Hobgoblin Mastermind seems fun

[Man_Over_Game]

For those not familiar, here's the feywild version of the Hobgoblin: https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_FeyFolk.pdf

My biggest complaint about the Mastermind Rogue was how boring it was. Each turn, give someone a boost to their attack roll, and that's your entire schtick.

But now, you can use it to heal, to debuff enemies, to reposition allies. Seems like a ton of fun and fits exactly what I think the Mastermind should be/been capable of.

My only complaint is that you basically have to give up the racial stat bonuses in order to be interesting, but you win some, you lose some.

[Lupine]

My biggest complaint about the Mastermind Rogue was how boring it was. Each turn, give someone a boost to their attack roll, and that's your entire schtick.

But now, you can use it to heal, to debuff enemies, to reposition allies. Seems like a ton of fun and fits exactly what I think the Mastermind should be/been capable of.

My only complaint is that you basically have to give up the racial stat bonuses in order to be interesting, but you win some, you lose some.

I presume you're talking about the feywild hobgoblin from the UA. What may be worth noticing is that at the top of the UA talking about the feywild races, they all got the +2 to one score, and +1 to another. In other words, you don't even lose the racial statboost.

Also, good to see you around, MOG. I've missed you.

[Man_Over_Game]

I presume you're talking about the feywild hobgoblin from the UA. What may be worth noticing is that at the top of the UA talking about the feywild races, they all got the +2 to one score, and +1 to another. In other words, you don't even lose the racial statboost.


What? How did I miss that? They seemed balanced before, now it's just stupid. Which means that these definitely won't see print, unfortunately.


Also, good to see you around, MOG. I've missed you.
A poor choice of judgement, but I missed you too, buddy! Was referring to your quote, but I can't help myself to a good double entendre!

[strangebloke]

Yeah the new hobgoblin mastermind is straight up overpowered. Between combats? Give THP to everyone! In combat? Free damage!

Absolutely absurdly strong by default. Plays well with Mastermind but that's not the most broken thing you can do.

[Lupine]

What? How did I miss that? They seemed balanced before, now it's just stupid. Which means that these definitely won't see print, unfortunately.

They might, actually. They're strong, sure, but they're strong only in how they draw support from and give support to their allies. They might not be balaneced exactly, but I think they're probably gonna see print, because of their power comes around by making other players stronger. Notice the two strongest support class abilities -- bard's inspiration, and paladin's auras -- are both kinda overpowered, but they saw print, because they make the other players feel like badasses.

UA hobgoblin, literally cannot be a loner character and still use racial ablities (Though, come to think about it, they could be a pretty powerful as a summoner.) I think it's likely that they could see print, simply because they're so built towards making the party better.

[da newt]

If you really want to double down on this idea would a Wolf Totem Barbarian MC make it even better?

Or is a Peace Cleric Mastermind Feywild Hobgoblin the pinnacle of extra sauce?

How about adding a bit of Bardic Inspiration on top?

[Man_Over_Game]

They might, actually. They're strong, sure, but they're strong only in how they draw support from and give support to their allies. They might not be balaneced exactly, but I think they're probably gonna see print, because of their power comes around by making other players stronger. Notice the two strongest support class abilities -- bard's inspiration, and paladin's auras -- are both kinda overpowered, but they saw print, because they make the other players feel like badasses.

UA hobgoblin, literally cannot be a loner character and still use racial ablities (Though, come to think about it, they could be a pretty powerful as a summoner.) I think it's likely that they could see print, simply because they're so built towards making the party better.

You make an excellent point. I had the same theory about the Cleric (Heavy Armor, 1d8 Hit Die, Full Casting, powerful class/subclass powers; would be OP on a Paladin or Wizard, only balanced because half of their kit is oriented towards party support), and something like the Fey Hobgob would follow a similar pattern.


If you really want to double down on this idea would a Wolf Totem Barbarian MC make it even better?

Or is a Peace Cleric Mastermind Feywild Hobgoblin the pinnacle of extra sauce?

How about adding a bit of Bardic Inspiration on top?

