Taking Epic Weapon Focus for touch and ranged spells

[Jazath]

Would it be possible to take Greater weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus for Ranged and Touch Spells? I have levels in Fighter, but i don't believe I can pick those feats with that class....

[InvisibleBison]

No, because both of those feats require Weapon Focus with the selected weapon and neither ranged spells nor touch spells are valid options for Weapon Focus (according to the PHB, at least; it's possible some splatbook I'm not familiar with says otherwise).

[Jazath]

No, because both of those feats require Weapon Focus with the selected weapon and neither ranged spells nor touch spells are valid options for Weapon Focus (according to the PHB, at least; it's possible some splatbook I'm not familiar with says otherwise).

Check out Complete Arcane


Ranged Spell Specialization
( Complete Arcane, p. 82)

[General]

You deal more damage with ranged touch attack spells.

Prerequisite
Weapon Focus (PH) (ranged spell) , caster level 4th,

Benefit
Damage-dealing spells that require a ranged touch attack roll gain a +2 bonus on the damage they deal. This extra damage applies only to the first successful attack of spells that create multiple rays or missiles, or to the first round of damage for spells that deal damage over multiple rounds on a single successful attack (such as Melf's acid arrow). Because you must be able to strike precisely, the extra damage applies only to targets within 30 feet. Only spells that deal hit point damage can be affected by this feat.

Touch Spell Specialization
( Complete Arcane, p. 83)

[General]

You deal extra damage with touch spells.

Prerequisite
Weapon Focus (PH) (touch spell) , caster level 4th,

Benefit
Damage-dealing spells that require a melee touch attack roll gain a +2 bonus on the damage they deal. This extra damage applies only to the fi rst successful attack of spells that allow multiple touch attacks (such as chill touch). Only spells that deal hit point damage can be affected by this feat.

You can see in perquisites Weapon focus (Ranged Spell) or Weapon Focus (Touch Spell)

[InvisibleBison]

Check out Complete Arcane


You can see in perquisites Weapon focus (Ranged Spell) or Weapon Focus (Touch Spell)

The "Feats and Weaponlike Spells" section in Complete Arcane gives permission to take Weapon Focus with those two kinds of spells; it doesn't give permission to take Greater or Epic Weapon Focus.

[Silent Alarm]

The "Feats and Weaponlike Spells" section in Complete Arcane gives permission to take Weapon Focus with those two kinds of spells; it doesn't give permission to take Greater or Epic Weapon Focus.

That isn't how Greater Weapon Focus, or Epic Weapon Focus work. You've already selected the "weapon" using Weapon Focus, all Greater Weapon Focus, and Epic Weapon Focus do is increase the bonus granted by Weapon Focus. In fact, Weapon Focus explicitly calls out that Spellcasters can select "Rays" if they are so inclined.

That said, no. You cannot take Greater Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus without 8 levels of Fighter.

[Biggus]

That said, no. You cannot take Greater Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus without 8 levels of Fighter.

He did say in the OP that he has Fighter levels...

But I have to agree that you can't take GWF for touch attacks because it's a core feat in 3.5, so if they'd have meant it to be available for those purposes there's no reason they wouldn't have listed it in Complete Arcane.

[Silent Alarm]

But I have to agree that you can't take GWF for touch attacks because it's a core feat in 3.5, so if they'd have meant it to be available for those purposes there's no reason they wouldn't have listed it in Complete Arcane.

You are entitled to rule it however you want at your table, but the simple fact of the matter is that GWF and EWF do not care what weapon you took for Weapon Focus to qualify for them as they only apply to the selected weapon for Weapon Focus.

[Darg]

I have to agree with Silent Alarm on this one. Complete Arcane says these spells function as weapons in certain aspects. There is no language that restricts the list to only those mentioned in CArc.

[Biggus]

You are entitled to rule it however you want at your table, but the simple fact of the matter is that GWF and EWF do not care what weapon you took for Weapon Focus to qualify for them as they only apply to the selected weapon for Weapon Focus.

I don't understand what you mean here. I think you may have misunderstood me, can you explain in a bit more detail?


I have to agree with Silent Alarm on this one. Complete Arcane says these spells function as weapons in certain aspects. There is no language that restricts the list to only those mentioned in CArc.


several feats that improve weapon performance can be used to enhance weaponlike spells [...]

ELIGIBLE FEATS
The following feats can be chosen to enhance the performance of weaponlike spells in combat

This is quite clear, the eligible feats are the ones listed. It makes no mention of any other feats being allowed, so to allow any others is a house rule. The rules tell you what you can do, not what you can't.

I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to allow you to take GWF/EWF, but RAW you can't.

[Silent Alarm]

I don't understand what you mean here. I think you may have misunderstood me, can you explain in a bit more detail?
If I am misunderstanding you YOU need to clarify where you believe I misunderstood you. Adding more context to my statement will only muddy things up. Given that your next line essentially reaffirms my understanding of your position, I don't think I misunderstood you.

I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to allow you to take GWF/EWF, but RAW you can't.
This isn't even about Weapon-like spells or the eligible feat list since we have established that Weapon Focus is an eligible feat, this is about whether or not GWF/EWF can be applied to Weapon Focus for Weapon-Like spells, to which the feats in question say "Yes, you can." Not because it doesn't say you can, but because the feat says clear as crystal:

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus (see below).
The feat doesn't care what the weapon is, all that matters is that the bonus is being applied to the same weapon.

[Darg]

This is quite clear, the eligible feats are the ones listed. It makes no mention of any other feats being allowed, so to allow any others is a house rule. The rules tell you what you can do, not what you can't.

I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to allow you to take GWF/EWF, but RAW you can't.

So, I need permission for my ranged touch spells to benefit from improved precise shot? CArc already gave permission by not limiting the list of feats to only those listed. The PHB already classifies rays as a weapon for feat selection. The only new additions are touch spells and non-ray ranged spells. CArc treats them the same. Therefore CArc does not limit rays, but instead adds to the number of feats that spells can benefit.

Half the feats didn't even "add" functionality. By RAW, without CArc you still benefit from IUA and stunning fist from the rules found in the PHB. By RAW touch spells benefit from weapon finesse by virtue of being delivered through a natural weapon.

By RAW you can take the feats. CArc says, "Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects." This gives explicit permission that ranged and touch spells count as weapons when it comes to feats. What comes after does not limit this scope.

[Jazath]

I have to agree with Silent Alarm on this one. Complete Arcane says these spells function as weapons in certain aspects. There is no language that restricts the list to only those mentioned in CArc.

I think I have to agree. Further study I see where you say you CAN do something, it doesn't say you CAN'T use weapon focus.

And in theory and practice. Someone could very well use their spells as weapons with greater focus and epic focus!