What does a "patron deity" mean, in context of alignment?

[H_H_F_F]

If a feat or a prc etcetera has the restriction "patron deity X", or "deity: X" and the character taking it is not a cleric, what alignment should they have? Could an LG paladin, for example, have Kord as their deity?

[Tzardok]

If a feat or a prc etcetera has the restriction "patron deity X", or "deity: X" and the character taking it is not a cleric, what alignment should they have? Could an LG paladin, for example, have Kord as their deity?

Depends. Usually, the alignment restrictions of a given deity only apply to their clerics and any prestige classes that mention them, but in the Forgotten Realms they apply (at least) to anyone using divine magic and (at worst) to everyone, and in Eberron they don't apply at all. In short, ask your DM how his setting handles it.

[H_H_F_F]

Depends. Usually, the alignment restrictions of a given deity only apply to their clerics and any prestige classes that mention them, but in the Forgotten Realms they apply (at least) to anyone using divine magic and (at worst) to everyone, and in Eberron they don't apply at all. In short, ask your DM how his setting handles it.

That's very useful. Thanks!

Do you perhaps have any references for the forgotten realms / eberron ruling?

[denthor]

Kord has chaotic Good alignment

3 alignments are around chaotic good/neutral are 2 of them. The 3rd is neutral good. Those are the 3 alignments of your priest. Unless someone is converting over they are of those 3 alignments or are working towards them.

[ShurikVch]

but in the Forgotten Realms they apply (at least) to anyone using divine magic
:smallconfused: Guardians of Light (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Guardians_of_Light) and Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sisters_and_Brothers_of_the_Ruby_Rose) are both paladin orders dedicated to CG deities
Does it mean they're consist of Paladins of Freedom (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)?
Or, maybe, non-spellcasting Paladins?

[Tzardok]

That's very useful. Thanks!

Do you perhaps have any references for the forgotten realms / eberron ruling?

Eberron Campaign Setting mentions in Chapter 2, under Clerics and Corruption, that clerics can have any alignment and are able to cast spells of any alignment, and that you can't lose your class abilities by sinning against your religion's proscriptions.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting describes in Chapter 1, under Religion, that every character has to choose a deity and has to follow the alignment restrictions for clerics for that. Otherwise they will be judged faithless after death and can't be resurrected by anything less than Wish or a Miracle.

Those are the two extremes. Your world is likely somewhere in between.

[liquidformat]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting describes in Chapter 1, under Religion, that every character has to choose a deity and has to follow the alignment restrictions for clerics for that. Otherwise they will be judged faithless after death and can't be resurrected by anything less than Wish or a Miracle.

And yet that isn't a hard ruling either or as pointed to above you wouldn't have Paladin organizations of CG gods...

A lot of issues come up because notion of a paladin being a knight of lawful good ideals directly competes with the notion of a paladin is a knight of a god in a lot of the source material. WotC never nailed down completely which a paladin was supposed to be so kept flip flopping back and forth between both which causes odd issues.

[Tzardok]

The Guardians of Light do not appear in any 3e work. I can't say anything about older editions.

Sune's description in both Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Faiths & Pantheons explicitely say that Paladins may choose her as a patron despite being Lawful Good.
Don't forget: There is a sizeable minority of deities with stricter or looser alignment restrictions on their servants than simply "one step removed". Mystra, for example, allows worshippers of all Good and all Lawful alignments, out of respect for her Lawful Neutral precedessor. Chronepsis on the other hand only takes True Neutral worshippers and no other alignments. Sune's restrictions are simply written as: LG (only Paladins), NG, CG, CN.

[Particle_Man]

A Lawful Good half-orc paladin of Gruumsh would be amusing. :smallbiggrin:

In Greyhawk I don't think it is defined beyond some classes like clerics.

And there are race-based gods, so presumably a God of the Elves could be a patron of all the elves, even the ones that don't live up to the god's CG ethos.

[liquidformat]

And there are race-based gods, so presumably a God of the Elves could be a patron of all the elves, even the ones that don't live up to the god's CG ethos.

Except for Drow because of elven racism...

[Particle_Man]

Except for Drow because of elven racism...

It is interesting that the Dwarven and Gnome pantheons also have their "evil god". Not sure if halflings do.

