Help me make a Munchkin with these stats!!!

[kbob]

I played this past weekend and was subjected to a grind method of character generation. We all rolled up several characters that were level 0. Everything was random. Stats were 3D6 and rolled in order Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha. HP were 1D4 plus con mod. The rule was if your mod gave you negative HP then that char was dead. I had 3 die off the bat. We rolled several of these as back ups. Most of mine that lived after creation had 1 or 2 HP. We went through a short “dungeon” and 2 of my characters died there. If you hit 0, then you died. No death saves till you made it to level 1 (survive “dungeon”). Equipment is generated too. You start with one random weapon and you are “proficient” as in no disadvantage but revive no prof bonus. I had one that had a dart as his weapon. He died. The dungeon is short and easy for any level one group. But our group of 0s was less than stellar.
It was actually hilarious.
Anyway, I still have 2 more characters. One is meh and will probably die. But the other I got jackpot lucky on my rolls and hope he survives. He is the one I need help on. He is a human (was random too) and will use the variant stats IF he makes it to 1. His ability scores are: 18 Str. 12 Dex. 17 Con. 14 Int. 13 wis. 12 Cha.
HP are 4 (I rolled a 1) but they will be added to his 1st level HP as a bonus if he lives. His name is Dingus, but I named them all Dingus. He has a longsword and hide armor (got lucky on those too), 29 copper, and a candle.
So with those stats, can’t move the scores around as they had to be rolled in order, what would you make him to be??? I mean I know caster is out, which sucks, but dang I don’t roll like that with 4d6 drop lowest. What level progression. Obviously a martial class but would you go straight fighter or babrbarian? Multiclass?? I mean have a few caster levels? Subclasses? Feats?
If he lives, he will have overcome the odds (one player has made it through already so there is hope) and has rolled incredible stats against the odds as well. Break him in all the munchkiny glory he deserves!! Has to be forgotten realms compatible (no Eberron, theros, ravenloft, etc) and only official published material. No UA. That should still be a lot to work with though as most material works with FR. How would you try to make him busted?! Please help! Thank you!

[Dork_Forge]

Phew that sounds rough, but err... go Dingus?

I think a Psi Warrior would be a good basis for this character, you get to make use out of your Int whilst still being a martial and the abilities will work just fine in Rage if you want to MC into Barbarian.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Munchkin" is never a term of endearment, it's always an insult or slur. Don't use it, don't try to normalize using it as a good thing.

Being a variant human, you'll probably put those +1's into Con and Wis to even them out. However, I'd put them into Str and Con and get a +1 Str feat to start with it at 20.

Go Fighter first for heavy armor proficiency with Heavy Armor Master. Probably Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior given the Int score, but any of the stronger archetypes would work. Pick up some Barbarian if you prefer, but you could just stick to Fighter for your whole career.

You could also make a melee Cleric, putting those +1's into Con and Wis. Take Magic Initiate (Int) for Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Chromatic Orb and go Tempest Cleric, or go with the overpowered Twilight Cleric and whatever feat you want.

[Unoriginal]

Those stats are pretty godlike for a 1rst level Barbarian. Although a Fighter would be great too, especially the mentioned-above Psi Warrior.

[LumenPlacidum]

I wouldn't take casters off the table. What you just described is old school character generation. A score of 14 Int is actually stellar for that kind of old school meatgrinder. The other scores are absolutely phenomenal. But, I would probably make some sort of gish with that array. Survival in the sort of game that you are probably about to sink into is all about being really cautious and making smart decisions. I would start as a level 1 Artificer to get Con save proficiency, a solid amount of hp, useful cantrips, and to not lose a spellcasting level. In the interest of being really cautious, I'd put almost all of your spells into defense. Your strength is going to give you an okay offense no matter what. Absorb Elements, Alarm, False Life (for very early levels only), and Sanctuary are probably going to keep you alive. I want to reiterate that such an old school approach to character generation is likely going to indicate an old school approach to things like ambushing you during rests. Use the Alarm ritual every single night when you go to bed.

I'd try to get Artificer 2 for the Returning Weapon and Enhanced Defense infusions. You do lose a spellcasting level for these, but they will make you capable of keeping back in a fight and still attacking with Strength.

