PDA

View Full Version : Cthulhu [BBEG]



Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-10, 09:47 AM
Here's a DnD writeup of our favorite Mr Tentacle. He can easily destroy modern earth and he needs a party well on their way of becoming demigods to be defeated. Plus, he's seriously scary if you're not prepared for him.



Cthulhu
Gargantuan Aberration (Elder Evil)
HD 35d8+805 (1085 HP)
Speed 60 ft. (10 squares); Spatial Distortion 1 mile
Init: +14
AC 88; touch 66; flat-footed: never
(45 natural, 14 dex, 23 insight, -4 sight, elude touch)
BAB +35; Grp +74
Attack Slam +58 melee (6d6+40, 18-20/2x) OR
Tentacle +58 melee touch (2d6+18, 18-20/2x plus 1d6 wisdom drain)
Full-Attack 2 slams + 10 tentacles
Space 60 ft.; Reach 60 ft.
Special Attacks Black Tentacles, Spatial Distortion, Form of Madness, SLAs, Spellcasting.
Special Qualities Aberration Traits, Elder Evil traits, DR 31/Epic Chaos and Deep Crystal, SR 65, Regeneration 23, Fast Healing 46, Immunities, Incomprehensible, Elude Touch, Reality Screams,
Saves Fort +42 Ref +33 Will +34
Abilities Str 64, Dex 38, Con 56, Int 57, Wis 40, Cha 32
Skills
Feats SU transformation: Reality Maelstrom/Disintegrate/Dominate Monster, Thick Skinned 3x, Power Attack, Increased Spell Resistance 5x, Epic Manifesting, Epic Spellcraft Focus, Great Intelligence 3x
Challenge Rating 35-38
Treasure none
Alignment Lawful Evil
Advancement none

Special Attacks: Cthulhu has a wide array of special attacks that, coupled with his great intelligence, make him an extremely dangerous combatant.

Black Tentacles: Each one of Cthulhu's ten tentacles is not only a weapon against the body but a horror against the mind. Each touch deals 1d6 wisdom drain in addition to physical damage, degenerating the victim's mind until they descend into total insanity.
Spatial Distortion: In the presence of an Elder Evil, time and space warp to its advantage and its enemies' horror. Cthulhu emanates a spatial distortion up to a range of 1 mile. Within this area, space and reality are unstable. For every 5 feet a creature or unattended object would move within this area, it must make a DC 49 will save or move in an other adjacent space of Cthulhu's choice instead of the space it would normally move. Cthulhu himself can use this spatial distortion to move up to 1 mile as a 5-ft step.
Form of Madness: All Elder Evils cause madness on sight to mortal creatures. All non aberration, non outsiders of any HD as well as aberrations and outsiders of less than 21 HD must make a DC 49 will save upon seeing Cthulhu or go permanently insane. The save must be repeated every round. The insanity can only be removed by miracle, reality revision or wish that succeeds in a DC 46 CL check or a deity's ability to Alter Reality that succeeds in a DC 20 rank check. In addition, all mortal creatures seeing Cthulhu take 1d6 wisdom drain every round, no save.
Spellcasting: Cthulhu casts as a 35th level psion. He has 673 power points. He can cast up to 3 Epic Psionic powers with a DC of 80.
SLAs: Cthulhu has the following SLAs:
At will - Persistent Reality Maelstrom* (Far Realm only), Quickened Twinned Timestop, Intensified Disintegrate*, Greater Teleport, Chained Dominate Monster*, Metafaculty, Reach Temporal Stasis, Twin True Dispel
1/minute - Gate (70 HD of Shoggoths only), Twinned Extended Time Regression.
caster level 35, DC 32+spell level. *ability is supernatural, DC is 49

