 3 levels of cleric, do it now. Caster level 8 for 3rd level wizard spell and 2nd level cleric spells.
7) Go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. You are not losing anything now. You'll be casting spells as a 15th level wizard, with a caster level of 18, and casting spells as a 13th level cleric with a caster level of 18
8) After that, complete the last 2 wizard levels.

Pros: You can get your 9th level wizard spells, and get up to 6th level cleric spells.
Cons: You'll get delayed 2 of your wizard levels.

Don't think of MT as a wizard/cleric blend, but more like a "wizard to access to cleric spells". Everyone says that a wizard that can learn any spell from the cleric list would be powerful. The MT is a wizard that can use all that magic, except the top 3 levels (7th, 8th, 9th).

So, lose 2 wizard levels for the ability to go semi-codzila? Yes, please. You can call him BatZilla. It's not as powerful going wizard-druid because you don't get the good stuff a druid gets besides spells, and sorcerer-cleric because you may miss the 9th level sorcerer spells. But wizard/cleric is a good bet.
Or even better, wizard/archivist. Keep the Int synergy, and manage your stuff as normal.

Tell you what, my next character will be a wizard/archivist/MT.
Or, if I plan in going epic, and don't want to bother with carrying books, I'll go sorcerer/blessed soul/MT. The three full casters that most people thing are underpowered.

Aquillion
2007-11-10, 02:07 PM
Another curious note: Not that anyone cares about balance at that point, but at epic levels someone with 10 MT levels who got both their progressions to level 9 casting in one way or another is actually even more powerful than a regular epic spellcaster. This is because of a quirk in the way that uses of epic magic are calculated:


Prerequisite
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

Benefit
You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.

Special
If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.This means that an Epic Spellcaster keeps all of Knowledge (arcana), knowledge (religion), and knowledge (nature) maxed will have three times the epic spells per day that a normal wizard was, and a 50% more than the smart cleric/druid who maxed both religion and nature. (Yes, clerics and druids can get double epic spells/day very easily... but then again, Spellcraft is an int skill.) That and spellcraft doesn't leave you with many skill points to spare, but you can do it with high int, which you'll need for half of your spellcasting anyway... and it's not like you have much else to spend your skill points on.

And that's in addition to the fact that you can 'finish off' your individual progressions, getting more level 9 slots while normal casters wouldn't be able to without wasting feats.

EDIT: Of course, to max Knowledge (nature), you'll have to start as a human cleric with the Animal or Plant domains, and take Able Learner...

Kaelik
2007-11-10, 02:39 PM
Geomancer is a far better class. It can actually work with clerics in 3.5, so go with that.

Why does everyone keep talking about Geomancer being better then MT? I understand that the 3.0 one gave dual progression, but it was updated already in 3.5. So you can't use the 3.0 one and you can't get dual progression with it.

John Campbell
2007-11-10, 07:15 PM
Also, you can make Golems. That's right, MT's are typically the only single character that can make a Golem. "Animate Object" is a Cleric / Bard Spell only, and the rest of the list is typically Wizard spells. Just something to throw out there.

Clay golems are the only ones (of the basic types, anyway) that require animate objects, and their other requirements - commune and resurrection - are cleric spells. The other golem types require spells that aren't on the cleric list, but they don't require anything that isn't on the wizard list.

So, basically, clerics make clay golems; wizards make flesh, iron, and stone golems.

Mystic theurges are pretty much the only ones who can make all four types without assistance, but there's no type that only mystic theurges can make unassisted.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-10, 11:52 PM
Regarding the OT No.

A level 20 MT "should" normally have access to level 9 spells on at least one side of the build. What kind of game would consider that poor much less even worse?

Level 9 spells on both sides is easily accomplished using the Ur-Priest PRC with the potential for more level 9 spells than a straight Wiz - 20 with 4 or Cleric - 20 with 5 before ability modifiers are factored in since the MT could acquire a level 9 bonus spell in both arcane and divine spellcasting sides (The PC would need to gain a bonus spell on both sides and take an Arcane Disciple on the arcane side, doable with some in game opportunity cost).

