Warlock's spell slots

[Skrum]

I'm in the process of making a backup character and I really like the Warlock, but I'm hung up on the spells slots - it looks like a pathetically tiny amount of spells!! With so few uses, I'm not sure how to best use them - how can they even be counted on, when it seems like they'll not be available when it matters?

Granted, I haven't actually played a Warlock. Maybe this is all in my head, and their multitude of other abilities does the legwork and spells are just like, a quirky trait. But I just have in my head a situation like "ok super important time, let's use one of my two spells I get."

"They save"

Well damn.

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

[Cybren]

Warlock pact slots refresh on a short, not long rest.

[Skrum]

Warlock pact slots refresh on a short, not long rest.

Does that really make all the difference? A short rest is still a rest. And 2 spells....that's just so few spells. It seems like such a gamble.

[JackPhoenix]

Does that really make all the difference? A short rest is still a rest. And 2 spells....that's just so few spells. It seems like such a gamble.

Unlike other spellcasters, you do have good option when you don't want (or can't) use slots. Eldritch Blast (with all the invocation that go with it) is closer to what martials are doing than to spellcasting. Even then, you're supposed to get 2 short rests per long rest, so it's 6 spells per day, about one big spell in every fight you'll get into, assuming you aren't using them for utility rather than combat.

Warlock is closer to an Eldritch Knight than it is to a wizard.

[Quietus]

Does that really make all the difference? A short rest is still a rest. And 2 spells....that's just so few spells. It seems like such a gamble.

It comes down to how your DM runs combats. If they run one or two super deadly combats per day, with no rest between, warlock is going to feel pretty anemic. If they run closer to 6+ combats with a couple of short rests, warlock will feel amazing.

The key with those warlock spells is to not take something that is going to target one enemy and feel bad if they save, unless that is a HUGE effect if they fail. You want to make use of their natural upcasting, you want to take AoE effects or spells like Hold Person that gain targets as you level up. One person might save, but if you can tag three, odds are someone will fail.

[Protolisk]

Warlocks can be built to barely need spell slots, similar to a Fighter. The primary way is focusing on Eldritch Blast via invocations, but you can also build a character focused on weapons.

The spell slots are typically used to supplement your way of fighting in this case.

Think of your spell slots like a Fighter's Action Surge: for this turn only, do something more than just shooting Eldritch Blast/swinging a weapon. This is common with spells that buff you instead of just doing a save or suck spell, such as Darkness/Shadow of Moil to make you hard to hit, or Hex to increase damage.

And for the majority of the earlier levels, you get 2 spell slots, while a fighter only gets 1 action surge. They both recharge on a short rest, however.

Now, in a game where there is only one major fight for long rest, both a Fighter and Warlock will have difficulties with this because they are so limited. But in games with a couple of short rests per long rest, you can have less fear of using your spell slots because you'll be able to rest and get more.

Overall, use them to complement your typical form of offense, instead of them being your main option.

[MoiMagnus]

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

You really really need to talk with your GM (and the other players).
A warlock that get 6-8 spell slots per day is much more fun to play than a warlock that get 2-4 spell slot per day (in which case I would probably advise multiclassing otherwise that might be a frustrating campaign for you).

If your GM hate short rests, the houserule "convert short rest ressources into long rest ressources by tripling them" (so 6 spell slots per day for the warlock) works quite well.

[TyGuy]

Does that really make all the difference? A short rest is still a rest. And 2 spells....that's just so few spells. It seems like such a gamble.
In the DMG there is a spell point variant that converts slots to a pool of points. Comparing the spell point equivalent of pact magic slots to spell casting slots reveals that pact magic has about 1/3 the spell points of spell casting. Therefore, without a short rest, it's pretty bad at 1/3 the spell points, and every short rest adds another 1/3 spell point equivalent of a caster. Making 2 short rests a day the break even point.

It has been my experience at tables that short rests are rarely done more than once a day using default rest rules. There are however rest variants that turn the 8hr night's sleep into a short rest and a long rest is multiple days. Warlocks flip to being very powerful in those situations when there are many more short rests between long rests.

Lastly, if you really wanted to play warlock in a game that rarely short rests, one magic item makes a huge difference. Ring of spell storing. Actually, it's so good for warlock, it's even amazing if there are short rests happening. The beauty is that the warlock can store lower level spells that are great but hard to justify blowing a high level slot on when pact magic gets >=1 level beyond the spell.

[Dork_Forge]

It's really not so bad, it looks like only two slots, but realistically you wouldn't be burning all of the slots on another caster between rests either, so it'll likely be 4-6 slots a day depending on your table.

Besides that you need to remember that you have invocations (a lot of which are simply at will castings of certain spells) and both a patron and pact to supply you with things to do and use. In practice in my experience Warlocks only feel as limited as you fear later in tier two, just because other casters end up with so many slots. Mechanically it isn't a problem really and you get used to it for timing when to use them.

[Tanarii]

Does that really make all the difference? A short rest is still a rest. And 2 spells....that's just so few spells. It seems like such a gamble.
Yes. Other spellcasting feature casters get roughly roughly 1 spell of each available spell slot level per short rest. Warlocks get 2, and they're both maximum spell slot level.

So at 10th level, spellcasting feature casters get 5 spells per short rest, one each from levels 1-5. Warlocks get 2, but they're both level 5. Having 2 of top spell level is great, but the lack of those lower level spell slots is why warlocks get Invocations as well.

That's the absolute worst point of comparison for warlocks by the way. Before ten the ratio of spells is better, and after ten warlocks get a third spell slot per short rest.

[msfnc]

Lastly, if you really wanted to play warlock in a game that rarely short rests, one magic item makes a huge difference. Ring of spell storing. Actually, it's so good for warlock, it's even amazing if there are short rests happening. The beauty is that the warlock can store lower level spells that are great but hard to justify blowing a high level slot on when pact magic gets >=1 level beyond the spell.

This ^ is very true. Other magic items like Rod of the Pact Keeper and Rod of Absorption will really up your game as well. I played a Celestial Tome Warlock with a ring of spell storing and a rod of absorption, and the dm had to politely ask me to quit being an unstoppable force of nature.

I’d also add that the inclusion of Tasha’s casting feats allows for some very powerful/versatile builds. Basically just extra (limited utility) spell slots. Start stacking them up, though...

[Eldariel]

I gave my Warlocks an extra spell slot on level 5 and Patron-based spell-like invocations (the Bane-class as at-will) for free and it worked out pretty well. You still didn't use them often but at least you could occasionally afford the action economy of using those amazing reactions on your list, instead of having to use all your slots on long duration Concentration-spells to enhance your basic functioning. As written, Warlock is pigeonholed (unfairly) so that it basically lacks half its spell list 'cause it can't use them until maybe on Tier 3. It's so far away from a real caster it's not even funny.