Special Qualities: In addition to his many powerful attacks, Cthulhu has a physical and mental might far beyond that of mortals.
Aberration Traits: Cthulhu is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, disease and cold damage. He is not subject to critical hits, sneak attacks and death from massive damage. He does not need to sleep or breathe, he is never fatigued and does not naturally age.
Elder Evil: All Elder Evils are immune to form-altering attacks and the effects of vacuum. They are not subject to destruction effects (such as a sphere of annihilation or a disintegrate spell) or alignment-based attacks. They don't automatically fail on a natural 1. They have DvR 0 and are thus not subject to antimagic or dispelling. They are succeptible to banishment, taking a -7 penalty to their saving throws against it.
Regeneration: Cthulhu takes normal damage from epic deep crystal weapons.
Immunities: Cthulhu has additional immunities to Sonic/Acid/Lightning damage, death and energy drain, ability damage and drain.
Incomprehensible: Elder Evils exist in more dimensions than our own, living partially beyond time and space and mortal minds cannot fully grasp their form. Attacks against them have a miss chance as if due to a Greater Blink spell and because mortal minds cannot grasp their form fully, mortals have a 50% miss chance against them as if by total concealment. True Seeing does not overcome this concealment and mortals that attempt it take 2d6 wisdom damage. In addition, mortal beings do not benefit from insight bonuses against them.
Elude Touch: Cthulhu adds his intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to his AC and again his intelligence modifier as a bonus to AC vs touch attacks.
Reality Screams: Reality Screams in the presence of an Elder Evil. Within a radius of 1 mile all objects and creatures take 1d6 damage per round that overcomes hardness slowly melting away, and all creatures take 1 wisdom drain per round. Damage taken by this alteration in reality cannot be magically healed-it only heals naturally. In addition, effects that alter reality fail if cast within (or cease functioning if already active) unless the caster does a DC 46 CL check and succeeds in a DC 49 will save.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-10, 09:55 AM
I'd suggest making his tentacles deal a permanent Insanity effect with no save.

And I like it. A lot.

EDIT: It just seemsd a bit odd that a creature that powerful would only deal 1d6 Wisdom damage on an attack. And an insanity effect would probably be better represented by the spell.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-10, 10:38 AM
It deals only 1d6 wisdom drain-per attack. Add up 12 attacks plus his form of madness and Incomprehensible (if a wizard is foolish enough to use True Seeing) and you end up with an average of 52 points of wisdom drain per round-no save, no SR. That means that at least 1 character per round is going to go permanently insane with no save, no SR.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-10, 10:39 AM
Eh.

Good point.

puppyavenger
2007-11-10, 11:19 AM
Wait ELder Evils is out!?!?!?!

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-10, 12:42 PM
I think Elder Evils is the term used for the god like lovecraftian horrors in D&D. A Cthulhu adaptation would likely qualify as one.

Jaerc
2007-11-10, 01:13 PM
Looks good. I personally view Cthulu as a colossal.

Overall my critique is going to say that he is somewhat over CR'd. Oh and it's going to be harsh. No offense intended.

His speed, even with Spatial Distortion is plain pathetic.

His AC is slightly low for the CR you suggest.
His slams are 10-15 points too low.

Always make DR, Regen, and Fast Healing multiples of 5 for ease of game play.

Give him a Extraordinary ability (maybe granted by the Elder Evil subtype) that grants the "Immunities" you gave him. It's more elegant and technically consistent.

His saves are marginally too low.
I see nothing to suggest in the Mythos that his Int should be so high, and he doesn't "need" it for mechanical reasons (ie there are alternate ways to justify AC bonuses). Nor does his Dex need to be so high.

Since you can simply grant a monster SR appropriate to it I would reduce by 4 the number of times you have taken ISR, leaving you that many Epic feat slots.

Why have Elder Evil's trod on the toes of WotC's obriyth's mechanically? Give them something new and more exciting than Form of Madness.

Have you given thought to what Epic powers he knows?

The SLA's look okay, if for the most part sparse/unthematic.

Anything I didn't metnion is groovy. :smallcool:

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-10, 05:25 PM
Looks good. I personally view Cthulu as a colossal.
He was going to use Alter Size to be able to get to larger sizes but I ran out of abilities. Maybe I should reconsider my decision to follow the template exactly but until then I won't give him more abilities.


Overall my critique is going to say that he is somewhat over CR'd.
Not really. Almost all his abilities can combine to mess around with time and space-he becomes really, really dangerous if he's played smart. Besides, according to WotC a level 35 human psion is CR 35 too...