A MT build wizard can specialize easier than a straight wizard since he can minimize any perceived loss in prohibited school spellcasting with his divine spellcasting (if there is no comparable divine spell there is always Any Spell, Any Spell Greater and Miracle to help address it).

A Spec Wiz - 10, Ur Priest -2, MT -8 should have comparable level 9 spells with 3 on the arcane side and 1 on the Ur Priest (since he can gain a bonus on both sides with magic items bumping it up to 6 total) side and quite a lot more spellcasting utility and spellcasting options than a straight spellcaster plus divine meta cheese with Rebuke Undead.

IMO the Arcane Disciple feat as currently written would be an option on the arcane side spellcasting simply for choosing a single deity with a desired domain or domains the PC likes for that extra bonus spell at each level.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-11, 01:56 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=950701

Either Mad Faith or Alternative Source Spell will let you qualify with a minimal loss of caster levels.

True Necromancer is a 10/12 dual progression. As in, you take 12 levels, but only gain +10 to each side.:smallfrown:

Edit: Oh yeah, Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard/Sorceror should let you qualify for those classes Warlocks can qualify for(Eg. Acolyte of the Skin, Blood Magus, Green Star Adept) where it only requires an arcane caster level.

Edit 2: This is more useful for those races with RHD and low LA(none with RHD and +0 LA. Racists!:smallmad:), who would otherwise be shafted by RHD+LA levels of being unable to enter said prestige classes.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 02:04 AM
Mystic Theurge is behind the curve for a long time, but by 20th level, that doesn't matter anymore. You have 9th level spells (arcane or divine), and 7th or 8th level spells for the other. Practiced Spellcaster keeps your caster level up. At 20th level Mystic Theurge rocks. It is just a long painful road compared to other casters.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-11, 10:55 AM
I know what and where Mindbender is. I just didn't know that it had a good Fort progression, because that's dumb (but useful).
I'm confused:
You implying that other people aren't actually reading the class they're talking about ("does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest?"),
You know where to find the class that's used to cover those pre-requisites (and is explicitly mentioned as part of the build),
You don't actually look up the class used,
... and you seem offended after someone with no way of knowing how much you know about the mindbender class explains and mentions where to look?
I could just be confused due to the lack of voice tone, but did I say something to offend?

Mindbender is only a 5/10 caster progression class. Normally, it wouldn't be used at all by optimizers, except for the fact that the requirements are almost trivial (4 ranks in 4 skills, caster level 5, and a Charm Person method), and it gets caster advancement at the first level. Giving a good Fort save isn't bad, as it's a really costly PrC.... if you go more than a few levels. About the only thing really stupid about the class is that the spell progression starts at 1st, rather than 2nd like most such, making it an ideal 1-level dip for most primary casters. Fix that aspect (either by house-ruling it to progressing spellcasting at even levels, forbidding "dips" into PrC's, or similar) and it's fine.

waynethegame
2007-11-11, 01:18 PM
It only sucks if you're one of those narrow-minded people who think everything in D&D has to be relative to full casters and broken/abusive uses of spells that no sane DM would allow in the first place.

This "Batman" wizard talk is nonsense because sane DMs wouldn't let a character pull off half of the tricks that make it so powerful. Not to mention that only a selfish jerk of a player would actually want to play a character that makes everyone else useless.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-11, 01:22 PM
It only sucks if you're one of those narrow-minded people who think everything in D&D has to be relative to full casters and broken/abusive uses of spells that no sane DM would allow in the first place.

This "Batman" wizard talk is nonsense because sane DMs wouldn't let a character pull off half of the tricks that make it so powerful. Not to mention that only a selfish jerk of a player would actually want to play a character that makes everyone else useless.
Suck is a strong term, but the point is comparing relative power levels of something.

Second, Mystic Theurge suffers from the Gestalt problem.

Yes, you have huge amounts of spellcasting, but you can still only cast once a turn. (Barring DMM cheese) A level 20 wizard can still cast all high level spells for a long time before running out, and having the cleric spells as backup is less of a bonus than it first appears.