If I got to write it ground up, it either wouldn't have spell slots at all (move those cool spells to Invocations) so as to avoid the bookkeepnig and finnicky mechanics, or it would have more of those. Since it's easier to do, I just give it more of 'em. Current parties have two casty Warlocks (Fiend Pact of the Tome and Celestial Pact of the Chain) alongside Bard, Wizard and a couple of Druids and they aren't at all overshining their counterparts. On the contrary, they're still mostly Eldritch Blast bots but they get to be a bit more magical at least; at three short rests they're about matching the other casters so they mostly have trouble with really tough fights where they can't nova slots like real casters to raise their contribution level above the par. 90% of the time they're fine or even strong.

[Theodoxus]

If you're really worried about lack of spell slots, you could always build a coffeelock...

But having run and played Warlocks, in a party of all long rest dependent classes, it kinda sucked, as I was asking for a rest before anyone else really wanted to - but they understood my desire. In a party with more short rest dependent classes, we naturally gravitated our gameplay so that we all needed a short rest around the same time.

As a DM, I'm cognizant when I have a druid, monk or warlock in the party, and they're the most dependent to keep having 'fun'. Fighters enjoy Action Surge, but it isn't a must have every fight. Clerics enjoy Channel Divinity, but again, it's not usually a must have (and things like Life Clerics CD are only a must have if the DM has miscalculated the encounter, or the party has a really bad string of bad luck - but that doesn't typically happen more than once a long rest, so...)

My play advice is to basically 'keep a slot on hand at all times, if possible.' At first level, that doesn't matter, you only have 1 - feel free to burn it on your first combat, probably on Hex. But starting at 2nd level, use 1 slot and keep the second in reserve for when the fecal matter hits the fan. Or, if you know the party is going to rest asap after the encounter, so you'll get the slots back. - Communication is key here - know the needs of the rest of the party.

[Keravath]

Lastly, if you really wanted to play warlock in a game that rarely short rests, one magic item makes a huge difference. Ring of spell storing. Actually, it's so good for warlock, it's even amazing if there are short rests happening. The beauty is that the warlock can store lower level spells that are great but hard to justify blowing a high level slot on when pact magic gets >=1 level beyond the spell.

I actually disagree.

Ring of spell storing is one of the less usefull items for a pure warlock compared to other casters.

This is because you have to cast the spells into the ring. The space taken by the spell is the level of the spell slot used to cast it. This means that a 9th level warlock can only put one spell into a ring of spell storing of ANY level since they only have 5th level spell slots so whatever they cast will take up 5 spaces even if it is only a 1st level spell slot like shield.

However, if you know you have one spell you will always use then it does effectively give you one more spell slot for the day though the rod of the pact keeper does this better and increases your save DCs for spells you cast.

A 9th level warlock/1st level sorcerer multiclass only has 1st and 5th level slots - so they can either put in some 1st level spells OR put in one spell cast at 5th level. The 1 level sorcerer dip does allow the warlock (say hexblade) to put hex and shield among other things in a ring using the sorcerer spell slots but otherwise they only get one spell.

If you have a party with a range of useful spells and are willing to fill the ring for you then it can work but for a warlock on their own the ring has some problems.

[TyGuy]

This means that a 9th level warlock can only put one spell into a ring of spell storing of ANY level since they only have 5th level spell slots so whatever they cast will take up 5 spaces even if it is only a 1st level spell slot like shield.

That's a **** DM move. Especially if said DM didn't facilitate a game with sort rests. At that point I'd ask for a bone or a reroll, or just leave.

[Dork_Forge]

That's a **** DM move. Especially if said DM didn't facilitate a game with sort rests. At that point I'd ask for a bone or a reroll, or just leave.

That's not a bad DM, that's just a valid interpretation of the rules. If you didn't rule it that way, then the Warlock could load up the ring with upcast spells and end up with a disproportionately powerful item.

[Grey Watcher]

It comes down to how your DM runs combats. If they run one or two super deadly combats per day, with no rest between, warlock is going to feel pretty anemic. If they run closer to 6+ combats with a couple of short rests, warlock will feel amazing.

The key with those warlock spells is to not take something that is going to target one enemy and feel bad if they save, unless that is a HUGE eft fect if they fail. You want to make use of their natural upcasting, you want to take AoE effects or spells like Hold Person that gain targets as you level up. One person might save, but if you can tag three, odds are someone will fail.

For this reason I honestly think Warlocks are better off spending their Pact Magic spells on out-of-combat utility stuff and/or things you cast on yourself or friendlies (Misty Step, Fly, etc.). Multitarget offense is also a good solution, but there's an argument to be made to rely pretty strictly on Cantrips and and at-will invocations for offense (though I'm not sure off the top of my head how many at-will invocations are offensive).

[msfnc]

That's not a bad DM, that's just a valid interpretation of the rules. If you didn't rule it that way, then the Warlock could load up the ring with upcast spells and end up with a disproportionately powerful item.

I agree. Also, the PC has multiple RAW build paths to facilitate effective use of the item. The aforementioned Sorcerer/Wizard/anycaster dip for level 1 slots, racial casting features/Magic Initiate/Fey- or Shadow- touched/other casting feats, to name a few. Rod of Absorption paired with Ring of Spell Storing can be a borderline-broken combo as well.

[TyGuy]

That's not a bad DM, that's just a valid interpretation of the rules. If you didn't rule it that way, then the Warlock could load up the ring with upcast spells and end up with a disproportionately powerful item.

If an upcast level 5 shield took up 1 slot but had the counter spell level of 5 then it would be too strong. The obvious RAF ruling is to allow for spells without upcast effects like shield and misty step to store at their lowest level and cast at their lowest level while maintaining that spells with scaling like AoA store at their highest level.

[Dork_Forge]

If an upcast level 5 shield took up 1 slot but had the counter spell level of 5 then it would be too strong. The obvious RAF ruling is to allow for spells without upcast effects like shield and misty step to store at their lowest level and cast at their lowest level while maintaining that spells with scaling like AoA store at their highest level.

RAF sure, but most definitely rules inconsistent, you can't really blame a DM for ruling it that way.

Personally I'd just give the Warlock a Rod of the Pact keeper or Pearl of Power or something.

[DarknessEternal]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3.

[Quietus]

For this reason I honestly think Warlocks are better off spending their Pact Magic spells on out-of-combat utility stuff and/or things you cast on yourself or friendlies (Misty Step, Fly, etc.). Multitarget offense is also a good solution, but there's an argument to be made to rely pretty strictly on Cantrips and and at-will invocations for offense (though I'm not sure off the top of my head how many at-will invocations are offensive).

That's a totally valid way to build it, and I wouldn't begrudge someone that. I might suggest having one or two combat-relevant spells in there, but a warlock, particularly pact of the tome, can be extremely effective as a problem-solver going this route.

[JNAProductions]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3.

That's a pretty strong stance to take. And one that I find to be completely inaccurate.

[Tanarii]

For this reason I honestly think Warlocks are better off spending their Pact Magic spells on out-of-combat utility stuff and/or things you cast on yourself or friendlies (Misty Step, Fly, etc.).
Non-combat encounters should use resources and "trigger" short rests too. But it's definitely valid to plan to have slot use options for them.

I've seen good non-combat use by Tier 2 warlocks of Charm Person, Invisibility, Fly, all of which are common for 'locks to hold onto because they scale, and they have more spells known than they can possibly cast at once. That encourages them to spread their spells out over multiple use-case scenarios.