Yes to everything but Bardic Inspiration. It's not a terrible idea, but there's a problem with the fact that both rely on your BA, so you're not able to use both features to augment each other (where the same is not true of the Wolf Totem Barbarian). It's the difference between power creep (increasing the maximum limit of your character's possibilities, not applicable with Bardic Inspiration) and consistency/versatility (being relevant more often, which is equally applicable to all 3 examples). Otherwise, I agree that those would be awesome concepts.

[Lupine]

If you really want to double down on this idea would a Wolf Totem Barbarian MC make it even better?

The reason to go mastermind with it is that mastermind lets you use the help action from 30 feet away, Thus, the mastermind ability -- help at range-- and the feywild hobgoblin (I think they'll be renamed, at some point) ability -- various buffs and party aid with the help action -- synergizes really well, effectively allowing you to give allies Temp HP, or speed boosts, and disadvantaging enemies.

edit: ninja'd

[borg286]

The Spite ability seems to be less effective at higher levels, namely allies and monsters increase their DPR through more attacks. Aid and Spite only works with the first attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Spite ability seems to be less effective at higher levels, namely allies and monsters increase their DPR through more attacks. Aid and Spite only works with the first attack.

Same is true with a lot of racial powers. The Goliath's shield doesn't have great scaling, for instance.

The feature actually scales the same way attacks do, as quantity per level (which instead is based on proficiency than a class upgrade), and the Help action scales with level as-is (since bonuses to attack rolls scale at all levels), it just doesn't work as much for Masterminds since they can use the BA Help cost an infinite number of times.

Also, I forgot that Masterminds don't need to use their BA for a ranged Help action.


Christ, you could make a level 3 Mastermind, then go 17 Lore Bard, and now you're using 2 Super Help Actions each turn with 30 range and can use your Reaction for party support.

We did it, boys. We finally have a nonmagical support build (that, unfortunately, is still 85% caster, but at least you don't have to pick any support spells from the Bard spell list...).

[EDIT] I also realize that this is actually a very relevant pacifist, a problem we've had for a long time with anything "pacifist".

[Merudo]

The reason to go mastermind with it is that mastermind lets you use the help action from 30 feet away, Thus, the mastermind ability -- help at range-- and the feywild hobgoblin (I think they'll be renamed, at some point) ability -- various buffs and party aid with the help action -- synergizes really well, effectively allowing you to give allies Temp HP, or speed boosts, and disadvantaging enemies.

edit: ninja'd

The mastermind can already use Help as a bonus action, so there is actually a negative synergy here for the bonus action similar to the Goblin Rogue.

Sure, a few times a day the Mastermind gets to add a minor buff to their usual ranged bonus help action, but that's not very powerful in itself.

Honestly the Mastermind is rather underwhelming as it, and the Feywild Hobgoblin doesn't change this much.

[Man_Over_Game]

The mastermind can already use Help as a bonus action, so there is actually a negative synergy here for the bonus action similar to the Goblin Rogue.

Sure, a few times a day the Mastermind gets to add a minor buff to their usual ranged bonus help action, but that's not very powerful in itself.

Honestly the Mastermind is rather underwhelming as it, and the Feywild Hobgoblin doesn't change this much.

Hobgoblin can only use it with a BA once for each proficiency point you have. So until your proficiency is +3, you can only use it twice a day. Mastermind has no limit.

Another way you can think about it is that it's a perfect synergy after the first 2-3 turns of combat in that day.

[WaroftheCrans]

The mastermind can already use Help as a bonus action, so there is actually a negative synergy here for the bonus action similar to the Goblin Rogue.

Sure, a few times a day the Mastermind gets to add a minor buff to their usual ranged bonus help action, but that's not very powerful in itself.

Honestly the Mastermind is rather underwhelming as it, and the Feywild Hobgoblin doesn't change this much.

The buffed part of the help action for hobgoblin is infinite use. It also doesn't require you to use the help action as a bonus action.
As MOG stated, mastermind synergises by allowing infinite bonus action use, but more importantly it allows it to be at range and stacks with other class buffs.
I'll agree that mastermind is underwhelming, but hobgob certainly isn't.

[Merudo]

Hobgoblin can only use it with a BA once for each proficiency point you have. So until your proficiency is +3, you can only use it twice a day. Mastermind has no limit.

Oh I see, I had read that wrong. I thought the bonus only applied when spending a daily use on it.