Temp
2007-11-11, 01:29 PM
This "Batman" wizard talk is nonsense because sane DMs wouldn't let a character pull off half of the tricks that make it so powerful. Your DMs restrict Wizards to Fireball spells?

I'm sorry.


Not to mention that only a selfish jerk of a player would actually want to play a character that makes everyone else useless.Yes. Only "selfish jerks" use their characters' abilities.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-11, 01:34 PM
Yes. Only "selfish jerks" use their characters' abilities.

Precisely! Altruistic PCs use the other characters' abilities... er.... wait a minute.

Spellthief, anyone?

:smalltongue:

waynethegame
2007-11-11, 02:31 PM
Yes. Only "selfish jerks" use their characters' abilities.

Only selfish jerks use their characters abilities in a way that basically renders everybody else useless/unnecessary. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought the "batman-wizard" didn't really need anyone else and could fulfill the roles of an entire party on his own, and that was the point of playing one; to make everybody else "supporting cast" and yourself the star. That, to me, is the sign of a selfish player - someone who wants to upstage everybody else at the table as though they were rivals and not friends.

If I am, in fact, mistaken, then I'll renege my earlier comment.

Temp
2007-11-11, 03:14 PM
Only selfish jerks use their characters abilities in a way that basically renders everybody else useless/unnecessary. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought the "batman-wizard" didn't really need anyone else and could fulfill the roles of an entire party on his own, and that was the point of playing one; to make everybody else "supporting cast" and yourself the star. That, to me, is the sign of a selfish player - someone who wants to upstage everybody else at the table as though they were rivals and not friends.
Well, just look at the 7th-9th level Wizard spell list. Half of it will flat-out kill/remove an enemy (or a group of enemies) without actually damaging them. The Spell method of killing/neutralizing enemies is faster than melee combat, so the damage that other characters do manage to produce will usually be for nothing. A high level Batman Wizard really doesn't need anyone else, but that's just the Wizard class rather than a specific build. It has nothing to do with being somebody's rival or being a jerk, it's just playing a spellcaster.

Kaelik
2007-11-11, 03:34 PM
I'm confused:
You implying that other people aren't actually reading the class they're talking about ("does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest?"),
You know where to find the class that's used to cover those pre-requisites (and is explicitly mentioned as part of the build),
You don't actually look up the class used,
... and you seem offended after someone with no way of knowing how much you know about the mindbender class explains and mentions where to look?
I could just be confused due to the lack of voice tone, but did I say something to offend?

I was not offended, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I was just letting you know that I did in fact know about the Mindbender class.


Mindbender is only a 5/10 caster progression class. Normally, it wouldn't be used at all by optimizers, except for the fact that the requirements are almost trivial (4 ranks in 4 skills, caster level 5, and a Charm Person method), and it gets caster advancement at the first level. Giving a good Fort save isn't bad, as it's a really costly PrC.... if you go more than a few levels. About the only thing really stupid about the class is that the spell progression starts at 1st, rather than 2nd like most such, making it an ideal 1-level dip for most primary casters. Fix that aspect (either by house-ruling it to progressing spellcasting at even levels, forbidding "dips" into PrC's, or similar) and it's fine.

Once again, I know all this. Though I would never outlaw dips, I would encourage it.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-11, 04:09 PM
Well, just look at the 7th-9th level Wizard spell list. Half of it will flat-out kill/remove an enemy (or a group of enemies) without actually damaging them. The Spell method of killing/neutralizing enemies is faster than melee combat, so the damage that other characters do manage to produce will usually be for nothing. A high level Batman Wizard really doesn't need anyone else, but that's just the Wizard class rather than a specific build. It has nothing to do with being somebody's rival or being a jerk, it's just playing a spellcaster.
Well, sorta. The Batman, even at 20th, has enough spells required of him that he has issues making it past about four CR-appropriet encounters in a day, without burning wealth. He can do it, if he's going to "bed" exhausted every day, and he doesn't need to worry about his Mansion being located and dispelled (interrupting his rest) - it takes a bit of work and somewhat specific PrC's to make it happen, though.