After that, I'd go wizard. Getting some staple defenses, like Shield and Blur would improve your odds of survival a lot. You don't have enough Int or Dex to go Bladesinger, but something like Abjurer will make you much tougher. Conjurer will let you get out of some scrapes with the ability to generate cover for yourself and eventually with Benign Transposition.

Once you get to level 5, you'll pretty much be out of the woods, and the campaign will become more like a stereotypical 5e campaign rather than what sounds like a 1e adventure.

One thing about a game like this is that you feel accomplished when and if you get a character to advance to Tier II of play.

[Composer99]

Honestly? You'd be fine as a wizard. Just emphasise spells that don't rely on your save DC until you bump your Int to 16.

Maybe start with a level of fighter for heavy armour and shield, or pick up a level of fighter somewhere in there for medium armour and shield proficiency. Or artificer, but I haven't read the class description enough to have a solid grasp of it.

[HPisBS]

"Munchkin" is never a term of endearment, it's always an insult or slur. Don't use it, don't try to normalize using it as a good thing.

:smalltongue:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fddoplayers.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2F2018-July-MunchkinDungeon-Main.png&f=1&nofb=1



Being a variant human, you'll probably put those +1's into Con and Wis to even them out. However, I'd put them into Str and Con and get a +1 Str feat to start with it at 20.

Go Fighter first for heavy armor proficiency with Heavy Armor Master. Probably Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior given the Int score, but any of the stronger archetypes would work. Pick up some Barbarian if you prefer, but you could just stick to Fighter for your whole career.

Good call on pushing Str to 20 at lvl 1.

I'm less sure about that Heavy Armor Master, though. It'll probably be a while before he can get any heavy armor to actually use with it. Maybe he could find some ring mail around lvl 3 or 4.

The other options would be Skill Expert or one of the damage type specializations - presumably Slasher.


Alternatively, he could leave Str at 19 for now, save HAM for lvl 4 (around the time when he would actually be able to use heavy armor), and grab one of the half-feats from Xanathar's. Maybe pick up some utility with Telepathic or Shadow Touched (1/day Invisibility and either Disguise Self or False Life). Maybe strengthen his survivability with Chef, Resilient: Wis, or Observant. But since we're looking to optimize, he'd probably prefer Fey Touched for 1/day Misty Step + Hex, Hunter's Mark, or Bless. Hex would let him debuff targets' Str or Dex so that he could grapple and shove them better, in addition to the extra d6 necrotic on every hit. (Plus, it would last for up to an hour.)


Edit:

Those stats are pretty godlike for a 1rst level Barbarian. Although a Fighter would be great too, especially the mentioned-above Psi Warrior.

Better yet, a Rune Knight for some magic that goes off of Con.

[Unoriginal]

Better yet, a Rune Knight for some magic that goes off of Con.

Rune Knight would be Dingus's Revenge, indeed.

[HPisBS]

Rune Knight would be Dingus's Revenge, indeed.

Especially if any of the other PCs make Sorcerers or Wizards. Then, he could fight as a huge swordsman as early as lvl 3. :smallcool:



... Survival in the sort of game that you are probably about to sink into is all about being really cautious and making smart decisions. I would start as a level 1 Artificer to get Con save proficiency, a solid amount of hp, useful cantrips, and to not lose a spellcasting level. In the interest of being really cautious, I'd put almost all of your spells into defense. Your strength is going to give you an okay offense no matter what. Absorb Elements, Alarm, False Life (for very early levels only), and Sanctuary are probably going to keep you alive. I want to reiterate that such an old school approach to character generation is likely going to indicate an old school approach to things like ambushing you during rests. Use the Alarm ritual every single night when you go to bed.

I'd try to get Artificer 2 for the Returning Weapon and Enhanced Defense infusions. You do lose a spellcasting level for these, but they will make you capable of keeping back in a fight and still attacking with Strength.

After that, I'd go wizard. Getting some staple defenses, like Shield and Blur would improve your odds of survival a lot. You don't have enough Int or Dex to go Bladesinger, but something like Abjurer will make you much tougher. Conjurer will let you get out of some scrapes with the ability to generate cover for yourself and eventually with Benign Transposition.

