PDA

View Full Version : Vague Paladin question



ocato
2007-11-10, 07:21 AM
Okay, I am going to keep this as vague as possible because I don't want to give away the story to a campaign I may or may not run on these boards.

Can paladins from two different groups that are both good-aligned and of different deities fight each other/be on opposite sides of a cause if both sides are for a greater good, just different methods of execution?

Also: Can paladins overthrow governments if the church decides that these governments are no longer serving the best interest of the people?

I'm pretty sure neither of these are fall-worthy events, because in both cases, the paladins in question are A. Serving a good cause, B. doing so within the set boundries of their religion's moral code, and C. adhering to their oathes to their church, to uphold peace and serve the good of the land.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-10, 07:42 AM
1) Yes but they shouldn't kill eachother
2) Yes, as long as th church is free from taint.

The_Cardinal
2007-11-10, 07:43 AM
Can paladins from two different groups that are both good-aligned and of different deities fight each other/be on opposite sides of a cause if both sides are for a greater good, just different methods of execution?


Absolutely, but the alignment system is deeply bogus.

Look... Lawful Good to one person might be a strict, bureaucratic, communist regime. This lawful good involves lots of regulations, taxes (taxes keep the government funded to look after and protect its citizens, after all) and so on.
Lawful Good to another person might be a freedom loving point of view. Few, but just laws, and low or non-existent taxation (tax is theft, after all). This is more of a libertarian point of view.

Obviously, these two political groups are going to clash. Both might be consider themselves as lawful good, and both probably consider the other to be evil.


Also: Can paladins overthrow governments if the church decides that these governments are no longer serving the best interest of the people?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke.

Spacefrog
2007-11-10, 07:45 AM
I would say:

They _could_ be on separate sides in a conflict, and it wouldn't make them fall automatically, but they would be better trying to resolve the conflict and work together. If a paladin on one side notices that there's a paladin on the other side it ought to at least make them think about whether they should really be fighting.

I reckon that paladins could definitely overthrow a government, even without instructions to do so from their church, if they were sure that doing so would be a good thing. They might need to be sure that the government is 'illegitimate' in some way, since the paladin's code tells them to respect legitimate authority. But if the authority of the church and that of the government are at odds then the paladin clearly has to choose between them, even if they both have claims to legitimacy.

Hopeless
2007-11-10, 07:46 AM
Okay, I am going to keep this as vague as possible because I don't want to give away the story to a campaign I may or may not run on these boards.
Can paladins from two different groups that are both good-aligned and of different deities fight each other/be on opposite sides of a cause if both sides are for a greater good, just different methods of execution?

Yes, check out Eberron for examples of that



Also: Can paladins overthrow governments if the church decides that these governments are no longer serving the best interest of the people?


Very likely try Thrane in Eberron as an example but they pretty much had the late king and the people of thrane backing them



I'm pretty sure neither of these are fall-worthy events, because in both cases, the paladins in question are A. Serving a good cause, B. doing so within the set boundries of their religion's moral code, and C. adhering to their oathes to their church, to uphold peace and serve the good of the land.

No they're not unless they go overboard like as described with Thrane and a specific city that was effectively slaughtered and used as an example of a site haunted by the evil that was committed there.

MCerberus
2007-11-10, 11:00 AM
King 1 is claiming that Kingdom B invaded without warning because they're evil and asks the church for aid. The church sends paladins to defend the land.

King 2 saw that Kingdom A was amassing an army on the border and decided the only option was to strike first. He goes to the church and they accept the plan in order to protect the citizens. They send paladins.

Fishy
2007-11-10, 11:41 AM
If a paladin on one side notices that there's a paladin on the other side it ought to at least make them think about whether they should really be fighting.

I don't know if I agree with this. If they're from different religions, I don't know that paladins would automatically recognize each other- unless one has large ranks in Knowledge(Religion/politics/history/nobility), and the other is carrying an obvious symbol. Even when divine magic is being slung around, it's not like Paladins invest that much in Spellcraft. In many circumstances, it might be difficult to tell a Paladin from a Knight from a Blackguard.

And even then: if you're driving a tank, and you see that the other side also has a tank, does that make them the good guys? :P

ElHugo
2007-11-10, 11:44 AM
Only if tanks are a clear indicating of being dedicated to Good and Law...

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-10, 11:47 AM
No, but when you see a bloke in golden, shining armor accompained by a choir of celestial voices (classic D&D pally, anyone?), you kinda think holy warrior. And you're sure when they act as if they had a stick up their asses. :smalltongue:

Fishy
2007-11-10, 12:33 PM
You're right, of course.