Even the batman does better with allies, though. Polymorphing the Rogue-20 into a 12-headed Hydra while the Fighter is flanking is death to anything subject to Sneak Attack (no save, just die - if a third of them hit - and all of these are at the Rogue's full BAB plus the Hydra's strength, so +21 before other types of buff spells - that's 2d8+6+10d6 - times four is an average of 200 damage - how many things have more HP than that while having enough AC that a +21 attack bonus will only hit them 1/3 of the time?). Sure, Wail of the Banshee can take out a small army... if they don't pass their Fort saves ... if they're subject to it (Undead and Constructs aren't) ... if they don't have meaningful SR ... if they don't have something up to block it (it's a Sonic Death effect - there's several things that will stop it cold) ... and so on. Meanwhile, the Wizard that uses Shades to make a flanking buddy for the Rogue grants no save of importance to anyone (even disbelieved, that fake Summon Monster VIII still threatens), as is going to be liked by the rest of the party.


Precisely! Altruistic PCs use the other characters' abilities... er.... wait a minute.
It's "enhance" other characters' abilities. Essentially, though, yes; that's what an Altruistic PC full caster does.

Temp
2007-11-11, 04:15 PM
Even the batman does better with allies, though.Agreed--I was trying to say that with the emphasis on the word "need."

Probably should have actually stated it directly, though.


Sure, Wail of the Banshee can take out a small army... if they don't pass their Fort saves ... if they're subject to it (Undead and Constructs aren't) ... if they don't have meaningful SR ... if they don't have something up to block it (it's a Sonic Death effect - there's several things that will stop it cold) ... and so on.But the same turns a Wizard spends casting multiple spells (one will succeed) are the ones that the Fighter is spending trying to deal hit-point damage. If the Wizard beats the Fighter to the punch (neutralizing the enemy through paralysis/deporation to another plane/death/whatever), the Fighter's hit point damage did nothing.

The Wizard is also more likely to beat the monster first because he can choose which defense to attack (Fort/Will/Ref/Touch). The Fighter's stuck bashing against the creature's AC.

And the Wizard can target groups of creatures with each standard-action attack instead of a singular enemy, so speed is definitely on his side.

So even though the non-casters are helping, the Wizard/Spellcaster will usually be the one to do everything that matters.

Kantolin
2007-11-11, 05:01 PM
Interestingly, one of the major advantages to wizards are their abilities to buff things.

Now, if your use/not depends on the spellcaster buffing you to holy heck and back... then this is still Batman/CoDzilla. You are still fairly useless and it's the spells that are doing the work.

But I am noticing that people are far more accepting of that application of abuse than others, likely because it means they get to keep in combat rolling dice.

Either way, even buffmages feel the painful sting of Mystic Theurge as you progress, but it pretty much solves itself at level 20. Up until then, you're staring at 'I could have haste now...' or a bit later, 'I could have heal now...'

At level 20, though, it solves itself.

Personally, I suggest mystic theurges focus heavily on swift-action spells: They can afford to throw one every round, so they may as well. Whether through quicken spell, or through things like Stay the Hand.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-11, 05:31 PM
Interestingly, one of the major advantages to wizards are their abilities to buff things.

Now, if your use/not depends on the spellcaster buffing you to holy heck and back... then this is still Batman/CoDzilla. You are still fairly useless and it's the spells that are doing the work.

Additionally, most people don't see that unless their noses are rubbed in it.


But I am noticing that people are far more accepting of that application of abuse than others, likely because it means they get to keep in combat rolling dice.

Right. Other-buffing is a way to keep everyone at the table participating and having fun - which is fundamentally the point of the game. Sure, you can break CR guidelines doing this, but that's okay, the DM can compensate for that without too much trouble. It's much, much easier for the DM to throw critters at a party that keeps itself on a roughly even keel through good tactics than it is for the DM to throw critters at a group of four individuals playing at different levels - especially if the DM is trying to maintain verisimilitude.

Broken is not made of powerful individuals - it's made of a significant disparity of power.


