Working with LA

[Feldar]

A player is asking to play a race that has monstrous hit dice and level adjustment. How do I do the math to figure out where the character is going to be in relation with the rest of the party please?

[Zaile]

What monster(s)?

LA is notoriously either over-costed or under-costed (very few in this category, but they are powerful).

In general check the "LA Assignment" threads here for the specific monsters. Lots of good work has been done on LAs and where they are/should be.

I'd say forgo the racial HD and just take the monster stat bonuses and abelites. The player will be behind and RHD is strictly inferior to class levels.

[One Step Two]

Aside from the LA re-assignment threads the usual math is as follows for 3.5:

Monster Hit Dice, plus Level Adjustment, is the characters over-all Effective Character Level.

For example, a Gnoll (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm) Has 2 Hit dice, and a LA of +1, making it's Effective Character Level 3, however, he will not gain a bonus feat for his 3rd level, until he achieves his 3rd Hit dice, or ECL 4.

[Feldar]

At what experience total does the gnoll start being a 1st level character? 2nd level? 3rd level? Does the gnoll start with the 1st level feat or only gain that when gaining enough experience to make 1st level?

I'll consider the LA adjustment stuff later, once I know the math well.

[Zaile]

At what experience total does the gnoll start being a 1st level character? 2nd level? 3rd level? Does the gnoll start with the 1st level feat or only gain that when gaining enough experience to make 1st level?

I'll consider the LA adjustment stuff later, once I know the math well.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

Normally, you don't gain your first class level until you have enough XP to the to ECL + 1. For a Gnoll, that's level 4. When he has enough experience that a normal character would be level 4 (6,000), he gets his first class level. This is the normal rules, but can be VERY squishy with high LA and/or low HD. Take the Hound archon, it's ECL 11, but has only 6d8 (33) HP. Yes it has some nice abilities and stat boosts, but that HP, stats, feats and saves will not increase until 12th level. The character will have half the HD of the rest of the party and be 11 levels behind on class abilities. Not even close to worth it. The only time high ECl is ever worth it is it has a casting ability = HD

Then if you use buyoff, you buy off the first LA when he reaches the class level that equals LA x 3 (3rd for a Gnoll). This will be at character level 6th and 15,000 xp. At that level he pays exp = (ECL - 1) x 1000. For the gnoll that's (ECL 6 - 1 = 5) X 1000 = 5,000 xp deducted, leaving our gnoll with 10,000 xp, 2 racial HD, 3 class level and no more LA. He progresses normally after that, but will always be "behind" by 3000 xp (his 2 RHD) no matter the level.

My best advice is to find and use a template that fits what he wants and has just LA with no RHD, then allow your PC to gain levels normally until he needs to buy off his LA.

I've had DMs use alternate methods as follows:

You keep racial hit dice and everyone gets free ECL up to a certain number, say 3. Everyone starts with at least 1 class level, but if you didn't use all 3 ECL, you get the difference in class levels. So everyone in the example would be ECL + Class level = 4. Everyone progresses normally so you don't have to stress on math and buys off LA as normal.
You remove any racial hit die and all you get from the monster is the base stat adjustments, the benefits of the creature type, and the EX/SU/SP abilities. Everyone starts with 1 class level, and you advance normally, but the LA MUST be bought off at the appropriate levels. This removes the save boosts, BAB, skill points, hit points, & feats (each 3 RHD gets a feat, just like class levels) from the RHD, and also lets you control the special abilities as they may not be fully developed on a "young" version of the monster. In case you don't know, monsters have base stats of 10 and 11. If you see an odd score, subtract 11 from it to the the bonus. For an even number, subtract 10. Below 10 means there is a penalty.


I wouldn't use method 2 if the LA was above +2 and I'd discourage allowing ANYTHING with ECL 4+. You cannot buy off LA over 3 until epic levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

At what experience total does the gnoll start being a 1st level character? 2nd level? 3rd level? Does the gnoll start with the 1st level feat or only gain that when gaining enough experience to make 1st level?

I'll consider the LA adjustment stuff later, once I know the math well.

So the basics is that character level is equal to Hit Dice. A gnoll with 2 racial Hit Dice and 1 class level has a character level of 3. Character level is what determines feat progressions, maximum skill ranks, and ability score increases.

The +1 Level Adjustment means that he needs the experience values of a character one level higher. So a level 1 gnoll warrior with 2 racial Hit Dice and a +1 Level Adjustment needs the same experience total as any other 4th level character, but in all other ways counts as if they are 3rd level.

A gnoll's minimum effective level is 3 without any class levels, at which they have only their 2 racial Hit Dice and 3,000 xp. They can start play as a standard gnoll and start taking class levels when they reach the experience of a 4th level character.

[Remuko]

At what experience total does the gnoll start being a 1st level character? 2nd level? 3rd level? Does the gnoll start with the 1st level feat or only gain that when gaining enough experience to make 1st level?

