What is 5e's equivalent to Shadow Magic?

[Nikushimi]

Hey there. Currently going through character ideas and I have one that is going to be a Life Cleric/Druid of Stars whose "Deity" or the one they follow is the Raven Queen. As such, I plan on being a Shadar-Kai, or possibly a Human who "became" one. Something like that.

Anyways, after reading up on the Shadar-Kai it says that they prefer to use Illusion and Shadow Magic, but there's not really "Shadow Magic" per-se in 5e. There's the Shadow Magic Sorcerer, but that's not what I'm looking for.

What would be the equivalent of Shadow Magic in 5e? Necromancy? Illusion? Enchantment? Or any specific spells? Possibly Shadow Blade, but that is a bit more on the Sorcerer spell list. I mean, I might decide to go Divine Soul Sorcerer or something similar. This character will be used and we need a healer, but I'd like to still have some thematic spells.

Anyways, thanks for any info!

[Unoriginal]

Hey there. Currently going through character ideas and I have one that is going to be a Life Cleric/Druid of Stars whose "Deity" or the one they follow is the Raven Queen. As such, I plan on being a Shadar-Kai, or possibly a Human who "became" one. Something like that.

Anyways, after reading up on the Shadar-Kai it says that they prefer to use Illusion and Shadow Magic, but there's not really "Shadow Magic" per-se in 5e. There's the Shadow Magic Sorcerer, but that's not what I'm looking for.

What would be the equivalent of Shadow Magic in 5e? Necromancy? Illusion? Enchantment? Or any specific spells? Possibly Shadow Blade, but that is a bit more on the Sorcerer spell list. I mean, I might decide to go Divine Soul Sorcerer or something similar. This character will be used and we need a healer, but I'd like to still have some thematic spells.

Anyways, thanks for any info!

Unless I'm mistaken, shadow magic was mostly Illusion spells which were somewhat real.

So playing an Illunionist Wizard can get you that?


On the other hand, I really recommend to read the 5e stuff about Shadar-kai and not care about what previous editions say. They really changed the lore concerning them. Also the lore about the Raven Queen.

[Nikushimi]

Unless I'm mistaken, shadow magic was mostly Illusion spells which were somewhat real.

So playing an Illunionist Wizard can get you that?


On the other hand, I really recommend to read the 5e stuff about Shadar-kai and not care about what previous editions say. They really changed the lore concerning them. Also the lore about the Raven Queen.

Yeah, I did. I read the section on Shadar-Kai in Mordenkainens and on the Forgotten Realms wiki and other sources to kinda get the flavor I want. I also read up on the Raven Queen in several sources. Including her section in Mordenkainens.

But, just thought I'd ask to see what spells would resemble or might be considered "Shadow Magic". It may be outdated info, but it's still info on them. Depending on how my DM decides to do things, outdated info may still be used.

[Dork_Forge]

Honestly the Shadow Monk feels like it does a pretty good job of representing 'Shadow Magic.'

Gloomstalker Ranger would do a decent job here too, the enhanced Darkvision and invisibility to thise needing it to see you are on theme and some Ranger spells easily add into it.

I'm not familiar with past editions of D&D but when I think shadow magic from other sources of fiction, illusion, stealth and short range travel come to mind (Black Magic Outlaw series on Kindle Unlimited has a shadow mage as the protagonist that is influencing me here), so a grab bag I'd suggest:

-Minor Illusion

-Darkness

-Shadow of Moil

-Shadow Blade

-Pass without Trace

-Invisibility

-Misty Step

[Kane0]

Warlock sounds like a possible fit too, especially with the at-will silent image invocation

[Elbeyon]

You could play a normal mage and say your magic is totally "100% real shadow" magic. That was the big deal in past edditions? A common goal was to get 100% real shadow magic. "Here is my familiar! He totally isn't a real familiar, but is a 100% real illusion!"

[Rukelnikov]

You could play a normal mage and say your magic is totally "100% real shadow" magic. That was the big deal in past edditions? A common goal was to get 100% real shadow magic. "Here is my familiar! He totally isn't a real familiar, but is a 100% real illusion!"

That was indeed a common goal, that doesn't mean at that point it was equivalent to "standard weave magic".

The many shadow conjuration/transmutation/evocation etc spells were like "mini" wishes, you could use your 5th lvl slot to cast an illusion of almost any 4th level or lower spell of said school, and it would only be x% real.