His speed, even with Spatial Distortion is plain pathetic.
Actually, his speed is effectively unlimited. He gets an average of 14 timestop rounds per round of battle and has Greater Teleport at will. He can get anywhere in the same plane of existence as a swift action and still full attack.


His AC is slightly low for the CR you suggest.
A 35th lvl fighter has +20 BAB, +7 epic, +10 weapon, +15 strength, +10 buffs/feats for a total of +62. Against his normal AC, he only hits on a 20. Against his touch AC he misses 20% at the first attack, 45% at the second, 70% at the third and only hits on a 20 on the fourth. Unfortunately for our fighter, Cthulhu does not exist fully in an eucledian universe. He gets 50% miss chance as if he were under greater blink and another 50% miss chance as if from total concealment due to Incomprehensible. So, it doesn't really matter what the attacker's BAB is-before any attack rolls are made, 3 out of 4 attacks fail. And wait, it gets better. In order to get close to hit Cthulhu in melee, a fighter would have to make a DC 49 will save for every 5 ft he moves. Assuming a charge of 60 ft, that's 12 will saves-he gets turned around due to Spatial Distortion. In addition, Cthulhu is utterly immune to any projectiles from crossbow bolts to thrown boulders and from bullets to nuclear missiles-they're unattended after being thrown so he can automatically turn them around to hit the attackers with Spatial Distortion. Still think his AC is too low?


His slams are 10-15 points too low.
That is because he is not a meele monster. He doesn't have to have a high BAB when offencive precognition and other buffs can give him a 10-15 bonus-and he will more often use his tentacles for touch attacks to benefit from his ability drain (remember that for every point drained, he heals 5 HP)


Always make DR, Regen, and Fast Healing multiples of 5 for ease of game play.
DR was initially 25. Having Thick Skinned 3x gives him +6 DR hence the 31. Regeneration equals his constitution modifier and fast healing equals twice that much hence the uneven numbers. And it is not as if damage amounts from attacks are even anyway.


Give him a Extraordinary ability (maybe granted by the Elder Evil subtype) that grants the "Immunities" you gave him. It's more elegant and technically consistent.
The immunities are taken as abilities in the original template (not visible here) and they are technically consistent. I am simply separating them to indicate which immunities come from where (aberration type, Elder Evil or his advancement template)


His saves are marginally too low.
In this you're correct-but he's unbuffed. Defencive Precognition could give a +10 if needed.


I see nothing to suggest in the Mythos that his Int should be so high, and he doesn't "need" it for mechanical reasons (ie there are alternate ways to justify AC bonuses). Nor does his Dex need to be so high.
He does need it for mechanical reasons-most his DCs are based on intelligence and he's a Psion. Besides, he's an immortal that has existed for millions of years. A great wurm gold dragon that rolls PC stats and gets +5 inherent bonus can have an intelligence of 46 without buffs. I wanted him smarter than the dragon on the grounds that not only he is a unique creature (so higher stats) but also significantly older and, as a deity, has a vastly superior mind to that of mortals. For the dexterity thingy, a Pit Fiend with a +5 inherent bonus and the common array (10 or 11 base stat) has a dexterity of 30. Chtulhu is a more powerful base creature (more HD) and also unique thus goes for a better ability score array. Hence the higher score.


Since you can simply grant a monster SR appropriate to it...
SR is not assigned arbitrarily. Outsiders and other spirits almost always have SR between 10+CR and 20+CR with 13+CR being the most common. Cthulhu is a high tier so 20+CR therefore a base of 55, 65 with the feats. He doesn't need so high a SR (30 pts over his CR) but, truth be told, spellcasters need something to smack them at high levels so I am customarily giving most of my BBEGs all the SR they can get. Besides, psions don't really have good epic feats for them anyway.


Why have Elder Evil's trod on the toes of WotC's obriyth's mechanically? Give them something new and more exciting than Form of Madness.
That's because WotC created obyrinths to copy Lovecraftian horrors-not the other way around. Madness on sight was a Lovecraft theme long before it became an obyrinth theme.