I'll consider the LA adjustment stuff later, once I know the math well.

racial hit die ARE levels. The Gnoll is Effectively Level 3 because of his +1 LA but hes level 2 because of his 2 Gnoll hit dice. So he already has a first level feat in the stat block for the gnoll (tho you could and imo should let the player rechoose this). Since he is ECL 3 right from the start he needs enough exp to get to Level 4 to get his first level up.

[Bavarian itP]

Obligatory: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

A gnoll starts mit 2 HD und +1 LA, so they're a 3rd level character. They start with 3000 XP, but gain new XP at a slower rate (than chars who start at level 1), because they're already 3rd level.
2 RHD count as character levels, so they start with their 1st level feat, and with the 4x skill points you gain at first level (and their normal 2nd level skill points, too, so effectivly 5x(2+INT) skill points). Their BAB, hit points and saves are also those of a Level 2 char. The "class" of those 2 levels is their type, in this case "humanoid". This gives them 2d8+2xCON HP, and a BAB of +1,5, rounded to 1. Their good save is Fort (so +3) and their bad saves are Reflex and Will (+2/3, rounded down to +0). They only have Listen and Spot as class skills.

[Zaile]

Obligatory: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

A gnoll starts mit 2 HD und +1 LA, so they're a 3rd level character. They start with 3000 XP, but gain new XP at a slower rate (than chars who start at level 1), because they're already 3rd level.
2 RHD count as character levels, so they start with their 1st level feat, and with the 4x skill points you gain at first level (and their normal 2nd level skill points, too, so effectivly 5x(2+INT) skill points). Their BAB, hit points and saves are also those of a Level 2 char. The "class" of those 2 levels is their type, in this case "humanoid". This gives them 2d8+2xCON HP, and a BAB of +1,5, rounded to 1. Their good save is Fort (so +3) and their bad saves are Reflex and Will (+2/3, rounded down to +0). They only have Listen and Spot as class skills.

I was going to ask about starting with level-appropriate XP, but it looks like you indeed do. Wow. I have always played you start at 0xp like every other PC and any LA/ECL is factored in to reduce the experience you gain until everyone catches up to your ECL.

[Asmotherion]

I'd advice you to take a look into the "LA Asignment" Thread.

Other than that, just add the LA to the Character Level of the PC, and you're good to go. Not very exact, but does the job.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I was going to ask about starting with level-appropriate XP, but it looks like you indeed do. Wow. I have always played you start at 0xp like every other PC and any LA/ECL is factored in to reduce the experience you gain until everyone catches up to your ECL.

The thing is, the "everyone catches up to your ECL" should not happen. If a party starts at level 1, there shouldn't be one player with a level adjustment (or monster RHD), because he would be equivalent to a 3rd (in the gnoll's case) level character, and the party would be unbalanced for the two first levels. If your player really wants to play a gnoll with a first level party, consider reducing its power level until it is no longer above a "normal" character power level, then giving him his abilities back bit by bit when leveling up to 2, then playing the gnoll as described when reaching level 3, and only then making him gain class levels (even though I do not recommand this technique, since there is no official way to reduce a monster's power, except savage progression, but there is none for the gnoll).

[Quentinas]

The thing is, the "everyone catches up to your ECL" should not happen. If a party starts at level 1, there shouldn't be one player with a level adjustment (or monster RHD), because he would be equivalent to a 3rd (in the gnoll's case) level character, and the party would be unbalanced for the two first levels. If your player really wants to play a gnoll with a first level party, consider reducing its power level until it is no longer above a "normal" character power level, then giving him his abilities back bit by bit when leveling up to 2, then playing the gnoll as described when reaching level 3, and only then making him gain class levels (even though I do not recommand this technique, since there is no official way to reduce a monster's power, except savage progression, but there is none for the gnoll).

At least in d&d 3.5 there is a savage progression for the gnoll , it is in races of wild, and obviously it has 3 levels with 2 increments of the hit dice and 1 level without any increment in the hit dice . I don't know if in Pathfinder savage progression is a thing I admit

[Zaile]

The problem in general is that RHD are strictly inferior to class levels. You gain no real benefits unless you are a beholder or dragon with SU & SP abilities like eye rays, racial casting, and breath weapons, which in turn are entirely too powerful to be PCs in the first place. Most RHD are inferior to levels in fighter b/c all they help you do is be a beatstick (increase BAB and HP) but have no other features.

This is why I suggest removing RHD entirely and just using the LA and base abilities and statistics of the monster. LA can be bought off, RHD cannot. This won't affect low CR creatures like gnolls, however this option is unbalancing for creatures like giants. Probably best to limit this to ECL 4 or less creatures and only those with printed LAs.