Of course, if your DM doesn't think of out of combat as "encounters" and you can easily take your short rest breaks any time, or you have longer than usual adventuring days with more than 2 short rests, the ability to keep going all day long are make the Warlock really strong. Especially in the first case, even non-scalable spells (e.g. Suggestion) are worth holding onto as a spell known.

[Dork_Forge]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3.

I'm guessing the archer comment is regarding EB? In which case... How is EB a weak archer when loaded up with invocations?

How are invocations not a class feature that makes reduced slot casting viable?

[Wraith]

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

With the possible exception of the Druid, for whom you need to do your homework for both spell lists and a list of beastforms and their stats, Warlock probably require the most forward thinking of any spellcaster class. This is because your number one priority in everything you do is Being Efficient.

The example you give above - you cast a spell, the enemy saves, you're done until after the fight - is an example of a Warlock who unfortunately tried to be a Sorcerer; just pick an AoE damage spell, drop it twice, and hope everything has stopped moving when you're done. It rarely works, if ever.

The way to play a Warlock means you need to carefully pick your spells and make sure you get the most use out of them all the time, every time. That means taking long duration spells that cover a large area, and being really good at concentrating on them so that they stay around for as long as possible. You also prepare cantrips that can control the battlefield in order to move enemies into and around your hazardous concentration spell, 'double dipping' to cause damage in the first instance and also shift them into position where they'll take more damage next turn, too.

It requires a lot of planning, and the willingness to find a 'trick' and use it over and over again because you seldom have opportunity to learn a new 'trick'. It also means picking up a few abilities that you can use out of a fight in order to support the party in niche but always useful ways and trying not to get offended if it doesn't come up very often, and using your imagination to really push your non-combat cantrips to the limit of what they're meant to do because you don't have the Clerics' huge spell list to pick from, or the Wizards' ability to scribe new spells on a whim when you need them.
You're a magical Survivalist, running on your wits and being prepared to do terrible things in order to outsmart problems that other classes would just throw a few spell slots at and be done with. You learn what is possibly the greatest and most difficult thing that there is to know about being a magic user - how to do things without using magic.

And if it wasn't absolutely clear, I *love* playing a Warlock. It takes imagination and occasionally having to sit down and come to terms with the fact that you're going to be magically overshadowed by the other spellcasting classes in a straight-up duel, but when you pull it off and your carefully planned combination of spells, cantrips and Invocations come together it's immensely satisfying and can create some stunning in-game moments.... Because you've planned ahead for them, and no one else even saw it coming.

The only drawback that I'll repeat from above is what Quietus said above; if your DM or your party don't like taking a lot of short rests, you will feel a little bit left out. This happens to me occasionally - I'm playing a Tome Warlock in a party that includes a Druid, Necromancer, Cleric and a couple of Paladin who like to keep medium-duration spells and abilities running as long as possible for re-casting, and they don't often like to stop for cat-naps unless they have to. It means that I either spend a lot of down-time looking for Pearls of Power, or Rings of Spell Storing, or otherwise I have to be very economic with spells and rely more heavily on my 'tricks'.

Ask your GM and/or party first if this will be a problem for them. If they're not prepared to take little breaks regularly, and you're concerned that you're going to be stuck just pinging Eldritch Blasts every turn or are worried that you're either too new or unfamiliar with the game to really exploit your resources.... Maybe don't play Warlock.
Or at least play Hexblade/Pact of the Blade and be a pseudo-Paladin-like-character, because another goon with a sword and shield is never unwelcome even when they're not reigning holy fire down from above. :smallsmile:

[Frogreaver]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3.

I strongly disagree with that. A Warlock that unloads a control spell (Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Hold Monster on turn 1) and then uses EB with invocations the rest of the encounter will be very powerful.

[Pex]

It comes down to how your DM runs combats. If they run one or two super deadly combats per day, with no rest between, warlock is going to feel pretty anemic. If they run closer to 6+ combats with a couple of short rests, warlock will feel amazing.

The key with those warlock spells is to not take something that is going to target one enemy and feel bad if they save, unless that is a HUGE effect if they fail. You want to make use of their natural upcasting, you want to take AoE effects or spells like Hold Person that gain targets as you level up. One person might save, but if you can tag three, odds are someone will fail.

That's why it's very important to monitor your Pact, Patron, and Invocations. Choose the ones you will have fun playing. If you expect to be casting Eldritch Blast a lot, Repelling Blast is attractive for the strategic value and help against boredom. If your game has a lot of roleplaying social encounters, Mask of Many Faces gains value. If you feel the need to be casting spells a lot, Tome Pact gives you Rituals, and Misty Visions gives you at will Silent Image. Fey Great Old One Patron gives you limited Telepathy for undetectable communication. Genie Patron gives you your own bag of holding. Players joke about wanting to transport someone secretly via bag of holding or portable hole, but the need to breathe makes it impossible. With Genie Patron you can do that no problem at 10th level.

Spells matter too, but the point is by focusing on the fun of Warlock as a whole on those game days where it's only one fight you won't feel gimped.

[Emongnome777]

The only drawback that I'll repeat from above is what Quietus said above; if your DM or your party don't like taking a lot of short rests, you will feel a little bit left out. This happens to me occasionally - I'm playing a Tome Warlock in a party that includes a Druid, Necromancer, Cleric and a couple of Paladin who like to keep medium-duration spells and abilities running as long as possible for re-casting, and they don't often like to stop for cat-naps unless they have to. It means that I either spend a lot of down-time looking for Pearls of Power, or Rings of Spell Storing, or otherwise I have to be very economic with spells and rely more heavily on my 'tricks'.

I get the point about the spell durations. We've done that a time or two with those 10-min duration spells. But all of those classes except Necromancer have short rest resources (Druid - wildshape, Cleric & Paladins - channel divinity). It would seem once those spells drop, they would be craving short rests, especially if you use Tasha's variant where you can spend CDs (1 to 3 per LR I think) to recover spell slots.

I'm not disagreeing here, just wondering if you could leverage this into more rests.

[Theodoxus]

Non-combat encounters should use resources and "trigger" short rests too. But it's definitely valid to plan to have slot use options for them.

I've seen good non-combat use by Tier 2 warlocks of Charm Person, Invisibility, Fly, all of which are common for 'locks to hold onto because they scale, and they have more spells known than they can possibly cast at once. That encourages them to spread their spells out over multiple use-case scenarios.

Of course, if your DM doesn't think of out of combat as "encounters" and you can easily take your short rest breaks any time, or you have longer than usual adventuring days with more than 2 short rests, the ability to keep going all day long are make the Warlock really strong. Especially in the first case, even non-scalable spells (e.g. Suggestion) are worth holding onto as a spell known.

Huh, I say basically this and you poo-poo it. Weird.

[LudicSavant]

I'm in the process of making a backup character and I really like the Warlock, but I'm hung up on the spells slots - it looks like a pathetically tiny amount of spells!! With so few uses, I'm not sure how to best use them - how can they even be counted on, when it seems like they'll not be available when it matters?