Either way, even buffmages feel the painful sting of Mystic Theurge as you progress, but it pretty much solves itself at level 20. Up until then, you're staring at 'I could have haste now...' or a bit later, 'I could have heal now...'

Pretty much, unless you "cheat" and get an early entry method.


At level 20, though, it solves itself.

Personally, I suggest mystic theurges focus heavily on swift-action spells: They can afford to throw one every round, so they may as well. Whether through quicken spell, or through things like Stay the Hand.
Decent suggestion.

Oh - on a side note, in some ways it is a good thing that a MT is behind the normal Primary Caster power curve by default - Primary Casters have a tendency of being well ahead of the non-casters.

Chronos
2007-11-11, 06:25 PM
Now, if your use/not depends on the spellcaster buffing you to holy heck and back... then this is still Batman/CoDzilla. You are still fairly useless and it's the spells that are doing the work.Yes and no... The wizard still needs someone to cast those spells on. Haste + Greater Invisibility + Rogue is a far more powerful combination than a 3rd and 4th level spell by themselves.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-11, 07:44 PM
It's "enhance" other characters' abilities. Essentially, though, yes; that's what an Altruistic PC full caster does.

Well, yes. I agree that playing a buff mage keeps the game more fun for more players - and you can throw in utility spells like teleport and divination because your group is going to need those too.

I think this needs a different name than "Batman", though, because the dark knight traditionally works alone (ok, or with that robin dude...)

For the record, I think the one thing worse than the "I can do anything by myself" Batman wizard is the Zookeeper Druid, because he also handles entire encounters by himself but takes up an inordinate amount of time doing so required for the bookkeeping for his summoned army.

So we need two superhero names here, one for a team player that improves the rest of the team, and one for a team player that creates the rest of the team...

Jack_Simth
2007-11-11, 08:36 PM
So we need two superhero names here, one for a team player that improves the rest of the team, and one for a team player that creates the rest of the team...
Hmm... well, The Beastmaster works for the summoned army.... what about "Giles" for the buffmaster?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-11, 09:25 PM
Always Robin and the Teen Titans or Sensei and Team (Favorite Number) or Superman and the Justice League.

Fishy
2007-11-11, 09:31 PM
I'm almost certain this doesn't work, but.

If you could get the skills and Mage Hand taken care of, a hypothetical Cleric 5/Assassin 3/Mystic Theurge 2 qualifies for Arcane Trickster. AT advances his Sneak Attack, and gives him "new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

Can he gain spellcasting as if he had gained a level of Mystic Theurge?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-11, 09:34 PM
I'm almost certain this doesn't work, but.

If you could get the skills and Mage Hand taken care of, a hypothetical Cleric 5/Assassin 3/Mystic Theurge 2 qualifies for Arcane Trickster. AT advances his Sneak Attack, and gives him "new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

Can he gain spellcasting as if he had gained a level of Mystic Theurge?

Normally, Arcane Trickster advancement will Not advance Dual MT level advancement if that is what you are asking but I recall seeing one single dip level that did that in a build before for a single level.

If it did a PC could have multi-advancing builds stacked on top of multadvancing builds like going Ur Adept MT to Ultimate Magus (Two arcane classes).

Jack_Simth
2007-11-11, 09:40 PM
Can he gain spellcasting as if he had gained a level of Mystic Theurge?
No - Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class.

If you allow that, you see, you've got the problem of the Wiz-3/Clr-3/MT-1 wanting to apply the Arcane side to his Wizard caster level, and the Divine side to his Mystic Theurge.... which then nets another Arcane for the Wiz side, and another Divine to put to Mystich Theurge, and so on, for an infinite Wizard caster level and spell access.

MrNexx
2007-11-12, 02:47 AM
You'll also be behind though on spellcasting by approximately 3 levels with each build type. With AH, you're behind an extra level in one of your classes, since you need to fulfill the BAB requirement.

