Differentiating devils and demons

[Elves]

I find the Planescape alignment-based differentiation between devils and demons a little thin. There's also no visual difference between them: what makes these (www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG48.jpg) demons but these (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG51.jpg) devils?

Based on this idea (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627689-Different-idea-for-Blood-War-demon-and-devil-difference), I want to emphasize devils as fallen angels, vs. demons as native spawn of the lower planes. Devils then have a more humanoid appearance while demons are more freakish, bestial and amorphous.

1) How could the appearances of existing baatezu and tan'ari be changed to reflect this?

A particular problem is balors vs. pit fiends. They look the same. What's a cool new appearance for a balor that differentiates it?

It seems right for it to be larger than the pit fiend, because its job is to punish and terrorize it, and because it's more of a "force of nature". Maybe if a pit fiend and a balor met, it would be the tiny figure of a bat-winged warrior in black armor, corrupted but retaining its dignity and pride, against a huge, molting specter of shadow and fire that curls and towers above it like a cloud of smoke. The devil stings its foe with a flaming spear, and the wounded balor resolves into a chimeric, many-horned monstrosity whose open mouth glows molten. If the devils are infernal "Mankind" and the demons are infernal "Nature", the devil is a corrupted version of an ancient Greek hero (with the fatal flaw to match -- the vice that made it fall) and the demon is the hydra or chimera, but even more horrible. So maybe you put the balor on all fours.

Or scrap the balor, what's a better concept for a CR 20 top dog demon? Tolkien's balrog fits more in the "devil/fallen angel" category anyway.

The ice devil and bone devil also need appearance reworks to fit the fallen angel idea. And almost all the demons are too human and not exotic enough.

2) What are some consistent visual traits that could unite each category?
One idea is that devils wear arms and armor, oftentimes the desecrated versions of their old angelic armaments, while demons rarely do. A devil army marches with breastplates and spears, while the demons are a slavering, naked, fanged mass.

Also, unlike the demons, they should have sophisticated war machines. Another Paradise Lost quote gives an idea for these:

Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way,
Turning our tortures into horrid arms
Against the torturer...

The devils have taken the hazards of the underworld as weapons for their own use. So their war machines should burn with and shoot hellfire and be powered by infernal combustion engines.

3) Mechanically, how could the creatures be modified to reflect these ideas?
For devils, obvious start is to give them angels' protective aura and tongues.
For demons, a start is to template them with stuff like multiheaded. Or instead of tan'ari, in many cases, just use fiendish and half-fiend monsters of other types.

I'm just spitballing and thinking out loud here, but any response is welcome.

[Crake]

Based on this idea (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627689-Different-idea-for-Blood-War-demon-and-devil-difference), I want to emphasize devils as fallen angels

Based on your wording, you seem to be implying that devils are fallen angels, which, by and large, is not true. Erinyes and asmodeus himself (though sometimes not, depending on which lore you're using) are the exceptions, because otherwise, devils are actually just LE souls damned to baator who were put through the infernal soul-churning machines and turned into lemures, who then eventually got promoted upward. In a sense, devils are just creations of the aforementioned fallen angels.

If you want to change the lore to fallen angels, then i guess the question becomes: How do they reproduce? Actual angels are created when good souls ascend, while demons are spawned from the abyss ad infinitum, how do devils reproduce if they're all just fallen angels? Cause more angels to fall? What happens to the LE souls of the damned? Are they just amassed and tortured? They can't ascend into fallen angels, because they have to have been angels in the first place to fall? I can dig the notion of an elite of fallen angels presiding over hell, but the devils themselves can't all be fallen angels, it's just not feasible, as each angel that dies wouldn't be replaced.

[Drelua]

I do like the idea of devils wearing armor, between that and actually fighting with tactics it's more believable that they can hold back the infinite hordes of demons. Well, that and infinite demons doesn't mean infinite battlefields, and demons sure aren't organized enough to keep track of where they need the troops. It could be that the oldest devils are fallen angels, and they shaped the devils they later made in their image. Plus I like the idea of demons that have survived a few fights with devils randomly strapping on bits of salvaged armor.

I disagree about the law/chaos distinction being thin though, to me devils aren't lawful in the same way that people can be, even Paladin's don't embody order to the same extent. A Paladin might choose mercy over the letter of the law, but a devil wouldn't even think of breaking a single rule, unless there's a rule saying they should ignore those rules, like local laws on the material plane. Even then, they'll look for loopholes to let them do things technically legally, because that's just how their brains work. Every single thing they do is determined by strict rules and hierarchy. Explaining to a devil that they could just not do what the rules say would be like someone explaining to you that you could just choose not to be subject to gravity.

I want to introduce an NPC in my setting that tricked a demon to give him immortality, on the condition that he would age on days when he did not work towards the completion of his quest. The demon assumed the quest was to slay the current big bad, but the real quest he was on, in his mind, was to see the whole world. Since that's impossible to complete, he's not going anywhere.

If anyone asks him if the stories are true, that he made a deal with the devil, he will tell them they're wrong on two counts. Not devil, demon. And not the, a. Don't make a deal with the big boss, make a deal with an ambitious new guy that's only been around a few centuries. And don't deal with devils, they have literal miles of contract law memorized, written in a language designed to be obtuse. Not to mention decades of training and certification, with advanced degrees in The Signing and Writing of Faustian Pacts. And about 8 different levels of inspection and approval necessary to sign a deal that varies in any way from one of several pre-written contracts.

Okay, most of this is my personal fluff, aka 'just some stuff I made up,' but the law/chaos thing can be written to be a major, clear difference. Want to tell a demon from a devil? Put up a 'Please Do Not Step on the Grass' sign. A devil will avoid the grass if it can. A demon will kick over the sign, tap dance on the grass if they don't have anything more fun to be doing, and set it on fire. I do definitely agree that they could really use a distinct design philosophy though, you could print a copy of the Monster Manual with the pictures switched and I would never notice.

[Elves]

Based on your wording, you seem to be implying that devils are fallen angels, which, by and large, is not true.
It was the case in 4e at least, but a fusion of the two makes sense. Evil angels and evil mortals would get damned to the same place.

Here's a fun idea: you can tell whether a devil's origin was celestial or mortal by whether it has wings or not. So all cornugons and pit fiends would be fallen angels, but all bearded devils would be mortal souls. I guess it's an extension of your devil form being a corrupted version of your prior one. But say that out of envy, the fallen angels rip off the wings of any mortal who had wings in life.


If you want to change the lore to fallen angels, then i guess the question becomes: How do they reproduce? ... Cause more angels to fall?
And yeah, in addition, I assume celestials can still go evil, though it's rare.



I disagree about the law/chaos distinction being thin though, to me devils aren't lawful in the same way that people can be, even Paladin's don't embody order to the same extent.
It's fine as an ingredient, but if you take two visually indistinguishable groups of fiends and say the only difference is that one acts chaotic and the other acts lawful, that's not compelling. There needs to be a category difference between them.


A Paladin might choose mercy over the letter of the law, but a devil wouldn't even think of breaking a single rule, unless there's a rule saying they should ignore those rules, like local laws on the material plane. Even then, they'll look for loopholes to let them do things technically legally, because that's just how their brains work.
Is that really the story you want to tell though? Even if you're going for the moral/philosophical angle, that turns a story about devils from a story about vice and evil into a story about OCD. But it's...evil OCD! Doesn't hit at a gut level IMO, and too shallow to hit at a philosophical one.

Again, it's fine for that to be a contrasting element of their behavior but doesn't work as a justification for them being different to begin with.

[Crake]

It was the case in 4e at least, but a fusion of the two makes sense. Evil angels and evil mortals would get damned to the same place.

Hmm, I'm not particularly familiar with 4e lore, so I can't really comment there.


Here's a fun idea: you can tell whether a devil's origin was celestial or mortal by whether it has wings or not. So all cornugons and pit fiends would be fallen angels, but all bearded devils would be mortal souls. I guess it's an extension of your devil form being a corrupted version of your prior one. But say that out of envy, the fallen angels rip off the wings of any mortal who had wings in life.

If you do it that way, you need to rethink the entire infernal ranking system, because ALL of those devils began as lemures at some point, and were promoted to more powerful forms. Not being facetious at all, but are you aware that devils quite literally become different devils as they are promoted? They undergo a physical metamorphosis in the process and literally change into a different form, and even a different psychological state. It's even mentioned that Ice Devils are something of a dead end promotion, because their mindset is rather brutish, and isn't really conducive to tempting mortals and bringing in more souls, which is where the majority of credit toward promotion comes from, and that some devils will opt to stay as imps, just so they can get more contracts done.

I think a better solution would be, instead of changing the existing infernal structure, to add more fallen angel type devils like the erinyes (who, also, are the only devils able to be promoted into pleasure devils, exclusive to erinyes). Or hell (no pun intended), even just take existing celestials, invert their alignment based abilities and subtypes, and populate the nine hells with them. Remove them from the infernal chain of promotion, just like the erinyes are excluded from it (though they can choose to opt in if they want to take on a more powerful, but more horrific form), and maybe give them their own promotion system, where, perhaps, if an otherwise good soul is damned to the nine hells, they can be forcefully ascended into a celestial, and then corrupted into a fallen angel? That way, damning souls to hell, while the soul still remains pure, either through some form of soul trapping, sacrificial ritual, or a no-win/self-sacrifice infernal bargain, suddenly has a very specific and required use for baator.

[Elves]

I think a better solution would be, instead of changing the existing infernal structure, to add more fallen angel type devils
Importing alignment swapped angels is a good idea, but angel or mortal, I still want a devil to be instantly recognizable as a devil rather than a demon and vice versa. The appearance question remains.

As for the devil promotion process, I feel like the existing devil types aren't organized enough for that to make a lot of sense. Turning from a jelly to a little red imp to an ice insect to a green barbed devil is already a bit of a stretch, and there's no metaphysical attribute to each devil that makes it a logical progression. So to make that work to my satisfaction would also require rehauling the extant devils, even moreso. Visual homogenization to provide a clearer path from imp to pit fiend, with the visually different types as "specialized" promotion tracks that don't ultimately lead to the top. Really making that all work and then giving it a framework based on the seven sins or whatever is a bigger task than I'm looking for. So I'm content to dish the promotion process from Planescape and focus on the questions in OP.

[Crake]

Importing alignment swapped angels is a good idea, but angel or mortal, I still want a devil to be instantly recognizable as a devil rather than a demon and vice versa. The appearance question remains.

As for the devil promotion process, I feel like the existing devil types aren't organized enough for that to make a lot of sense. Turning from a jelly to a little red imp to an ice insect to a green barbed devil is already a bit of a stretch, and there's no metaphysical attribute to each devil that makes it a logical progression. So to make that work to my satisfaction would also require rehauling the extant devils, even moreso. Visual homogenization to provide a clearer path from imp to pit fiend, with the visually different types as "specialized" promotion tracks that don't ultimately lead to the top. Really making that all work and then giving it a framework based on the seven sins or whatever is a bigger task than I'm looking for.

I mean, at that point, you're basically just looking at an entire re-work of the baator heirarchy, which, while a commendable initiative for a homebrew campaign setting, IS a lot of work, and probably one you're gonna have to mostly do yourself, as writing out your expectations for other people to work off of is in itself going to be quite a task in and of itself, which you could just spend on doing it yourself, and it doesn't really do anything for anyone else unless they like the idea and would want to use it for their own setting, which, most people seem rather content with the standard setting.

Nevertheless, I'll keep an eye on this topic, as it seems rather interesting, and I don't mind bouncing ideas for a theoretical alternate baator.

[ShurikVch]

In mechanical sense - it's all in the subtypes: switch "Lawful" to "Chaotic" - and presto: it's a Demon! (Also, Baatezu and Tanar’ri/Obyrith/Loumara subtypes)

But visually - it's all in the minor details which WotC left unsaid
Mechanically, it represented by Knowledge checks: character with little knowledge wouldn't distinguish Yugoloth from Demodand; character with vast knowledge - may be able to say that particular Pit Fiend is from Nessus...

[Drelua]

It's fine as an ingredient, but if you take two visually indistinguishable groups of fiends and say the only difference is that one acts chaotic and the other acts lawful, that's not compelling. There needs to be a category difference between them.

Is that really the story you want to tell though? Even if you're going for the moral/philosophical angle, that turns a story about devils from a story about vice and evil into a story about OCD. But it's...evil OCD! Doesn't hit at a gut level IMO, and too shallow to hit at a philosophical one.

Again, it's fine for that to be a contrasting element of their behavior but doesn't work as a justification for them being different to begin with.

To be clear, I said it wasn't thin, but I also agreed that it isn't enough. That's not really what OCD is, it resembles one of the common symptoms ("Needing things orderly and symmetrical," per the mayo clinic) and none of the others. And symmetry isn't really a factor, so that's a stretch. That's just what it means to be lawful to a ridiculous extent, without a trace of compassion to temper it. It's not like OCD because that's a human thing, and their way of thinking is decidedly inhuman. It's a huge ideological difference, but it would be great if there was more than that.

I like the armor idea, but the idea that they're all fallen angels seems weird to me. How many devils are there? Probably hundreds of thousands at least, likely millions. Millions of angels have fallen? At that point, I wouldn't trust angels, with how likely they are to just turn evil one day. I wouldn't even do all winged devils, that's still a lot and if they were making devils in their image they could easily add wings. Lots of things have wings. I'd just say most of the Lords of Hell are fallen angels, plus erinyes, and leave it at that.

If you want a quick and easy answer, you could just reskin them and say demons look like animals, devils look like insects, or demons have fur devils have scales, but that's maybe too simple. Anything where you're rewriting stats, even just to add armor, would be a lot of work. You'd have to rebalance their AC, since just adding armor could make them more powerful, and the armor would have to vary from one devil to the next. Most devils, at least in core, have at least +5 Dex, only 4 have less and they're some of the weakest with a CR no greater than 6. You'd have to watch the max dex, some devils would hardly benefit from a regular suit of full plate at all.

[Elves]

Millions of angels have fallen? At that point, I wouldn't trust angels, with how likely they are to just turn evil one day.
In the traditional literature like Dante, 1/3 of the angels fell. And with the Outer Planes we're talking about cosmic scale, not human scale. For infinite planes that embody the fundamental precepts of the cosmos, I assume trillions of angels is lowballing it.

[Silly Name]

In the traditional literature like Dante, 1/3 of the angels fell. And with the Outer Planes we're talking about cosmic scale, not human scale. For infinite planes that embody the fundamental precepts of the cosmos, I assume trillions of angels is lowballing it.

Sure, but at the same time Dante didn't need to explain where new devils come from, because those devils weren't locked in eternal battle with an infinite force of chaos. D&D devils, if they all were fallen angels, would need a constant, abundant stream of falling angels to maintain their forces. All he "needed" was a singular, incredible heavenly civil war to explain where the devils came from. Even with a practically infinite reserve of angels, the devils would need to constantly throw the Upper Planes in disarray and civil war to ensure they get enough "fresh blood" to replace the forces lost every day in the Blood War.


Now, onto the question, here's some ideas:

The most important thing about demons is that they're obscene and offensive. Their forms are repulsive, exaggerated, grotesque; they stink, drip drool and slime and stuff, their blood is pus, and so on. Some demons like to hide this, because they get off of the idea of tricking mortals, but in the Abyss their true forms are always on display. Some demons experiment with their forms, grafting pieces of other creatures, altering their limbs with magic and alchemy, that sort of stuff. Succubi may look beautiful and enchanting, but their true form is more like an hag.

Devils are different. While they can still bean horrific sight, it's because they are towering monsters, but nowhere as grotesque as demons. They maintain a strange elegance even when they're ripping something to shreds with their claws; no matter what, their limbs are always proportionate to their bodies. Being in the presence of a demon is a sensory cacophony, but being in front of a devil is even worse: it feels like the air stills, colours wash out, and even your emotions dull. The perfect world for a devil is a prison - grey, uniform, strict and running like a clock - and they project this "dream" on nearby creatures.

This is why lemures are the lowest of the low: not only are they weak, newborn devil, they are lacking in the clarity of mind and vision necessary to have a proper and prim appearance (by devilish standards). They're still too tied up with the mortal world, its passions, its disgusting lack of uniformity. Meanwhile, erinyes are hailed as perfect beings, showing only the minimal taint of Baator, just like Asmodeus. Not only are their leaders of the infernal armies, they rank higher than any other devil that's not a Duke or has some special dispensation by Asmodeus: they can order around even pit fiends, because even the mightiest and oldest pit fiend is a creature of the Nine Hells, shaped by Asmodeus and borne by him, but is still not a direct creation of the highest principles of Order and Law like the erinyes and Asmodeus are.

Mechanically, this would mean all demons have an aura of stench, its strength commensurate to the demon's, while devils have an aura of despair, again as powerful (and wide?) as befits the devil's rank. Succubi have the option to suppress this aura, as may do some unique, powerful demons, while erinyes have the option to turn their aura of despair into something resembling the dryad's blinding beauty.

The advantage of this idea is that you only need minimal tweaks to how you describe them. You only have to put emphasis on how the devils' movements are harmonious and calculated, while demons are always contorting themselves in unnatural positions, their limbs twisting as if they had no bones but still making the horrible sounds of breaking and settling, and then add the above sensory inputs.

BONUS: Animal associations

Devils are associated with snakes and big cats - deadly and dangerous and heartless, but still strangely fascinating and elegant. They have a fondness for dogs and hounds, due to their tendency for everlasting loyalty and obedience.

Demons like pests, especially those that swarm. Flies, mosquitoes, roaches and rats: able to reproduce at an alarming rate and turn into veritable tides of disease and destruction.

[Remuko]

Idk I like it. Mortals shouldnt be able to instantly be able to tell the difference looking at their physical appearance.

[Drelua]

In the traditional literature like Dante, 1/3 of the angels fell. And with the Outer Planes we're talking about cosmic scale, not human scale. For infinite planes that embody the fundamental precepts of the cosmos, I assume trillions of angels is lowballing it.

I feel like however large the scale, Hell has to be Hell for as many Planes as Heaven has to serve as Heaven. So saying it's a vast, cosmic scale doesn't doesn't really help when it's just a question of proportion. If a third of angels fell, and they've been largely occupied by the blood war, then a lot of them must have died, which would mean their numbers have been dropping for however long it's been since they all fell. To maintain their numbers, angels would have to be falling as fast as the infinite hordes of the abyss can kill devils. I guess you could say that fallen angels become part of their new home plane and when they die they eventually reform and start at the bottom of the ladder. I kinda like the idea of devils constantly getting demoted to lemure and working their way back up.

I really like the idea of demons just being nasty, though. You'd wouldn't really have to rewrite any rules, you can just say demons are gross and crude devils are clean and poised. You could give Succubi a hypnotic aura, make a will save or you don't notice how gross they are. Higher level demons might have similar ways to disguise themselves, maybe they can fit themselves into a person suit like PF's Ecorche (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ecorche/#Wear_Skin_Su). Then they get mad and burst out, releasing all their trapped stink.

[Elves]

If a third of angels fell, and they've been largely occupied by the blood war, then a lot of them must have died, which would mean their numbers have been dropping for however long it's been since they all fell. To maintain their numbers, angels would have to be falling as fast as the infinite hordes of the abyss can kill devils.
There's a reason the fallen angels would rather send out fallen mortal souls as infantry troops than risk themselves.

OTOH, outsiders only die for real on their own plane IIRC, so it's possible that the fallen angel types are not truly native to hell and are instead reborn there upon death so that they have no way to escape their eternal torment.


That's not really what OCD is...
My point is when people want to tell a story about devils they're usually thinking of falls from grace, evil, vice and pride and not compulsive rule-following. And it seems like that part was only inserted into the D&D mythos to separate them from demons, not because it was itself especially compelling.

[Crake]

Well, one thing to consider, if you're changing things around this much, and the blood war is a source of issue for the new order of things.... can we just ditch the blood war? Make it a war between heaven and hell instead perhaps, with the devils/fallen angels acting as generals and troop leaders, and the demons of the abyss as canon fodder? That way you could feasibly have all devils be fallen angels without having to worry about where they get a constant stream of new blood to keep up with the blood war.

[Elves]

I think the Blood War is core to this, since the idea is that the demons are the "natural denizens" of the lower planes and the devils merely fallen into it, imprisoned in a way equivalent to an evil soul being damned there, except that since outsiders are all soul, they were simply sent there "physically" rather than having to die first.

Since Celestia is parallel to Baator (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/speex-realms/images/7/75/Great_Wheel_Cosmology.png/revision/latest?cb=20181114221853), they may have literally fallen straight from the Mount to where Baator is now, the part of the lower planes most matching their alignment. Or they may have migrated there because it's most spiritually concordant with them and seems best positioned as a launching point to conquer Celestia.

So yes, they aspire to one day reascend to the Upper Planes and take them over, but the more immediate threat is the dangers of the Lower Planes. The natural role of the demons is to terrorize damned souls, but the devils have banded together and built themselves a civilization of iron fortresses -- Baator -- to keep them safe from the terrors of damnation, not that it eases the fundamental pain of their fall. The demons, a force of wildness, naturally try to tear this down.

This may be part of how the devils snare mortal souls, by assuring them that life in the iron walls of Baator is nothing like the torment that evil souls not under their protection are bound for. Of course, it's not as pleasant as they make out.

It's possible that in some cases devils have tamed demons or bent them to their will, or that some devils have "gone wild" and joined the other side, but would be rare.

[Calthropstu]

Once again pathfinder to the rescue. Demons and devils look quite different there. Not to mention qlippoths.

I genuinely prefer qlippoths over demons tbh.

[Particle_Man]

Another difference might be attitude. Devils talk more. They also are more interested in converts and recruits. If they get the upper hand in a fight, they might well accept a mortal’s surrender in exchange for terms (the mortal’s soul being the most common bargaining chip but there could be other situational ones). They torture souls to get compliance and obedience.

Demons don’t talk as much (unless talking leads to their aim which is to destroy, a la The Joker (Heath Ledger version)). They want to destroy everything, including you, even if you are one of their rare and likely short-lived recruits. Trusting a demon to honour terms of surrender would be unwise, so most fights are until one side dies or escapes. They torture souls because it is fun for them.

If a devil is in your home, they likely won’t disturb things too much and might be sitting in your favourite chair and reading one of your books as they wait. If a demon is in your home it is going to be absolutely trashed. So if you know an evil outsider is in your home, checking the state of the antechamber might tell you if it is a devil or a demon.

[Drelua]

There's a reason the fallen angels would rather send out fallen mortal souls as infantry troops than risk themselves.

OTOH, outsiders only die for real on their own plane IIRC, so it's possible that the fallen angel types are not truly native to hell and are instead reborn there upon death so that they have no way to escape their eternal torment.

Yeah, I was more talking about the idea that all devils are fallen angels there. If they also have a supply of mortal souls to fill in the lower ranks, then it works. If they do come back since it's not their home plane, could be interesting if they have to sort of break out of heaven every time. Would also make it so that while a death in the blood war won't stick, it is still something to be avoided. Although I guess if we went with that we'd have to figure out why the angels aren't killing every devil that respawns there.


My point is when people want to tell a story about devils they're usually thinking of falls from grace, evil, vice and pride and not compulsive rule-following. And it seems like that part was only inserted into the D&D mythos to separate them from demons, not because it was itself especially compelling.

Fair enough, I just don't like when mental illnesses are thrown around like adjectives, can be bad for the way people view real people living with those illesses. I could have been clearer about that.

I don't think it has to be what a stories about though, any more than any character's personality has to be the focus of a story. A character quirk can just be a way of humanizing, or in this case dehumanizing, a character without having much if anything to do with the plot. I just feel that if the point is to differentiate demons from devils, then why get rid of the one big distinction? The Law/Chaos axis is a pretty D&D specific thing, but as far as I know that's the only reason the two exist as entirely separate groups. I could be wrong, I don't know much about the mythology, but I haven't seen anything from things like The Divine Comedy making the same distinction between demons and devils. A quick google search shows sources classifying Asmodeus as a demon, for example.

[Dalmosh]

Law/Chaos axis is a pretty D&D specific thing, but as far as I know that's the only reason the two exist as entirely separate groups. I could be wrong, I don't know much about the mythology, but I haven't seen anything from things like The Divine Comedy making the same distinction between demons and devils. A quick google search shows sources classifying Asmodeus as a demon, for example.

A lot of these tropes in D&D stem back from Paradise Lost, with Asmodeus and his Lords generally being very very close to Milton's depictions of [That Guy?] and his notable accomplices, and the Abyss and its denizens more corresponding to the primal chaotic void before creation into which he traverses to reach Earth (even literally meeting Pale Night in the process). This version of the Abyss is probably closer to the Elemental Chaos in 4th Edition. These are presented as destructive, primal, wild and predominantly evil entities that live in the less structured bowels of the cosmos around and above this text's analogue of Baator.

[Elves]

It's certainly where they got a couple of the demon lords:

thither he plyes,
Undaunted to meet there what ever power
Or Spirit of the nethermost Abyss
Might in that noise reside...
when strait behold the Throne
Of Chaos, and his dark Pavilion spread
Wide on the wasteful Deep; with him Enthron'd
Sat Sable-vested Night, eldest of things,
The Consort of his Reign; and by them stood
Orcus and Ades, and the dreaded name
Of Demogorgon

Thinking more about how Paradise Lost applies to the headcanon in this thread, the "prison gate" of Hell guarded by Death has echoes of Hades and Carceri, with a more traditional Grim Reaper underworld vibe. "That guy's" (I guess we're doing this) journey seems to have been from Baator -- the site of the angels' fall -- around the Great Wheel through Gehenna, Hades, Carceri (at whose extent is the gate), into the Abyss and then through Pandemonium to Limbo ("Into the wilde expanse, and through the shock/Of fighting Elements"). From Limbo, directly under Ysgard, he could see the light of the Upper Planes ("But now at last the sacred influence/Of light appears, and from the walls of Heav'n/Shoots farr into the bosom of dim Night/A glimmering dawn..."). And from Limbo he seems to have found entrance, due to its elemental connection, to the Inner Planes: "here Nature [the Inner Planes, the world of materials] first begins/Her fardest verge [that is, its border with the Outer Planes]". We can even imagine a reference to the structure of the Great Wheel, as up above, he "beholds/Farr off th' Empyreal Heav'n, extended wide/In circuit".

It's not hard to explain the lack of an actual demonic Abyss in the poem. The obyrith-like rulers Chaos and Night, who at this ancient time still rule over the younger demon lords that are today senior, say "I upon my Frontieres here/Keep residence", indicating the actual Abyss is some ways away and they have merely come out to greet him. At this early point, the Shard of Evil had only recently begun spinning the Abyss and it was much smaller and less prominent.


Edit: Here's a map of what I mean (https://i.imgur.com/gxJuMTB.png)

[Dalmosh]

I really recommend Green Ronin's Book of Fiends (Parts 1 & 2) for extending these thematic ideas, and reiterating their place within the design foundations of the Abyss and the Nine Hells within D&D.
It's a lot more adult in tone than the first party material on this stuff, and ties in a lot more directly and explicitly to a bunch of real world sources that are probably beyond the forum rules to discuss. Eric Mona cowrote this material, and has stated outright that he intended (at least the Abyss section) to synch with Fiendish Codex 1.

The Gehenna section doesn't really work for this though, and his Daemons are rather alien to existing lore on Yugoloths. I was really hoping they would riff off Planescape stuff a bit more, but seem not to have been able to do so for copyright reasons. WotC don't hold IP over lots of the core concepts and names in their material on devils and demons so 3rd party producers seem to have been a lot freer to produce additional content on them.

[Bohandas]

If you want to change the lore to fallen angels, then i guess the question becomes: How do they reproduce? Actual a/ngels are created when good souls ascend
I think that's incorrect. Guardianals, Archons, and Eladrins form from souls, but IIRC the actual per se angels are formed by some more esoteric process

[Silly Name]

Another difference might be attitude. Devils talk more. They also are more interested in converts and recruits. [...]

Demons don’t talk as much (unless talking leads to their aim which is to destroy, a la The Joker (Heath Ledger version)).

This is interesting, because I'd be inclined to portay this the other way: when dealing with mortals, devils don't like talking more than necessary (although their passion for legalese does mean "necessary" can also be long-winded and obscure), while demons are chatty and can even go into long, manic rants at the drop of a hat.

This is because devils are deceptors who can't lie, haughty and full of scorn for everything that doesn't fit into their worldview. Even among themselves, they can't stand concepts such as small-talk and chatter: pointless waste of time when we could work towards advancing our goals.

Demons, on the other hand, wear their hearts on their sleeve. Some do it literally, although it probably isn't their heart in this case. They lie all the time, of course, very often just for the sake of it, but it's relatively easy to make a demon express its true emotions, and if you ever get them in a mood they'll probably keep raving about whatever upset them for days on end, or at least until something else catches their attention.

For Final Fantasy fans, I'd compare devils to Sephiroth: threatening and creepy, but always speaking softly and cryptic even when he starts philosophising or is about to beat the hell out of you. Demons are Kefka, always on the edge of an outburst and their tantrums easily become unintelligible gibberish.

[Particle_Man]

I dunno, bone devils, horned devils, ice devils and pit fiends have good bluff skills. I would be surprised if they didn’t lie.

[Silly Name]

I dunno, bone devils, horned devils, ice devils and pit fiends have good bluff. I would be surprised if they didn’t lie.

I like to play devils as using lies by omissions and intentionally leading others to erroneous conclusions. They obfuscate the truth and play with words, but they never outright say something that's untrue. It's still technically being a liar, but the devils will insist that it's your fault you failed to parse their words correctly, not that they used ambiguous language or stuff like that. They'll cheat by doing something that's not explicitely forbidden, even though most people would consider it unfair, as long as it technically isn't against the rules - You know the movie Air Bud? The line "where does it say a dog can't play basketball?" is a pretty devil-like reasoning, in that sense.

Demons have no such compunctions, and lie and cheat without a care in the world. They do it because it's fun or amusing, not (necessarily) to advance a specific goal, but just to spread chaos and misery. They'll punch you in the face and ignore the referee calling for a foul if it amuses them, because demons don't care about pretending to be playing by the rules.

[Tvtyrant]

If you are doing a significant rewrite I would do it like this:

Demons work like Hollows from Bleach. They are dead mortal souls that get strong as they eat each other, but struggle to retain their identity as all of the souls vie for control. The named ones are all extremely powerful but rather insane as a result. The numbers are always refreshing with new mortal souls.

Devils are not mortals. There are a fixed number of immortal, endlessly respawning devils who are all fallen angels. The mortal souls are instead used as a battery to keep respawning the angels, and are slowly consumed by the process.

The Blood War is fought on rotating fronts, as dying too often wears the angels out. So the upper layers of Hell rotate as fronts to let the others rest and rebuild fortresses, and the inner layers are devoted to absorbing petitioners and building towards the final plan to destroy the Abyss.

The key difference between them becomes: the Demons are self-absorbed monsters trying to get strong and drawn to the petitioners of Hell. The Devils are desperate to break the cycle of endless rebirth.

[liquidformat]

I want to introduce an NPC in my setting that tricked a demon to give him immortality, on the condition that he would age on days when he did not work towards the completion of his quest. The demon assumed the quest was to slay the current big bad, but the real quest he was on, in his mind, was to see the whole world. Since that's impossible to complete, he's not going anywhere.

If anyone asks him if the stories are true, that he made a deal with the devil, he will tell them they're wrong on two counts. Not devil, demon. And not the, a. Don't make a deal with the big boss, make a deal with an ambitious new guy that's only been around a few centuries. And don't deal with devils, they have literal miles of contract law memorized, written in a language designed to be obtuse. Not to mention decades of training and certification, with advanced degrees in The Signing and Writing of Faustian Pacts. And about 8 different levels of inspection and approval necessary to sign a deal that varies in any way from one of several pre-written contracts.

Okay, most of this is my personal fluff, aka 'just some stuff I made up,' but the law/chaos thing can be written to be a major, clear difference. Want to tell a demon from a devil? Put up a 'Please Do Not Step on the Grass' sign. A devil will avoid the grass if it can. A demon will kick over the sign, tap dance on the grass if they don't have anything more fun to be doing, and set it on fire. I do definitely agree that they could really use a distinct design philosophy though, you could print a copy of the Monster Manual with the pictures switched and I would never notice.

I have always been bothered by the idea of demons abiding by contracts, it seems to go against their very nature just as much as a devil breaking a contract. Heck even the idea that they are capable of forming a contract rubs me the wrong way. Trying to form a contract with a demon should be like playing Russian roulette by yourself, the only thing you can be sure when doing so is that eventually you are going to shoot yourself. Or summoning a demon with planar binding should be like blindfolding yourself then being handed a stick of lit dynamite and trying to hold it as long as possible.

Anyways I also rather like the idea of fiends being focused around emotion and vice, lust, greed, sloth, pride, rage, wrath, obsession...

Another interesting take might be questioning what it means for an angel to fall. Rather than betraying its ideals or the god it represents what if all 'angels' are representatives of a god. When said god dies the angels that followed said god fall because they no longer have their guiding light and become devils.

[Particle_Man]

Another interesting take might be questioning what it means for an angel to fall. Rather than betraying its ideals or the god it represents what if all 'angels' are representatives of a god. When said god dies the angels that followed said god fall because they no longer have their guiding light and become devils.

Alternatively when their God gets corrupted to evil, that God's particular angels follow suit in a lawful manner, and become devils.

[Eldonauran]

Personally, I'd borrow a bunch of material from the Pathfinder setting and add a twist of my own, such as:

Devils: The original Devils were Angels that had fallen from grace. Their true appearance is still similar to their original forms, but as though displayed through a muddied and tarnished mirror. Their wings are feathered, blackened and molting in places. Through perversions of the natural order and tampering with souls through the means of contracts and corruption, Devils are able to shape mortal souls into mimicries of their own forms. The process is somewhat loose but detailed enough that certain procedures must be followed for a successful conversion into a new Devil. Even then, it takes time for a mortal soul to fully convert. Raw emotions and temptations have to be tempered and ordered for a Devil to be born. Devils tend to favor armor, weapons, spells and more traditional warfare but are not above resorting to their natural weapons when pressed.

Demons: The original Demons were the first failed attempts of Devils to use corruption to pervert mortal souls. Instead of through a structured processed, the souls were exposed to their Evil and tainted by Chaos in various different ways before the Devils found a process that worked. The Abyss remembers these actions and out of some sort of cosmic form of spite, its allows mortal souls that find their way to its realm to become changed, implanting the hatred that the Abyss carries for all things within it. Demons have no real set appearance, drawing on Chaos to form themselves prevents much in the way of patterns, but some things hold true. They often are misshapen or grotesque, sporting scales and wings that are more skin than scales. Demons favor their formidable natural weapons, often oversized and serrated, their natural armor, inherent spell0like abilities and all out attacks.


All-in-all: Always try to tie in the key aspects of Devils (Evil, Law, Contracts, celestial origins) and Demons (Hatred, Chaos, Evil, Hapless Destruction, etc) into how you want to present them. There will be areas where to two fiendish lines overlap, and that doesn't even bring into account the Daemons of the Pathfinder lore (NE fiends that pluck souls from the River of Souls directly when able). Devils are going to use the natural desires and pleasures to create a form of perverted Order, while Demons are simply going to use them for destruction and self-serving ends.

[Drelua]

I have always been bothered by the idea of demons abiding by contracts, it seems to go against their very nature just as much as a devil breaking a contract. Heck even the idea that they are capable of forming a contract rubs me the wrong way. Trying to form a contract with a demon should be like playing Russian roulette by yourself, the only thing you can be sure when doing so is that eventually you are going to shoot yourself. Or summoning a demon with planar binding should be like blindfolding yourself then being handed a stick of lit dynamite and trying to hold it as long as possible.

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

Also, sounds like I need to read Paradise Lost. That might be my next book.

[liquidformat]

1) How could the appearances of existing baatezu and tan'ari be changed to reflect this?

A particular problem is balors vs. pit fiends. They look the same. What's a cool new appearance for a balor that differentiates it?

It seems right for it to be larger than the pit fiend, because its job is to punish and terrorize it, and because it's more of a "force of nature". Maybe if a pit fiend and a balor met, it would be the tiny figure of a bat-winged warrior in black armor, corrupted but retaining its dignity and pride, against a huge, molting specter of shadow and fire that curls and towers above it like a cloud of smoke. The devil stings its foe with a flaming spear, and the wounded balor resolves into a chimeric, many-horned monstrosity whose open mouth glows molten. If the devils are infernal "Mankind" and the demons are infernal "Nature", the devil is a corrupted version of an ancient Greek hero (with the fatal flaw to match -- the vice that made it fall) and the demon is the hydra or chimera, but even more horrible. So maybe you put the balor on all fours.

Or scrap the balor, what's a better concept for a CR 20 top dog demon? Tolkien's balrog fits more in the "devil/fallen angel" category anyway.

The ice devil and bone devil also need appearance reworks to fit the fallen angel idea. And almost all the demons are too human and not exotic enough.
There are a decent number of fiends in both categories that don't seem to fit your idea; Balor, Quasit, and Succubus all present issues on the Demon side and as Drelua said the Succubus in particular is a bit weird as a demon.

Honestly I might pull Succubus over to the Devil side and either make it less powerful or increase the power of the Erinyes. I could see the Succubus working well nerfed down to 2-3HD/ 2-3CR keeping energy drain and shape change then having charm person, detect good, detect thoughts and suggestion as SLAs

Balor you could go more bestial dumping the vorpal sword and instead give it a horn attack that is vorpal, adding in claws instead of slams, but keeping the fire whip. I am thinking gorilla/minotaur + bat wings.

Quasit lean into the flying demon monkey where as imp go for Fiendish cherub.

On the devil side just make Lemures 'lost souls' just emaciated looking humanoid with pale skin and gaunt features, they are damned souls after all.

Ice Devil and or bone might just be better being moved over to the demon side, though you could reskin the ice devil into a frozen giant humanoid I suppose.

You could make the bone devil into some crazy humanoid who has sharp bone spurs jutting out for claws and spinal 'tail' while also having bone growths coming out as an exoskeleton.



2) What are some consistent visual traits that could unite each category?
One idea is that devils wear arms and armor, oftentimes the desecrated versions of their old angelic armaments, while demons rarely do. A devil army marches with breastplates and spears, while the demons are a slavering, naked, fanged mass.

Also, unlike the demons, they should have sophisticated war machines. Another Paradise Lost quote gives an idea for these:

Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way,
Turning our tortures into horrid arms
Against the torturer...

The devils have taken the hazards of the underworld as weapons for their own use. So their war machines should burn with and shoot hellfire and be powered by infernal combustion engines.

3) Mechanically, how could the creatures be modified to reflect these ideas?
For devils, obvious start is to give them angels' protective aura and tongues.
For demons, a start is to template them with stuff like multiheaded. Or instead of tan'ari, in many cases, just use fiendish and half-fiend monsters of other types.

I'm just spitballing and thinking out loud here, but any response is welcome.

One interesting thing you could do which is purely cosmetic is give all winged Devils black feather wings and keep all winged demon with bat like wings.

[Bohandas]

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

I personally imagine succubi as being more about starting drama and spreading STDs

[XionUnborn01]

The fact that they're stuck in a battle with demons and would need a lot of new Angels falling to keep up numbers gives me an idea.

I'm speaking from 3.5 terms as that's what I'm most familiar with. What if demons had a tighter range of CR but a lower ceiling? Then we have high ranking devils being fallen angels with a higher CR and the low ranking devils are a mix of both other fallen celestial beings and then some low ranking ones are also created by the devils themselves similar to the process it is now (starting at lemures and then making their way up to a a low CR cap. These are lesser devils.)
So it would look like this in general:

CR 16+ is high ranking fallen angels and possibly a handful of 'manufactured' lesser devils.
CR 10-18 is the general range of demons. Possibly some that are lower cr and a handful of big beefy special demons if higher CR.
CR 10> would be the low ranking devils. These are the lemures, imps, and so on. the ones that deal more heavily with mortals and attempting to steal souls. More expendable and they probably answer to a specific angel.

This kind of answers why there doesn't need to be swaths of angels falling daily to keep numbers of high ranking devils up. The angels are stronger than most every demon but the demons have huge numbers advantages.

The lesser devils keep the cycle of corruption going and keep new souls coming to create more low ranking shock troop devils

[Crake]

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

Demon's have no use for souls. Unlike baator, the abyss doesn't need souls to create new demons, but the abyss itself is more of a reflection of the evils of the material (it's how the tanar'ri came into existence, when the material plane developed intelligent life and began commiting evils against one another, vs the obyrith which are more of a primordial chaos). Thus, the goal of demons isn't souls per se, it's the spreading of evil and chaos throughout the material. What happens with your soul is of little consequence, and succubi in particular, are more likely to simply devour it using their energy drain ability than trap it in a gem and use it as a currency for barter.

[Drelua]

Demon's have no use for souls. Unlike baator, the abyss doesn't need souls to create new demons, but the abyss itself is more of a reflection of the evils of the material (it's how the tanar'ri came into existence, when the material plane developed intelligent life and began commiting evils against one another, vs the obyrith which are more of a primordial chaos). Thus, the goal of demons isn't souls per se, it's the spreading of evil and chaos throughout the material. What happens with your soul is of little consequence, and succubi in particular, are more likely to simply devour it using their energy drain ability than trap it in a gem and use it as a currency for barter.

Hm, it's a good thing I'm the GM then. :smallwink:

Although they do have leaders, even if it's just because demons do what you say if they know you could beat up a balor. Well, they do what you say while you're looking. Those leaders might have a use for souls, even if it's just to trade them. Or to torment a good person that was willing to give up his afterlife to stop a bad guy. It works in my setting, I might just have to rethink a few details for an official world, which is good to know.

[Crake]

Hm, it's a good thing I'm the GM then. :smallwink:

Although they do have leaders, even if it's just because demons do what you say if they know you could beat up a balor. Well, they do what you say while you're looking. Those leaders might have a use for souls, even if it's just to trade them. Or to torment a good person that was willing to give up his afterlife to stop a bad guy. It works in my setting, I might just have to rethink a few details for an official world, which is good to know.

Right right, I was more speaking on like, a macro scale. Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce. Devils have the pact primeval that ensures an individual signing a faustian pact will have their soul damned to baator to be churned through the infernal soul engine, demons on the other hand must enforce contracts themselves, either through some kind of binding magic (see below), or through force should the contract be broken, though, at that point, if the demon can just do it through force, why not just start there?

Fiends of corruption and blasphemy are two good methods for demons to be able to supernaturally bind a victim's soul to themselves, but they're something a demon would need to invest time and experience into learning, so it's not something just any demon could do on a whim.

[Elves]

Another interesting take might be questioning what it means for an angel to fall. Rather than betraying its ideals or the god it represents what if all 'angels' are representatives of a god. When said god dies the angels that followed said god fall because they no longer have their guiding light and become devils.
Yeah that's kind of interesting. More of the philosophical take on damnation. But could just as well be fuel for a body of "godless angels" whose patrons have died.


The fact that they're stuck in a battle with demons and would need a lot of new Angels falling to keep up numbers gives me an idea.
I think the idea that the devil footsoldiers are mortal souls and the fallen angels rarely risk themselves is enough explanation.


Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce.
That's a fair distinction. Devils tempt, demons possess. Outside the Material Plane, demons might simply consume a soul to increase their own power. Could be a very "vore" thing where demons become bigger and badder by consuming souls (including other demons, among them mortal souls that have become demons). Which reinforces the attraction of a devil's temptation -- yeah, you'll end up in Baator, but the alternative is you'll be out in the wild and your soul will get eaten by a demon.

[Crake]

That's a fair distinction. Devils tempt, demons possess. Outside the Material Plane, demons might simply consume a soul to increase their own power. Could be a very "vore" thing where demons become bigger and badder by consuming souls (including other demons, among them mortal souls that have become demons). Which reinforces the attraction of a devil's temptation -- yeah, you'll end up in Baator, but the alternative is you'll be out in the wild and your soul will get eaten by a demon.

I... Uhh... once had a demon consume 100,000 souls all at once, and gave him 10 xp for each one using the dark crafting xp conversion in BoVD >.>... He instantly become a demon lord. Still, to his credit, he set up a soul trap 1000 years in the past and convinced an island of amazonians to worship him shortly after their goddess died in a planar war... That campaign was wild.

Point is, yes, consuming souls like cheerios is also something demons could do :smalltongue:

[Mordante]

The way how I play it is that demons are more a force of negative nature. They are unthinking brutes that act purely on instinct. Devils are sentient beings, who can build societies of their own. Devils are mostly not about brute force, they are more prone to use deception. Think Faust.

IMHO a demon can't die it can be defeated and it will be banished but it will return and if left unchecked it will become powerful again. Devils for the most part can breed/create offspring.

[Crake]

The way how I play it is that demons are more a force of negative nature. They are unthinking brutes that act purely on instinct. Devils are sentient beings, who can build societies of their own. Devils are mostly not about brute force, they are more prone to use deception. Think Faust.

IMHO a demon can't die it can be defeated and it will be banished but it will return and if left unchecked it will become powerful again. Devils for the most part can breed/create offspring.

Actually, the primary method of reproduction for devils is taking souls damned to hell and churning them through the infernal engine, where they come out the other side as lemures, and, should they perform well enough, they can be promoted to a more conscious state of devilhood. All fiends are capable of breeding and creating half-fiend spawn however, demon or devil alike.

As for demons, I think people need to get used to removing the "unthinking" part from demons. Demons are very much thinking, cunning, wily, and wicked in their ways. What they ARE however, is highly impulsive. If you consider demons and devils on the myers briggs personality types, Devils are hardcore thinkers, while demons are hardcore feelers.

[Mordante]

Actually, the primary method of reproduction for devils is taking souls damned to hell and churning them through the infernal engine, where they come out the other side as lemures, and, should they perform well enough, they can be promoted to a more conscious state of devilhood. All fiends are capable of breeding and creating half-fiend spawn however, demon or devil alike.

As for demons, I think people need to get used to removing the "unthinking" part from demons. Demons are very much thinking, cunning, wily, and wicked in their ways. What they ARE however, is highly impulsive. If you consider demons and devils on the myers briggs personality types, Devils are hardcore thinkers, while demons are hardcore feelers.

Maybe it's not according to D&D rules. However the DM is always right. But in my world devils a race and society whom has very or little contact with the rest of the world. They are not that interested in humans, elves, dwarfs etc. Devils have their own kingdoms, cities, laws etc.

Also Meyers Briggs is highly questionable. I don't see much value in it.

[Eldan]

The reason why devils sign contracts for souls is, for me, quite easy: it's how players interact with them. Devils buy souls because that's a plot hook. So that's their mode of reproduction. Devils having children gives the occasional plot hook, but much less than "buy back the soul of the quest giver" or "person you slighted earlier in the campaign comes back for revenge with much more power after selling their soul".

[Crake]

Maybe it's not according to D&D rules. However the DM is always right. But in my world devils a race and society whom has very or little contact with the rest of the world. They are not that interested in humans, elves, dwarfs etc. Devils have their own kingdoms, cities, laws etc.

I mean, yeah sure, but we are talking about the standard D&D planescape setting, so...


Also Meyers Briggs is highly questionable. I don't see much value in it.

You're missing the point, taking a meyers briggs test might be questionable, but the traits they talk about are observable, quantifiable traits. I'm not saying go take a test, but devils being thinkers and demons being feelers, whats questionable about that?

[Particle_Man]

Maybe another way to look at it is at their good and neutral parallels.

What are LG outsiders like? What are CG outsiders like?

What are LN outsiders like? What are CN outsiders like?

That might give some idea as to how LE outsiders differ from CE outsiders.

[Drelua]

Right right, I was more speaking on like, a macro scale. Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce. Devils have the pact primeval that ensures an individual signing a faustian pact will have their soul damned to baator to be churned through the infernal soul engine, demons on the other hand must enforce contracts themselves, either through some kind of binding magic (see below), or through force should the contract be broken, though, at that point, if the demon can just do it through force, why not just start there?

Fiends of corruption and blasphemy are two good methods for demons to be able to supernaturally bind a victim's soul to themselves, but they're something a demon would need to invest time and experience into learning, so it's not something just any demon could do on a whim.

Hm, I had completely forgotten how the pact primeval works, it's been years since I flipped through either fiendish codex. The idea of demons having very different methods of interacting with other planes is interesting, too many things have whichever show up just as a thing to fight. The idea of devils mainly wanting to corrupt mortals while demons will only do that if ripping off your face is not currently an option, and they would like to trick you into assisting them into face ripping range through some ritual, is an interesting way to differentiate them. If demons don't have a reliable way to get your soul when you die, unless they can turn you chaotic evil, then just devouring you at their earliest opportunity makes a sort of sense.

I'm going to rethink the details of that character's deal, this thread is giving me a lot of ideas. Demons can certainly be smart, but it's sort of a predator's cunning, used just to get their teeth into you. Devils might want you to think you're their friend, and be hesitant to resort to violence since someone they kill is someone they can't use. I feel like they're very distinct in the ways their home planes are set up, but once you start interacting with them all that falls away and it's just a big scary monster. Focusing on the ways they act rather than their stats seems like an easier, but more effective way than fiddling with stats to make them entirely different sorts of threats. Getting rid of a demon should be a different sort of mission than getting rid of a devil, I think.

Regarding MBTI, it's worth noting that it was invented by someone with zero training in psychology, and a history of writing some extremely racist books. Not much is known about her, but from what I've seen none of it's good. Completely get what you mean though, the thinking versus feeling thing is valid here. It's just when it's used on people that it gets questionable to me.

[Elves]

This has been mostly on the conceptual side so far, but I'm also thinking about mechanics. Say you were going to replace their summon baatezu/summon tan'ari abilities with a very thematic ability that brought out the fallen angel/mutating chaos monster themes, any ideas? One thing suggested by above would be to give baatezu a temptation ability and tan'ari a consume souls ability.

[Crake]

This has been mostly on the conceptual side so far, but I'm also thinking about mechanics. Say you were going to replace their summon baatezu/summon tan'ari abilities with a very thematic ability that brought out the fallen angel/mutating chaos monster themes, any ideas? One thing suggested by above would be to give baatezu a temptation ability and tan'ari a consume souls ability.

I think the demon's summon tanar'ri ability fits perfectly with the notion that demons are endless in number, and it's also worth noting that their ability to summon more demons is taken into their CR. I can understand the desire to give devils something different, but it would have to be a rather substantial ability to make up for it, perhaps something that gives them disposable minions in a similar way that a summon would, maybe they can call upon an assortment of NPCs that they've made pacts with, who's CR equals the devils they would otherwise have been able to summon?

[Silly Name]

I think the demon's summon tanar'ri ability fits perfectly with the notion that demons are endless in number, and it's also worth noting that their ability to summon more demons is taken into their CR. I can understand the desire to give devils something different, but it would have to be a rather substantial ability to make up for it, perhaps something that gives them disposable minions in a similar way that a summon would, maybe they can call upon an assortment of NPCs that they've made pacts with, who's CR equals the devils they would otherwise have been able to summon?

That's honestly a bit of an hassle as a GM, as you then have to come up with various NPCs statblocks of assorted CR. You could have some premades, but they would still produce a very big list with very big character sheets as we go up in level.
Being able to refer to Monster Manual entries is very useful, especially if you have some familiarity with the various summoned creatures.

Assuming temptation and corruption is the theme we want to stick with, my first instinct is to translate it into battle with charms and mind-affecting abilities. The kind of supernatural abilities that make it easier for devils to convince mortals to make a deal.

[Crake]

That's honestly a bit of an hassle as a GM, as you then have to come up with various NPCs statblocks of assorted CR. You could have some premades, but they would still produce a very big list with very big character sheets as we go up in level.
Being able to refer to Monster Manual entries is very useful, especially if you have some familiarity with the various summoned creatures.

Perhaps for the more line-warrior devils this is true, but for the villain of an adventure, I think it's fair game.


Assuming temptation and corruption is the theme we want to stick with, my first instinct is to translate it into battle with charms and mind-affecting abilities. The kind of supernatural abilities that make it easier for devils to convince mortals to make a deal.

The pact primeval requires that there be absolutely no charming or magical coercion involved, otherwise the contract is completely null and void, so charms and mind-affecting would be the last thing devils would want.

[Silly Name]

Perhaps for the more line-warrior devils this is true, but for the villain of an adventure, I think it's fair game.

True, but at that point it's less of a special ability and more of a web of resources that any villain should have. It's no different from humanoid villains calling in favours, using their minions or exerting influence through various means.

Now that I think of it, for lesser devils/frontline warriors, we could create a few "Imprisoned Soul"-type monsters that they can call forth to aid in combat or other missions. Different versions would be at different CR and have different abilities, hinting at what kind of person they were in life, but by now they are unrecognisable after who knows how many years spent in servitude of a devil. This could even be the first step to devilhood for mortal souls, eliminating lemures: spend a certain amount of time in service to hellish powers, and once you've proved yourself you get promoted. I think it would be a tad more appealing than "get turned into a ooze-like monstrosity that's gonna get tortured until it's completely stripped of personality and memories".


The pact primeval requires that there be absolutely no charming or magical coercion involved, otherwise the contract is completely null and void, so charms and mind-affecting would be the last thing devils would want.

Since those are non-standard D&D devils by now, I guess we could just rule in this hypothetical alteration there's no Pact Primeval, or it contains some loophole the devils have learnt to exploit. But that's a bit cheap, I agree. I still think at this point playing in the theme of corruption and temptation would work, though, but I can't really think of any special ability that fits neatly.

[Crake]

Since those are non-standard D&D devils by now, I guess we could just rule in this hypothetical alteration there's no Pact Primeval, or it contains some loophole the devils have learnt to exploit. But that's a bit cheap, I agree. I still think at this point playing in the theme of corruption and temptation would work, though, but I can't really think of any special ability that fits neatly.

Combat-wise, perhaps not, but utility wise, abilities that allow devils to fulfill basic mortal desires without the need for a contract of some kind, as a sort of foot in the door ability, things like imbue with spell ability, or creation-type abilities, pathfinder has the spellcasting contract spell, which is like imbue with spell ability on steroids, maybe allow it to transfer some uses of it's own SLAs, though now at this point I'm basically describing the fiend of corruption and fiend of blasphemy prestige classes.

[liquidformat]

It seems to me all devils should have Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive as class skills. Currently that isn't true, Chain Devils for example only have intimidate. Also for the more beat stick melee devils they should have intimidate. From a modification point of view this isn't much of a change but it falls more in line with devils.

Decipher Script, Forgery, and maybe Slight of Hand should also be common on many devils I would imagine. After all they are supposed to be masters at creating and understanding contracts (Decipher Script, all about that fine print). Forgery would be used for things like turning the decretive boarder of your contract into 'fine print' also for devious alterations before both parties have signed the contracts. Slight of Hand would be used for things like swapping out or slipping in extra pages to contracts before they are signed.

On the other hand, more powerful demons might have bluff or intimidate and sense motives but diplomacy and the other skills don't seem very relevant to them.

[Bohandas]

Regarding demons and souls, I think their main concern is less about claiming souls for the abyss and more about making sure they don't get claimed for baator. So most temptation they would do would be aimed at causing people who are already evil to become chaotic, as well as sabotaging the stability of tyrannical empires (not merely the stability of regimes mind you, of the stability of the empires themselves, ESPECIALLY if there are a lot of regime changes, as a Tarquin style parade of revolutions could be a very efficient machine for breeding cruelty and obesience. Hatred for the cruelty of the old boss breeds slavish devotion to the new boss but the new boss is the same as the old boss and so the cycle repeats. The most direct solution to break the cycle is to desteoy the infrastructure of governance, so that there can't be any boss)

[liquidformat]

Regarding demons and souls, I think their main concern is less about claiming souls for the abyss and more about making sure they don't get claimed for baator. So most temptation they would do would be aimed at causing people who are already evil to become chaotic, as well as sabotaging the stability of tyrannical empires (not merely the stability of regimes mind you, of the stability of the empires themselves, ESPECIALLY if there are a lot of regime changes, as a Tarquin style parade of revolutions could be a very efficient machine for breeding cruelty and obesience. Hatred for the cruelty of the old boss breeds slavish devotion to the new boss but the new boss is the same as the old boss and so the cycle repeats. The most direct solution to break the cycle is to desteoy the infrastructure of governance, so that there can't be any boss)

It should be not letting anyone else claim the souls not just Baator, they equally don't want the gods to have souls either. So if they can corrupt you to CE great if not eating your soul is just as good.

[Elves]

The word "devil" apparently means slanderer (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=devil) which makes the emphasis of the temptation aspect for them appropriate.

[MR_Anderson]

The easiest and most reliable way to differ between Devils and Demons for your players is...

1) to have Demons driven by emotion so much that their emotions basically extend through their will to do evil, in such they take to the Chaotic Alignment that they are given.

2) to have Devils in much more control, if not absolute control of their emotions. This makes them in control of their will through their mind, an evil mind. Making Devils not prone to Chaos, but rather being creatures of structure and order, Lawful.

It is almost as if that Demons could spawn from any emotional disturbance, but Devils require a willful choice of an actual being knowing what they are doing to become a Devil.