Best "mundane"

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm curious what people will come up with.

Give me your best warrior type build made with the following guidelines.

3.x

No PF
No Dragon, either magazine or Compendium
No initiator classes or prestige classes, the rest of ToB fine
No spellcasting, psionics, or invocation using classes
Nothing infamous (we all know about uberchargers, super mount, horizon tripper, etc)

Let's keep it practical. TO is fun in its own way but not what I want this exercise to be about.

I know it's a tight set of restrictions but without 'em what you get isn't exactly "mundane" in the sense of not magical or at least not overtly magical. Mid and high level characters aren't really mundane in the standard sense of the word regardless of what they are.

I also know the forum's general position on casters et al vs muggles. If all you have to say is how superior or inferior one of those broad catgegories is, save it. Hate to sound confrontational upfront like this but if I don't, then it -will- come up. It probably will anyway but at least I tried.

Bonus points if you make mention of particularly useful equipment for your build or you're doing something unexpected.

I hope this will blow up and be fun for everybody that participates. All the better if any of us can learn something we haven't seen before.

[Anthrowhale]

Is backstory spellcasting allowed? What about templates? Level 1-20, level 20, or something else?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is backstory spellcasting allowed?

I mean, nothing like a double PAO since that'd be against the request to keep it practical but otherwise, sure.


What about templates?

Oh absolutely. Race is part of every build and tends to be more important to non-casters anyway.


Level 1-20, level 20, or something else?

Level 1-20 is great but if you only want to show off a particular level snapshot or range where the build is most effective that's fine. LA buyoff too, if you need it. There's already enough restriction here without demanding an Iron Chef in the Playground style build table.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Half-Ogre (RoD) with LA bought off (UA).
Binder 3/ Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ whatever 1.
Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, Dungeoncrasher ACF, Dead Levels features.
Improved Binding, always bind Paimon.
EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Knock-Back feat in RoS. Knock-Down (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as well if using flaws.

With the War Hulk errata, Mighty Swing (4th) and Massive Swing (10th) occur on every attack you make, including AoOs, Whirlwind Attacks, Paimon's Dance of Death ability, etc. That means every time you make an attack, it's rolled against everything you can reach. If you Whirlwind Attack with ten enemies in reach, you could hit each of them ten times.

Preferably get the Feathered Wings graft and fly above your opponents so you can use Knock-Back to dungeoncrash them into the ground. Otherwise try to sweep everyone into a corner with a Dance of Death and then repeatedly dungeoncrash them into the wall. With Knock-Down they'll all be prone, if one tries to get up your AoO will dungeoncrash everyone into the wall again.

Cover all the necessary magic item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) effects and make your spiked chain amazing.

Take Leadership for a Kaorti (FF) Fiend of Possession (FF) cohort that always possesses you. Give it Dread Necromancer (HoH) 7 (it won't be casting spells) for a Ghostly Visage (FF) familiar that can also always possess your character. The Fiend of Possession can give you a +4 profane bonus to all your ability scores, or go into your weapon and give it +6 worth of added enhancement bonus or equivalent special abilities. The Ghostly Visage gives you immunity to all mind-affecting effects, and it can manifest over your face to cause your enemies to be paralyzed with fear if they look at you.

[Vizzerdrix]

Darn. The only two mundane type builds I have use Dragon compendium for some key parts. :smallfrown:

[Maat Mons]

Are you sure I can't convince you to change your mind on the "no ubercharging" restriction? What if I promise not to take Pounce? Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a Valorous weapon are just such a wonderful fit with this one Barbarian 20 idea I've been wanting to flesh out.

[Unavenger]

Give me your best warrior type build made with the following guidelines.

3.x

No PF
No Dragon, either magazine or Compendium
No initiator classes or prestige classes, the rest of ToB fine
No spellcasting, psionics, or invocation using classes
Nothing infamous (we all know about uberchargers, super mount, horizon tripper, etc)

(Emphasis mine).

20 levels in Binder or Truenamer. Binder is actually a real class, and even straight-down-the-line truenamer is going to outdo anyone trying to make a mundane character in actual good faith beyond the first few levels. Truenamer getting haste and other cute buffs as swift actions can make them "warrior type" enough to qualify (while also having enough utility stuff to make a fighter cry) and there's a whole mess of vestiges that can make a binder probably better at beating face than the fighter while again actually being good at the game.

This goes double if there's nobody in the party who's allowed to take spellcasting/psionics, because a truenamer pretending to be a severely underpowered favoured soul is going to be your go-to for healing.

Alternatively, probably some incarnum stuff that I'm not that familiar with.

...that's probably not in the spirit of things, but it's going to be the best you can get.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you sure I can't convince you to change your mind on the "no ubercharging" restriction? What if I promise not to take Pounce? Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a Valorous weapon are just such a wonderful fit with this one Barbarian 20 idea I've been wanting to flesh out.

Quite sure. Everybody's already seen uberchargers a million and one times. I want to see something -different- for a change.

I'd like to think I'm not the only one that feels that way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are monks mundane enough for you? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) Of course, that relies on very heavily enhancing your unarmed strike, and while it does have levels in some casting-type classes, as far as I can tell, they're only there for the bonus feats to DCFS out. A requirement for the build was also at least 17 levels of monk, but if that wasn't there, you could reduce it to monk 1 or 2, then get initiator levels and a dip in factotum (and Able Learner) for the rest of it. Also a dip in dungeon crasher fighter, pounce barbarian (using chaos monk), etc.

[Elves]

I know it's a tight set of restrictions but without 'em what you get isn't exactly "mundane" in the sense of not magical or at least not overtly magical.
How are [Ex] maneuvers not mundane?
How is Dragon Magazine not mundane?
How are trippers & uberchargers "infamous" as opposed to just being the bread and butter of effective melee characters?

Might be helpful to say what this is for, seems pretty vague.

[Kelb_Panthera]

(Emphasis mine).

20 levels in Binder or Truenamer. Binder is actually a real class, and even straight-down-the-line truenamer is going to outdo anyone trying to make a mundane character in actual good faith beyond the first few levels. Truenamer getting haste and other cute buffs as swift actions can make them "warrior type" enough to qualify (while also having enough utility stuff to make a fighter cry) and there's a whole mess of vestiges that can make a binder probably better at beating face than the fighter while again actually being good at the game.

This goes double if there's nobody in the party who's allowed to take spellcasting/psionics, because a truenamer pretending to be a severely underpowered favoured soul is going to be your go-to for healing.

Alternatively, probably some incarnum stuff that I'm not that familiar with.

...that's probably not in the spirit of things, but it's going to be the best you can get.

I covered this already.


I also know the forum's general position on casters et al vs muggles. If all you have to say is how superior or inferior one of those broad catgegories is, save it.


If you want to do something with binder or an incarnum class, be my guest but I specifically asked to avoid the muggle-hate.

