Martial builds that are entirely [Ex], zero magic

[Elves]

Spinning off from Kelb's thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629343-Best-quot-mundane-quot), I thought this was an interesting challenge. What are the best or coolest builds you can think of that don't possess a single supernatural, spell-like or magical ability? That is, their abilities are entirely mundane or extraordinary.

Normal WBL and treasure is allowed, but avoid spell completion and spell trigger items.

[Unavenger]

My instinct says warblade 20 or crusader 20, and it's not really a factor of the disparity I see between (ex) and mundane. They were designed to blow previous non-whatevercasting classes out of the water, and they did.

Outside of that, something rogue-related is perhaps the answer too, but inability to UMD is probably going to cause issues.

I suspect for pure combat you want to be doing a tripper/mage slayer lockdown build. If an enemy wants to attack you at range, charge them and knock them over; if they want to cast spells (assuming that your opponents aren't under the same restriction on builds as you), do the same and rely on mage slayer to force them to provoke, and if they are competent in close combat, trip them as they try to move in to attack you. The cure for this kind of build however is showing up as a rogue and doing a few hundred points of sneak attack damage before you can blink, or using maneuvers to add a casual +100 to your damage rolls while also using a reach weapon (or just crawling up to the fighter who is trying to do it), or even consider the use of a net if you feel inventive.

On the net note, actually, part of me thinks that someone who builds and uses traps unironically might be a good idea as I anticipate a lot of builds that assume you'll actually show up to the battle and fight relatively fairly...

[Particle_Man]

Are orcs cool? :smallbiggrin:

I will repeat my half orc paragon 3/orc paragon 3/eye of gruumsh 10/exotic weapon master 3. Still not sure what to do with the last level that fits the theme though.

[Zaile]

Hmm, possess or uses?

I'm working on a focused melee build, dipping to get the most abilities out of each class. So far here is what the first 6 levels look like:


Cloistered Cleric 1 - Choosing a god with Strength and Animal domains. Trade away all domains for Strength, Animal, and Knowledge devotions. You get a ton of skill points for a melee and you never cast spells. Turn attempts are strictly for fueling feats. All feat abilities are untyped or EX
Barbarian 1 - Lion totem for Pounce, Whirling Frenzy
Barbarian 2 - Wolf spirit totem for Improved Trip, take Knockdown feat
Monk 2 - 2 more bonus feats (Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes), Evasion, and d6 unarmed damage (you could also go unarmed Swordsage here, but miss the feats)
Fighter 1 to get another feat you need and heavy armor


Feats to make it better: Educated or Able learner feat, Power Attack and Leap Attack
Weapon is Falchion for the massive crit range

At this point you only lose 1 BAB if using fractional (.5 + 2 + 1.5 + 1). You have a guaranteed +1/+2 on all attacks and damage, scaling bonus to Strength or Flight and/or overcome hardness/DR at least 4 times per day, Imp. Trip & Grapple, you knock prone with 10 damage, can charge + full attack and get another attack from Frenzy and have unarmed ability of a monk as well as evasion and very good saves.

Then start getting martial adept levels to get whatever else you want. I think almost all the maneuvers are Ex, so just don't get the ones that are Su/Sp.


Non-Cleric Build:

Stat priorities: Str > Con > Int/Dex > Wis/Cha
Rogue 1 - Sneak attack dice, massive skill points and Trapfinding. Max Spot, Search, Tumble, D. Device, UMD and monster Knowledges the rest as you see fit.
Barbarian 1 - Lion totem for Pounce, Whirling Frenzy
Barbarian 2 - Wolf spirit totem for Improved Trip, take Knockdown feat
Monk 2 - 2 more bonus feats (Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes), Evasion, and d6 unarmed damage
Fighter 1 to get another feat you need and heavy armor (though Evasion limits you to light)


Feats to make it better: Educated or Able learner feat + Knowledge devotion, Power Attack and, of course, Leap Attack
Weapon is Falchion for crit range

At this point you only lose 1 BAB if using fractional (+3 from full, +2.5 from 3/4 classes). You have a guaranteed +1/+2 on all attacks and damage (K. Devotion), You can trip, grapple, charge, pounce and fight unarmed pretty well. You have an additional attack on full-attack from Frenzy and Flurry, evasion, and very good saves. You also have enough skills and skill points to cover scouting/Trapfinding and at least one more out-of-combat role.

Prestige classes:
Rogue/Utility PRCs
Fighter/Barb PRCs for damage
Fist of the Forest is nice here, but it has Su abilities (Feral Trance AKA rage, magic unarmed strikes and Scent)

[Maat Mons]

Are you using the same restrictions on source material as the thread this spins off from? How about the ban on uberchargers?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 in that order.
Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, Dead Levels features, and maybe Dungeoncrasher if you prefer.
The Fighter 10 bonus feat at 20th is Weapon Supremacy.
Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick, Imperious Command in DotU, armor with the Fearsome property from DotU (it's more recent than MIC), and if possible Dreadful Wrath in PGtF.