But in any case, one could have a NE high elven assassin that has Corellan Larethian as a patron, but wouldn't exactly be a model worshipper. "This god was good enough for my grandparents and parents, and is good enough for me! I am proud of my elven heritage! Oh, and if you want me to kill the Mayor, that costs triple."

[liquidformat]

It is interesting that the Dwarven and Gnome pantheons also have their "evil god". Not sure if halflings do.

But in any case, one could have a NE high elven assassin that has Corellan Larethian as a patron, but wouldn't exactly be a model worshipper. "This god was good enough for my grandparents and parents, and is good enough for me! I am proud of my elven heritage! Oh, and if you want me to kill the Mayor, that costs triple."

Is there an 'evil' gnome group? I had thought it was supposed to be Svirfneblin but they are 'usually Neutral'.

The Duergar are flagged as the 'evil' dwarves but they really aren't they are 'often evil' not even enough to get a usual and they are portrayed as being more belligerent and not liking other dwarves more than being evil.

There is an evil halfling group, I am brain farting the name but they are from BoVD and are cannibals. I have played as one a few times quite a bit of fun!

[Tzardok]

Is there an 'evil' gnome group? I had thought it was supposed to be Svirfneblin but they are 'usually Neutral'.

Urdlen (the evil gnome god, at least before Races of Stone replaced most the Gnome pantheon with "new" and "original" substitutes) has amongst his worsphippers spriggans, a Chaotic Evil fey species, that (at least in Faerûn) is the result of gnomes being tortured to insanity and experimented on by human archmages of the empire of Netheril.


The Duergar are flagged as the 'evil' dwarves but they really aren't they are 'often evil' not even enough to get a usual and they are portrayed as being more belligerent and not liking other dwarves more than being evil.

A slave-holding society dedicated to a god that preaches mirthless drudgery, faciliates holding grudges and bans fun? Sounds evil to me.


There is an evil halfling group, I am brain farting the name but they are from BoVD and are cannibals. I have played as one a few times quite a bit of fun!

They are called Jerren. No god, neither from the BoVD, nor from the older halfling pantheon, nor from the "new" and "original" one in Races of the Wild, claims them. Which makes sense, as BoVD is the only book that mentions them, and it is not really full of racial gods.

[Saintheart]

It is interesting that the Dwarven and Gnome pantheons also have their "evil god". Not sure if halflings do.

No, halflings don't. They're unique among the various base races in Faerun for that. As close as they get is the Halfling god of death, Urogalan (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Urogalan), and even then he's basically the short version of Kelemvor.

[hamishspence]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting describes in Chapter 1, under Religion, that every character has to choose a deity and has to follow the alignment restrictions for clerics for that. Otherwise they will be judged faithless after death and can't be resurrected by anything less than Wish or a Miracle.

Nope - page 39:

"Of more concern to most adventurers, a character who dies without a patron deity cannot be raised from the dead by any means short of a miracle or wish. When such a character dies, he is considered one of the Faithless, and his soul is used to form part of the wall around the realm of Kelemvor, god of the dead."

"When choosing a patron if you are a divine spellcaster, you follow the "one-step rule" described in the Alignment subsection of the Cleric section of Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook: Your alignment may be up to one "step" away from your patron's."



It does say that it is practically unheard of to have a patron with a radically different alignment from their own - even "essentially impossible" for a LG person to have an Evil patron, for example - but not that people who are not divine spellcasters have to follow the One Step Rule or be judged Faithless.


It might, however, be considered a betrayal of the deity to change alignment to a massively inappropriate one while still worshipping the deity - especially if the alignment-changing actions are radically opposed to the deity's dogma.

In that case, such a person would be False, not Faithless, and receive punishment from Kelemvor appropriate to their actions. Page 259 discusses the False.

[aglondier]

Each god or goddess has laid out what it considers appropriate behaviours and beliefs for their followers. These rules or Commandments frame a system of morality that the game calls Alignment.
A patron diety would have a system of morality that you agree with and live your life by, and thus your Alignment would be a pretty close match to your God(dess).
A lawful good character would find the ideals espoused by Gruumsh to be the antithesis of what he stands for. Likewise, he would struggle with having Kord for a patron. Their basic ideals don't match up, so living your life by their example just doesn't work.

[Particle_Man]

Yet there are lawful good paladins of chaotic good deities.

