Not really a Bladesinger...

[adb82]

I was talking with some friends lately about the bladesinger seem not so good at hight lv to be in melee, or better said, even it is kinda good, there are many classes that can do it better, while his destiny seem to be played like a wizard with a huge AC. For change this assuption i tryed to make this build work and i would like to have your feedback about it.

The problem about Bladesinger DPR is, in my opinion, that focusing on Shadow Blade or Tenser he cant concentrate on damage concentration spells, other problem is that he dont have any use of his bonus action except misty step.

For give him those things i though that cleric would be a perfect choice, spirtual guardian and spiritual weapon do exactly what he need leaving also the spell slot progression of a full caster, so i started to add 5 lv of clerics.

Reading about cleric's domain i found the death one very interesting for my purpose, reaper indeed give him the chance to target 2 creature with a necromancy cantrip instead than one! If we give up the bladetrips we can in practice double cast toll to death or chill touch while still swinging one hit with the sword (bcs bladesinger give up one of his attacks for a cantrip, but that cantrip will have double target because of reaper). In this way we have to give up both, SB and BB, that seem crazy, but the DPR at mid and hight lv grow up a lot if compared with a pure bladesinger, around 33% better or more, and this solve also the problem with bladesong, SB, Tenser trasformation etc that all are a bonus action, while spirtual guardians is not.

If we consider a bladesinger of 11th lv with a 3th lv SB he gonna deal around 11d8 per round + 2 times dex if the DM allow to use SB and BB together, if not it go down to 9d8 + 2 times dex. Sometime he can upcast SB to 5th lv but normally it dont happen so often. so we can consider its DPR between 60 and 65 (i considered a d8 as a 5).
This Bladecleric has 1d8 from his weapon + dex, 5d8 from spiritual guardians (that ill apply only one time on this exemple but that probably will affect much more than one enemy) that can easly be upcasted as it have free highter slots, 3d8 from spiritual weapoon, + 6d12 from doubling toll to dead, we are few hp under 100 if im not wrong (i considered a d12 as a 7) and he can still apply 25/30 damage at will couple times a day. This seem compete with the fighter, even probably is still below as DPR bcs fighters have really few resources to take care about abd he recover action surge for short rest, but he still have all the utilities spells a wizard have, and he can focus on out of combat utilities because in combat he gonna use really few spells (spirit guardians, spirtual weapon, counterspell, fireball, misty step, SB probably till lv 11, and i supose nothing else, maybe anymate dead but more for themaitc reason than for some particolar sinergy). The fact that he can heal himself should help with low hp and give him some survaivability and sometimes he can even choose to dodge and just deal damage with guardians and spiritual weapon if there is something hitting too hard and he just want to tank more.

Im figuring an hight elf with this stats:

STR 8, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 8.
feats +2 wis at 4th lv, +2 int at 10th lv, +2 wis at 14th lv.
would be nice to find space for warcaster but probably its possible only with 8 lv dip in cleric, that its other option im considering.

Thematically also look great, spiritual weapon help with the concept and reskilling spiritual guardian as energie's small shadowblades floating around you make it really focus on blades. Also its one of the few characters that can use a sword and deal a range damage in the same turn, that for me its really a bladesinger thing (while the bladesinger will always use his cantrip for BB) and he can be a death emissary, an assasin or just a beliver in some deity that treat life and death as two face of the same coin, something similar with the cult Arya Stark find in games of throne it can make lots of fluf i think.

Mecanically its similar to many wizard/cleric builds, but it use dex and light armor instead than str and heavy armor for the same huge AC, and this is better because it dont have disadvantage on stealth checks and its armor dont get affected by things like "heat metal", plus it still keep the + int on concentration saves. But the real different sinergy with other wizard/clerics build is to can make an attack with the sword and still cast a double cantrip in the same turn.