Ideal race is a Desert Half-Orc (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) using the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in the sidebar in RoD p150, so you count as a human instead of as an orc for qualifying for things (you still count as a half-orc). This allows you to qualify for Dreadful Wrath. Use the Otyugh Hole to gain Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it.

Zhentarim Soldier 9 allows you to demoralize an opponent as a swift action, or every opponent within 10 ft. once per encounter with Never Outnumbered. Imperious Command makes anyone intimidated by you cower for a round, and be shaken on the following round as well. With the Fearsome armor you can do it as a move-action as well, and still get a standard-action martial maneuver in the same turn. So you can keep two opponents locked down for an entire encounter while still dealing damage.

[Elves]

My instinct says warblade 20 or crusader 20
Out of the box those classes are stronger than baseline martials, but I wouldn't call it optimal. Initiator 4/legchamp6/x10 still allows 9th level maneuvers.


Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 in that order.
In line with above, going ftr10/warblade4/legchamp6 allows 9ths through items which could be useful.


I suspect for pure combat you want to be doing a tripper/mage slayer lockdown build. If an enemy wants to attack you at range, charge them and knock them over;
Mobility is where you'd expect a truly mundane meleer to struggle so the first options that spring to mind are large size + meteor hammer + reach enhancers or bloodstorm blade.
Ranged martials may prove better though. Swift hunter has the 30ft range issue so perhaps a longer range ranged character.


Are you using the same restrictions on source material as the thread this spins off from? How about the ban on uberchargers?
No ban, but novel ideas are certainly good.

[Silly Name]

Are orcs cool? :smallbiggrin:

I will repeat my half orc paragon 3/orc paragon 3/eye of gruumsh 10/exotic weapon master 3. Still not sure what to do with the last level that fits the theme though.

One level of Frenzied Berserker? It's not strictly orc-themed, but Frenzy+Diehard does play in the tough-as-nails and strong-as-hell idea. A more thematic option could be the Orc Warlord (Races of Faerun), as long as the Eye of Gruumsh and/or Half-Orc Paragon's Rage ability counts as "Barbarian rage ability" in order to fulfill the requirements.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If you are going against spellcasters, I think you may consider taking a Bariaur (Planar Handbook) with at least a level of Forsaker. Put Mineral Warrior in there if LA buyoff is on. This is the definition of a build with zero magic, since almost no magic can even affect it (SR 20+ECL is a lot, even for the equivalent of two levels). As somebody said, you can start with Warblade 10 (Legacy Champion has a lot of (Su)). Then Barbarian 2/Frenzied berserker for Pounce, Whirling Frenzy and more damage. You have then 6 levels left (5 if no LA buyoff) that you can fill with whatever, probably a bit of fighter and monk, to get the feats it needs, and Forsaker 2 and 3, to get Natural Armor and go through some Damage Reduction.


Then the equipment.

There is not much you can do at very high level with no magic equipment, but let's try to stay in the "Absolutely no magic" zone. First, masterwork weapon and armor. The weapon is in Abyssal Bloodiron (Planar Handbook, counts as cold iron, +4 to confirm a crit), and the armor is Glassteel (Races of Faerun, properties of mithral and adamantine).
Use other items, like a Frystalline sword, if you have to fight demons, for example. Or Astral Driftmetal to fight ghosts, or riverin chains and handcuffs, because why bother with solidity when you can have "litterally unbreakable". If possible, use some kind of mount, or a planar ship from Planar Handbook. You'll absolutely need to be able to fly at a high enough level.
Then, lots and lots of Alchemy items, notably healing salves, since you'll probably need healing. Use an alchemy blade with Aboleth mucus in it. This thing is nasty. Or just a regular weapon and the most dangerous poison you can find (ask a rogue friend or cohort to apply it to avoid having to take a feat).

Do use a lot of bloodspike, mostly bloodspike(tempo). A free move action is incredibly good for a non-magical item.

Add a hang glider. Or two. Or ten. Those are cheap, light, and can make you go wherever you want if your planar ship just lifts you once, or if it is incapacitated and there is a cliff nearby.

At this point, others would say "and add anything else that I might have forgotten", but this is D&D, so I'll just say "and add lots of shapesand".

[Maat Mons]

All right. Let's do a Barbarian 20 build.

Race: Wood Elf

ACFs
3: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +10 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
5: Unshakable: Immune to Fear; no Uncanny Dodge
6: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +20 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
7: Streetfighter: +1 crit. threat range when charging; no DR
9: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +30 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
10: Streetfighter: Can make 90-deg. turn when charging; no DR
12: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +40 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
13: Streetfighter: Can move through allies when charging; no DR
15: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +50 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
16: Streetfighter: Can move up to 4x speed when charging; no DR
18: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +60 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
19: Streetfighter: If 1st attack of a charge drops foe, can make new charge against new opponent, can be used any number of times per round, but limited by total movement; no DR

Feats
1: Otherworldly
3: Power Attack
6: Leap Attack
9: Improved Bull Rush
12: Shock Trooper
15: Endurance
18: Steadfast Determination

Items: Open to suggestions

[H_H_F_F]

All right. Let's do a Barbarian 20 build.

Race: Wood Elf

ACFs
3: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +10 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
5: Unshakable: Immune to Fear; no Uncanny Dodge
6: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +20 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
7: Streetfighter: +1 crit. threat range when charging; no DR
9: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +30 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
10: Streetfighter: Can make 90-deg. turn when charging; no DR
12: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +40 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
13: Streetfighter: Can move through allies when charging; no DR
15: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +50 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
16: Streetfighter: Can move up to 4x speed when charging; no DR
18: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +60 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense
19: Streetfighter: If 1st attack of a charge drops foe, can make new charge against new opponent, can be used any number of times per round, but limited by total movement; no DR

Feats
1: Otherworldly
3: Power Attack
6: Leap Attack
9: Improved Bull Rush
12: Shock Trooper
15: Endurance
18: Steadfast Determination

Items: Open to suggestions

Can wood elves take fangshield substitution levels?

[Silly Name]

All right. Let's do a Barbarian 20 build.

Race: Wood Elf

ACFs
3: Fast Charge (Fangshields): +10 ft. speed when charging; no Trap Sense


Don't you need to be non-humanoid to be a Fangshield barbarian?

[Gruftzwerg]

Just posted a fitting build in another thread. So, I'll quote it here for completeness:


In that chase, how about a dual double handcrossbow build. My El Mariachi build could be easily taken as base blueprint for most part of the build:

Deepwyrm Half-Drow
Fighter 5 / Rogue 1 / Deepwood Sniper 7 / Fighter 7

The build gets 14 feat. (without Human/flaws)

But we need 17 feats: (3 from Magic Items)

TWF
Imp TWF (from "Gloves of the Balanced Hand")
Greater TWF
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Hand Crossbow Focus
Crossbow Sniper
Martial Study (as requirement for)
Martial Stance: Blood in the Water
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double crossbows)
Weapon Specialization (Double Hand-Crossbow)
Ranged Weapon Mastery: (Piercing)
Dead Eye
Weapon Focus (light mace)
Lightning Mace
Far Shot (from "Horizon Googles")
Combat Reflexes (from "Serpent Armor")

Note: feats are not ordered by lvl / requirements /usefulness! You need to figure that out yourself ;)

Gloves of Storing are needed to reload both double crossbows as free action (see El Mariachi build for explanation).

Collar of Perpetual Attendance gives you Unseen Servant at will. Buy lots of Marbles and let em deploy em for you in combat under your enemies. This helps to make em flat-footed and thus increases the DEX dmg modifier up to 2.5x.


Finally get 2:
+1, Aptitude (+1), Splitting (+3), Exit Wound(+2), Force (+3) Double Handcrossbows (total price +10)


The build can obtain up to 9 regular attacks per turn (5 mainhand and 4 offhand).

Crits are the main focus of the build (17-20/x4). The "Blood in the Water" stance gives a stacking and duration refreshing (1minute) +1 attack and damage bonus for each crit. Lighting Mace and Aptitude Weapon give extra attacks on crits.

And if that ain't crazy enough by itself, Splitting and Exit Wound enable you to hit and crit even more per round, further increasing the synergy of the build.

Annihilate entire armies of enemies within a few rounds with your scary dual double hand-crossbows.

May I introduce: Lucky Luke, the man the reloads faster as his shadow :smallbiggrin:
edit: forgot to mention the Drow Fighter Racial Substitution Level at first level to get Hit and Run Fighter.

[Elves]

Don't you need to be non-humanoid to be a Fangshield barbarian?
That's why he took Otherworldly.


All right. Let's do a Barbarian 20 build.
That's kind of cool -- so the idea is solving the mobility issue by having a really fast charge speed. Then presumably skill tricks like Twisted Charge.

[Gorthawar]

Swift Hunter builds that replace the Ranger spells with feats should work reasonable well. All their other skills are ex.
Hunter Barbarian 2/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Scout 4/Wilderness Feat Rogue 12 with swift hunter and swift ambusher gets 3 Favourite Enemies, 17 lvl of skirmish, 1 sneak attack die and 7 bonus fighter feats whilst still hitting 16 BaB. Lots of duplicate class features that can be swapped based on preferences as well.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Silly Name
Don't you need to be non-humanoid to be a Fangshield barbarian?


Originally Posted by Elves
That's why he took Otherworldly.

This seems like “ask your DM” territory. Otherworldly affects type (outsider instead of humanoid) but not actual body shape, which is the key issue for Fangshields members. There are no humanoid-shaped outsiders listed in the membership of the Fangshields, so Otherworldly isn’t an automatic qualifier.

[Maat Mons]

In terms of overall body shape, I'd describe Dryads, Nymphs, and Storm Giants as "humanoid," in the common-language meaning of the term. So I don't think having a "normal" body plan is an automatic disqualifier either.

I chose Otherworldly Elf because I thought it was the least likely to draw objection. Elves are thematically aligned with nature. They don't present any special challenges for a DM. They don't come from an obscure source. And they meet the prerequisite.

It's far from the only +0 LA option. In fact, it's not really the best, since it eats up a feat. Duskling, Faun, Gruwaar, and Killoren are all Fey, and are certainly no more "humanoid" in form than Nymphs. For purposes of this contest though, Duskling, Gruwaar, and Killoren are out, on account of having Su or Sp racial abilities.

If you like, I can rework the build to be a Faun instead of an Otherworldly Elf. Mechanically, I'd lose the +2 Str and Dex, but I'd free up a feat and eliminate the -2 Con and Int. Thematically, it'd be hilarious. Fauns are normally timid and nonviolent. I like the idea of someone who's normally very quiet and shy, but sometimes just gets so, so angry! "E- excuse me... If you could just s- st-... stop what you're... what you're- Oh that's it! I will end you!"

The less-than-courageous non-Raging disposition of this new character would mean I didn't feel compelled to take the Unshakable ACF for thematic reasons. That means I can instead trade Improved Uncanny Dodge for the Endurance feat. That frees up another feat in the build, on top of the one I don't have to spend on Otherworldly.

I should have plenty of to-hit and damage even without the Wood Elf's +2 Str. And I won't mind the extra 20 hp from not having a Con penalty. The Dex and Int differences aren't really here-or-there.

I'd say it's a pretty good trade overall. The only reason I didn't go with Faun before is because so few people know of them. And it's actually pretty hard to find them in the books if you don't already know where to look. (Page 133 of Deities and Demigods, FYI.) Also, I hadn't thought of the angle of a shy girl who flips her crap and turns into a mini-Hulk.




What are we doing for ability scores for these builds? And are we just taking average hp after 1st level?

I could still use suggestions on items.

[Elves]

Faun is cool since there's so rarely any reason to use them. The hooves also fit the build theme and the Wis penalty gives more justification for taking Steadfast.

Duskling may work though, is simply having essentia supernatural?

Always good to have both 32 and 28 arrays. I assume 28 here is 18/14/14/8/8/8. So wild (Dragon 306) faun 28 PB has baseline 20/16/14/6/6/6. Kinda mentally compromised but you don't need many skills do you?

Then 32 PB would mean +2 Dex or Con, +4 Int, or +1 Dex & Con if you intend to to tome them.

Valorous weapon, belt of battle, a couple alternate-slot belts of battle, enhancement bonus to speed (boots of speed?), items and grafts for extra natural attacks, boots of the battle charger, some swift action movement items, the normal stat pluses and +5 saves. And whatever else.

[Crake]

Cloistered Cleric 1 - Choosing a god with Strength and Animal domains. Trade away all domains for Strength, Animal, and Knowledge devotions. You get a ton of skill points for a melee and you never cast spells. Turn attempts are strictly for fueling feats. All feat abilities are untyped or EX


Devotion feats are Su, so the entire cleric level doesn't fit into this challenge at all.

[Zaile]

Devotion feats are Su, so the entire cleric level doesn't fit into this challenge at all.

Actually they are SP looking at C Champ. Knowledge Devotion, however, is not. It's insight.

So simply change C. Cleric to Rogue 1 and you get the same effect. Now you can add sneak-attack progression in there. Done, winning.

[Feldar]

To quote from another thread (for context):


Back in Living Greyhawk days, near the end of the campaign, I wrote an interactive where a grand tournament of arms was being held. About 45 of the 50 participants brought melee-type characters, many of whom were 14th level or higher.

Unfortunately, the tournament wasn't the only thing happening that day and the participants were called on to enter the sewers and deal with an issue.

Cue the swarms!

It was awfully funny watching 15th level melee types dig through their old inventory sheets to find alchemists fire, oil, etc.

This particular tournament was held in an antimagic field. It was won by a monk/ranger/dervish character, all of whose abilities worked in the anti-magic field because they were Extraordinary.