Bobble it a little differently. Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2/ AH 10/ MT 2. Throwing in those two levels of MT loses you no levels of spellcasting (that you didn't lose "catching up" in wizard), lets you take pure Arcane Heirophant for a good stretch of your career, and that early buffer of druid will cover your wizardy weakness (because a level 3/1 will do better if its Druid/Wizard than if its Wizard/Druid). When you take your first level of AH, you'll have a 4th level animal companion, 6th level familiar combo; you'll start Wild Shaping at AH 2, BUT by then you HD will be 10, giving you a good number of options.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 03:18 AM
Bobble it a little differently. Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2/ AH 10/ MT 2. Throwing in those two levels of MT loses you no levels of spellcasting (that you didn't lose "catching up" in wizard), lets you take pure Arcane Heirophant for a good stretch of your career, and that early buffer of druid will cover your wizardy weakness (because a level 3/1 will do better if its Druid/Wizard than if its Wizard/Druid). When you take your first level of AH, you'll have a 4th level animal companion, 6th level familiar combo; you'll start Wild Shaping at AH 2, BUT by then you HD will be 10, giving you a good number of options.

Nice bobble, I've seen this done with Archivist and forgoing the Wild Shaping of the PRC for SAD Intelligence, the D6, +7 BAB, No ASF in Druid armor types, 4 SPs, and level 9 spells on both sides (with BAB averaging and Bamboo Spirit Folk to pick up Trackless Step).

MrNexx
2007-11-12, 04:03 AM
Nice bobble, I've seen this done with Archivist and forgoing the Wild Shaping of the PRC for SAD Intelligence, the D6, +7 BAB, No ASF in Druid armor types, 4 SPs, and level 9 spells on both sides (with BAB averaging and Bamboo Spirit Folk to pick up Trackless Step).

I could see a possible problem with this, actually. Technically, if you pick up Trackless Step by being a Spirit Folk, it's not a class feature, as specified by the PrC, but a racial feature. Exceedingly nitpicky, I know, but I would believe it of some DMs (or, rather, some people I have seen on message boards).

Kaelik
2007-11-12, 04:42 AM
My favorite Mystic Theurge build is Wizard 5/Mindbender 1(Thank you Jack for giving me a wonderful update to the build)/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Wizard 1(Or other PrC)/Archmage 5.

With Alternative Spell Source (Dragon Magazine) you can DMM Persist all your Wizard spells too, plus you can use Archmage's Arcane Reach and other abilities with Cleric spells.

And you still get Wizard 18/and Ur-Priest 10 (Caster level 15) spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 04:45 AM
I could see a possible problem with this, actually. Technically, if you pick up Trackless Step by being a Spirit Folk, it's not a class feature, as specified by the PrC, but a racial feature. Exceedingly nitpicky, I know, but I would believe it of some DMs (or, rather, some people I have seen on message boards).

Agree it's a little gray, the only race I know of that grants that although I'm sure there are others, some campaigns would allow it and others wouldn't by their RAW interpretation.

RoW Special: Trackless Step Class feature. OE under Bamboo Spirit Folk Trackless Step: Bamboo spirit folk leave no trail in natural surrounding and cannot be tracked.

It got me thinking about a SAD Intelligence Bamboo Spirit Folk PC which might not be legal in all campaigns with:

Beguiler - 1 (with Precocious Apprentice feat), Archivist - 3, MT -6, AH - 10

The PC would end up casting as a Beguiler - 17 with level 8 spells (Over 150 spells known and ready for most situaltions giving a lot of options tweaking the Archivist spell list), along with casting as a Archivist - 19 with level 9 spells (Arcane and Divine).

MrNexx
2007-11-12, 04:51 AM
Agree it's a little gray, the only race I know of that grants that although I'm sure there are others, some campaigns would allow it and others wouldn't by their RAW interpretation.

It got me thinking about a SAD Intelligence Bamboo Spirit Folk PC with:

Beguiler - 1 (with Precocious Apprentice feat), Archivist - 3, MT -6, AH - 10

The PC would end up casting as a Beguiler - 17 with level 8 spells, along with casting as a Archivist - 19 with level 9 spells (Arcane and Divine), it might not be considered legal in all campaigns using the Precocious Apprentice feat but an awful lot of versalitity and spellcasting options if it is legal in a campaign since the PC picks up so much that single casting level.