[ShurikVch]

The Guardians of Light do not appear in any 3e work. I can't say anything about older editions.
Well, also, we have Order of the Crescent Moon:

Crescent Moon Knight
(Paladin)
These unusual paladins of the Order of the Crescent Moon serve either Clangeddin Silverbeard or Selûne. The order was founded by an alliance between humans and dwarves to defeat marauding lycanthropes; now, the descendants of the founders teach old family skills and pass heirlooms to the next generation of defenders.
Hit Die: d10.
REQUIREMENTS
To take a Crescent Moon Knight paladin substitution level, a character must have Clangeddin Silverbeard or Selûne as his patron deity, be related to or a close friend of one of the founding families, and be about to take his 4th, 6th, or 10th level of paladin.
Overall, it would be kinda sad if Selûne couldn't have Paladins, because initially she was one of two deities who can - i. e. all other deities couldn't

Moreover, Corellon Larethian - in his CG glory - sponsoring paladins too!

Finally, according to the Hero Builders Guidebook and Races of the Wild, Corellon Larethian - a CG deity - has paladins. Although these are "core D&D" sources I don't see why this wouldn't hold true for the Realms as well.

[hamishspence]

A lawful good character would find the ideals espoused by Gruumsh to be the antithesis of what he stands for. Likewise, he would struggle with having Kord for a patron. Their basic ideals don't match up, so living your life by their example just doesn't work.Plus Kord, despite being CG, has listed in his statblock, for "cleric alignments"- CG, NG, and LG, instead of the normal CG, NG, CN.

In general the trend seems to be that it's a lot easier to be a LG divine spellcaster of a CG deity, than any other "more than one step" gap - because CG is tolerant of Lawfulness.

[Quertus]

And there are race-based gods, so presumably a God of the Elves could be a patron of all the elves, even the ones that don't live up to the god's CG ethos.


Except for Drow because of elven racism...

"Drow" means worshipper of Lolth. It would be… odd… to worship Lolth *and* the traditional elven gods.

[Tzardok]

Nope - page 39:

"Of more concern to most adventurers, a character who dies without a patron deity cannot be raised from the dead by any means short of a miracle or wish. When such a character dies, he is considered one of the Faithless, and his soul is used to form part of the wall around the realm of Kelemvor, god of the dead."

"When choosing a patron if you are a divine spellcaster, you follow the "one-step rule" described in the Alignment subsection of the Cleric section of Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook: Your alignment may be up to one "step" away from your patron's."


You are correct. I skimmed over the "almost" in the "almost unheard of" and extrapolated from there.


Plus Kord, despite being CG, has listed in his statblock, for "cleric alignments"- CG, NG, and LG, instead of the normal CG, NG, CN.

In general the trend seems to be that it's a lot easier to be a LG divine spellcaster of a CG deity, than any other "more than one step" gap - because CG is tolerant of Lawfulness.

A chaotic good deity having exact the same list of available alignments as a neutral good one, with no justifications or explanations in the descriptive text. And unlike with St. Cuthbert, whose special restrictions are mentioned in the Player's Handbook, no other description of Kord mentions that. I would rule it a misprint.

[hamishspence]

A chaotic good deity having exact the same list of available alignments as a neutral good one, with no justifications or explanations in the descriptive text. And unlike with St. Cuthbert, whose special restrictions are mentioned in the Player's Handbook, no other description of Kord mentions that. I would rule it a misprint.

There's plenty of deities with similar breaks of the "one step rule" in Faiths and Pantheons too. Unless an errata specifically states that Kord's list is wrong - then it's canon.

St Cuthbert's special cleric alignment restriction - no LE clerics - is not mentioned in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB - only in Deities and Demigods. But it's mentioned in a way that doesn't suggest he's unique:

page 56:

"Some deities do not accept clerics of all alignments that are within one step of their own. For example, St. Cuthbert, a lawful neutral deity, only has lawful good or lawful neutral clerics".

And it isn't mentioned in the fluff of his section itself on page 91 - only in the "Cleric Alignments" part having only two entries.

And Kord isn't the only Deities and Demigods one with an unusual combination, that isn't mentioned in the "fluff section". Bahamut has it too. Unlike Tiamat, who specifically has "only accepts evil clerics" in the fluff section as well as at the start in the "Cleric Alignments" bit, Bahamut's only accepting LG and NG clerics is only in the starting part - it's not specified in the fluff part.