On a completely unrelated topic, I now know what my Beguiller is going to be doing this weekend.

Aquaseafoam
2007-11-10, 12:50 PM
As a DM, i'd personally rule in both cases that there was nothing inherently evil nor fall worthy about those events. What I don't like about the paladin class is that players of it tend to put their alignment before their paladin's deity, causing them to act in ways that either make them fall or cause absolute chaos. You aren't a paladin of Lawful Good, your a holy warrior of a god of righteousness and purity, act like it dammit. If your Deity's tenets are Fairness and always giving a second chance, "SUFFER NOT THE EVIL TO LIVE! STRIKE DOWN THE CURSED ONES!" Prepare to fall so hard your children will feel it.

#Raptor
2007-11-10, 04:37 PM
Interresting way of thinking, Aquaseafoam.

So, what you're saying is that, for example, a paladin of Pelor should try to redeem evildoers, and if he never even trys he might fall for it, while a paladin of Heironeous would be expected to regulary do detect&smite-ish actions? Did i get this right?

Corinthus
2007-11-10, 04:59 PM
Sounds about right. I like the idea of paladins being specificly tied to the cause of a god. (As opposed to the basic, RAW, 'Paladin's don't need a god. They are just devoted to good')

A paladin of Heironeous is going to be a bringer of justice, and is required (even more so than other paladins, since this is Heironeous specielty) to act with honour and chivalry.

A Paladin of Pelor would be just generally good, but probably bias more towards allowing foes to surrender, redeem themselves, etc.

Anyone else got cool idea's for Religous Paladins?

(p.s. You want a detect/smite pally, i'd suggest st. cuthbert. He seems like the sort for that)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-10, 05:04 PM
Eeehm, if you read the PHB, and the other books, list ONE pally who isn't god commited. It seems to go the other way, paladins mostly serve a deity, instead of greater good. And I think the reason is that they need deific sponsoring, which sucks. If clerics can follow Good and get spells, why not the pally?

Sepp
2007-11-10, 05:27 PM
Eeehm, if you read the PHB, and the other books, list ONE pally who isn't god commited. It seems to go the other way, paladins mostly serve a deity, instead of greater good. And I think the reason is that they need deific sponsoring, which sucks. If clerics can follow Good and get spells, why not the pally?

Check the PHB, pg. 43, under Religion, which states: "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough."

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-10, 05:39 PM
Can paladins from two different groups that are both good-aligned and of different deities fight each other/be on opposite sides of a cause if both sides are for a greater good, just different methods of execution? Yes.


Also: Can paladins overthrow governments if the church decides that these governments are no longer serving the best interest of the people? Yes.

AslanCross
2007-11-10, 05:44 PM
I don't think that a paladin of Heironeous would tend to fight n' smite more than a paladin of Pelor. They're both LG, anyway. How they act depends more on their personality than anything. I'd say that their different religions will only determine what their duties usually are. Perhaps you'd see a paladin of Pelor among the common people more, while paladins of Heironeous may be more likely to be leading awesome cavalry charges in a war. However, if faced with the same situation, I'd say they'd end up doing very similar things--offer surrender and mercy, and if this offer is denied, then fight.

In any case, paladins could surely be on opposing sides of a war and won't necessarily fall for it. However, paladins tend to recognize each other on sight, so they might begin to question the whole cause they are fighting for (which IMO is a good RP opportunity).

And yes, they can definitely overthrow a government if the church (assuming it is not corrupt) decrees it no longer fit to serve the people. Paladins will support both law and good, but if the law is unable to uphold good, they will favor good.

Kompera
2007-11-10, 11:00 PM
What I don't like about the paladin class is that players of it tend to put their alignment before their paladin's deity, causing them to act in ways that either make them fall or cause absolute chaos.
This is it exactly. Anyone can be LG. And those people are expected to live up to the core values that come with being LG. But if you're a Paladin, you're not only LG but you also have the additional (not substitute) tenets of your deity to live up to. It's an additive thing. Which is why even other LG folks sometimes feel as though Paladins have a stick lodged.

Doresain
2007-11-10, 11:09 PM
in the case of the church getting paladins to overthrow the government:

it would be more interesting if the church was corrupt but had ways of hiding it (honestly, its not that hard)...revenge of the sith anyone?