The issues with monster PCs has always been they are OP at low levels, but with how ECL works, are extremely behind the curve at higher levels. Monster PCs have a starker contrast than even the caster/martial divide. Sure you have +6 to +10 more stats than normal, but when the non-monster PCs have 6th level spells and the monster PC has only 2nd, all the early power goes *poof*. It's clear WOTC wanted to discourage people from plying monstrous PCs, but then put out multiple books on how to do it, but then failed to address the power imbalance between low and higher levels.

As a DM, your job is going to be tough because you have to fill the gaps in rules that will never be officially updated again to balance the imbalances. I say focus on the mid-late game. Let the monster PC carry the party a bit through the early challenges, but don't leave him/her behind at higher levels. Depending on your group, this may actually help them advance faster as the DC of each encounter can be a little higher than normal.

[Feldar]

The thing is, the "everyone catches up to your ECL" should not happen. If a party starts at level 1, there shouldn't be one player with a level adjustment (or monster RHD), because he would be equivalent to a 3rd (in the gnoll's case) level character, and the party would be unbalanced for the two first levels. If your player really wants to play a gnoll with a first level party, consider reducing its power level until it is no longer above a "normal" character power level, then giving him his abilities back bit by bit when leveling up to 2, then playing the gnoll as described when reaching level 3, and only then making him gain class levels (even though I do not recommand this technique, since there is no official way to reduce a monster's power, except savage progression, but there is none for the gnoll).

If it were a starting at 1st thing I would have these issues. They'll be starting beyond the LA of the race in question. If someone wants to trade power later for power now, that's on them.


The problem in general is that RHD are strictly inferior to class levels. You gain no real benefits unless you are a beholder or dragon with SU & SP abilities like eye rays, racial casting, and breath weapons, which in turn are entirely too powerful to be PCs in the first place. Most RHD are inferior to levels in fighter b/c all they help you do is be a beatstick (increase BAB and HP) but have no other features.

This is why I suggest removing RHD entirely and just using the LA and base abilities and statistics of the monster. LA can be bought off, RHD cannot. This won't affect low CR creatures like gnolls, however this option is unbalancing for creatures like giants. Probably best to limit this to ECL 4 or less creatures and only those with printed LAs.

Yeah, that is not going to happen. As soon as I start doing that, everyone will want an LA race just for the extra hit points and save bonuses. "Building a fighter? Don't forget to get your free hit points and save bonuses from an LA race!"

[rrwoods]

Yeah, that is not going to happen. As soon as I start doing that, everyone will want an LA race just for the extra hit points and save bonuses. "Building a fighter? Don't forget to get your free hit points and save bonuses from an LA race!"

If you remove RHD, you remove everything associated with them -- no hp rolls, no feats, no skill points, no save bonuses. The whole point of this method (I think) is that you get the cool juicy bits that are unique to the race/monster/whatever, associate those with the LA, and drop everything that's generically associated with a hit die (because you're dropping all the hit dice).

[Fouredged Sword]

To explain what others have explained already.

A character's "Level" is their total HD. This includes racial HD. Anything that references level is referencing this number. A gnoll has 2 RHD and 5 class levels is a level 7 character.

Level Adjustment is a modifier on the exp the character needs to go up levels. They essentially act as if they are +X levels higher for all interactions with EXP. Level adjustment does not effect level. Level adjustment is the adjustment to something's level you make when calculating EXP gains and EXP required to go up levels. +1 LA means at the EXP required to reach level 5 you actually are only reaching level 4.

LA buyoff is an optional system that allows players to "buy off" LA at various points in their progression to remove it. They permanently give up EXP, but in return get to return to a more favorable EXP progression. LA buyoff can ONLY buy off LA. It cannot do anything for RHD.

There are some cheesy things you can do to remove RHD involving negative levels, but cheese is cheese.

When just starting a game you generally balance around a specific EXP point. If you start a game at 5th level what you are actually doing is starting the game at 10,000exp. A character with +1 LA is level 4 when they hit 10,000 EXP so they start at level 4. They will reach level 5 at 15,000 exp when all the non-LA characters hit level 6.

Generally LA is a bad balance system. It punishes too harshly early and the benefits gained are rarely worth anything in the late game. LA buyoff and the nature of EXP gained by the book resolves this somewhat by removing it over time and then using the EXP catchup mechanics built into EXP gains, but this is still not an ideal system.

[Zaile]

If you remove RHD, you remove everything associated with them -- no hp rolls, no feats, no skill points, no save bonuses. The whole point of this method (I think) is that you get the cool juicy bits that are unique to the race/monster/whatever, associate those with the LA, and drop everything that's generically associated with a hit die (because you're dropping all the hit dice).

This is exactly the point of it. You get the cool features, you get none of the extra saves, hp, skill, or feats from HD. I will re-iterate, this can still be very imbalancing with high LA creatures, like giants. Limit this to LA 3 or lower and I would also be careful with size, anything tiny or large+ may be an issue.

LA 3 is a good hard limit as it is the highest LA that can be bought off before epic levels.