So as with any illusion they had to save to realize it's not real. If they failed, they believe it's real and suffer it's normal effects. If they see thru the illusion it still partially affects them, since it's partly real.

If it dealt damage it only inflicted x% damage, otherwise it only had a x% chance of causing its effect, after all it's just an illusion of a spell.

However if you got it to 100% you had almost unparalleled versatility.

And if went above 100% your illusions were actually stronger than the real thing.

tl;dr: making illusions of other spells

[RogueJK]

What would be the equivalent of Shadow Magic in 5e? Necromancy? Illusion? Enchantment? Or any specific spells?

The new Shadow Touched feat from Tasha's involves exposure to the Shadowfell giving you access to Illusion and Necromancy magic. So spells from those two schools would be a good baseline. Beyond that, consider spells from other schools that have a shadow/mist/darkness component: Misty Step, Darkness, Summon Shadowspawn, Blink, Gaseous Form, Pass Without Trace, etc.

Unfortunately, Clerics and Druids don't really get access to many of the above, with an arcane caster like an Illusionist Wizard or Shadow Sorcerer being the better option for a Shadow Magic-style full caster. But other spells that involve Cold or Necrotic damage would also likely be thematically appropriate. And you could reflavor just about any spell your character casts (except perhaps some of the directly light-related ones like Daylight) to include a shadow component or shadowy flavor, even without any mechanical changes.

[Selion]

Hey there. Currently going through character ideas and I have one that is going to be a Life Cleric/Druid of Stars whose "Deity" or the one they follow is the Raven Queen. As such, I plan on being a Shadar-Kai, or possibly a Human who "became" one. Something like that.

Anyways, after reading up on the Shadar-Kai it says that they prefer to use Illusion and Shadow Magic, but there's not really "Shadow Magic" per-se in 5e. There's the Shadow Magic Sorcerer, but that's not what I'm looking for.

What would be the equivalent of Shadow Magic in 5e? Necromancy? Illusion? Enchantment? Or any specific spells? Possibly Shadow Blade, but that is a bit more on the Sorcerer spell list. I mean, I might decide to go Divine Soul Sorcerer or something similar. This character will be used and we need a healer, but I'd like to still have some thematic spells.

Anyways, thanks for any info!

Shadow conjuration/evocation spells have been removed for the sake of simplicity, You can mix a bit of illusion, necromancy and conjuration (summon shadows) to pose as a shadow caster, but, even better, or yuo can just play a hexblade and rock with shadow pets, phantasmal force, black tentacles, being a wonderful front liner AND the face of the group. Pretty outstanding

[Tanarii]

Shadow Magic was a kind of illusion spell in older editions that used semi-real shadow-stuff mixed up with the purely visual illusion.

The 5e equivalent would be illusion spells that affect tactile sense, or cause damage, or otherwise actually directly affect physical things.

So Phantom Steed and Mirage Arcane in the PHB

[Gyor]

Shadow Magic themed subclasses would be Arcane Trickster, Shadow Sorcerer, Trickery Domain, Twilight Domain, Hexblade, Illusionist, College of Whispers, Circle of Spores.

[RogueJK]

Shadow Magic themed subclasses would be Arcane Trickster, Shadow Sorcerer, Trickery Domain, Twilight Domain, Hexblade, Illusionist, College of Whispers, Circle of Spores.

Along with potentially subclasses like the Death Domain and Necromancer. In prior editions, the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen were much more closely tied to Death/Undeath/Souls, but even in 5E it retains some links to that, as detailed in the text of things like the Hexblade, Shadow, Nightwalker, or Strahd.

[Unoriginal]

Shadow Magic themed subclasses would be Arcane Trickster, Shadow Sorcerer, Trickery Domain, Twilight Domain, Hexblade, Illusionist, College of Whispers, Circle of Spores.


Along with potentially subclasses like the Death Domain and Necromancer.

Phantom Rogue would also fit a servant of the Raven queen.


In prior editions, the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen were much more closely tied to Death/Undeath/Souls, but even in 5E it retains some links to that, as detailed in the text of things like the Hexblade, Shadow, or Nightwalker.

Well the Mordenkainen's makes the fact that the Raven Queen is a soul-snatcher pretty explicit.

[stoutstien]

Illusory dragon is the only thing that springs to mind.

[Tanarii]

Illusory dragon is the only thing that springs to mind.Also in XTGe, Shadow Blade.

There really aren't many illusions that affect physical things in 5e. I only count four total in the PHB and XtGE.

[stoutstien]

Also in XTGe, Shadow Blade.

Aye. Good call.

[RogueJK]

Illusory dragon is the only thing that springs to mind.


Also in XTGe, Shadow Blade.

Creation is explicitly Shadow Magic as well.



There really aren't many illusions that affect physical things in 5e. I only count four total in the PHB and XtGE.

I count 6, of which 3 specifically involve "gathering threads of shadow":

Shadow Blade
Phantom Steed
Creation
Mirage Arcane
Simulacrum
Illusory Dragon

[Tanarii]

Creation is explicitly Shadow Magic as well.Nice, I overlooked it.


SimulacrumI real the "partially real" part as being "formed of ice and snow". Not shadow.

[RogueJK]

Nice, I overlooked it.

I real the "partially real" part as being "formed of ice and snow". Not shadow.

That's on the list of "illusions that affect the physical world", not the "Shadow Magic" list.

[Tanarii]

That's on the list of "illusions that affect the physical world", not the "Shadow Magic" list.
Okay, granted it definitely does that.

[PattThe]

Shadow Blade:
2nd-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand.


Creation:
5th-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny piece of matter of the same type of the item you plan to create)
Duration: Special

You pull wisps of shadow material from the Shadowfell to create a nonliving object of vegetable matter within range: soft goods, rope, wood, or something similar. You can also use this spell to create mineral objects such as stone, crystal, or metal. The object created must be no larger than a 5-foot cube, and the object must be of a form and material that you have seen before.

Creation makes the connection concrete. Shadow of moil and conjuration magics are the only other spells that regard shadow, and with Moil being necromancy it's basically uncategorized with how arbitrary that school is.

Shadow plane shadowfel specifics get too bogged down in specific crystal spheres and many editions of game changes. Simply put, shadow magic and illusion magic are one in the same, with Illusion being the supercategory of the two. Shadow magic can be assumed to be the reality behind illusion spells. Relying on psychic damage when drawing from an energy source currently associated with extreme antipathy is kind of neat.

One could say that the illusion spells which don't have any stick to them are just arcana and that Shadow Magic is more present in empowering the meatier illusion spells that have a real kick to them.
Look at either of these elements enough and the relationship between in-world wizards and the game design that surrounds them will undoubtedly create a mess due to the fuzzy lore for Shadows in D&D and the history of Illusions spells needing to be discussed and rationalized at the table to various extents over time. All illusionists are tapping into both long-upheld and ancient game design of classic Illusion spells as well as the long since abandoned and forever twisted/undefined cosmology problems with Shadow when they cast their illusion spells. Shadow Magic's original spell entry was actually there to mimic other more common spells. If the target were convinced the Shadow Magic fireball was a real fireball, they'd take real fireball damage. If not, they'd take a smaller amount of damage. Really, it's a meta trick from what I can assume its usage was intended.


It makes sense for this school to be so strange, given the legacy of illusion spells being as powerful as the DM and Players allow them since the very beginning. Perhaps, in a meta sense, Shadow Magic gives illusion spells of old a level of consistency that allows them to be more closely controlled by text and descriptive spell tables- not to mention reigning in effects to 5e's standards. Shadow Magic got added to the Illusion spells to make a more workable alloy for future designers. Call it partial conjuration if you really need to, but every school overlaps one another. After all, few wizards ask "how to my illusions actually work" than ask "what are the limits of my illusions". The latter being a question asked for over 40 years now, lol.

[RogueJK]

Creation makes the connection concrete. Shadow of moil and conjuration magics are the only other spells that regard shadow, and with Moil being necromancy it's basically uncategorized with how arbitrary that school is.

Illusory Dragon uses the same language as Creation, concretely stating "By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon..."

[Dr. Cliché]

That was indeed a common goal, that doesn't mean at that point it was equivalent to "standard weave magic".

The many shadow conjuration/transmutation/evocation etc spells were like "mini" wishes, you could use your 5th lvl slot to cast an illusion of almost any 4th level or lower spell of said school, and it would only be x% real.

So as with any illusion they had to save to realize it's not real. If they failed, they believe it's real and suffer it's normal effects. If they see thru the illusion it still partially affects them, since it's partly real.

If it dealt damage it only inflicted x% damage, otherwise it only had a x% chance of causing its effect, after all it's just an illusion of a spell.