I wouldn't like that over a wizard simply because of the loss of versatility by going beguiler. Sure, you make up some of it as a Archivist, but so much of it would be EASIER as a wizard.

But, I have to admit, I tend to think old-school when it comes to wizards. Our group in 2nd edition used to acquire wizards spellbooks and make them our own (I think the process is called mastering in 3.x), rather than bothering to recopy everything.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 05:02 AM
My thinking was almost the opposite, with the Beguiler side you have over 150 known spells available to cast which makes it easier to do your PC spell record keeping by only needing to tweak the Archivist daily spell lists and having a lot of spell options if it went horribly wrong or most of your daily spellcasting is used up on both sides. Your PC can cast any known spell of a level he has an open spell slot or lower, lots of spell versatility and options.

Occassionally even high level casters are challenged and unable to take a break in most games. Going Beguiler the PC might only have a single level 8 spell left on the Beguiler side but that is 7 potential spells to cast for a situation plus all the lower level spells, it might not be the most optimal spell for the situation but there should be something that will help.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-12, 07:28 AM
My favorite Mystic Theurge build is Wizard 5/Mindbender 1(Thank you Jack for giving me a wonderful update to the build)/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Wizard 1(Or other PrC)/Archmage 5.

With Alternative Spell Source (Dragon Magazine) you can DMM Persist all your Wizard spells too, plus you can use Archmage's Arcane Reach and other abilities with Cleric spells.

And you still get Wizard 18/and Ur-Priest 10 (Caster level 15) spells.

*sigh* if you really want to powergame it, try your hand at a Savage Bard (UA Variant - good Fort save, poor Reflex, a few less important things)-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Savage Bard/Ur-Priest) 3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge (Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest) 5/Archmage (or other PrC)-4.

Bardic Music to make your character worthwhile in low levels, bardic skills to make qualifying very easy, 5th level (ur-priest) spell access at character level 10 (if you've got a +5 Wis modifier - a pure cleric gets these at 9th), 5th level Arcane spells at character level 11, 9th level Divine spells (if you can arrange a Wis modifier of +9 by then, which is tricky) at character level 15 (two levels ahead of a pure Cleric) and 9th level Arcane spells at character level 19 (taken from both the Sor/Wiz list and the Bard list), plus four levels of Archmage (or other PrC abilites) to play with. Alternately, trade a level of Archmage at the end for another level of Sublime Chord - gets you the Song of Arcane Power (spend a Bardic Music use and make a Perform check to increase your caster level by 1 to 4 (depending on the Perform check) as a Move action). You can also drop the Archmage levels to increase your caster level further in both Ur-Priest as well as Sublime Chord.

At 20th, Spell Access as: Bard-8, Sublime Chord-10, Ur-Priest-10
Caster Level As:
Reading 1: Bard-8/Sublime Chord-18/Ur-Priest 19 (double progression)
Reading 2: Bard-8/Sublime Chord-15/Ur-Priest 13 (only actual class levels in the base class, plus the stuff that adds directly)
(Practiced Spellcaster twice brings that to Bard-8/Sublime Chord 20 or 19, and Ur-Priest 20 or 17).

Downsides Vs. Wizard-5/MindBender-1 opening:
1) You're playing a BARD for levels 1-5, even if a savage one.
2) Fewer spells per day than the Wizard Build
3) Fewer spells known than the Wizard build (if only because a Wizard spends a lot on their spellbook)
4) Additional Multiple Attribute Dependancy (you'll need a modicum of Intelligence to make the 48 skill points for Sublime Chord during the initial Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge phase from levels 6-10; Able Learner will help a lot, though, as the Bard levels put everything at your class limit)

Upsides Vs. Wizard-5/Mindbender-1 opening:
1) Access to a wider range of spells
2) Earlier access to the first half of your Divine spells before 10th (same access, after).
3) No spellbook dependancy.
4) Spontaneous casting on one side (paperwork reducer, no spellbook dependancy) while still keeping the advantages of prepared spells on the other.

Two feats spent to get into Ur-Priest, then whatever feats you need to spend to get into