Yet, as the mirror of Tiamat, it is perfectly logical for him to only allow 2 good alignments, to her 2 evil alignments.


So a deity's "cleric alignments available" only needs to be in the start part of the statblock, to count. It doesn't need a "Bahamut does not accept LN clerics" bit written down later - just the absence of LN from "Cleric Alignments" is enough.

[H_H_F_F]

St Cuthbert's special cleric alignment restriction - no LE clerics - is not mentioned in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB - only in Deities and Demigods. But it's mentioned in a way that doesn't suggest he's unique.


My copy of the PHB explicitly states "his clerics cannot be evil", and I could swear my 3.0 Hebrew PHB says the same thing - I've always known St. Cuthbert can't have evil clerics (one of my first characters, and my first long term one, was a cleric of SB) and I only owned the PHB at the time.

[hamishspence]

Fair enough - I was looking at the cleric section rather than the later section with the deities.


Still - the Bahamut example does demonstrate that you don't need it to be in the "fluff section" that he doesn't allow LN clerics - to be the case - just LN being absent from "Cleric Alignments" is enough.

Some TN deities expand the list past "1 step".

Gond, for example, has "cleric alignments - Any".

Io, in Draconomicon, has all 9 alignments listed.

So there's precedent for more lenient alignments as well as more restrictive alignments.

As such, there's nothing "RAW-wrong" about Kord's cleric alignments allowed being LG, NG, and CG, summarisable as "Any Good" - even if it's odd.



Oddly, Dragon Magazine's Core Beliefs: St Cuthbert, takes it upon itself to say he's really "LG with strong LN tendencies" and claim that the "LN with good tendencies" idea originated with bookish sages. And at the same time it says that a tiny group of extremists that revere St. Cuthbert are LE, though it makes them a fundamentalist cult rather than part of the mainstream church. It keeps the "no NG clerics" rule though.

So if you were using Dragon Magazine's version and allowing it to override the PHB, you could have a LE St. Cuthbert cleric.

[Tzardok]

There's plenty of deities with similar breaks of the "one step rule" in Faiths and Pantheons too. Unless an errata specifically states that Kord's list is wrong - then it's canon.

St Cuthbert's special cleric alignment restriction - no LE clerics - is not mentioned in the 3.0 or 3.5 PHB - only in Deities and Demigods. But it's mentioned in a way that doesn't suggest he's unique:

page 56:

"Some deities do not accept clerics of all alignments that are within one step of their own. For example, St. Cuthbert, a lawful neutral deity, only has lawful good or lawful neutral clerics".

And it isn't mentioned in the fluff of his section itself on page 91 - only in the "Cleric Alignments" part having only two entries.

And Kord isn't the only Deities and Demigods one with an unusual combination, that isn't mentioned in the "fluff section". Bahamut has it too. Unlike Tiamat, who specifically has "only accepts evil clerics" in the fluff section as well as at the start in the "Cleric Alignments" bit, Bahamut's only accepting LG and NG clerics is only in the starting part - it's not specified in the fluff part.


Yet, as the mirror of Tiamat, it is perfectly logical for him to only allow 2 good alignments, to her 2 evil alignments.


So a deity's "cleric alignments available" only needs to be in the start part of the statblock, to count. It doesn't need a "Bahamut does not accept LN clerics" bit written down later - just the absence of LN from "Cleric Alignments" is enough.

With Bahamut, it can be, as you said, inferred from Tiamat's. But is there anything in Kord's dogma that makes it likely to be that way? Is there anything that says "by the way, I hate it when my clerics aren't good"? If it were that way, why isn't it mentioned in the Player's Handbook, or anywhere else? Are DM that don't own Deities and Demigods just supposed to telepathically know that it's supposed to be that way? Why does the description of Kord's church in Complete Champion have an affiliation bonus for being chaotic and a massive affiliation penalty for being lawful? A missprint simply makes more sense than the alternative.

To just unreflectingly take everything printed as the gospel truth without even thinking about the possibility of an error is the kind of mistake that makes people argue that the swordsage gets 6x skill points on first level, unlike any other class that only gets 4x. That also never got errata. It's still obviously not right.