However if you got it to 100% you had almost unparalleled versatility.

And if went above 100% your illusions were actually stronger than the real thing.

tl;dr: making illusions of other spells

Slight aside but how was this accomplished?

I thought Shadow illusions in 3.5 had fixed percentages for how real they were?

[Naanomi]

In prior editions, the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen were much more closely tied to Death/Undeath/Souls
Well... Prior edition anyways, both are 4e inventions The earlier versions of the plane of shadow were not linked to undead... Except shadows... Most dwelled in the Ethereal and were tied to the more-accessible-but-just-barely negative energy plane (negative material plane if we go back far enough)

In 2e Shadow was just a well known demiplane, in 3e it was a full plane that connected to other cosmologies. It wasn't until 4e that it had a 'near' aspect that mirrored the material worlds.

Lorewise, the Plane of Shadows once was the point where the negative and positive energy planes directly contacted, way before the modern configuration of the planes. Shadow Magic worked because of the echos of those energies (1e lore said that most magic was done by calling on energy from the negative and positive planes and mixing them the right ways). The development of the inner planes sent the shadow 'adrift' when the energy planes connected with them (something that has since changed with 5e that has again seperated the inner planes from the energy planes... More akin to their 1e depictions


Slight aside but how was this accomplished?

I thought Shadow illusions in 3.5 had fixed percentages for how real they were?
Prestige classes mostly

[PattThe]

Illusory Dragon uses the same language as Creation, concretely stating "By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon..."

Nice. Yeah, Shadow and Illusion are two books bound together and rewritten as one, with the back of the volume saying "don't read too far into me, this school is entirely up to you and your DM anyway just explain it away with shadowstuff. What? Conjuration? Nahhh, don't worry about it."

[Rukelnikov]

Slight aside but how was this accomplished?

I thought Shadow illusions in 3.5 had fixed percentages for how real they were?


Prestige classes mostly

Yeah :smalltongue:

[anthon]

The new Shadow Touched feat from Tasha's involves exposure to the Shadowfell giving you access to Illusion and Necromancy magic. So spells from those two schools would be a good baseline. Beyond that, consider spells from other schools that have a shadow/mist/darkness component: Misty Step, Darkness, Summon Shadowspawn, Blink, Gaseous Form, Pass Without Trace, etc.

Unfortunately, Clerics and Druids don't really get access to many of the above, with an arcane caster like an Illusionist Wizard or Shadow Sorcerer being the better option for a Shadow Magic-style full caster. But other spells that involve Cold or Necrotic damage would also likely be thematically appropriate. And you could reflavor just about any spell your character casts (except perhaps some of the directly light-related ones like Daylight) to include a shadow component or shadowy flavor, even without any mechanical changes.

im inclined to agree the tasha stuff has a better layout for shadow.


1st edition illusions could kill a whole party or even army with low level illusions because if the enemy believed it, the damage was real - burning, drowning, or being crushed by a giant club were all possible.

This versatility was passed on in spirit to the Shadow Magic/Monster spell groups in 2nd edition. What happened in 3/3.5 i dont know, but the clone-any-spell/monster power has no logical variant in 5e.

The closest being druids of moon, true polymorph, and possibly simulacrum/snow golem. Toss in a Chromatic Orb and that chaos attack, and you might get the elemental/monster diversity feel,

but it wont be shadow magic.

There is no "shadow magic" worthy of Shades/Demishadow Magic type clone spells.

you could reflavor target/FX of wish and the above spells to "shadow magic" in theory. Stick with the 40/60% real and convert that to "casting level" equivalents or CR.

For example, say True Polymorph lets you turn a creature into a CR 17, or whatever level it happens to be. 20/40/80 percent of that might be around CR 3-4, 6-7, and 13-14.
while Spell Levels of 9 base would be 2nd, 4th, and 7th level spells respectively. But the trick of illusion/shadow is in the intimation of a thing, rather than a thing.

So you wouldn't want just a 9th level shadow spell duplicating a 7th level wizard/druid spell,

you would want your enemy to think you had used a 9th level wizard spell, but if they disbelieve, the DPS is more like a 7th level effect. So something like Meteor Swarm gets kicked down to Fireball damage. (40d6-->12d6) etc. And that would be so mechanically cumbersome that it would be easier to just write the Shadow Spells with their own % real mechanics and a "maybe/maybe not" Intelligence save, with a few key classes/races getting bonuses as per illusion resistance or light element.