Granted, I haven't actually played a Warlock. Maybe this is all in my head, and their multitude of other abilities does the legwork and spells are just like, a quirky trait. But I just have in my head a situation like "ok super important time, let's use one of my two spells I get."

"They save"

Well damn.

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

Warlocks do quite well for themselves when executed properly.

A well-built Warlock isn't just about their spell slots -- they use Invocations and potent subclass features to flesh out their repertoire of actions.

Also, those two spell slots are a little more like 6 given that the game expects you to have an average of 2 short rests a day. There are also things like the "1 hour ritual" -- for instance you can cast Hex with a duration of 24 hours, but refresh the slot in 1 hour. Also good in non-combat contexts where time is not particularly tight... for the same reason that true Rituals are.

[MaxWilson]

Higher level warlocks make excellent (and thematic) demon summoners, and sometimes elemental summoners, in addition to being strong and versatile archers.

Does the party have a tough foe ahead of them? Summon a Barlgura (or an elemental) to tank, and then blast away with Agonizing Repelling Etc.

Does the party have a rubble blockage clogging the tunnel ahead of them? Summon a Dybbuk and have it Dimension Door the PCs through the rubble, one at a time. (Use multiple Dybbuks if necessary, for a large party.)

Warlock slots are good for noncombat uses where you can sort of choose your own pacing, e.g. Suggestion, Fly, Invisibility, Cure Wounds, as opposed to combat where you can't take a rest break in the middle of a fight.

Also, when the party is bored and looking for trouble, you can always spend a few hours summoning up demons like Tanarukks to practice combat on. At two slots an hour and 1800ish XP per slot, the party can gain 36,000 XP in just ten hours of demon killing practice. Wizards can do it too but not as freely, since they take 24 hours to regain slots.

[Frogreaver]

That's why it's very important to monitor your Pact, Patron, and Invocations. Choose the ones you will have fun playing. If you expect to be casting Eldrich Blast a lot, Repelling Blast is attractive for the strategic value and help against boredom. If your game has a lot of roleplaying social encounters, Mask of Many Faces gains value. If you feel the need to be casting spells a lot, Tome Pact gives you Rituals, and Misty Visions gives you at will Silent Image. Fey Patron gives you limited Telepathy for undetectable communication. Genie Patron gives you your own bag of holding. Players joke about wanting to transport someone secretly via bag of holding or portable hole, but the need to breathe makes it impossible. With Genie Patron you can do that no problem at 10th level.

Spells matter too, but the point is by focusing on the fun of Warlock as a whole on those game days where it's only one fight you won't feel gimped.

While Warlocks tend to be slightly underpowered compared to other full casters in a single encounter day, it's not like they are weak in those situations.

The simple fact is that there are so few "good" non-concentration spells that most of the non-defensive ones we settle for are little better than an EB with invocations. There are a few niche ones such as counterspell and dispel magic that can really make a difference when in a battle where they can matter. The only general purpose wizard/sorcerer non-concentration spell I can think of worth mentioning in this comparison is blindness/deafness and spamming it in a scaled up slot is probably better than EB + Invocations - and it just so happens to be a spell that would work great for a warlock in a one encounter day if he had access to it.

To summarize, warlocks aren't that far behind wizards/sorcerers for single encounter days.

That said I think they are certain wizard subclasses that just trounce them for single encounter days, evoker wizards being the most notable as spamming fireball on all the turns after 1 and not worrying about hitting the party is really strong in almost any encounter (and if the MM combo's work in your games then that as well).

Hexblade makes for probably the best caster warlock. Medium Armor and Shields along with an extra spell like ability for damage on EB.

[P. G. Macer]

That's why it's very important to monitor your Pact, Patron, and Invocations. Choose the ones you will have fun playing. If you expect to be casting Eldrich Blast a lot, Repelling Blast is attractive for the strategic value and help against boredom. If your game has a lot of roleplaying social encounters, Mask of Many Faces gains value. If you feel the need to be casting spells a lot, Tome Pact gives you Rituals, and Misty Visions gives you at will Silent Image. Fey Patron gives you limited Telepathy for undetectable communication. Genie Patron gives you your own bag of holding. Players joke about wanting to transport someone secretly via bag of holding or portable hole, but the need to breathe makes it impossible. With Genie Patron you can do that no problem at 10th level.

Spells matter too, but the point is by focusing on the fun of Warlock as a whole on those game days where it's only one fight you won't feel gimped.

Nitpick: It’s the Great Old One patron that gets the limited telepathy, not the Archfey.

[Pex]

Higher level warlocks make excellent (and thematic) demon summoners, and sometimes elemental summoners, in addition to being strong and versatile archers.

Does the party have a tough foe ahead of them? Summon a Barlgura (or an elemental) to tank, and then blast away with Agonizing Repelling Etc.

Does the party have a rubble blockage clogging the tunnel ahead of them? Summon a Dybbuk and have it Dimension Door the PCs through the rubble, one at a time. (Use multiple Dybbuks if necessary, for a large party.)

Warlock slots are good for noncombat uses where you can sort of choose your own pacing, e.g. Suggestion, Fly, Invisibility, Cure Wounds, as opposed to combat where you can't take a rest break in the middle of a fight.

Also, when the party is bored and looking for trouble, you can always spend a few hours summoning up demons like Tanarukks to practice combat on. At two slots an hour and 1800ish XP per slot, the party can gain 36,000 XP in just ten hours of demon killing practice. Wizards can do it too but not as freely, since they take 24 hours to regain slots.

Advice like this, including Animate Dead and Planar Binding, always bugs me for any spellcaster. It's not a casual thing to summon a demon just because the day ends in a y. Other party members may object on principle. NPCs won't warmly greet someone who casually summons demons every day. There are consequences to using these spells that falls beyond the theoretical optimization.


Nitpick: It’s the Great Old One patron that gets the limited telepathy, not the Archfey.

Correction noted.

[Wraith]

I get the point about the spell durations. We've done that a time or two with those 10-min duration spells. But all of those classes except Necromancer have short rest resources (Druid - wildshape, Cleric & Paladins - channel divinity). It would seem once those spells drop, they would be craving short rests, especially if you use Tasha's variant where you can spend CDs (1 to 3 per LR I think) to recover spell slots.

You are absolutely correct and it is something that I have suggested, however it just happens to be one of "Those" parties that prefer to keep trucking, get the most out of their active abilities, and then Long Rest to get back everything all at once. Particularly both Paladin, who are hyper-focused on their Smites, and the Cleric who is the main healer for a particularly big party and tends to set the pace for our rests.

I can hardly blame them - they're only doing what I'm doing as squeezing every drop of use out of abilities or spell durations is what Warlocks are all about, after all. I choose to take it as a compliment; I've gotten so good at getting the most out of my cantrips and Invocations that they think I don't *need* my spell slots, which is pretty much the ideal situation that I wanted in the first place. :smallsmile:

It doesn't suit every party of course, which is why I pointed it out. If you want to play a Warlock, find out what sort of pace your party expects and prepare (there's that word again! :smalltongue: ) accordingly, or otherwise go multiclass/Pact of the Blade to give you something to do between rests.