I do rather like incarnum, personally. Proably my favorite subsystem, in fact. A straight totemist is a solid beater but he's going to run into the same problems as a TWF build but wose since his individual attacks tend to be even weaker than a TWFers and enhancing them is even more difficult than it is for a monk.

By all means, if you want to show off how a totemist might get around those issues, I'm all ears like I bound an Yrthak Mask.

[Unavenger]

How are [Ex] maneuvers not mundane?

I mean, I can answer that one. Iron Heart Surge may be the poster kid for stupid readings, but even a remotely reasonable interpretation of it is clearly magical, and there's another maneuver that allows you to throw your weapon and have it return to your hand, Mjolnir-style, as an (Ex) maneuver, just to take a couple of examples. Sure, there's a bunch which are clearly just "I hit this thing a little harder" but a few are overtly magical but just have an (Ex) tag stuck on for some reason.


I covered this already.

If you want to do something with binder or an incarnum class, be my guest but I specifically asked to avoid the muggle-hate.

I am aware that you said not to talk about how the broad categories are better or worse. That is why I did not, at all, imply that every spell-like-ability or whatever class is better than every true mundane; instead I listed the ones that clearly are and suggested broad build patterns that work for them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean, I can answer that one. Iron Heart Surge may be the poster kid for stupid readings, but even a remotely reasonable interpretation of it is clearly magical, and there's another maneuver that allows you to throw your weapon and have it return to your hand, Mjolnir-style, as an (Ex) maneuver, just to take a couple of examples. Sure, there's a bunch which are clearly just "I hit this thing a little harder" but a few are overtly magical but just have an (Ex) tag stuck on for some reason.



I am aware that you said not to talk about how the broad categories are better or worse. That is why I did not, at all, imply that every spell-like-ability or whatever class is better than every true mundane; instead I listed the ones that clearly are and suggested broad build patterns that work for them.Core is quite clear that [Ex] abilities are totally capable of breaking physics, and there are examples of [Ex] teleportation and ethereality and such for monsters outside of Core (in some examples, because they have an affinity for a certain plane and can draw energy from it, or their presence weakens the planar boundaries between themselves and their preferred plane).

[Ex] abilities are nonmagical, but they don't have to be realistic.

And how is overriding the negative effect affecting you with sheer willpower and chutzpah not [Ex] in nature? That's a huge thing in fiction, and it happens a lot in real life, too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How are [Ex] maneuvers not mundane?
How is Dragon Magazine not mundane?
How are trippers & uberchargers "infamous" as opposed to just being the bread and butter of effective melee characters?

Might be helpful to say what this is for, seems pretty vague.

I may have phrased that poorly.

The idea here is to get something -different- from what you get in every "help me build my <warrior>" thread because it's always the exact same handful of things: "play a warblad/swordsage/crusader instead, get pounce + leap attack + shocktrooper, gish it up" or, the one that bugs me the most, "play a caster instead, mundanes suck."

To answer your questions, specifically:

Not all maneuvers are EX and I also didn't ban them anyway. I banned the classes and explicitly greenlit the rest of the book: feats, items, maneuvers, even the bloodstorm blade is still up.
Dragon magazine is just a common ban for these kind of exercises. I added the compendium because it's just magazine content that's been repackaged.
I didn't say "chargers and trippers" I said "ubercharger and horizon tripper" They're famous builds or at least build patterns we've all seen a million times.

As for being vague, I prefer to think of it as broad. I intentionally cast a wide net to see what I'd dredge up. If I wanted something specific, I'd have been more specific.

[Elves]

I mean, I can answer that one. Iron Heart Surge may be the poster kid for stupid readings, but even a remotely reasonable interpretation of it is clearly magical, and there's another maneuver that allows you to throw your weapon and have it return to your hand, Mjolnir-style, as an (Ex) maneuver, just to take a couple of examples. Sure, there's a bunch which are clearly just "I hit this thing a little harder" but a few are overtly magical but just have an (Ex) tag stuck on for some reason.
A mid level human fighter can be naturally stronger than a gorilla. Is that magic too? The game draws a line between superhuman and actually magical. Ex vs Su/Sp is the only way to get a consensus on what constitutes "muggle".

[rrwoods]

How are [Ex] maneuvers not mundane?
How is Dragon Magazine not mundane?
How are trippers & uberchargers "infamous" as opposed to just being the bread and butter of effective melee characters?

Might be helpful to say what this is for, seems pretty vague.

It seems to me that it's less about them being "not mundane" so much as wanting to see if there's un(der)explored territory outside these well-trodden categories.

[Unavenger]

[Ex] abilities are nonmagical, but they don't have to be realistic.

I am aware. I was explaining why someone could easily consider that to preclude them from being mundane in a literal sense because they are not in fact mundane in a literal sense.


A mid level human fighter can be naturally stronger than a gorilla. Is that magic too? The game draws a line between superhuman and actually magical. Ex vs Su/Sp is the only way to get a consensus on what constitutes "muggle".

Well it is only a consensus if you ignore all the people who say that the line should not be that, which is to say that it is a consensus apart from the fact that it is not in fact a consensus.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I am aware. I was explaining why someone could easily consider that to preclude them from being mundane in a literal sense because they are not in fact mundane in a literal sense."Mundane" in D&D isn't the same as "mundane" in normal usage, typically; otherwise, everyone would be under level 6 and be nonmagical NPC classes who specialize in farming, or whatever.

[Unavenger]

"Mundane" in D&D isn't the same as "mundane" in normal usage, typically.

You seem to be under the impression that I was not aware of this, either. I am aware that there are multiple in-use definitions, only one of which is the standard one, and only one of which is the (Ex)/(Na) vs (Su)/(Sp)/(Ps) split, with many others inbetween and beyond, including those which recognise the (categorically obvious) difference between outdoing to-date human performance in believable ways and performing feats of obvious, overt magic.

(Your conclusion is clearly faulty as people who have fought armies and lived, or regularly wrestle bears, or have survived being bitten in the head by a shark which I can only suppose is a high-damage critical hit, all of which suggest at least medium levels.)

[Elves]

So maybe Kelb can clarify, is the idea here that the character should be entirely Ex? No supernatural or magical abilities at all?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am aware that you said not to talk about how the broad categories are better or worse. That is why I did not, at all, imply that every spell-like-ability or whatever class is better than every true mundane; instead I listed the ones that clearly are and suggested broad build patterns that work for them.

You didn't say "this category is superior" but you certainly said "this category is inferior" which isn't really functionally different.

As for binder 20 being clearly better than all "true mundanes," that's an awfully tall claim to just throw down without at least defining "true mundane." I'd hazard that what you mean is builds with -no- SLA or SU abilities whatsoever but do tell.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, an old competition build of mine comes very close to meeting those requirements.