Once you get to level 5, you'll pretty much be out of the woods, and the campaign will become more like a stereotypical 5e campaign rather than what sounds like a 1e adventure.

One thing about a game like this is that you feel accomplished when and if you get a character to advance to Tier II of play.

Or just stick with Artificer and become an Armorer. That gets you heavy armor, some thp, extra attack, and an elemental melee attack with a rider to use with that excellent Str.

- That is, if Artificer is even allowed?


... Has to be forgotten realms compatible (no Eberron, theros, ravenloft, etc)

[Unoriginal]

- That is, if Artificer is even allowed?

There are Artificiers in the Forgotten Realms.

[HPisBS]

There are Artificiers in the Forgotten Realms.

Oh, right, I guess Tasha's made them no longer be setting specific.

Either way, though, I'd definitely lean more toward Fighter. Especially in a party that could eventually Enlarge a large Rune Knight into a huge Rune Knight lol. (Ultimately into a gargantuan, if you make it to lvl 18.)

If you like to shove and/or grapple, then a Barbarian dip could be pretty potent. And if LumenPlacidum is right about you being in for a lot of ambushes in the dead of night, it'd get you a 15 / 17 AC + b/p/s resistance when you wake up in your skivvies.

[Lokishade]

Those stats are amazing for Eldritch Knight. That constitution is awesome for maintaining concentration in the thick of battle. And for survival, considering how hardcore your campaign seems to be.

Eldritch Knights give you 3 options:

1. Gish

With the most ASIs out of any class, that average Int can be bumped up pretty fast, opening up the efficiency of your spell selection.

2. PAM with shield

If you find your spellcasting too limited to feel like you're breaking the game, there is still the martial part of your gish. A shield is a huge boost for survivability and the extra attack from PAM makes TWF completely irrelevant to you.

3. GWM+PAM

If you feel like you have plenty enough of survival already, you can go all-in, hitting really hard and fast with a glaive. With vHuman, it's completely online as soon as level 4. The fact that you're supplemented by magic really gives you the best of both worlds.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Depending on how long you are playing I'd be tempted to leave the Wis at 13 and get Resilient Wis at some point. I was thinking of a 3-4 level Gloomstalker dip, but you'd need a 13 Dex as well.

[Hael]

Stats are pretty amazing for an Echo Knight as well.

[Gignere]

Second the EK suggestion, grab HAM for defense, GWM + PAM, and blindfighting. Drop fog clouds to get advantage to all your attacks starting at level 3.

[borg286]

Consider the Tortle for natural AC of 17, no need to find heavy armor.
Fighter has second wind, so should help in these cleric-less dungeons. Barbarians have resistance while raging, but you'll want to pace yourself as he can't keep it up for every fight in a long day.
You might consider artificer for it's steel defender and soaking damage so you don't risk it.
Polearm master can help you get more damage but is more protective of oneself as you hit foes coming towards you.

[Witty Username]

Halfling bard expertise in performance, and bond "Member of the Lolipop guild"

[Sherlockpwns]

That’s a fine stat array and a funny way to start a campaign, but it’s not something super munchkinable over a standard point buy. This is because D&D usually only uses 2-3 stats per char. So your dump stats will have better than normal saves and a small boost to skill rolls and the like, but it’s not like you’ll be a god amongst adventurers, so I’d say stick with whatever sounds fun.

Soapbox aside, here is what I would do with that stat and race array.

First as stated you have the chance to grab str 20 at level 1. Hard to pass that up. You con and lack of str basically point you towards heavy armor.

Your mental stats are good enough to multi class but not good enough to be primary parts of the build.

To me this basically means fighter 1 is basically a must have. Then it’s just a decision between being a pure fighter and a Gish. As for what fighting style, I’ve started to really love blind fighting, but you’ll never go wrong with +1 ac. As a human though, consider blind fighting- not just because there are lots of fun ways to abuse it (fog cloud, darkness, etc) but it’s just handy not to absolutely need a light at all times.

Given the stat array and the fact I find pure fighters a bit dull, Gish it up!

I recently made a post about war wizard focused on self buffs & utility spells with scag cantrips as your primary attack. Use a versatile weapon so you have a hand free for casting. If your DM lets you use a shield, all the better. At level 2 you are basically a fighter with a scag cantrip and a two emergency shield spells. At 4 you can mirror image or blur for more defense, and At level 6 you’ll have haste, at 8 polymorph, and if you get that far, at 12 you’ll have tensers. Toss in an aoe damage spell here or there when the opportunity is too good to pass up, and spend the rest of your spells on utilities like fly, feather fall, passwall, and other spells that don’t require saves or attack rolls. You’ll be a front line wizard. When your buff spell is up you’d outdamage your pure fighter counterpart, but most importantly you’ll have plenty of spells to cast out of combat to move the game plot.

It’s no munchkin, but being able to boost your saves by +4, a high AC due to armor or shield spells, and your high con, plus your naturally high stars in general should make you very tanky.

If you make it to level 12, swap to two weapon fighting while under tensers. Ideally find someone to haste you too. Beyond that it’s just the nonsense world of high level wizarding. Be sure to pick up war caster at level 5 to ensure concentration. You don’t want that haste to wear off while standing in front of a giant.

But most importantly is don’t conserve your spells! A single spell is likely all you’ll need per encounter. Two at most. Use those our of combat spells to solve all kinds of problems. It’ll be a blast!

[HPisBS]

...
Your mental stats are good enough to multi class but not good enough to be primary parts of the build.
...
Given the stat array and the fact I find pure fighters a bit dull, Gish it up!
...
It’s no munchkin, but being able to boost your saves by +4, a high AC due to armor or shield spells, and your high con, plus your naturally high stars in general should make you very tanky.
...
But most importantly is don’t conserve your spells! A single spell is likely all you’ll need per encounter. Two at most. Use those our of combat spells to solve all kinds of problems. It’ll be a blast!

Blasting is one thing he wouldn't be doing. :smalltongue:

[CTurbo]

With stats like that I'd go Barbarian. I'd start 18 Str, 13 Dex, and 18 Con and grab GWM. Max out Str at level 4. Or go sword and board if you're worried about AC. You could even take a few levels of Ranger at some point if you want. I think Barbarian/Ranger makes an interesting pair.

Barbarians are pretty hard to kill. I'd want to bump Dex to 14 eventually.

[da newt]

If you didn't want to go with Fighter or Barbarian, you could go Paladin. Your CHA is low so your aura will be less than most, but you'll add smites etc to a great martial chassis.

[The_Jette]

I played this past weekend and was subjected to a grind method of character generation. We all rolled up several characters that were level 0. Everything was random. Stats were 3D6 and rolled in order Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha. HP were 1D4 plus con mod. The rule was if your mod gave you negative HP then that char was dead. I had 3 die off the bat. We rolled several of these as back ups. Most of mine that lived after creation had 1 or 2 HP. We went through a short “dungeon” and 2 of my characters died there. If you hit 0, then you died. No death saves till you made it to level 1 (survive “dungeon”). Equipment is generated too. You start with one random weapon and you are “proficient” as in no disadvantage but revive no prof bonus. I had one that had a dart as his weapon. He died. The dungeon is short and easy for any level one group. But our group of 0s was less than stellar.
It was actually hilarious.
Anyway, I still have 2 more characters. One is meh and will probably die. But the other I got jackpot lucky on my rolls and hope he survives. He is the one I need help on. He is a human (was random too) and will use the variant stats IF he makes it to 1. His ability scores are: 18 Str. 12 Dex. 17 Con. 14 Int. 13 wis. 12 Cha.
HP are 4 (I rolled a 1) but they will be added to his 1st level HP as a bonus if he lives. His name is Dingus, but I named them all Dingus. He has a longsword and hide armor (got lucky on those too), 29 copper, and a candle.
So with those stats, can’t move the scores around as they had to be rolled in order, what would you make him to be??? I mean I know caster is out, which sucks, but dang I don’t roll like that with 4d6 drop lowest. What level progression. Obviously a martial class but would you go straight fighter or babrbarian? Multiclass?? I mean have a few caster levels? Subclasses? Feats?
If he lives, he will have overcome the odds (one player has made it through already so there is hope) and has rolled incredible stats against the odds as well. Break him in all the munchkiny glory he deserves!! Has to be forgotten realms compatible (no Eberron, theros, ravenloft, etc) and only official published material. No UA. That should still be a lot to work with though as most material works with FR. How would you try to make him busted?! Please help! Thank you!

Honestly, with these stats you'd still make a pretty stellar Paladin. Bump up your Charisma and Strength instead of your Con and Str and you'll be in a good position. I think that, with Tasha's, you could grab a Charisma boosting feat. I don't have it with me, but some of the feats that add spells to your repertoire have boosting Cha as an option, I believe. Or, you can boost your Str to 20 at 1st level, and just keep adding to Cha after that until you have a good amount. Heck, your first ASI could be used to put a +1 in Con and +1 in Cha, so you have an 18 Con and 14 Cha, with that 20 Str carrying you through your first few levels.

[Eldariel]

Nothing stops you from going Wizard or Artificer. They have many great no-save spells and buffs and you can totally get everything else done with the chassis (with that Str, you'd be fine in melee especially early on). You'd make a fine Bladesinger if you picked up Moderately Armored and just went Str BS. It would be a while and certainly a wild ride, but it could pay off (you hit Moderately Armored on level 4, where you'd finally have 18 AC and Str weapons and grappling and such). Res: Con to start off (tho PAM also worjs), +1 Dex/Con-or-Int (depending on if you go Res:Con or PAM), Moderately Armored for 14 Dex on level 4 and then just Int and Int feats while smacking face with whatever you feel like (you could even go like PAM BS which could be hilarious and surprisingly efficient).

[Dork_Forge]

Nothing stops you from going Wizard or Artificer. They have many great no-save spells and buffs and you can totally get everything else done with the chassis (with that Str, you'd be fine in melee especially early on). You'd make a fine Bladesinger if you picked up Moderately Armored and just went Str BS. It would be a while and certainly a wild ride, but it could pay off (you hit Moderately Armored on level 4, where you'd finally have 18 AC and Str weapons and grappling and such). Res: Con to start off (tho PAM also worjs), +1 Dex/Con-or-Int (depending on if you go Res:Con or PAM), Moderately Armored for 14 Dex on level 4 and then just Int and Int feats while smacking face with whatever you feel like (you could even go like PAM BS which could be hilarious and surprisingly efficient).

You can't bladesing in medium armor.

[Eldariel]

You can't bladesing in medium armor.

Who cares? You take Bladesinger for the light armor prof and the super Extra Attack on 6. And for all the usual Wizard fare of course. This guy could make for a great Spirit Shroud user, actually. Quarterstaff + Shield, 3 attacks including cantrip hit, 19 AC with access to Shield (though some trouble with Somatics; might need War Caster since it gets finnicky otherwise), etc.

[Dork_Forge]

So you recommend being in melee regularly with a d6 hit die and medium armor?

Even if they take Res:Con at 1st to round Con out to 18, that's the hp max equivalent of a martial with a +2 Con and no real class abilities. Doable? Sure, but you'll have to choose defense or offense for your concentration and will likely be looking towards the nearest healer longingly, quite frequently.

[Eldariel]

So you recommend being in melee regularly with a d6 hit die and medium armor?

Even if they take Res:Con at 1st to round Con out to 18, that's the hp max equivalent of a martial with a +2 Con and no real class abilities. Doable? Sure, but you'll have to choose defense or offense for your concentration and will likely be looking towards the nearest healer longingly, quite frequently.

Like I've said before, HD is a rather minor part of character survivability. The least important one, generally. Everything else matters more. It's a rather functional build, though certainly a bit out of the left field. Lets you play a Wizard while using those great stats for hitting things in the face.

[Dork_Forge]

Like I've said before, HD is a rather minor part of character survivability. The least important one, generally. Everything else matters more. It's a rather functional build, though certainly a bit out of the left field. Lets you play a Wizard while using those great stats for hitting things in the face.

You can mostly do Wizard things normally, but the Hit Die isn't the crux of my argument, having almost no support for being in melee is.

You said an 18AC, so I assume that's Breastplate and a shield? From the looks of it there's no Warcaster, so no Shield spell or, well most spells when you get into melee. Unlike martials that may have equivalent hp, this build would also have no way of healing themselves.

A way to play a medium armored Wizard? Sure, but getting into melee looks nothing like dropping to 0 waiting to happen.

[Eldariel]

You can mostly do Wizard things normally, but the Hit Die isn't the crux of my argument, having almost no support for being in melee is.

You said an 18AC, so I assume that's Breastplate and a shield? From the looks of it there's no Warcaster, so no Shield spell or, well most spells when you get into melee. Unlike martials that may have equivalent hp, this build would also have no way of healing themselves.

A way to play a medium armored Wizard? Sure, but getting into melee looks nothing like dropping to 0 waiting to happen.

Well, you'll have 19 AC eventually. You can False Life or whatever and throw up a spell and get into melee. Though there's also the "my staff is my arcane focus" as a potential option. FWIW, Mearls says it goes (https://twitter.com/GamerJosh/status/509454115861434368). And there are ways to unlock the melee casting even without that; stove away/drop staff, draw a new one each turn to have a hand free each other/each offturn for example. Eventually you'll probably grab War Caster.

You also get all sorts of Wizard benefits: familiar for the advantage per turn on attack, solid melee booster Extra Attack, your usual spell list for self-buffing (if desired, you can even double up on Mirror Image/Blink/etc.) and with the usual assortment of damage options on top of it.

[kbob]

There are some great ideas on here. I have one of my own. I was thinking some kind of fighter with a 2 dip war wizard. I think their 2nd level ability would be great for melee build. Either that or take 1 dip in peace cleric or dip in both. The peace cleric just seems almost OP. I’ve seen on other posts people claiming that they ban it. I don’t hunk it’s THAT powerful to ban but it seems pretty powerful. (Actually thinking about dipping one level in it with my Paladin in a different game).
What do y’all think about that? If so should I go both or just one? I know going both pushes my ASI, prof bonus, and extra attack back. I would prob go PAM and get GWF later when my prof bonus goes up.
If i go that route I’m thinking EK or BM. What do y’all think?

[Eldariel]

There are some great ideas on here. I have one of my own. I was thinking some kind of fighter with a 2 dip war wizard. I think their 2nd level ability would be great for melee build. Either that or take 1 dip in peace cleric or dip in both. The peace cleric just seems almost OP. I’ve seen on other posts people claiming that they ban it. I don’t hunk it’s THAT powerful to ban but it seems pretty powerful. (Actually thinking about dipping one level in it with my Paladin in a different game).
What do y’all think about that? If so should I go both or just one? I know going both pushes my ASI, prof bonus, and extra attack back. I would prob go PAM and get GWF later when my prof bonus goes up.
If i go that route I’m thinking EK or BM. What do y’all think?

Peace Cleric is very strong and War Wizard is indeed solid for a warrior. Battlemaster 5 followed by straight Wizard or something could be fun. Lots of great options. You can do pretty much whatever you want as long as you don't need Cha for it (which is kind of a pity; otherwise Paladin would be a great dip).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There are some great ideas on here. I have one of my own. I was thinking some kind of fighter with a 2 dip war wizard. I think their 2nd level ability would be great for melee build. Either that or take 1 dip in peace cleric or dip in both. The peace cleric just seems almost OP. I’ve seen on other posts people claiming that they ban it. I don’t hunk it’s THAT powerful to ban but it seems pretty powerful. (Actually thinking about dipping one level in it with my Paladin in a different game).
What do y’all think about that? If so should I go both or just one? I know going both pushes my ASI, prof bonus, and extra attack back. I would prob go PAM and get GWF later when my prof bonus goes up.
If i go that route I’m thinking EK or BM. What do y’all think?

I like War Wizard more for a dip than an actual class; Arcane Deflection seems too restrictive on subsequent turns for a full caster. So far as fighter subclass just keep in mind that when you multiclass with a 1/3 caster you go from effectively rounding up for your caster level to rounding down. So, EK 7/8 is only worth 2 caster levels instead of 3 for the single class. That one always bugs me, so I'd avoid it and go BM if I were multiclassing.

[da newt]

IMO a 1 lvl dip into cleric would be a great bonus for a fighter in terms of utility, but the Peace Domain is all about resolving conflict - this does not fit a Fighter thematically even though it would be a nice mechanical boost. (But if you are looking to munchkin all that you can, go for it.)

A War Wizard 2 dip would also be handy, but I wouldn't try to force a GISH out of this - the casting stats will always be lacking. I'd try to create a fighter with a little something on the side.

Battle Master is never a bad choice.

BTW - your prof bonus doesn't care if you MC, it is determined by total level, and I'd make sure to get to Fighter 5 before dipping anything.

[CTurbo]

You *CAN* make a low Wis Cleric, but I don't recommend it. Clerics work best with a high Wis. I'd hate to roll stats like that only to use all ASIs boosting a different stat.

I have played a low Cha Paladin that, unlike the Cleric, works really well. I played him as a holy spell less warrior that used all slots for smites.

[kbob]

You *CAN* make a low Wis Cleric, but I don't recommend it. Clerics work best with a high Wis. I'd hate to roll stats like that only to use all ASIs boosting a different stat.

I have played a low Cha Paladin that, unlike the Cleric, works really well. I played him as a holy spell less warrior that used all slots for smites.

The cleric level is just one. The few spells he would be casting would be buff spells. The reason for the dip would be to get Emboldening Bond from the peace domain. The spells are just bonus. Also, Peace gives an additional skill (insight, performance, or persuasion... I would probably go with insight if I don’t already have it).

He would be a fighter with that as a boost. The war wizard at 2 would give arcane deflection, which seems powerful for a melee build, and tactical wit, which seems helpful for anyone if they have an Int +mod.

[Sherlockpwns]

Blasting is one thing he wouldn't be doing. :smalltongue:

You got me! (though actually having a fireball on hand even with a low save is usually worth it, just when you have that giant room filled to the brim with kobold slingers that must die).


There are some great ideas on here. I have one of my own. I was thinking some kind of fighter with a 2 dip war wizard. I think their 2nd level ability would be great for melee build. Either that or take 1 dip in peace cleric or dip in both. The peace cleric just seems almost OP. I’ve seen on other posts people claiming that they ban it. I don’t hunk it’s THAT powerful to ban but it seems pretty powerful. (Actually thinking about dipping one level in it with my Paladin in a different game).
What do y’all think about that? If so should I go both or just one? I know going both pushes my ASI, prof bonus, and extra attack back. I would prob go PAM and get GWF later when my prof bonus goes up.
If i go that route I’m thinking EK or BM. What do y’all think?

My thesis on war wizard dip instead of a fighter dip is that it is not as good as just being a wizard. I think either is fine, but it all comes down to that scag cantrip vs. extra attack(s) and the fighter class features vs. spells.

As for peace cleric, you can put that into literally any build, that is just a decision if delaying your class progression by a level is worth the non-concentration super-bless. Again, you can go either way, but I think as you gain levels you'll slowly regret it. Using your action to give everyone a D4 for a while is a lot less exciting when you could have used that action to polymorph into a giant ape or T-rex, and you're already a minimum of 1 level behind by dipping, possibly 2-3. That said, it's a great pre-fight buff, so it has a place even at a higher level table.

So here's my best pro/con list for the decision.

Scag cantrip vs. Multiple Attack(s)

The short version of this story is regular attacks beat SCAG cantrip melee attacks unless they trigger the rider ability. So if the enemy moves with BB, you do more dmg with BB. Otherwise you basically end up behind by 5 potential dmg per extra attack. That's 5 dmg at level 5, 10 at level 11. This isn't taking into account spells, just your "default action."

Spells vs. Fighter Ability
Of course with EK, spells ARE fighter abilities, but it's pretty restrictive, especially if you're dipping 2-3 levels outside fighter. You wont even have level 2 spells until player level 9 or 10, which means your spell slots are just things like shield and absorb elements for most of your career - which are amazing spells so don't think I am underestimating them, but they're more like a battlemaster ability than a "DM has to do something about this" ability like Polymorph or Tenser's.

EK doesn't mix "as well" with PAM as BM, because by using your reaction to hit someone who moves into range, you're basically unable to cast reaction spells. That said, PAM is strong so it won't feel like a big deal.

BM is basically the most standard fighter in my mind. You get a bunch of things you can do per short rest, but they are all combat related. I like to think of them as mini-spells. I think BM starts stronger than spell equivalents, but falls behind later. In short, as the power of scag vs. attack moves in favor of more attacks, the class ability vs. spells moves in favor of the war wizard.

More importantly, and I really can't stress this enough, spells outside combat make the game more fun! The moment when you use a fog cloud to help you sneak into an area or save a party member by casting feather fall - all the extra +1s you can think of won't matter. And those are just level 1 spells ;).

Action Economy and You

The last item is super important, because I glossed over it in my original pitch - A fighter (with or without a war wizard / cleric dip) does more faster (Even before you consider action surge). If you need to cast a buff spell as you charge into combat, you're basically "one round behind" as far as damage per round goes. The shorter the fight, the more this matters. Further, if you lose concentration, this problem only gets worse. So, part of this "Which is better" debate comes down to how long your DM likes to make fights. If you're expecting a lot of short "3 rounds of combat" encounters, then the war wizard will be way behind. If it's more like 6+ round encounters, then the single round of downtime will be made up for the extra output of the spell.

In short here: Front line fighter with no setup time is better in short bursts. Casting is better in longer combats. Also obviously more short rests benefits the fighter, but you're not going to be burning 3+ spells per combat so it should be fine for both.


So what's my conclusion here:

I still would suggest War Wizard with a fighter dip over Fighter with a War Wizard dip. I think it will be more fun to play. Unless you are expecting mostly short encounters, it should do fine for combat and bring a lot of utility to the out of combat table. I don't really see the great value in the 2 levels of war wizard at all in fact. Putting your extra attack 2 levels behind (plus everything else, ASIs etc) just for a reaction to give +2 AC or +4 save to ONE strike against you isn't that powerful. Granted, it's not BAD, but it's not even as good as a single peace-cleric level because that first wizard level is just dead weight.

[HPisBS]

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BM is basically the most standard fighter in my mind. You get a bunch of things you can do per short rest, but they are all combat related...

More importantly, and I really can't stress this enough, spells outside combat make the game more fun! ...

Action Economy and You

The last item is super important, because I glossed over it in my original pitch - A fighter (with or without a war wizard / cleric dip) does more faster (Even before you consider action surge). If you need to cast a buff spell as you charge into combat, you're basically "one round behind" as far as damage per round goes. The shorter the fight, the more this matters. Further, if you lose concentration, this problem only gets worse....

In short here: Front line fighter with no setup time is better in short bursts. Casting is better in longer combats. Also obviously more short rests benefits the fighter, but you're not going to be burning 3+ spells per combat so it should be fine for both.
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Rune Knight kinda gets you all of those benefits with none of the tradeoffs. You'd get magical stuff to do in combat with your bonus action or reaction (or just when your weapon hits, in the case of Fire Rune), instead of your action like most casters, and you'd get the benefits of staying a pure Fighter. Out of combat, your runes still provide some utility, though obviously far less significant than actual utility spells.

Then, there's whatever shenanigans you could get up to by having a minute of advantage on Str checks as a Large guy 2-6 times per day. Better yet, as a large goliath with Powerful Build (so effectively Huge, before your munchkin caster buddy casts Enlarge on you) 2-6 times per day.

Best of all, none of it even requires concentration to maintain, so the hits you'd inevitably take on the front lines wouldn't disrupt anything (unless you get incapacitated somehow).

[WaroftheCrans]

I honestly think it's a really good statline for a Paladin if that appeals to you. If someone told you that you could get an 18 strength, 18 con and 14 charisma stat line post racials, I'd imagine you'd jump to a Paladin. And that's essentially that you're looking at, whether through half elf, v human with a half feat or basically any other tasha race.

If fighter is your desire, that's awesome too. I'd recommend Rune or eldritch knight. If you want some wizard, if recommend wizard with a fighter dip over fighter with a wizard dip. Remember, you can have the level 1 16 to casting stat that most full casters want.
These stats don't even remotely lock you into fighter or barbarian. I'd actually discourage barbarian because I think barbs are probably the worst class in 5e, and you want a highly optimised character. You've got plenty of options, and while dexterity builds and charisma full casters are probably a waste, everything else is open.