[diplomancer]

You are absolutely correct and it is something that I have suggested, however it just happens to be one of "Those" parties that prefer to keep trucking, get the most out of their active abilities, and then Long Rest to get back everything all at once. Particularly both Paladin, who are hyper-focused on their Smites, and the Cleric who is the main healer for a particularly big party and tends to set the pace for our rests.

I can hardly blame them - they're only doing what I'm doing as squeezing every drop of use out of abilities or spell durations is what Warlocks are all about, after all. I choose to take it as a compliment; I've gotten so good at getting the most out of my cantrips and Invocations that they think I don't *need* my spell slots, which is pretty much the ideal situation that I wanted in the first place. :smallsmile:

It doesn't suit every party of course, which is why I pointed it out. If you want to play a Warlock, find out what sort of pace your party expects and prepare (there's that word again! :smalltongue: ) accordingly, or otherwise go multiclass/Pact of the Blade to give you something to do between rests.

Don't blame the PCs who expend LR resources at a very fast pace and then want long rests all the time; blame the DMs who allow it; after all, if DMs DO allow it, it makes no in-world sense not to take advantage of it.
Yes, with a DM like this, it's harder to have fun playing a Warlock- or a Monk, or a Fighter, or, worst of all, a Rogue.

Edit: I know you, particularly, are not blaming anyone, and that you are having fun. I'm just pointing out that this is not a Warlock issue, or a "party mismatch" issue. It's strictly a DM issue; this DM chosen style of play greatly favours LR classes over SR and resourceless classes. The party seems to enjoy it, and even you, playing the Warlock, is ok with it, so more power to him. But if getting LRs wasn't that easy, the smite-happy Paladins, in particular, would quickly learn to pace themselves for a longer adventuring day.

[Tanarii]

Keeping on trucking with LR casters is counter productive. Spell resources need to be used for healing, because they weren't using HD to heal.

Unless they've got 100 healing potions each because no one is paying attention to container capacity and they're hero-hobos who only want to spend money on gear & upgrades. :smallamused:

[Pex]

You are absolutely correct and it is something that I have suggested, however it just happens to be one of "Those" parties that prefer to keep trucking, get the most out of their active abilities, and then Long Rest to get back everything all at once. Particularly both Paladin, who are hyper-focused on their Smites, and the Cleric who is the main healer for a particularly big party and tends to set the pace for our rests.

I can hardly blame them - they're only doing what I'm doing as squeezing every drop of use out of abilities or spell durations is what Warlocks are all about, after all. I choose to take it as a compliment; I've gotten so good at getting the most out of my cantrips and Invocations that they think I don't *need* my spell slots, which is pretty much the ideal situation that I wanted in the first place. :smallsmile:

It doesn't suit every party of course, which is why I pointed it out. If you want to play a Warlock, find out what sort of pace your party expects and prepare (there's that word again! :smalltongue: ) accordingly, or otherwise go multiclass/Pact of the Blade to give you something to do between rests.

Unless you're doing continuous dungeon crawls, talk to your DM about narrative short rests. When you finish a fight and "three hours later you arrive in town" you had a short rest in those three hours. A short rest is not stay in one place doing absolutely nothing.

[Dork_Forge]

Unless you're doing continuous dungeon crawls, talk to your DM about narrative short rests. When you finish a fight and "three hours later you arrive in town" you had a short rest in those three hours. A short rest is not stay in one place doing absolutely nothing.

Whilst a short rest is not doing absolutely nothing, it most certainly isn't travel:


A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

[MoiMagnus]

Whilst a short rest is not doing absolutely nothing, it most certainly isn't travel:

Travel on boat or more generally as a passenger of a vehicle, I think that definitely works. On a horseback (outside of any stressful situation, obviously), that's more debatable.

As for walking, what is quite reasonable is to ask the GM to include a short rest in each and every long travel, so the "3 hour latter" includes by default a short rest where peoples take a break, eat a meal, etc.

[Dork_Forge]

Travel on boat or more generally as a passenger of a vehicle, I think that definitely works. On a horseback (outside of any stressful situation, obviously), that's more debatable.

As for walking, what is quite reasonable is to ask the GM to include a short rest in each and every long travel, so the "3 hour latter" includes by default a short rest where peoples take a break, eat a meal, etc.

Travel as a passanger of a vehicle, where that travel is smooth and uneventful is perfectly reasonable, if the PC needs to be involved in the travel (rigging sails, steering cart etc.) then they aren't resting. There's a reason why the PHB makes a distinction between resting and travel.

Asking the DM to just include it is reasonable, assuming there's a suitable resting spot en route and the travel time is increased by the resting time.

[Doug Lampert]

Travel as a passanger of a vehicle, where that travel is smooth and uneventful is perfectly reasonable, if the PC needs to be involved in the travel (rigging sails, steering cart etc.) then they aren't resting. There's a reason why the PHB makes a distinction between resting and travel.

Asking the DM to just include it is reasonable, assuming there's a suitable resting spot en route and the travel time is increased by the resting time.

Very few historical vehicles except large ships were all that smooth. But someone accustomed to riding can sleep on a horse or in a wagon, so I'd say they can rest under those circumstances.

And a meal break isn't necessarily EXTRA time out, it can easily be something you're doing anyway as part of traveling.

Except in a dungeon, short resting shouldn't be all that hard.

[Dork_Forge]

Very few historical vehicles except large ships were all that smooth. But someone accustomed to riding can sleep on a horse or in a wagon, so I'd say they can rest under those circumstances.

And a meal break isn't necessarily EXTRA time out, it can easily be something you're doing anyway as part of traveling.

Except in a dungeon, short resting shouldn't be all that hard.

It's not necessarily about being difficult, it's the cost of time, if you're in a game where an hour here and there makes no difference then it doesn't matter. I like to run my games where the players can reasonably rest, but adding to travel time or not finishing what they were up to can matter, it's a living world not a videogame they can hit pause on.

On the resting whilst traveling part, imo if you're actively travelling, you aren't resting. Keeping alert of your surroundings (remember D&D isn't our world, it's incredibly dangerous in a variety of ways) and actually doing the travel part (keeping horses moving in the right direction in unfamiliar territory, hiking which I think of more commonly in regards to a lot of short range travel) aren't resting.

Table differences, but imo the RAW doesn't support short resting during travel, it treats travel as a distinct phase of play, which makes sense since some resources and abilties can be used to enhance travel.

[Zalabim]

A day of travel by the book is only 8 hours of traveling, 8 hours to qualify for a long rest, and 8 hours of something that doesn't qualify as traveling so it isn't a forced march.

[Kane0]

I'm in the process of making a backup character and I really like the Warlock, but I'm hung up on the spells slots - it looks like a pathetically tiny amount of spells!! With so few uses, I'm not sure how to best use them - how can they even be counted on, when it seems like they'll not be available when it matters?

Granted, I haven't actually played a Warlock. Maybe this is all in my head, and their multitude of other abilities does the legwork and spells are just like, a quirky trait. But I just have in my head a situation like "ok super important time, let's use one of my two spells I get."

"They save"

Well damn.