Have you given thought to what Epic powers he knows?
Time Duplicate, a spell to travel between the Far Realm and the Prime (Gate is insufficient for this), Origin of Speices: Shoggoth, some kind of combat buff preferably increasing intelligence and strength that lasts for a few days, a permanent Ward vs Disjunction and a contingent True Ressurection.


The SLA's look okay, if for the most part sparse/unthematic.
Elder Evils are horrors from beyond Time and Space. Messing around with it-which all his SLAs except disintegrate and true dispel do-would fit IMHO.

SurlySeraph
2007-11-10, 07:28 PM
Though this sounds silly to say about Cthulu, he seems a bit too powerful. A DC 49 Will save against permanent insanity, plus 1d6+1 WIS drain every round? Remember that in "The Call of Cthulu", Johansen stays sane long enough to flee back to his ship, get into the water, and ram Cthulu's head. That has to take a few minutes. But even with 18 Wisdom, rolling all 20s on the Will saves, and Cthulu rolling all 1s, Johansen would have gone insane/comatose from the Wisdom drain after looking at Cthulu for 9 rounds (54 seconds). He would last longer if he didn't look at Cthulu, but he'd still last an absolute maximum of 18 rounds. Tone down the Wisdom drain to 1 or 1d3 per round looking at Cthulu, and leave the Wisdom drain from Reality Screams as it is. Also, you might want to reduce the DC of the Will save vs. insanity or make it a delayed effect.

The same applies to the Spatial Distortion ability. Granted, only 2 people managed to get off the island, but needing to make a DC 49 Will save every time they went 5 feet suggests more natural 20s than is plausible. Tone down the DC to around 20 or make it affect a limited number of targets.

His DR seems a bit high. A ship did ram right through his head, after all.

Finally, are you sure he should be Lawful Evil? It's debatable.

TheLogman
2007-11-10, 08:15 PM
I'd actually say he's definitely Chaotic Evil, ya know, considering the whole "insanity", "Madness", "Tentacles", and "OMGWTFBBQ" quality.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-10, 08:27 PM
You're both wrong. Cthulu is a force beyond human morals. He's true neutral in all respects to alignment. :smallbiggrin:

TheLogman
2007-11-10, 08:35 PM
But, if WE had to define it, WE would put him into OUR terms, in which case he would be Chaotic Evil, right? I dunno, something about perception and definition and stuff.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-10, 08:48 PM
But it's not us defining Cthulu. Alignment pertains to your actions, and thusly is an entirely individualistic entity. For example: How I see you is irrelevant to your alignment. Your alignment is based upon what you have done and is based entirely on outside forces(the DM). Because of that, you cannot quantify Cthulu in human terms because he is distinctly non-human.

The ultimate question: Is killing humans 'evil' according to Cthulu?

TheLogman
2007-11-10, 08:58 PM
But, by that same thread of reason, a character who ravages towns, rapes the ladies, kills the men, salts the land, enslaves the children, and then eats the entrails of the men would be True Neutral at worst, and Lawful Good at best, as long as he thinks that thats all okay.

Oh, and by simply giving him an alignment at all defining him in a sense, since we are placing him in our terms? Hp, Abilities, Powers, ect. Also, if we can't define him at all he would be Alignment: N/A wouldn't he? Since ya know, he cannot be definitively said as anything not even TN.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-10, 09:01 PM
C'thulhu is just misunderstood. Just imagine, you're in the middle of the longest nap of your life, when some crazy cultists wake you up. Then, you try to talk to people and make some new friends, but they all go insane and the sight of you. That's make anyone disgruntled.

Suzuro
2007-11-10, 09:17 PM
ZeroNumerous, as you said, Alignment isn't based on our perspectives of him, but neither is it based on his own perspectives. It is based on a higher power (Read 'The DM'). And this means that no matter what happens, it is up to the this higher power to determine whether his actions are lawful, evil or whatever.

-Suzuro

osyluth
2007-11-10, 09:54 PM
this is so great:smallbiggrin: , but dorsn't Cthulhu have wings?