The mean downside is the MADness of this build and the fact that come up late, but in the first 6th lv of bladesinger it shouldnt be so terrible, than from 7th to 11th lv im not really sure if it lose too much compared with a bladesinger but at a first sight it didnt look so bad (lv 7 and lv 8 hurt a bit i suppose), of course he not gonna use stuff like haste, hypnotic pattern, wall of force, bigby's etc etc, all very powerfull spells, but that are far from my concept of bladesinger anyway. Other downside is that the contribution of the sword to the DPR is really low if we dont consider spiritual weapon, but if there are things like flametongue available in the campaign it can become better lol.

What do you think about? Do you think the build work enough?

It work better with 5 or with 8 lv of cleric? I know its not that much but id like to get that +1d8 on melee attacks even just for thematic reasons, in any case after BS 6/DC 5 will get first to BS 10 for damage reduction so i dont think i have space for 3 more lv of cleric.

Do you have any stat suggestion for a Vhuman?

Is this a character you would like to play?

Am i missing some criticism about this build?

Thanks everyone.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, the main thing I notice is, your routine example was

1 * +8 weapon attack 1d8+3
1 * +9 spell attack 3d8+4
2 * DC 17 Toll the Dead 3d12
1 * DC 17 Spirit Guardians 5d8

so 4d8+7 in attacks, 5d8+6d12 in spells, notice toll the dead is save for none... But assuming they fail all saves, its an avg of 25 in attacks + 61.5 = 86.5

And you used a 7th lvl spell

For this assumption you considered Reaper trigging, thus two enemies must be side by side to each other, so GFB is pretty good in this scenario, so with a straight BS 14

8, 15(+2), 14, 15(+1), 10, 8 | EA (Dex) @4, +2 Dex @8, +2 Int @12,

Going for the now "default" Spirit Shroud, and using a 5th lvl spell, your routine would be

1 * +10 weapon attack 1d6+3d8+9+2d8+2d8+5 (GFB)
1 * +10 weapon attack 1d6+3d8+9 (Dex+Int)
1 * +10 weapon attack 1d6+3d8+4 (off hand)

3d6+13d8+27 = 10.5+58.5+27 = 96 spending a lower level slot and with better accuracy.

This is not a proper damage comparison of the two "builds" (I didn't really do a build, just some barebones) since we didn't take attack or spell accuracy into consideration, but since straight BS has better accuracy and damage using a lower level spell slot for his buff, and toll the dead is save for none, I think its enough to show that in most scenarios, straight BS will be doing more damage.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure what your goal is.


If you want your Wizard to play less like a typical spellcaster with huge AC and more like a melee combatant, isn't taking Cleric levels so you can have access to better Concentration spells and better interact-with-your-magic features contrary to your objectives?

[Merudo]

In my opinion, there are three reasons to go Bladesinger:


Impressive defensive boost at level 2: Bladesong gives +int to AC and concentration, +10 speed, and advantage to Acrobatics. Light Armor proficiency means you can skip Mage Armor: this saves a spell known, a spell slot a day, and a spell prepared, at the cost of 1AC.

Decent at-will damage at level 6: adding a Light Crossbow shot or a Rapier slash to a cantrip can increase damage by 60-70% damage easily.

Potential to invest into excellent physical damage: by combining concentration spells such as Shadow Blade / Haste / Improved Invisibility on yourself & investing into multiclassing such as grabbing a Fighting Style or feats such as Crossbow Expert, you can get top notch DPR.


I believe 1) and 2) are excellent for any type of Wizard. Bladesong is huge for dangerous fights, providing arguably the best Wizard subclass defensive buff while it is active. And Extra Attack at level 6 significantly improve your DPS during long adventuring days.

I'm not sold on 3) at all. Investing in physical DPR looks like a trap to me:


A Wizard's concentration is precious: control spells such as Hypnotic Pattern & Wall of Force tend to be more effective than raw damage, and when I cast buffs I'd rather cast them on the party's Barbarian or Rogue instead of myself

A Wizard's progression is amazing: it's hard to justify delaying a Wizard's progression by multiclassing, especially since you get no real benefits from additional armor or shield proficiencies because they are not compatible with Bladesong.

A Bladesinger wants to invest in Intelligence: intelligence increases a Bladesinger's spellcasting as well as the defensive benefits of Bladesong. It's hard to justify investing in Dex or combat feats until Intelligence is at 20.