Azoth, The Raven's Shadow (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24080559&postcount=51)
Halfling Monk 9/ Rogue 10/ Warblade 1
(Actual build order is in the link)

The Warblade is mostly in there in case you can't get your hands on a Sparring Dummy of the Master; even without that, it can be dropped from the build without hurting it too badly.

It does use the Mercurial Strike feat (from Dragon Compendium); losing that hurts his high level options.

The basic premise is combining Sneak Attack, Skirmish (via Halfling Monk RSL), and Iaijutsu Focus with the Dark Moon Disciple Monk ACF for permanent stealth (enemies that can't perceive you are automatically flat-footed against your attacks). Throw in a Sparring Dummy of the Master to turn your 5ft steps into 10ft steps and you can now trivially activate all three sources of bonus damage on every attack in your full attack.

There are a bunch of other substitution levels and ACFs supporting that basic idea. Halfling Rogue RSL gives you an extra d6 of SA with thrown weapons. Swift Ambusher makes your Rogue levels count as Scout levels for progressing Skirmish. Invisible Fist gives you an early source of invisibility, and later blink at will. Spell Reflection reflects enemy touch attacks back at them, and your touch AC is already fantastic. Penetrating Strike and Distracting Attack give you options against the SA immune (you do still lose Skirmish damage, but Iaijutsu Focus isn't precision damage and affects everything).

A powerful and flexible build from 1-20. Losing Warblade and Mercurial Strike (used along with Robilar's Gambit to punish foes that hit you with SA and Iaijutsu Focus) hurts it a little at high level, but certainly doesn't cripple it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So maybe Kelb can clarify, is the idea here that the character should be entirely Ex? No supernatural or magical abilities at all?

I think I got lost in the shuffle. I did clarify both what I was looking for and even invited builds that heavily feature incarnum which is far from non-magical.

I'll repeat myself though:

The goal is exactly this:


It seems to me that it's less about them being "not mundane" so much as wanting to see if there's un(der)explored territory outside these well-trodden categories.

Some supernatural or even spell-like abilities are fine. Engaging with the binding and incarnum subsystems is no problem at all either.

It's not really in the spirit of things but if you can find a way to make a truenamer based warrior, I'll give you an internet cookie.

[Unavenger]

You didn't say "this category is superior" but you certainly said "this category is inferior" which isn't really functionally different.

As for binder 20 being clearly better than all "true mundanes," that's an awfully tall claim to just throw down without at least defining "true mundane." I'd hazard that what you mean is builds with -no- SLA or SU abilities whatsoever but do tell.

If you cannot see the difference - functional or otherwise - between "I like this build, I think it's better than [category]" and "I think [category1] is better than [category2] then I do not know how to explain it.

Besides, I haven't been doing much but defining mundane since I got here since apparently people are unwilling to let, say, Mjolnir being magical go without objection, so really, I'm not sure I could elucidate what I do mean any further without another few people popping up to disagree.


It's not really in the spirit of things but if you can find a way to make a truenamer based warrior, I'll give you an internet cookie.

See, this is something I can help you with, though. Give me a bit.

[Maat Mons]

How do you feel about spell-like abilities that don't come from invocation-using classes? Factotum can get SLAs of up to 7th level. Dragonmarks can also allow to a bunch of SLAs. There are also a handful of templates that give SLAs. Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, and Phrenic are the ones that spring to mind.

How do you work LA buyoff in conjunction with savage progressions?

Which of these would you consider "infamous?"

Ghost MotUH
Goliath Bloodstorm Blade
Grell Kensai
Haunt Shift
Justiciar
Monk with Colossal Fists
Swift Hunter
TWF Sneak Attack
Whirlpounce Barbarian
Wildshape Spellless Ranger

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you feel about spell-like abilities that don't come from invocation-using classes?

Those are fine for the most part.


Factotum can get SLAs of up to 7th level.

I'mma give it a side-eye but I'll allow it.


Dragonmarks can also allow to a bunch of SLAs. There are also a handful of templates that give SLAs. Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, and Phrenic are the ones that spring to mind.

Those are all good.


How do you work LA buyoff in conjunction with savage progressions?

Honestly hadn't considered it. Let's go with you can buy off LA 3 levels after you pick it up through a savage progression.


Which of these would you consider "infamous?"

Ghost MotUH
Goliath Bloodstorm Blade
Grell Kensai
Haunt Shift
Justiciar
Monk with Colossal Fists
Swift Hunter
TWF Sneak Attack
Whirlpounce Barbarian
Wildshape Spellless Ranger


Struck through what to avoid.

[Unavenger]

See, this is something I can help you with, though. Give me a bit.

So, I am really meant to be working, so this is going to be just a quick summary, but the build goes something like this: first, play an illumian with the sigils that buff your int (for truespeak and all your knowledges) and dex (for initiative) checks and skill checks. Then, take skill focus truespeak, knowledge devotion, item familiar, quicken utterance, extend utterance, and other feats that make you good at fighting.

For evolving mind utterances, depending on starting level you might need minor word of nurturing for the early healing but otherwise you want inertia surge to lock enemies down with no save and universal aptitude because it's ridiculous. For the second-level ones you have a decent choice. Archer's eye is ridiculous once you get fog spells, speed of the zephyr allows you to just run up a tree or something and shoot enemies while they try to climb up, hidden truth means that you get a +10 to your roll to see how pumped all your attack and damage rolls are, temporal twist is an extra attack but it doesn't stack with haste so it's probably not worth it if you see yourself reaching sixth level, and this is as good a level as any to pick up a word of nurturing if you haven't yet. For thirds, you're taking haste/slow and fly/earthbind, I don't care, you're taking haste/slow and fly/earthbind (greater speed of the zephyr and seek the sky). I suggest see invisibility/invisibility (vision sharpened) and energy negation as your other two but it's yet another decent level for the healing utterance. For fourths, you have the dispel that never fails in spell rebirth, and if you're pretending to be the party's healer than breath of cleansing is... an utterance, and so is word of bolstering. There's a couple of mage-boosting ones if you have a real caster, and another healing one, naturally. For fifths, you're almost certainly taking greater energy negation and greater seek the sky, then whatever. Essence of lifespark is another bargain-bin-cleric option. Finally, for sixths, you're going to take greater knight's puissance to push you up to a total of +11 attack/+10 damage with two utterances and a devotion, and probably either ether reforged so you can no-save plane shift anything you can't beat up normally, or mystic rampart for the DR 5/- and +5 to all saves. It shouldn't matter what you take third because you're a level 20 truenamer at this point.

For crafted tool this ain't hard: you're taking weapon, analyse, rebuild, transmute, catalyst, as all truenamers should. Enjoy your dubious infinite-use item trick if your DM will allow it, and for god's sake nobody @ me about whether this one technically works or not.