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-11, 02:34 AM
All Elder Evils are immune to form-altering attacks and the effects of vacuum. They are not subject to destruction effects (such as a sphere of annihilation or a disintegrate spell) or alignment-based attacks
So, for DnD terms, alignment doesn't really matter.

Arakune
2007-11-11, 10:41 AM
Just CR 35~38 are enough? This guy looks like the DPPTDC of the epic scale.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-11, 12:18 PM
Cthulhu varies considerably depending on the story. This was intentional. So, that makes it a bit hard to say that anything is "wrong". This Cthulhu is extremely dangerous, and not for his combat ability. That seems right somehow.

On the alignment issue. Maybe Lovecraft didn't mean for him to be something "Evil", but in the D&D universe Good and Evil are fundemental building blocks of the Universe. On the same kind of scale as gravity. Cthulhu in D&D should almost certainly be Chaotic Evil. And remember that humanity is the center of the Universe in most standard settings. Weather or not the developers admit it, it's human ideas that define everything. Remember it's not how the creature defines itself that determines alignment, but some insane human person.


Also, Cthulhu was a fairly low level creature in the scale of the Mythos. Sure he was overwhelming to humanity, but pretty much everything was. So he doesn't need to be CR... 80 say and snack on gods for lunch.

There's some Wikipedia entries, that's where I got most of my information.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-11, 02:58 PM
Just CR 35~38 are enough? This guy looks like the DPPTDC of the epic scale.
Yes, he is CR 35-38. A correctly built but not overly min-maxed ECL 36 party could take him-provided they use divinations to get his strengths and weaknesses.


Cthulhu in D&D should almost certainly be Chaotic Evil.
Not true. Cthulhu and most of the Mythos are part of an organised sect of creatures. Just because humans don't know a creature's plans, it doesn't mean it doesn't have plans. For example, a mindflayer that moves around and eats people's brains would strike most humans as chaotic evil. However, said mindflayer is part of an alien civilisation and culture with a perfectly ordered society that has existed for countless millenia. It most definitely is Lawful Evil. Just because humans are not smart enough to see its plans and realise it is part of a society does not make it chaotic.


Sure he was overwhelming to humanity, but pretty much everything was.
Indeed. A level 10 ghost could easily slay everyone in modern earth and we couldn't do a thing to stop it. Same for many supernatural entities that require magic to fight. That doesn't make the lvl 10 ghost a deity of universe-shattering proportions.

puppyavenger
2007-11-11, 09:52 PM
Indeed. A level 10 ghost could easily slay everyone in modern earth and we couldn't do a thing to stop it. Same for many supernatural entities that require magic to fight. That doesn't make the lvl 10 ghost a deity of universe-shattering proportions.

Thanks for the idea for a D20 modern game.

Jaerc
2007-11-11, 10:06 PM
I'd still argue for an increase in size. :)

A 35th level psion is CR 27-28 if he has PC wealth. Without it's CR 24.

There is a fantastic difference between mobility and speed. He is very mobile. His speed is very low.

Yes. I still think his AC is too low. There is no need to take into account other protections when aiming for AC. I'm only seeing one application fo a 50% miss chance in the stat block. If there is supposed to be another can we assume that is is overcomeable by true seeing? If so we just negated it.
Once you realize you are fighting, unless you have a Will save good enough to make DC 49 consistently (oh wait, you do. To the point that you'll fail only on a 1-2), you aren't going to just charge. You are going to get close to him dimensionally.
All of that is irrelevant to what his AC should be though.

When I referenced slams, I took that to include tentacles. As it is, they will rarely-never hit.

I understand where the DR, regen and fast healing were derived. I still do not agree that they should be strange numbers. I don't even think this is an arguable point.

Hmmm. I can understand the division of what comes from where as appropriate in a master/notes copy. For a play-copy of stats I really would combine them but that's personal choice.

Okay, as long as it's easy for his to bring his saves up.

We disagree on the how and why of ability scores. That's okay, I hold a fairly nonstandard opinion. Which is that ability scores should not simply be as high as they can for a given creature, but rather than they should fit in with other creatures in Cosmos.
Why not make this unique creature even more unique and make his DC and psion-related numbers based on Wisdom (since that seems to be the 'madness measuring stat' in D&D). He doesn't need to be an imbecile certainly but neither does it need to be through the roof to explain his age and power.

Actually SR is assigned arbitrarily within limits. 13-18+CR is the most common indeed. 18 being reserved for creatures practically immune to magic. Again we disagree not on the mechanical result but the means. I think SR 50 (CR+15) would be sufficient. When assigning feats I find it helpful to think of a monster being designed as a creature rather than a class. Did you bind him to the psion Epic bonus feat list?

While what you say is mostly true (Mythos entities would generally not invoke pure madness but rather might unmake you without realizing it on sight) I still think that you are a good enough designer to find a better way to show the horror of Cthulu than obryrinth mechanics.

Regarding Epic Powers, this seems like a solid start. So mostly ultility over thematics? As for the contingent True Resurrection, why not give him something similar to deities in that he reforms in short order (lets say 35 weeks/months/years) unless slain and made to stay dead in the Far Realm?

I'll make up a list of SLAs to demonstrate what I meant later.

Truly, I must say good job and good start.
---

SurlySeraph. A Cthulu designed for our world would indeed be different from a Cthulu designed for D&D. In short to bring him inline with the stories a advanced kraken-like creature with DvR - and nothing else would be plenty sufficient. For D&D he needs to be far more similar to what Belial did.

In terms of Alignment I feel that most Far Realms entities should lack it in it's entirety, instead emulating certain alignments based on how Great Wheel inhabitants view them. Alignment is a construction of Reality that ceases to be meaningful to certain beings such as Far Realm entities, higher tier overgods/entities, and perhaps The Faerie.
In this case Cthulu would be CN. Maybe CE since he shows immense destructive tenancies. As it is, this is rendered moot by the Elder Evil template in this rendition of Cthulu.

osyluth
2007-11-11, 11:37 PM
Once you realize you are fighting, unless you have a Will save good enough to make DC 49 consistently (oh wait, you do. To the point that you'll fail only on a 1-2), you aren't going to just charge.

To do that, you would need +47 Will. A level 35 fighter will not have anything near that.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-12, 03:01 AM
Yes. I still think his AC is too low. There is no need to take into account other protections when aiming for AC. I'm only seeing one application fo a 50% miss chance in the stat block. If there is supposed to be another can we assume that is is overcomeable by true seeing? If so we just negated it.
Once you realize you are fighting, unless you have a Will save good enough to make DC 49 consistently (oh wait, you do. To the point that you'll fail only on a 1-2), you aren't going to just charge. You are going to get close to him dimensionally.
All of that is irrelevant to what his AC should be though.

Attacks against them have a miss chance as if due to a Greater Blink spell and because mortal minds cannot grasp their form fully, mortals have a 50% miss chance against them as if by total concealment. True Seeing does not overcome this concealment and mortals that attempt it take 2d6 wisdom damage. In addition, mortal beings do not benefit from insight bonuses against them.
So, both a 50% miss chance as if from greater blink-this is due to his existing beyond normal space-and 50% miss chance as if from total concealment-this is due to his being beyond mortal minds to comprehend, neither of which is overcomable by True Seeing. And, as with the saves, this is his unbuffed AC-a defencive precognition could increase that by 10+ points or more, not to mention spells like Epic Mage Armor. Ofcourse, if he's too bored to use buffs, he simply whips up the psionic version of antimagic field. Being a deity, he's immune-but most PCs will not be.


When I referenced slams, I took that to include tentacles. As it is, they will rarely-never hit.
That's strange. Barring very serious buffing (which he can dispel), I can't see how a level 35 PC could have a touch AC higher than 68 with him hitting 50% of the time even then-unless the PC is specifically build to be an AC monster in which case he will lack offencive capabilities.



We disagree on the how and why of ability scores. That's okay, I hold a fairly nonstandard opinion. Which is that ability scores should not simply be as high as they can for a given creature, but rather than they should fit in with other creatures in Cosmos.
Why not make this unique creature even more unique and make his DC and psion-related numbers based on Wisdom (since that seems to be the 'madness measuring stat' in D&D). He doesn't need to be an imbecile certainly but neither does it need to be through the roof to explain his age and power.
That's not a problem-I simply thought intelligence rather than wisdom was more appropriate for Cthulhu. The two ability scores could be changed around. As for being as high as they can be, they aren't. I used base rolls of 14/14/14/14/14/10 before applying all the bonuses. And the advancement in ability scores provided by the template I used matches the scores of a similar CR dragon that I use as a reference for assigning abilities to deities, given that dragons are the mortal creatures with the highest stats. A CR 35 force dragon for example has stats of 60/15/46/47/48/47 if you give it inherent bonuses and 64/19/50/51/52/47 if you use the PC stat array as for Chtulhu. So, the dragon can have higher ability scores than Cthulhu and other creatures in the cosmos that are CR 35 but are of even higher caliber (such as a deity) could have even higher ability scores than that.


When assigning feats I find it helpful to think of a monster being designed as a creature rather than a class. Did you bind him to the psion Epic bonus feat list?
Not really. But I can't think of any better feats to give him except, maybe, for Timestop Stowaway. The melee feats don't really fit and there aren't many epic feats that are good.



As for the contingent True Resurrection, why not give him something similar to deities in that he reforms in short order (lets say 35 weeks/months/years) unless slain and made to stay dead in the Far Realm?
Actually, all immortals-even the lowly imp-are assumed to simply disperse back to their place of origin if slain anywhere but inside their home plane. Deity-level immortals are assumed to disperse if slain anywhere but on their plane of origin and within their own domain by a power of equal or greater status. So, he already has this ability. The most mortals can accomplish by slaying him is getting him banished from that specific world for a century.


A Cthulu designed for our world would indeed be different from a Cthulu designed for D&D. In short to bring him inline with the stories a advanced kraken-like creature with DvR - and nothing else would be plenty sufficient. For D&D he needs to be far more similar to what Belial did.
The Cthulhu in those stories could have been an aspect of the true being residing in the far reaches of space and time or he could have been severely weakened by his ages-long slumber. The stats above reflect what IMHO he could do in his most powerful representation.

Arakune
2007-11-12, 11:02 AM
Can anyone enlighten me of how a 35 lvl party can defeat this monster (ignoring poorly worded cheese)?

I don't have too much experience in epic D&D.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-12, 11:34 AM
The same way they can defeat a Mature Adult force dragon or an advanced Elder Titan with good feat choices and treasure appropriate for them. Personally, I'd prefer to face Cthulhu as a player, despite his many supernatural powers-both the dragon and the titan would have better Epic Spells than Cthulhu due to their much higher HD (especially the titan) and they'd be insanely powerful melee combatants if they use wraithstrike and power attack. Imagine a creature that can attack at +80 or more and has 6 attacks turning its attacks to touch and power attacking. Or using an area Epic Dispel that wipes the party's buffs and items for 1d4 rounds then tears them apart.

Enlong
2007-11-12, 04:38 PM
I think perhaps he should also have the Pseudonatural template? 'cause pseudonatural creatures are in a word, C'thuloid, and this is C'thulu.

Maerok
2007-11-12, 04:49 PM
Pun-Pun wishes he could be Cthulhu.

http://wiki.rpg.net/images/3/38/MPost11325-motivator9023404.jpg

http://wiki.rpg.net/images/0/0a/MPost1-Cthulhu.jpg

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Category:Motivational_Posters:_Cthulhu

....
2007-11-12, 04:58 PM
Why do people act like Cthulhu is the end-all be-all badass of the Mythos?

Why dosn't someone stat out Yog-Sothoth, or Azathoth, or Nyarlathotep?

All three of those guys could pimp-slap Cthulhu across the multiverse.

Jaerc
2007-11-12, 05:38 PM
Overall I think we're pretty much in agreement at this point.

Well provided he buffs appropriately, his AC can now be competitive. Groovy.

As for PCs in that department.


Target AC: 85
AC Split: 10 (base), +15 armor (+9 mithral full plate), +7 shield (+7 heavy mithral shield), +1 Dex (may be higher, but even mithral limits how much Dex bonus full plate allows - assume Gloves of Dex +2 at minimum), +52 ring of [various bonuses] (+5 circumstance, +5 competence, +6 deflection, +5 insight, +5 luck, +5 morale, +6 natural armor, +5 sacred).
Total as percentage of wealth: 24%

This is resultant in a 47 touch AC pre-buffs, so you end up being correct in the strictest sense. If Cthuhlu is getting to buff himself for this encounter though, I feel the PCs should as well. Note that some of the bonuses above depend on armour and shield which a few classes won't be able to use effectively at this level. For them assume that an Epic spell has been created to supplement. This costs an additional 8% of wealth and switches the bonuses around.

Now the "i dispel magic" card isn't that much of a threat (though it's still a viable tactic certainly). PCs have been dealing with it for 15-20 levels at this point and should have some built in defenses otherwise they would have died long ago.

I was in fact going to suggest a few Stowaway feats. I'll agree that Epic feats are seriously lacking.

I won't address the next issue since that is cosmology dependent and changes in WotC's own books often enough.

On a complete side note the higher age categories of force dragons are utterly under CR'd (even for their creature type) and while not undefeatable are vastly superior to everything else withing their league. To continue this distraction I rule wraithstrike as a +7 epic weapon enhancement, does this seem appropriate?

As for other Mythos guy's, Cthulhu has a better agent and this is why he is better known. I (hope I still) have a few notes floating around for stats on Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath, Nyarlathotep and Dagon (not to be confused with demon prince), Baoht Z'uqqa-Mogg, Eihort, Hastur, and Yibb-Tstll around here somewhere. I'll see if I can dig them up.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-12, 05:59 PM
Why dosn't someone stat out Yog-Sothoth, or Azathoth, or Nyarlathotep?
Yog-Sothoth is a greater power of Time and Space. Say, the PCs attack him and they're mortals. It doesn't matter what level they are. Yog-Sothoth simply uses his Time Regression SLA to replay the round until the PCs all roll 1s against his Crushed by Eternity-the ability that ages you until you die of old age.

Azathoth is an overpower. He can dream up a few Elder Gods or other things to eat the PCs. Or eat the world along with the PCs. He's not unstattable-just so powerful that unless you're playing deities already, you got no chance to stop him.

osyluth
2007-11-18, 02:36 AM
true the elder evils would be invulnerable to mortals, but boy would it be awesome for the badasses of the Mythos' themselves to slug it out:smallbiggrin:

Cybren
2007-11-18, 02:39 AM
But it's not us defining Cthulu. Alignment pertains to your actions, and thusly is an entirely individualistic entity. For example: How I see you is irrelevant to your alignment. Your alignment is based upon what you have done and is based entirely on outside forces(the DM). Because of that, you cannot quantify Cthulu in human terms because he is distinctly non-human.

The ultimate question: Is killing humans 'evil' according to Cthulu?

Cthulu is to us as we are to ants.

Think about how many people Zeus kills (and does other things to...), and he consistently gets a good alignment in WotC write ups. Huhhh?

Mewtarthio
2007-11-18, 10:41 AM
Cthulu is to us as we are to ants.

Think about how many people Zeus kills (and does other things to...), and he consistently gets a good alignment in WotC write ups. Huhhh?

It's because of Disney's Hercules. Everybody now thinks Zeus was a really nice guy and Hades was pure evil.

osyluth
2007-11-19, 12:46 AM
Not to seem picky or anything :smalltongue: , but shouldn't he have a swim speed too? In Call of Cthulhu he can swim as fast as a good boat, so he needs a swim speed of a lot or ranks in swim.

Edit: don't feel bad about how picky I'm being; I think this is really cool and I am mostly posting all this so that this goes back to page one.:smallbiggrin:

littlechicory
2007-11-20, 03:22 PM
It's because of Disney's Hercules. Everybody now thinks Zeus was a really nice guy and Hades was pure evil.

YES. The Disney movie made me weep for the broken Greek mythology.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-20, 07:57 PM
Does any mythology ever not get broken?