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

- Warlocks have above average capabilities for a caster when it comes to features that aren't spell slots, specifically invocations which give you options and boost your cantrip
- Your slots auto-scaling feature really helps you get the most out of some spells, like Hold Person instead of Shield.
- Your slots are recovered on a short rest which are supposed to be about 3x more common than long rests, however this is DM dependent
- There are some great warlock spells that don't rely on attack rolls or saves, like Armor of Agathys, Hex and Summon X. Depending on your choice of patron you can also select spells that hit an AoE to increase your chances of snagging someone, like Fireball with a Fiend Patron.
- Rod of the Pact Keeper is a relatively common magic item (at least in campaign books) that is a little unique among caster items in that it both gives you an extra slot per long rest and increases your attack rolls and save DC. They're pretty potent for their rarity.

[MaxWilson]

Advice like this, including Animate Dead and Planar Binding, always bugs me for any spellcaster. It's not a casual thing to summon a demon just because the day ends in a y. Other party members may object on principle. NPCs won't warmly greet someone who casually summons demons every day. There are consequences to using these spells that falls beyond the theoretical optimization.

Summoning demons for the express purpose of killing them? There's nothing theoretical about the need for practice--the only question here is whether you'd rather practice your killing skills on demons, one at a time under controlled circumstances, or on innocent creatures like dinosaurs, or exclusively in live fire exercises.

There's a huge difference between "summoning demons in order to immediately slay them" and "animating skeletons into murderbots-on-a-leash and keeping them on retainer until needed." I would expect NPCs to see that, and I would insist to even the most rigidly lawful of the lawful good popes that demon-slaying practice is good for everyone, especially those who might need us to slay demons for real at some point.

And if they still wouldn't buy that and it was causing more trouble than it was worth, I would switch*** to summoning up water elementals for the party to fight instead.

***If I were a House Lyrandar/Mark of Storms half-elf warlock, one of my two favorite races for warlocks.

My other favorite race for warlocks is currently Dreamlands cats (sometimes-sapient housecats), from Sandy Peterson's Cthulhu For 5E, and a cat can't summon elementals but also doesn't care about social disapproval so would just keep going with the demons.

[ad_hoc]

Think of it this way - Warlocks get more spell power in fewer actions.

On average they get to have 1 big encounter defining spell per encounter.

Compare that to other spellcasters who need multiple rounds casting lower level spells to have a similar impact.

It is stronger to shut enemies down early than to attack them over time.

Warlocks don't have a lot of utility with their spells but they are combat powerhouses with them.

It is a big mistake to waste their slots on things like Hex. I also think it is important to spend Invocations on things that will improve their out of combat abilities to compensate for fewer slots.

[kbob]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3.

I agree with the sentiment that they are terrible spellcasters IFF you see them as a traditional arcane full caster. They will not compete with wizard or sorcerer (even with short rest mechanic) if you try to play them as such. If that is what you want out of them I think you will be disappointed as you will run out of slots real quick and be forced to EB from there on out until you rest again. This is magnified if your DM doesn’t give many short rests as others have pointed out. Having to follow a formula for the number of encounters is a common criticism (that you may or may not agree with) in the 5e mechanics but that’s another topic altogether.
This is not to say that the warlock is bad. You just have to play him unconventionally as compared to other arcanists. IMO no other class is dictated by their subclass to which role they play in the party than warlock (W). The W strength is in how you build him. If you want a customizable class, look no further. W is the most customizable class in the game with the possible exception of the artificer. You get a subclass that changes your role immensely. You get a pact feature which is almost a mini, secondary subclass. And you get invocations which can be amazing. You can be quite effective as any role in the game depending on how you build around all of these. I mean literally. They can be extremely fun to play and frustrating for a DM if you build them right. My favorite character that I have in 5e is a W. He is one of if not the most powerful char in our group and I play with some minmaxers (self included).
Then again, if built poorly, they can and probably will be one the most boring classes for you to play.
DM. “What do you do?”
H. “I cast EB I guess. Again. Actually, I’m gonna go play PlayStation now. You can just role for my EB each round I guess and let me know when it’s all over.”
Basically, don’t try to be the wizard or
Sorcerer. You’re not. Find a role that you want to play or subclass you like. If you like Hexblade, you’re now arguably the best gish (melee build that uses magic) in the game. If you wanna be a healer/defensive kind of role, check out the celestial. Do you wanna do solid damage with some cool thematic abilities? Maybe the fiend. From there match a pact that you think best augments that build and choose invocations to better serve that or that can give you spells/effects that don’t use spell slots. Though you should almost always get agonizing blast. I say almost as I’m sure someone on here may have some crazy build that doesn’t use it but that would certainly be an exception. Hope this helps.

[Wraith]

Unless you're doing continuous dungeon crawls, talk to your DM about narrative short rests. When you finish a fight and "three hours later you arrive in town" you had a short rest in those three hours. A short rest is not stay in one place doing absolutely nothing.


Asking the DM to just include it is reasonable, assuming there's a suitable resting spot en route and the travel time is increased by the resting time.

At my table, this is exactly how it works; The key word is 'relaxation'. If we're travelling in a cart or coach and someone else takes watch while I sprawl out for a power-nap then that's absolutely fine as a short rest, but if we're walking somewhere or having to pay attention while e.g. riding a horse, the act of having to concentrate and be alert means it's not a rest. I have been known to purchase a rickshaw and have it be pulled by my (ritual'd) Phantom Steed for this express purpose - the only downside is that the party's Artificer hates it because she didn't think of it first :smalltongue:

It's flexible - while my GM tends to err towards 'realism' for these sorts of things, provided I can give it decent justification he's usually willing to negotiate. That's really the key point that an aspiring Warlock should take away from my account - ask these sorts of questions before you start, because if the answer isn't what you were hoping for then you're going to need to make adjustments to your skills, spells, Invocations and so on in order to make up for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.

Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.

Never be a Warlock past level 3. My 8th level Celestial Tome Lock is on the phone: she's delighted to disagree with you ... :smallcool:

Warlock probably require the most forward thinking of any spellcaster class. This is because your number one priority in everything you do is Being Efficient. Amen. Upcasting fly has turned out handy in a variety of situations.


And if it wasn't absolutely clear, I *love* playing a Warlock. Me also.

The only drawback that I'll repeat from above is what Quietus said above; if your DM or your party don't like taking a lot of short rests, you will feel a little bit left out. I have a wand of web, which makes up for a lot, and just recently found a rod of the pact keeper. I am good to go.


Don't blame the PCs who expend LR resources at a very fast pace and then want long rests all the time; blame the DMs who allow it; after all, if DMs DO allow it, it makes no in-world sense not to take advantage of it. My players frequently blow their resources and then try to plan for a long rest, and I don't cater to that. They get to learn the risks of being out of ammo, so to speak. Our Fighter and our Monk, somehow, never kvetch. :smallbiggrin:

[Pex]

Summoning demons for the express purpose of killing them? There's nothing theoretical about the need for practice--the only question here is whether you'd rather practice your killing skills on demons, one at a time under controlled circumstances, or on innocent creatures like dinosaurs, or exclusively in live fire exercises.