Finally, perfected map you want Fog from the Void (this is a ridiculous combo with Archer's Eye which lets you completely ignore most of the downsides and I assume that's a mistake), probably speak rock to mud but meh, master the four winds (tornadoes are so good I think that Control Winds in general, and this utterance in specific, are both a mistake) and of course conjunctive gate. Fellas, is it mundane to call a solar angel to beat your enemies up for you?



So, in order to qualify as "Warrior-like" you're doing one of two things. One is "Shoot things that either can't see you or can't reach you", which is either speed of the zephyr+nearby climbable object+bow or seek the sky+bow or fog from the void+archer's eye+bow or potentially even just quickened or extended reversed inertia surge+bow. The other is "I have so many attacks, with so much bonus damage, you're not going to be able to stop me killing your face off", which is probably either a rapid shot or TWF build, with haste and other utterances to taste. At level 9, the level you get quicken utterance, you can be walking around with a passive Hidden Truth on you, then make the knowledge check at around a +30ish as you enter combat, get +5 to attack and damage, and then haste yourself and rattle off three attacks plue however many your feats are giving you with a +6 to attack +5 to damage. I don't really rate this strat, since "Like thirty damage or whatever" is more "Ehh, that's okay" than "Wow that's so much damage" and it needs a lot more work to get it much better than that, so you're better off throwing down with CC effects that normies can't keep up with.

Oh, for what it's worth, every single one of your utterances that can buff you can buff an ally instead (and from level 17, you can buff any number of creatures of the same type), so that's also a neat backup option I guess, particularly if you have some spare swift actions.

When you're not making yourself completely untargetable and shooting people out of the mists, you can casually play backup rogue with a +5 to all skills, +2 to all int and dex skills and a +level/3 to a bunch of rogue-related skills (you get a couple of free recitations; of the four you can choose from, one is basically useless and two are very niche so I suggest the one that buffs your skills and then choose whether you want to be able to heal poison or disease), and casually play cleric with some healing - admittedly, much of which comes online very late - and you have a whole suite of other stuff that isn't just combat which I bet you anything is what most of these builds will fall down on. Flying and the ability to make your allies do the same is *checks* good, and I refuse to believe that "the same time the sorcerer gets it" is anything other than a reasonable time for that to come online. As well as "I practically have actual spellcasting at this point", there are a couple of things that you can do that are just kinda cute like un-dispelling spells and un-breaking items, and eventually you get Summon Tornado and then Call Extraplanar Whatever (actual names of abilities may vary) and then you win the game by drowning the entirety of the observable universe in however many of whatever kind of gribbly CR-up-to-40 beasties you feel like on that day.

...There is a reason I said this wasn't really in the spirit of things.

[Particle_Man]

I won’t say it is the best build but I would want to try a character with no regular base classes.

So half orc paragon 3/orc paragon 3/eye of gruumsh 10/exotic weapon master 3 (orcish double axe, naturally). That gets me to 19. Not sure what after that which would continue the theme.

[Fizban]

By asking for "best," you imply competition, which results in quibbling about what exactly counts as an "ubercharger," etc.

If what you want are coordinated mundane warrior builds that don't use the usual stuff, well that's still vague enough to be offputting. You've explicitly "allowed" TWF Sneak Attack, yet I find that just as much, if not even more tiring than uberchargers: at least ubercharging is a specific combination of feats that can be individually and specifially nerfed, where the ubiquity of TWF rogues comes from them being a PHB class feature and feat that functions 90% the same for every character. If you want suggestions that aren't common, why leave that in?

As for coordinated mundane builds that aren't "forum usual," I posted this Fighter/Barb build in a "what are your favorite fighter builds?" thread:


Barbarian 2/Fighter 18
Rage 1/day, fast movement, uncanny dodge

1st: Block Arrow (rage, fast movement)
2nd (uncanny dodge)
3rd: Close-Quarters Fighting, B1 Parrying Shield
4th: B2 Weapon Focus
5th
6th: Quick Recovery, B3 Weapon Specialization
7th
8th: B4 Combat Reflexes
9th: Enduring Life
10th: B5 [S]Greater Weapon Focus Weapon Mastery
11th
12th: Expert Tactician Greater Weapon Focus, B6 Greater Weapon Specialization
13th
14th: B7 Combat Expertise*
15th: Overwhelming Assault
16th: B8 Defensive Sweep
17th
18th: Extra Rage, B9 Blind Fight
20th: B10 Weapon Supremacy

Alternatively, Warblade 2 instead of Barbarian 2 for weapon aptitude and a couple manuevers, but once you involve manuevers the pressure to just go full initiator is strong and you usually need at least one other feat to enable a different style. I'd like to cram Hold the Line in there as well. Leaving many of the later feats as generic stuff you might want earlier or decide you don't need is partially intentional, since it allows room to switch them around as needed as you see how the campaign runs. Locking yourself into a build that doesn't allow choices on level up, why bother leveling?

The following feats have no level based prerequisites and can be rearranged as desired (not counting ability scores): Blind Fight, Block Arrow, Close-Quarters Fighting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (as long as it's before Expert Tactician), and Parrying Shield.

The following feats have no level based prerequisites but are also not fighter feats: Enduring Life, Quick Recovery, Extra Rage.

Block Arrow is the throwaway feat, can be dropped to squeeze defenses sooner or pick up an exotic proficiency or improved buckler defense, but if actually playing from 1st the ability to just say no to arrow hits when mooks with bows are dangerous should be awesome. Race is left open, allowing whatever race or a human bonus feat without losing Block Arrow. Weapon is relatively open. Scimitar as-is for crit range to go with that attack bonus, longsword if expecting frequent enlargement, or a longspear or chain weapon can be squeezed in (by cramming Improved Buckler Defense). Halfspear with Quick Draw allows for a surprisingly decent mid-range attack, or main rapier with javelins. Proper selection of magic items for AC and covering weaknesses as always, with Close-Quarters Fighting, Quick Recovery, and Enduring life letting you wait until you really need to activate your immunities/get out of jail effects until absolutely necessary.

What does this guy do? He participates in combat by hitting things accurately for damage while resisting a number of common special attacks at all times (arrows, grappling, low AB touch attacks, stun, daze, and negative levels). All of his natural abilities stack with buffs, giving him a higher ceiling than people who rely on buffs to function, and basic attacks can't be foiled by trip/grapple/bullrush immunity. While he lacks innate lockdown abilities to trigger Defensive Sweep/Overwhelming assault, these still allow him to exploit foes locked down by his allies' much more efficient magical methods of lockdown (and a cheap item or two can prevent 5' steps enough to power Defensive Sweep in a slug match).