Fawsto
2007-11-11, 12:29 AM
D&D Paladin Combat Basis by Alignment:

Vs LG (another Pally): They would aproach, detect evil in eachother, say something like this "He is not Evil... Pehaps I can settle this by Talking..." They aproach more and almost in the same time they'd say "Hey, I am a Paladin to "X" Church... Seriously? I am a Paladin from "X" Church. Hmm... Seems that we can talk our way out of this, right?" Or, if war is the only option, hey would agree in some kind of mostly non-lethal fair fight to settle the problem. They would mostly act together. If they don't have the chance to talk (outgoing battle) they would fight normaly, since the Paladin is not sworn to stop fighting to talk to a enemy.

Vs NG : *Hmm... No Evil there... Pehaps some talking would work* "Hail, My name is "insert name", I am a Paladin to "X" Church. Can we possibily settle this without a fight?" Possible answers, Yes or No. If yes, it is ok, if no, normal battle.

Vs CG : *No Evil... Let's talk..." Same as LG and NG, but possibly a little harder.

Thing goes bad when a Pally is interacting with a Neutral Force... Since he has nothing to fight a Neutral Enemy properly, and probably a Neutral enemy doesn't care about if he is or not a servant to the Gods... The situation gets grim...

Well, If facing Evil... Try talking, no effect? Smite Evil.

What matters in this post is mostly Pally vs Pally, but this is quite the expected behaviour of any Paladin. It may even happen that the Paladins are from different churchs of different Gods. Unlikely to happen but could, pehaps a those Gods are sworn enemies or Rivals... In this case, the chances to see a non-smiting fight are pretty hard...

kpenguin
2007-11-11, 12:45 AM
As a DM, i'd personally rule in both cases that there was nothing inherently evil nor fall worthy about those events. What I don't like about the paladin class is that players of it tend to put their alignment before their paladin's deity, causing them to act in ways that either make them fall or cause absolute chaos. You aren't a paladin of Lawful Good, your a holy warrior of a god of righteousness and purity, act like it dammit. If your Deity's tenets are Fairness and always giving a second chance, "SUFFER NOT THE EVIL TO LIVE! STRIKE DOWN THE CURSED ONES!" Prepare to fall so hard your children will feel it.

Interesting. As a DM, I take the opposite view: paladins serve law and good above all, not their deity. If a god's tenets are in conflict with the powers of law and good, then it is the paladin's duty to defy them.

KillianHawkeye
2007-11-11, 09:54 AM
Paladins on opposing sides of a conflict would make the perfect negotiators. Once they recognized each other, they would most likely work together to try to find a nonviolent way to settle the dispute.

Aquaseafoam
2007-11-11, 02:44 PM
Lets use my campaign setting for example. My Moon Goddess, Lawful Good, and my Sun God, Neutral Good. Both deities have a pretty strong dislike for each other. (Perhaps even magnified by them being siblings. :smalleek: ) If a Lunar Paladin and a Solar Paladin met on the field of battle, they would more than likely take it upon themselves to strike down the other paladin. I've put a whole lot more detail into my pantheon than wizards has into the core pantheon though, so its really up to how the DM sees that particular deity.

As far as the core pantheon goes. If a Paladin of Pelor and a Paladin of Heironeous met on the field of battle, they would likely be forced to continue the battle. Why? It is their duty as servants of their church/lord/god/whatever to fight in this conflict. They can't suddenly decide, "Whoops! They have paladins fighting for them! Seeya Later Milord! Good luck with the battle!" (I'd love to use a real world example here, but the rules of this forum prohibit it. It's for the best, really.) Also, if you know anything about medieval battles, there is near nothing that can stop one in progress. Heres the ways I could see a paladin acting inappropriately. Failure to uphold your Duty, ceasing to fight in the middle of a battle is treason. Desertion, refusing to fight as you have sworn to do. Insubordination, refusing to follow orders to engage the enemy. Treason, consorting with the enemy to undermine the church/lord/god/whatever's efforts.

Perhaps the best option for the paladins would be to avoid fighting each other in the Melee, then petition each others lord. But if the order came down to continue fighting, then they would be forced to cross blades.

#Raptor
2007-12-11, 06:32 PM
Sorry for reviving this thread (although i believe it's not zombiefied yet... its just about a month old.)


Sounds about right. I like the idea of paladins being specificly tied to the cause of a god. (As opposed to the basic, RAW, 'Paladin's don't need a god. They are just devoted to good')

A paladin of Heironeous is going to be a bringer of justice, and is required (even more so than other paladins, since this is Heironeous specielty) to act with honour and chivalry.

A Paladin of Pelor would be just generally good, but probably bias more towards allowing foes to surrender, redeem themselves, etc.

Anyone else got cool idea's for Religous Paladins?

(p.s. You want a detect/smite pally, i'd suggest st. cuthbert. He seems like the sort for that)

Looking through the phb, i just noticed something... interesting.

Wee Jas is lawful neutral. Like St. Cuthbert.

So.. the ruby one, the goddess of death - could have paladins devoted to her.
In fact, using the LE/CG/CE paladin variants she is the only core god wich could have paladins of honor AND paladins of tyranny. How weird is that?
Clerics of St. Cuthbert may only be neutral or good, but there are no such restrictions on clerics of Wee Jas, i think it's fair to assume that the same restrictions/non-restrictions apply to paladins.

Other possible and (i believe) rarely used paladin deitys are Ehlonna and Garl Glittergold, both are NG.

The paladin of GG i can imagine, pretty much the same as a cleric of GG.
But Ehlonna and Wee Jas?

Wee Jas... looking at the expanded description in Complete Divine, im not sure how that'd work out. A paladin that turns undead, but is fascinated with magic that breaks the boundarys of life and death.
I'll definitely have to play a pally of Wee Jas someday... soon. I love the idea, thought i'm not 100% sure how to RP it yet.

zaei
2007-12-11, 06:44 PM
Sorry for reviving this thread (although i believe it's not zombiefied yet... its just about a month old.)



Looking through the phb, i just noticed something... interesting.

Wee Jas is lawful neutral. Like St. Cuthbert.

So.. the ruby one, the goddess of death - could have paladins devoted to her.
In fact, using the LE/CG/CE paladin variants she is the only core god wich could have paladins of honor AND paladins of tyranny. How weird is that?
Clerics of St. Cuthbert may only be neutral or good, but there are no such restrictions on clerics of Wee Jas, i think it's fair to assume that the same restrictions/non-restrictions apply to paladins.

Other possible and (i believe) rarely used paladin deitys are Ehlonna and Garl Glittergold, both are NG.

The paladin of GG i can imagine, pretty much the same as a cleric of GG.
But Ehlonna and Wee Jas?

Wee Jas... looking at the expanded description in Complete Divine, im not sure how that'd work out. A paladin that turns undead, but is fascinated with magic that breaks the boundarys of life and death.
I'll definitely have to play a pally of Wee Jas someday... soon. I love the idea, thought i'm not 100% sure how to RP it yet.
Something I've noticed before, but paladins aren't actually restricted to being within one step of their deity's alignment, by RAW. Paladin of Nerull? Erythnul? have at ya!

tyckspoon
2007-12-11, 06:53 PM
Something I've noticed before, but paladins aren't actually restricted to being within one step of their deity's alignment, by RAW. Paladin of Nerull? Erythnul? have at ya!

This would be because, by RAW, paladins do not have to follow a god at all. They can choose to worship whoever they want. It would make sense for them to follow gods of the same alignment or that follow the one-step rules, but that has no effect on the paladin's powers.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-11, 07:00 PM
Forgotten Realms divine magic rules for the win.

Xefas
2007-12-11, 07:02 PM
Wee Jas... looking at the expanded description in Complete Divine, im not sure how that'd work out. A paladin that turns undead, but is fascinated with magic that breaks the boundarys of life and death.
I'll definitely have to play a pally of Wee Jas someday... soon. I love the idea, thought i'm not 100% sure how to RP it yet.

The Tome of Battle has the Ruby Knight Vindicator, a combo of Cleric and Crusader (the replacement paladin), who venerates Wee Jas.

They're essentially the muscle of the church, guarding religious VIPs and getting sent out on missions to beat the stuffing out of powerful enemies of the clergy.

TimeWizard
2007-12-11, 07:03 PM
You could of course have a paladin do any action that is a direct request from his/her god without fear of falling. Paladinhood is not a driver's liscense, you get your powers from God, it is up to that god's discretion to decide what dictates falling. So Wee Jas might decide what she really needs right now are some LG guys and gals running around fighting the good fight for her. IMO, the idea of Paladins is inseperable from the Crusaders and Templars that they are based on, but now we have the Knight, so I like to think of Paladins as agents of God.

hylian chozo
2007-12-11, 10:48 PM
So, if a paladin who has no god falls, who exactly is doing the pushing?