There's a huge difference between "summoning demons in order to immediately slay them" and "animating skeletons into murderbots-on-a-leash and keeping them on retainer until needed." I would expect NPCs to see that, and I would insist to even the most rigidly lawful of the lawful good popes that demon-slaying practice is good for everyone, especially those who might need us to slay demons for real at some point.

And if they still wouldn't buy that and it was causing more trouble than it was worth, I would switch*** to summoning up water elementals for the party to fight instead.

***If I were a House Lyrandar/Mark of Storms half-elf warlock, one of my two favorite races for warlocks.

My other favorite race for warlocks is currently Dreamlands cats (sometimes-sapient housecats), from Sandy Peterson's Cthulhu For 5E, and a cat can't summon elementals but also doesn't care about social disapproval so would just keep going with the demons.

Summoning creatures just so your friends can slaughter them is its own problem. It also means nothing in terms of efficient use of spells while adventuring.

[diplomancer]

My players frequently blow their resources and then try to plan for a long rest, and I don't cater to that. They get to learn the risks of being out of ammo, so to speak. Our Fighter and our Monk, somehow, never kvetch. :smallbiggrin:

Yep; that's how you train your players.

[Dork_Forge]

My players frequently blow their resources and then try to plan for a long rest, and I don't cater to that. They get to learn the risks of being out of ammo, so to speak. Our Fighter and our Monk, somehow, never kvetch. :smallbiggrin:

I don't put my players through the ringer of 6-8 encounters per LR often, it feels like a slog a lot of the time for the player groups I have, I tend to lean more into harder encounters that force their hands.

I did have one of my groups start leaning into 5 minute resting days, camping at the boundary of the necromancers land after just having defeated the gate keepers. One interupted long rest with a small army of undead and they now try and balance their resources a little better...

My other group is much more heavily RP focused, but every now and them I throw them through the ringer. They're currently in a dungeon that's probably... 4-5xdeadly+ and the Barbarian is nervously looking at his single remaining rage :smallbiggrin:

[diplomancer]

I don't put my players through the ringer of 6-8 encounters per LR often, it feels like a slog a lot of the time for the player groups I have, I tend to lean more into harder encounters that force their hands.

I did have one of my groups start leaning into 5 minute resting days, camping at the boundary of the necromancers land after just having defeated the gate keepers. One interupted long rest with a small army of undead and they now try and balance their resources a little better...

My other group is much more heavily RP focused, but every now and them I throw them through the ringer. They're currently in a dungeon that's probably... 4-5xdeadly+ and the Barbarian is nervously looking at his single remaining rage :smallbiggrin:

Though the Rogue still gets a bit shortchanged, I'd imagine that having as few as even 3 fights per LR with a SR in between them might be enough to keep the classes mostly balanced (Barbarians being the main beneficiary at early levels, and getting a bit shortchanged later on, but they are not considered a top class anyway, so that'a not too bad), though I haven't run the numbers to verify this claim.

[Doug Lampert]

A day of travel by the book is only 8 hours of traveling, 8 hours to qualify for a long rest, and 8 hours of something that doesn't qualify as traveling so it isn't a forced march.

Yep, a meal break isn't some exotic thing that slows you down. It is part of the EXPECTED rate of travel.

~12 hours of night, three four hour watches and people sleep two out of the three watches.
~12 hours of light, that's 8 hours of travel, and three one hour breaks for meals and rest (one at the start of the day, one in the middle, and one at the end), and an hour left for chores related to setting and breaking camp.

I'm not seeing where a rest during travel slows you down. You're taking that lunch break anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't put my players through the ringer of 6-8 encounters per LR often, it feels like a slog a lot of the time for the player groups I have, I tend to lean more into harder encounters that force their hands. I don't need 6-8 encounters to make them work, :smallcool: but they are also kinda sloppy a lot of the time. A few of them have wised up ...

[Houster]

I'm in the process of making a backup character and I really like the Warlock, but I'm hung up on the spells slots - it looks like a pathetically tiny amount of spells!! With so few uses, I'm not sure how to best use them - how can they even be counted on, when it seems like they'll not be available when it matters?

Granted, I haven't actually played a Warlock. Maybe this is all in my head, and their multitude of other abilities does the legwork and spells are just like, a quirky trait. But I just have in my head a situation like "ok super important time, let's use one of my two spells I get."

"They save"

Well damn.

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

Because of this I never played warlock, but i'm looking into it right now. As few mentioned here, the spells are aces in your sleeve. To make the warlock, look for your defining features. For example-patrons- healing light for the celestial, Great old one for the telepathy, genie for the lamp and flying and so on.
I think hexblades are in a problem because they cant really defend themselves in melee without slots. They would have to multiclass, which many do(making powerhouses). Many people just make hexblades as blasters with shields, which they do well. That idea is more akin to an archer.
fiend+fey does not really get defining features that are not spells

Invocations are great for defining features too-
Book of rituals, mask of many faces, misty visions, repelling blast(push master), and many of the high level ones.

I think you have to base your warlock around a few at will or nearly at will abilities, and then pick spells that are aces in niche situations(which make them even more aces). Such as fly, invisibilty, detect thoughts, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, major image and so on.
As mentioned here- spells like shield and hex are a waste to cast(but not a waste to know) in my opinion(unless you multiclass).

I'm really scratching my head as well as to what to pick out of those, I'll be happy to hear what you chose, once you do.

[igor140]

Obviously a lot of great responses on this thread, but here's my two cents:

Warlock is the single most versatile class in DnD (unless you count mystic, but most people don't). They really fit the bill of "jack of all trades, master of none". They get some of the best spells in the game (Hunger of Hadar!), but can't cast very often. They can be competent melee combatants, but will never have the tankiness of a paladin or fighter.

Many people disregard warlocks because they perceive this to be a weakness; I see it a strength. Warlock is my favorite class because they can be built to do be able to adapt to just about anything.

The support-summoner is a very powerful option. Hexblade is an amazing option. Eldritch Blast turret is a viable but somewhat boring option.

My only caution is that warlocks really drop off after level 12. They can be made to work, but that's a really good place to multiclass if you're open to that. You've gotten almost all your invocations, three out of four spell slots, and most of the level 14 subclass features are actively bad.

Your goal is to fight smarter, not harder. A hexblade will have a very difficult time going toe-to-toe with a fighter... but throw in some levels of sorcerer, and now you have enough spell slots to use all those amazing spells like shield, fly, hunger of hadar, etc... and still enough spell slots for eldritch smite. You still won't be able to trade blows with the fighter, but you won't have to.

[kbob]

I think hexblades are in a problem because they cant really defend themselves in melee without slots. They would have to multiclass, which many do(making powerhouses). Many people just make hexblades as blasters with shields, which they do well. That idea is more akin to an archer./QUOTE]

I play a straight Hexblade and do very well as a frontliner compared to our barbarian and fighter. They don’t need to MC. They are still full casters and have their invocations. I would take a straight HB over any other straight martial class with the exception of the Paladin (and that’s only cuz of the Paladins value to a party with his auras and other abilities).