*Combat Expertise would be great earlier as well, but requires int you might not be able to afford and wants more attack bonus to burn. By 14th you can more easily afford to boost int, while attack bonuses are getting high enough you might want be hurting for another source of AC.
The feats might be one off, it's supposed to have weapon mastery but got mucked up between edits (I tried to keep it human or non-human, but looks like I overbudgeted before assigning the exact order) [Edit: fixed by dumping Expert Tactician, though I maintain it's an interesting feat to try], but you get the idea. A quality build with Fighter for always-on Weapon Mastery line, with the extras from Barbarian dip for best of both worlds, and a selection of defensive feats that can be swapped around to match the campaign.

Of course, since my standard response to "What Fighter build?" is always "The game expects Weapon Specialization," you might consider that too common as well.


The other build I like is a gimmick build that requires a slight editing fix to use a javelin tactical feat (which removes all the javelin penalties anyway) from Drow of the Underdark with shortspears instead, and Hurling Charge from Mini's Handbook. Then you go Ranged Weapon Mastery to boost shortspears, and use basically the progenitor of all weapons in melee, at range, with extra attacks on charge, etc. With a shield because shields. I haven't done this one up in detail 'cause it takes a lot of feats and I don't like having no options.

[Zaile]

Hmm, not sure about "best," but I like covering a few bases without being a 1-trick pony like charger.

I'm working on a focused melee build, dipping to get the most abilities out of each class, but it uses Cloistered Cleric, easily modified for the rules here though with a rogue dip. So far here is what the first 6 levels look like:

Stat priorities: Str > Con > Int/Dex > Wis/Cha

Rogue 1 - Sneak attack dice, massive skill points and Trapfinding. Max Spot, Search, Tumble, D. Device, UMD and disperse the rest as you see fit.
Barbarian 1 - Lion totem for Pounce, Whirling Frenzy
Barbarian 2 - Wolf spirit totem for Improved Trip, take Knockdown feat
Monk 2 - 2 more bonus feats (Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes), Evasion, and d6 unarmed damage
Fighter 1 to get another feat you need and heavy armor (though Evasion limits you to light)


Feats to make it better: Educated or Able learner feat + Knowledge devotion, Power Attack and, of course, Leap Attack
Weapon is Falchion for the massive crit range

At this point you only lose 1 BAB if using fractional (+3 from full, +2.5 from 3/4 classes). You have a guaranteed +1/+2 on all attacks and damage (K. Devotion), You can trip, grapple, charge, pounce and fight unarmed pretty well. You have an additional attack on full-attack from Frenzy and Flurry, evasion, and very good saves. You also have enough skills and skill points to cover scouting/Trapfinding and at least one more out-of-combat role.

Prestige classes:
Rogue/Utility PRCs
Fighter/Barb PRCs for damage
Fist of the Forest is nice here, but it has Su abilities (Feral Trance AKA rage, magic unarmed strikes and Scent)

Templates:
Mineral Warrior template for DR 8/Adamant
Half-X or Were templates
Draconic Creature for 2 claw secondary attacks and +6 stats with no negatives

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fist of the Forest is nice here, but it has Su abilities (Feral Trance AKA rage, magic unarmed strikes and Scent)

Not that they're banned for this exercise but if you're trying to avoid SUs you're going to have to drop barbarian's pounce. All of the spirit totem benefits are SU. CC page 46, first paragraph of "Benefits:" under spiritual totem.

A lot of people miss that. :smalltongue:

[Zaile]

Not that they're banned for this exercise but if you're trying to avoid SUs you're going to have to drop barbarian's pounce. All of the spirit totem benefits are SU. CC page 46, first paragraph of "Benefits:" under spiritual totem.

A lot of people miss that. :smalltongue:

Wow, I did miss that. I hadn't actually looked at the book in quite a while. Since they're not banned, I stand with that build. I think it's a solid base with a lot of flexibility at mid-high levels.

I'd also add WildShape Ranger (spell-less version) into Master of Many Forms 7+. Trade the Animal companion for Urban Companion familiar. It's a build I've always wanted to play, but never got the chance.

[Gruftzwerg]

No initiator classes or prestige classes, the rest of ToB fine


Are prestige classes overall to avoid or only those initiator PRCs from ToB?

Only mundane base classes is a bit limiting..^^

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are prestige classes overall to avoid or only those initiator PRCs from ToB?

Only mundane base classes is a bit limiting..^^

Just the prestige classes in ToB that actually grant maneuvers. Bloodstorm blade is fine as are all prestige classes from elsewhere that don't grant spellcasting or something like it.

[Particle_Man]

Oh, another mundane is pretty much cribbing from Unearthed Arcana: Take the fighter but switch out fighter bonus feats for sneak attack. Also take the Thug variant. Take one level of human paragon at the beginning, mainly because if you are going to have "Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand" as class skills, you might as well add Sense Motive to complete the set. So now you have +19 BAB, +10d6 sneak attack, and some interesting "city/face" skills". Maybe dual wield a couple of kusari-gama for fun (and reach!). Get the Adaptable Flanker feat and either self-flank (if your DM is nice) or at least have more flanking options (if your DM is stingy).

It won't be "killer optimal" but it could be fun!

[liquidformat]

Well my go to for this type of thing is Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Champion of the Wild Predator Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10 however, since wild shape is apparently out I will go with the following:

Shifter (Longtooth) Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Weretouched Master 5 (prefer pre errata for obvious reasons)/Frostrager 5/Thayan Gladiator 2 will have to sit down and go through feat choices. Feral is an interesting choice here but the hit to int is an issue.

Are flaws allowed?

[Gruftzwerg]

Just the prestige classes in ToB that actually grant maneuvers. Bloodstorm blade is fine as are all prestige classes from elsewhere that don't grant spellcasting or something like it.

In that chase, how about a dual double handcrossbow build. My El Mariachi build could be easily taken as base blueprint for most part of the build:

Deepwyrm Half-Drow
Fighter 5 / Rogue 1 / Deepwood Sniper 7 / Fighter 7

The build gets 14 feat. (without Human/flaws)

But we need 17 feats: (3 from Magic Items)

TWF
Imp TWF (from "Gloves of the Balanced Hand")
Greater TWF
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Hand Crossbow Focus
Crossbow Sniper
Martial Study (as requirement for)
Martial Stance: Blood in the Water
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double crossbows)
Weapon Specialization (Double Hand-Crossbow)
Ranged Weapon Mastery: (Piercing)
Dead Eye
Weapon Focus (light mace)
Lightning Mace
Far Shot (from "Horizon Googles")
Combat Reflexes (from "Serpent Armor")

Note: feats are not ordered by lvl / requirements /usefulness! You need to figure that out yourself ;)

Gloves of Storing are needed to reload both double crossbows as free action (see El Mariachi build for explanation).

Collar of Perpetual Attendance gives you Unseen Servant at will. Buy lots of Marbles and let em deploy em for you in combat under your enemies. This helps to make em flat-footed and thus increases the DEX dmg modifier up to 2.5x.


Finally get 2:
+1, Aptitude (+1), Splitting (+3), Exit Wound(+2), Force (+3) Double Handcrossbows (total price +10)


The build can obtain up to 9 regular attacks per turn (5 mainhand and 4 offhand).

Crits are the main focus of the build (17-20/x4). The "Blood in the Water" stance gives a stacking and duration refreshing (1minute) +1 attack and damage bonus for each crit. Lighting Mace and Aptitude Weapon give extra attacks on crits.

And if that ain't crazy enough by itself, Splitting and Exit Wound enable you to hit and crit even more per round, further increasing the synergy of the build.

Annihilate entire armies of enemies within a few rounds with your scary dual double hand-crossbows.

May I introduce: Lucky Luke, the man the reloads faster as his shadow :smallbiggrin:

edit: forgot to mention the "Drow Fighter Racial Substitution Level" at first level to get Hit and Run Fighter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are flaws allowed?

I won't outright ban 'em but it's a lot more impressive if you can do without.

[nedz]

The Tycoon
Expert 20 specialising in high finance — just hire any Wizards, Clerics etc. that you need.

The Emperor
Aristocrat 20 — you don't need to buy people if you own them already.
Maybe add in some levels of those special Aristocrat only PrCs :smallsmile:

The Vizier
Standard, well mundane, Diplomancer — you can control both of the above.

Are these mundane enough ?

I don't see many skill based builds here but Rogues and Scouts can solve many challenges even though they are not the best at problems requiring a big stick, but some stick can be handy.
Perhaps a flying Swift Hunter using Flyby attack ?
So either a Raptorian or Draconic for the wings.
Have 9 wisdom, dip Cleric for two domain granted powers (Travel for FoM) and TU/RU to power devotion feats - Travel, obviously, Healing (maybe) — no spells here.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I had a character built a long time ago for a level 20 OS that finally never was played. I'm not sure it could be considered mundane, but it goes around scratching people with 'yes' number of attacks rather than casting spells so I think it fits.


Venerable Star Elf half-fey (LA+2) Monk (Sleeping Tiger) 2, Fighter 2, Paladin of Tyranny 2, Pious Templar, Battle Dancer 1, Soul eater 10 (you are a fey and bare hands count as natural weapons)

Feats and relevant class features:
Monk : Improved unarmed strike, Improved initiative, Evasion, Weapon Finesse
Paladin: Divine Grace (Cha to Saves)
Fighter: Impulsive (from Nyambe: African Adventure, a 3rd party 3.0 book, allows you to pounce on the first round of combat. If you don't want a charger, removing it doesn't change much the build, but it is nice, especially with slippers of battledancing), Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
Dancer: Cha to AC
Templar: Mettle
Ioun stone: Alertness
Level 18 Character: Quicken SLA (Domination), Life drain, Improved energy drain, Improved Domination (Dungeon 128, 21 Cha, 18 Intimidation, Dominate Person SLA can dominate monsters instead), Snap Kick, 2 more

Notable items and permanent or semi-permanent spells: Sparring dummy of the master (10ft step instead of 5), Slippers of Battle Dancing (if moved 10 ft, add Cha to-hit),

Necklace of natural weapon (blindsighted, whatever floats your boat), Greater Magic Fang+5, Gauntlets of ghost fighting, Battle Belt (especially if Impulsive is banned)

Shirt of the leech (You shall not cast restoration in my presence), ring of Freedom of movement.

Item of summon monster I 1/day, Phylactery of change.

Wands of Greater Humanoid Essence and of Spark of Life (none shall be immune to energy drain).

Goal of the character
You optimize Charisma as much as possible (items not shown but assume I have +6 and as many tomes of charisma as I can) then use the charisma for everything else. The sparring dummy allow you to still be able to full attack while moving for the Slippers to work. But the real kick of the build (apart from the actual snap kick, I mean) is the fact that you are a venerable elf with ****ty physical stats, but that every morning, you can summon one outsider with your item of summon monster, drain its energy, get all the Soul Eater bonuses for one day, then use phylactery of change to become an avoral, and be vastly stronger and less fragile. At the start of a fight, you probably go first with your 28 Dex and +6 init, charge and full attack, inflict 12 negative levels, and gain +12 to almost all rolls and to saves, then take steps and repeat each turn while healing yourself with Life drain.

And if something is affected by mental effects and not by energy drain, you can Dominate it with the half-fey template and Improved Domination (with my initial build, the save DC of Quickened Domination was 31).

The real weakness here is constructs and other things unaffected by energy drain and mental effects. You should keep a bag of rats with you at all times to allow you to drain something and increase all your rolls bit by bit, until you can overcome whatever is in your path or approach enough to hit them with your wands without risking too much.

[DMVerdandi]

I like the main idea of dude's charisma build, this is how I would do my own build.

Half elf necropolitan[Evolved undead template]

Savant 1/Berserker Strength-Lion totem spirit barbarian 1/Marshal 1/paladin of slaughter [Holy warrior] 3/Fighter 1/Battle dancer 13

Take flaws at first level so that you can get
Able Learner
Human Heritage
Elf Dilletante
Nymph's Kiss

Spend other feats gaining
Versatile Unarmed strike
Superior Unarmed strike
Power Attack

Savant gets you all skills as class skills and the ability to swap your skills for someone elses as aid, barbarian gets you pounce and a rage mechanic that can be used any time you get too low in health, marshal gets you charisma modifier to charge attacks, paladin of slaughter gets you charisma to all saves, fighter is for intimidating strike feat, and battle dancer is for unarmed goodness and charisma to AC. Enchant some gauntlets.

You should be a well rounded all rounder with immunities out the wazoo, you are HEAVILY charisma sad, non-dependent on items,need no food, water or sleep,passively heal by yourself, and roid out when you get too close to death. And you smack people until they fear you.
Fluff monk's robe as red shirt, and battle slippers as black air force 1's






this is somewhat of an anti-monk. Well knowledgable and well read, but instead of peace, you choose violence.Every, single, day.

A fist that brings death.

[alexa, play killing moon]

[Beni-Kujaku]

I like the main idea of dude's charisma build, this is how I would do my own build.

Half elf necropolitan[Evolved undead template]

Savant 1/Berserker Strength-Lion totem spirit barbarian 1/Marshal 1/paladin of slaughter [Holy warrior] 3/Fighter 1/Battle dancer 13


I'm... Not sure where you want to go with this. Savant and some of your feats go toward a skillmonkey, trying to optimize the number of skill points you get; but then you have paladin and marshal, plus how you described the build, that make me think you want to be more charisma-based than int-based (which would give you way less skill), but then again fighter, barbarian and marshal that push towards a Strength build, since there is no indication of anything that gives you bonuses on attack or damage rolls linked to Charisma (except when charging, and only damage). And the cherry on top, you wanna play a necropolitan (why? I know it has good immunities but you are level 20, those can be replicated with magic items) which make you lose Constitution on a melee character and make you vulnerable to turning. That is... less than optimal.
And on top of that you say you are taking 4 flaws (that is a heck of a lot of flaws when you don't really need to, since you should already have 8 feats with the Fighter bonus feat) which give you feats that are, quite honestly, awful. Nymph's kiss is good, since you want more skill points, but you're already supposed to have maxed-out charisma, that +2 bonus on some skills will not help you much (it won't be useable with the Savant's ability to make checks for others); Human Heritage takes a feat just to qualify for Able Learner, which in itself is pretty bad when you don't have that many skill points to begin with (most of your classes are 4+int, and you're supposedly not int-centered); Elf dilettante is just plain bad (you generally won't use many untrained skills, and instead let them to the party member that has ranks in the skill); why do you use Versatile Unarmed Strike at all? Really, almost no monster has DR/bludgeoning or slashing at high level; the bonus of Improved Unarmed Strike is very minor compared to the investment (in most cases it is +1 damage per strike, no more); and Power Attack does not work as well at all with unarmed strike as it does with 2-handed weapons.

Plus the fact that you can't take several of your feats because you aren't a human-descended race, so no Human Heritage, and no Able Learner, and no Dilettante, that the last two levels of paladin give you almost nothing of use, the last level of dancer really gives you absolutely nothing, that you have Pounce twice, that the evolved undead gives you nothing interesting, except fast healing, that is good but far from incredible, and that you are far from SAD with all the Int and Str you'll need to make this do at least what it is supposed to do semi-decently...




I'm sorry if this was meant as some sort of early April Fool's Joke, but as it is now, this is probably one of the best build to demonstrate that putting everything that seems nice in a build without thinking of the consequences and synergies isn't something to do.

[The_Jette]

Take a human monk up to level 8. At this point die and be reincarnated as an orc. Automatic +4 racial to strength without taking any of the racial penalties, because they're all in mental stats and you get to keep your original mental stats. Then, keep leveling up as a monk. Be a follower of Ilmater so that you can become a chosen of ilmater and gain access to the Suffering and Renewal domains (never use them). Also, don't gain +2 Con and Wis, and +4 Cha for being chosen. Just because you're the Chosen of Ilmater doesn't mean that you get the benefits. You won't even have to get past level 12 because you're that powerful.

Disagree? Well, according to my old DM there's nothing more powerful than this because this build is just too powerful, even with no magic items, which my DM wasn't willing to give to the group anyways.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Playing a perfect skillmonkey is something interesting, though. I will try to do it here.

Venerable Human Rogue 2, Savant 2, Factotum 3, Chameleon 2, Swashbuckler 3?, Uncanny Trickster 3, Incarnate 1, Fortune's friend 4

Feats:
Able Learner, Nymph's kiss, Combat Expertise, Raptor School, Undead Empathy (who needs turn Undead when you can convince undead), Void Use feats?, Magic nature appraisal (complete adventurer)
Floating feat: probably Skill focus (something), according to what you most need that day.
Sly Fortune, Unbelievable luck, Make your own luck


Standard of heroism, Lime Ioun Stone, Stone of good luck, object of at-will Divine Insight CL 10

Lots of skills, and some things to do with them. But let's be honest, this won't do much in combat.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Does horrible freakish monstrosity count as "mundane" for this?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does horrible freakish monstrosity count as "mundane" for this?

Long as it follows the guidelines I've layed down, sure.

[DMVerdandi]

I'm... Not sure where you want to go with this. Savant and some of your feats go toward a skillmonkey, trying to optimize the number of skill points you get; but then you have paladin and marshal, plus how you described the build, that make me think you want to be more charisma-based than int-based (which would give you way less skill), but then again fighter, barbarian and marshal that push towards a Strength build, since there is no indication of anything that gives you bonuses on attack or damage rolls linked to Charisma (except when charging, and only damage).[/SPOILER]
The point of it is kind of to be an allrounder. It's not supposed to be completely optimal, and honestly, didn't really have the time for true synergy. It's just kind of a face punching face.


[QUOTE]
And the cherry on top, you wanna play a necropolitan (why? I know it has good immunities but you are level 20, those can be replicated with magic items) which make you lose Constitution on a melee character and make you vulnerable to turning. That is... less than optimal.
The point of it is to kind of not be beholden to magic items. This is a mundane character. To ME? Mundane MEANS mundane. As few magic items as possible. I gave him 2-3 really, but naked this guy isn't bad at all. Much of the things they can do can be done if they were to not have any magic items at all.


And on top of that you say you are taking 4 flaws (that is a heck of a lot of flaws when you don't really need to, since you should already have 8 feats with the Fighter bonus feat) which give you feats that are, quite honestly, awful. Nymph's kiss is good, since you want more skill points, but you're already supposed to have maxed-out charisma, that +2 bonus on some skills will not help you much (it won't be useable with the Savant's ability to make checks for others); Human Heritage takes a feat just to qualify for Able Learner, which in itself is pretty bad when you don't have that many skill points to begin with (most of your classes are 4+int, and you're supposedly not int-centered); Elf dilettante is just plain bad (you generally won't use many untrained skills, and instead let them to the party member that has ranks in the skill); why do you use Versatile Unarmed Strike at all? Really, almost no monster has DR/bludgeoning or slashing at high level; the bonus of Improved Unarmed Strike is very minor compared to the investment (in most cases it is +1 damage per strike, no more); and Power Attack does not work as well at all with unarmed strike as it does with 2-handed weapons.
The reason for the flaws is because it's feat starved at level 1. Do you HAVE to be a half elf? No. It would be more optimal with a human, but the elf dilletante was to go around having so many skills but also not having the necessary skill points.

I could have used say bard 1 for bardic Knack, but I didn't want any spells at all.
Being mundane in itself is unoptimal, and maybe this has reduncancies but it's definitely better as a nekkid fighter than a fighter 20.






Plus the fact that you can't take several of your feats because you aren't a human-descended race, so no Human Heritage, and no Able Learner, and no Dilettante, that the last two levels of paladin give you almost nothing of use, the last level of dancer really gives you absolutely nothing, that you have Pounce twice, that the evolved undead gives you nothing interesting, except fast healing, that is good but far from incredible, and that you are far from SAD with all the Int and Str you'll need to make this do at least what it is supposed to do semi-decently...
Half elf isn't a half-human race?
Hmmmmm.
so half of that aint right.


Paladin gives you little perks, nothing amazing, but it's just level wasters, and you get +1BAB so it's not entirely bad. Debilitating aura is alright. Divine health is unnecessary though, you are right in that.
If ANYTHING would be a good tweak, I'd probably trim some of the levels in battle dancer, and that last level of paladin as you said, and maybe throw in scout for skirmish, and another level of marshal.


Ultimately, it's not great at anything in particular, but more for the thematics. Yes you get pounce twice, but pounce comes on later, so if this isn't just a random mook, it has to be built up level by level. It's not a finished product, so early pounce is worth it.


Yeah,sure you can be turned. And you can also be dominated if you were a fleshy being with no amazing magic item hax, so it's not really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

To me, mundane means MUNDANE.
Is this better than most of the core classes played straight with no items at level 20? Yes.
I'd say maybe a vow of poverty monk would do better.

If you are saying the kid with the best grades in class is the smartest, but he was the only one with full internet access during the test, and the rest just had pencils, then it's not really that great.

Remember, this was a build that necessarily wasn't the average frenzied berserker. Barely any TOB is available, etc, and I went further to make it so that there wasn't any spell slots gained throughout the character.

Yeah, you are vulnerable to turning, but at the same standpoint, a living dude is vulnerable to everything else,even mundane and arguably more common, poison and environmental effects, hunger, lack of oxygen. All these things should be WAY more common in a dungeon than being turned. And just slapping magic items on something to make it better is kind of lazy, and as you have seen, this build itself was kind of lazily put together but it holds up.


If the point is not to have any woo-woo come out of your hands, but you can still be decked out in magical gucci gear, then why not just play an artificer. You aren't a "spell caster".
That's how I feel mostly about magical items in this kind of though experiment, and any kind of muggle v caster debate.


How do you test viability? Room of spirit and time, skyclad.
THAT'S the test. Otherwise it's like saying I can write chinese because I have google translate.

[Maat Mons]

Since we've gotten onto the subject of being immune to things, is there a way to have an arcane caster level without being able to cast spells of use invocations? I'd like to get into Green Star Adept for the blanket immunity to effects that allow a Fortitude save.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since we've gotten onto the subject of being immune to things, is there a way to have an arcane caster level without being able to cast spells of use invocations? I'd like to get into Green Star Adept for the blanket immunity to effects that allow a Fortitude save.

Probably not within the guidelines I set.

That aside, the magical training feat will give you an arcane caster level of 1 treated as your choice of wizard or sorcerer along with a couple cantrips. Used that to qualify for precocious apprentice and that to qualify for soulcaster for my totemist/ warlock/ incarnate/ soulcaster. Insane skill-monkey with only 3 skills staying maxed.

[SangoProduction]

Best Mundane? Depends on definition of best. For what role. In what capacity.

I'll definitely put my vote in for a Dvati rogue. Great for scouting and combat and skills - just about the 3 things mundanes can do. And is excessively reasonable. But Compendium was banned.

Since my dear Dvati are so hated as to be banned, I'll settle.

Changeling rogue. With the racial substitution levels for a bunch of skill points. Now it's really good at skills, relative to everyone else. And especially good at impersonations and impressions.
Add in Ghost template savage progression, and in the first level of dying, you get most of the benefits. You become even better at scouting. And man, can you ever be ... tricky, using your shapechange while incoporeal.
If, for some reason, stealth is still an issue while a ghost, Shadow Creature template could be cool. Wouldn't even clash with the current concept.

[Max Caysey]

I start with ALL the templates...

[Asmotherion]

I had a lot of fun playing a Troll Monk, but I'm not sure you could call it Mundane.

A Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Troll to be specific. Had only 1 level of Monk in fact, and never leveled up. You know what they say about templates: Sometimes it's fun to embrace the fact you'll never level up, and go crazy with them.

Other than that, the only martials I've ever played were Gish or Initiators or had some other form of Spellcasting. I'm one of those guys who are very fond of magic and refuse to play in a fantasy world without being at least technically a mage. XD

[Particle_Man]

Since we've gotten onto the subject of being immune to things, is there a way to have an arcane caster level without being able to cast spells of use invocations? I'd like to get into Green Star Adept for the blanket immunity to effects that allow a Fortitude save.

Maybe if your spell casting stat is ridiculously low (like 3?) and never improves, and you take some class that eschews magic items like wands?

[gorfnab]

Melee "Bard"
Marshal 2/ Barbarian (Spirit Totem: Lion ACF - CC, Wolf Totem ACF - UA, Whirling Frenzy ACF - UA, Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) {Ride for Tumble}) 2/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Warrior Skald 3/ Warchanter 10
Feats Required: WS (Power Attack, Cleave), WC (Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus)
Suggested Feats: Imperious Command - DotU (+Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered), Dreadful Wrath - PGtF, Doomspeak - CoR, Able Learner - RoD, Dragonfire Inspiration - DrM (+Race: Silverbrow Human, or other race that counts as Dragon subtype), Extra Music - CA, Leadership

Human Melee Swift Hunter
Scout 5/ Ranger (Arcane Hunter ACF - CM) 2/ Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy ACF - UA, Spiritual Totem: Lion ACF - CC) 1/ Dervish 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge - RotW (or regular Dodge), Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter (CS)
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish (CS)

*Open Feat Options* - Extra Rage (CW, set to Whirling Frenzy), Elusive Target (CW), Combat Reflexes, Deadly Defense (CS), Flay Foe (CoR), or Nemesis (BoED, for the Arcane Hunter Ranger ACF)

[Empyreal Dragon]

On the note of caster level without casting. Karsites technically could do this.

[gorfnab]

On the note of caster level without casting. Karsites technically could do this.
Here is a weird build that does just that.

Originally posted here by MisterKaws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-504447.html)

Karsite(ToM) Sorcerer 18

ACFs: Stalwart Sorcerer(CM), Battle Sorcerer(UA), Spell Shield(DgS), Dragonblood Sorcerer(RotD, lv4), Domain Access(CC), Dragonpacts (DM).

2 - LA, Medium Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon proficiency, DR 5/Magic, SR 10+HD, Magic Drain(Sp, Cha-based), Spell Healing
3 - Stalwart, Battle Sorcerer, Spell Shield, Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath
4 -
5 - Blue Dragon Lineage
6 - Dragonblood Sorcerer Sl-Ability(lv1, Nerveskitter), Dragonpact(lv2)
7 - Domain Access(CC)
8 - Obtain Familiar(CA), Sl-Ability(lv2, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv3)
9 -
10- Sl-Ability(lv3, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv4)
11- Improved Familiar(CW, Winter Wolf)
12- Sl-Ability(lv4, Celerity), Dragonpact(lv5)
13-
14- Arcane Strike, Sl-Ability(lv5, Arcane Fusion, CM), Dragonpact(lv6)
15-
16- Sl-Ability(lv6, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv7)
17- Spell-Linked Familiar
18- Sl-Ability(lv7, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv8)
19-
20- Martial Training(Shadow Stride)/Open, Sl-Ability(lv8, Greater Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv9)