[QUOTE=igor140;24997766] Your goal is to fight smarter, not harder. A hexblade will have a very difficult time going toe-to-toe with a fighter... but throw in some levels of sorcerer, and now you have enough spell slots to use all those amazing spells like shield, fly, hunger of hadar, etc... and still enough spell slots for eldritch smite. You still won't be able to trade blows with the fighter, but you won't have to.

I agree with most of what you said except about a HB having a tough time going TtT with a Fighter. The fighter would not stand much of a chance. You could put a scenario together where the HB loses but all things being equal, the HB wins 99/100.
* You can keep it straight melee (the fighter’s best chance) and the fighter loses: shadow of moil (disadvantage to attacks against HB, HB gets adv to attacks, fighter takes 2d8 necrotic if he does hit, requires concentration); blink (half of the rounds HB won’t be a target at all and can move 10 feet from where you were each time the effect happens); make fighter target of HB curse (crit on 19/20 can be devastating if HB is 11 and with eldritch smite invocation, bonus damage per hit is better with PAM, and at HB10 half of the fighter’s HITS <not attacks, actual hits> just miss because of armor of hexes. So just to hit the HB the fighter is at disadvantage, has 50% of having no target to even hit each round, if he does manage to hit 50% turn into misses anyway, and if a target lands even after armor of hexes fails he will take 2d8 necrotic. That does not take into account what invocations the HB has and not other tricks. And that’s just one melee scenario. There are many others.
* if he wanted to go ranged, blink, flight, and HB curse/armor of hexes. Rain down eldritch blast. That’s just an easy go to. Their are many many many tricks the HB can do. This does not include other fiats (summons, banishment <if you don’t feel like fighting at all>, hold person/eldritch smite, etc...)

Taking a few levels of sorcerer certainly helps on the low to mid levels but you will ultimately miss out on 6-9 level spells and other feats/ASIs.

[DarknessEternal]

My favorite character that I have in 5e is a W. He is one of if not the most powerful char in our group and I play with some minmaxers (self included).


Then show me how.

[Temperjoke]

Something to consider: directly casting spells is only one part of what a warlock can do. I think it's honestly got the most choices out of all the classes, since you choose spells, pact, pact boon, invocations, and at higher levels your mystic arcanums. You could easily play nothing but warlocks and never repeat the playstyle because of your choices.

[kbob]

Then show me how.

No. You didn’t ask politely. And you didn’t say the magic word.

[kbob]

Something to consider: directly casting spells is only one part of what a warlock can do. I think it's honestly got the most choices out of all the classes, since you choose spells, pact, pact boon, invocations, and at higher levels your mystic arcanums. You could easily play nothing but warlocks and never repeat the playstyle because of your choices.

This is really the warlock’s strength. Customization.

[Azuresun]

I don't put my players through the ringer of 6-8 encounters per LR often, it feels like a slog a lot of the time for the player groups I have, I tend to lean more into harder encounters that force their hands.

So you're following the rules as written in the DMG, then? :smallsmile:

Personally, I've found that a houserule that short rests need only 5-10 minutes, but you only benefit from them twice a day immediately solves a lot of the problems with one hour being a kinda awkward length of time.

[diplomancer]

So you're following the rules as written in the DMG, then? :smallsmile:

Personally, I've found that a houserule that short rests need only 5-10 minutes, but you only benefit from them twice a day immediately solves a lot of the problems with one hour being a kinda awkward length of time.

I've thought of splitting Hit Point recovery from class features SR recovery; Hit Point recovery would take 1 hour and can be done as many times as the party is able to get it. Class Features recovery would take 5 minutes but only useable twice a day (maybe thrice on looong days. DM permission required).

Justification: SR class features are somewhat analogue to 4e Encounter Powers; but the very fast HP recovery of 4e put some players, more used to older editions, off. Splitting those two very different features would allow better use of SR class features while still not attacking the sense of "realism" of some players.

[Dork_Forge]

So you're following the rules as written in the DMG, then? :smallsmile:

Personally, I've found that a houserule that short rests need only 5-10 minutes, but you only benefit from them twice a day immediately solves a lot of the problems with one hour being a kinda awkward length of time.

Kind of yeah, I mostly just accept that some things aren't going to be a challenge for a RP heavy party in combat and lean more on social and environmental problems (the party spent about two and a half real world hours dealing with a patch of Brown Mold at level 12, severely injuring themselves repeatedly in the process!). Accepting that makes it more pallatable for everyone when heavy combat ensues (like how they're currently in a ...4x deadly or something like that dungeon of Star Spawn).

I like the timing of an hour, because it makes sense in my head that it should take that long to have a meaningful break in that kind of life, and because I like to play with time and consequences.

[Noodz]

How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?

Long thread, but I want to address the OP.

I think the designers did a great job making the warlock's mechanics so funky. It really does feel like you're not a bona fide spellcaster, but someone who cheated his way by selling his soul. As a player, if you approach the warlock like any other primary caster, you will be mediocre. When you play a warlock, you can't think like you're just another caster. You are a cheater and you need to think like one.

For spell slots, think that unlike a balanced spellcaster that brought a survival knife, a pistol and an assault rifle with plenty of ammo, you just brought a sawed off shotgun. You have only two shots before reloading with a short rest, so you need to make them count. Forget about suppressive fire, you only press the trigger when you have a headshot lined up.

Invocations are what you use to patch up the vacuum of not having lower level spell slots. All at-will spell invocations demand you to be creative, but they are prime abuse material. Other more exotic stuff like devil's sight are situational, but a lot of situation can be forced upon your enemies face.

Boons are the cherry on top of this funkiness. Tome allows you to cast any ritual, no matter the class, so they're good in high magic campaigns. Chain is probably the easiest to use with guaranteed access to exotic familiars. Blade is a bit harder, but can be pretty unique in a very low magic campaign.

And I would be remiss to not mention EB. A cantrip plus an invocation is a very low price to pay for reliable single-target ranged damage.

But yeah, at the end of the day, if you just want to optimize, bard or wizard is probably easier. A warlock needs to think like the cheater he is and make the most of the tools he has to make up for what he lack. One thing I can tell you however is that having slots recharge on short rests makes 5th level spells really abusable during down time. I figured out for instance that my GOO warlock can wreak havoc on small groups with the Dream spell for days upon days upon days. Cthulhu would be proud if, you know, it actually cared for my character.

[BerzerkerUnit]

OP is overlooking some of the obvious prime Invocations.

Silent Image at will. Disguise Self at will. Forced movement effects at will on the best ranged attack in the game.

And the Warlock playstyle is heavily influenced by Patron choice. A lot of folks are down on Hexblade specter, not me. Basically a free +10 damage a round from level 6 on (50 ft fly and incorporeal allows it to move in and out of melee with full cover. Resists melee damage and might also have critical info on the enemy making it better than speak with dead.)

Genie Pact has only just started to be incorporated into the meta but I suspect the options it presents will continue to have huge impacts.

2 spells/rest for the first half of your career is plenty provided you're using them effectively as openers or finishers.

Good luck!

[KorvinStarmast]

2 spells/rest for the first half of your career is plenty provided you're using them effectively as openers or finishers. Bingo. That is part of "the art of warlocking" and paying attention to what the team needs from you. :smallcool: