3.5 metamagic rods questions.

[Braininthejar2]

1 A metamagic rod has a limit of what level spells it can apply its effect to. (1-3, 1-6, or all levels)

If the spell is already modified by metamagic feats, does the effect of the rod count the base or modified spell level?

(for example, can a lesser widen rod be used on a quickened fireball, or would a greater widen rod be required? )


2 Can a creature with multiple arms apply multiple metamagic rods to the same spell?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

1 A metamagic rod has a limit of what level spells it can apply its effect to. (1-3, 1-6, or all levels)

If the spell is already modified by metamagic feats, does the effect of the rod count the base or modified spell level?

(for example, can a lesser widen rod be used on a quickened fireball, or would a greater widen rod be required? )With the exception of Heighten Spell and a few effects based on it, metamagicked spells are considered to be the same level that they were without the metamagic feat, just (potentially) with a higher spell slot used. So you can still use a rod of Widen on a Quickened, Maximized fireball.


2 Can a creature with multiple arms apply multiple metamagic rods to the same spell?Only one rod is usable at a time on one spell, although the effect is limited per rod, not per rod effect, so feel free to stack multiple effects on one rod as per the rules in the MIC.

[Gruftzwerg]

Metamagic Rods: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods)

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.
You can only use one rod maximum per spell.

Your own feats still adjust the spells level and thus affect the rods ability to target it legally. If the altered level is higher than the rod allows it doesn't work.

[Rebel7284]

Metamagic Rods: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods)

You can only use one rod maximum per spell.

This is correct.


Your own feats still adjust the spells level and thus affect the rods ability to target it legally. If the altered level is higher than the rod allows it doesn't work.

This is incorrect. As explained above, metamagic does not adjust the level of the spell unless otherwise indicated (ie:heighten spell)

[Gruftzwerg]

This is incorrect. As explained above, metamagic does not adjust the level of the spell unless otherwise indicated (ie:heighten spell)

My second sentence is referring to "your own feats" from the first sentence and the last bold part of the quoted rule.

E.g. If you try to use a Maximize Rod on a prepared Quickened Fireball, the quickened fireball has an effective level of 7. This means that you would need a Greater Maximize Rod (can target spells with a level of 7-9) to affect/target it.

[ixrisor]

A quickened fireball is blocked by a globe of invulnerability. I think all of us agree on that. Globe of invulnerability says “An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.” This is the same phrasing as metamagic rods, which say “Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower.”

A quickened fireball is a 3rd level spell, so it’s blocked by globe and can have a lesser metamagic rod applied to it, but it requires a 7th level slot to cast. If it were heightened to 7th level instead, it would be a 7th level spell, and require a greater rod and bypass globe.

[Gruftzwerg]

A quickened fireball is blocked by a globe of invulnerability. I think all of us agree on that. Globe of invulnerability says “An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.” This is the same phrasing as metamagic rods, which say “Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower.”

A quickened fireball is a 3rd level spell, so it’s blocked by globe and can have a lesser metamagic rod applied to it, but it requires a 7th level slot to cast. If it were heightened to 7th level instead, it would be a 7th level spell, and require a greater rod and bypass globe.


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

I thought that rods would fall under this rule. But upon rereading the text part, rods aren't mentioned here. I'm not so sure anymore about my previous statement..^^
The title reads "Magic Items and Metamagic Spells" but the rule I had in mind only calls out potions and wands..

[gijoemike]

A quickened fireball is blocked by a globe of invulnerability. I think all of us agree on that. Globe of invulnerability says “An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.” This is the same phrasing as metamagic rods, which say “Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower.”

A quickened fireball is a 3rd level spell, so itÂ’s blocked by globe and can have a lesser metamagic rod applied to it, but it requires a 7th level slot to cast. If it were heightened to 7th level instead, it would be a 7th level spell, and require a greater rod and bypass globe.

You appear to be arguing that a wizard PC could cast a widened, quickened fireball (effective spell level 3, spell slot used 9th) and stacking the effects of Maximize and Empower on one lesser rod of X/X said wizard PC could cast a maximized, empowered, quickened, widened fireball? Is the previous statement correct?

If yes....
That is absurd and gets a book thrown at you; by the other PCs no less not the GM. That is painfully obvious that is not in any way how it was intended to act. A rod is invoked as a spell is being cast, the quicken/widened spell is using a much higher spell level. For resistances and saves Fireball is still level 3. But to allow lesser rods to be used on metamagiced lvl 9 spells is silly. If you want to use a rod to get to an effective spell slot of 11 or more, it HAS to be the greater version.

We can chalk this up to poor usage of the phrase spell level. As there are examples in all the rule books were spell level means "effective spell level", "actual spell level", "modified spell level." I read the rods text as I am casting a actual 9th lvl spell. I read the exact same text in globe of invulnerability as I am casting an effective 3rd lvl spell to be countered. Same text different meaning because the people that wrote D&D rulebooks are not lawyers and language is very vague.

[Rebel7284]

If yes....
That is absurd and gets a book thrown at you; by the other PCs no less not the GM. That is painfully obvious that is not in any way how it was intended to act. A rod is invoked as a spell is being cast, the quicken/widened spell is using a much higher spell level. For resistances and saves Fireball is still level 3. But to allow lesser rods to be used on metamagiced lvl 9 spells is silly. If you want to use a rod to get to an effective spell slot of 11 or more, it HAS to be the greater version.


Why is this absurd? The designers clearly wanted a quickened third level spell to still count as a third level spell for multiple things, including save DCs and thus made the choice that metamagic does not affect the spell level, just has the extra cost of a higher slot used or rod charge.

What I personally don't like is the idea of combining multiple metamagic rods into a single item and thus bypassing the limitation of "only one metamagic rod per spell." as custom items are always up to DM discretion and since such an item does something unique, it would have to have custom pricing.

[Darg]

You appear to be arguing that a wizard PC could cast a widened, quickened fireball (effective spell level 3, spell slot used 9th) and stacking the effects of Maximize and Empower on one lesser rod of X/X said wizard PC could cast a maximized, empowered, quickened, widened fireball? Is the previous statement correct?

If yes....
That is absurd and gets a book thrown at you; by the other PCs no less not the GM. That is painfully obvious that is not in any way how it was intended to act. A rod is invoked as a spell is being cast, the quicken/widened spell is using a much higher spell level. For resistances and saves Fireball is still level 3. But to allow lesser rods to be used on metamagiced lvl 9 spells is silly. If you want to use a rod to get to an effective spell slot of 11 or more, it HAS to be the greater version.

We can chalk this up to poor usage of the phrase spell level. As there are examples in all the rule books were spell level means "effective spell level", "actual spell level", "modified spell level." I read the rods text as I am casting a actual 9th lvl spell. I read the exact same text in globe of invulnerability as I am casting an effective 3rd lvl spell to be countered. Same text different meaning because the people that wrote D&D rulebooks are not lawyers and language is very vague.

I think you you are misunderstanding how rods work. Rods let you use a virtual feat of the metamagic in the name. If you are a prepared caster, it lets you prepare a spell with the metamagic in the rod. If you are a spontaneous caster you still use a full-round action to cast the metamagic spell. This means means a sorcerer can't use a quickened rod baseline. The only difference from the feats is that you can only use them a certain number of times per day and they don't adjust the spell slot used.

[Rebel7284]

If you are a prepared caster, it lets you prepare a spell with the metamagic in the rod.

I have never seen it played this way for prepared casters.

[Darg]

I have never seen it played this way for prepared casters.

Really? I thought the metamagic rod rules were pretty straight forward:


Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Are people using rods like divine metamagic?

[Rebel7284]

Really? I thought the metamagic rod rules were pretty straight forward:



Are people using rods like divine metamagic?

This is funny because I have wondered if Divine Metamagic was meant to apply during preparation or casting, but never wondered this about Metamagic Rods. I think the whole "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)" which I am seeing in the SRD heavily implies that they are used when casting, not preparation.

[Jay R]

The above discussion seems to make clear that there is no clear, universally accepted answer, so it would be a DM judgment call.

[Darg]

This is funny because I have wondered if Divine Metamagic was meant to apply during preparation or casting, but never wondered this about Metamagic Rods. I think the whole "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)" which I am seeing in the SRD heavily implies that they are used when casting, not preparation.

They can be, when used by spontaneous casters.

[Crake]

This is funny because I have wondered if Divine Metamagic was meant to apply during preparation or casting, but never wondered this about Metamagic Rods. I think the whole "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)" which I am seeing in the SRD heavily implies that they are used when casting, not preparation.

This was answered in the FAQ:


Does a wizard (or other spellcaster who prepares spells)
with a metamagic rod (DMG 236) activate it when preparing
spells (thus preparing three spells with a metamagic effect
without paying the extra spell level cost) or when casting
spells (allowing her to apply the metamagic effect to any
three spells she likes)?
The latter. The metamagic rods function the same for any
spellcaster—they allow her to apply a metamagic effect “on the
fly” when casting the spell to be affected. The exception is the
sorcerer (or by extension, any other spontaneous spellcaster)
who must still use a full-round action to cast the affected spell.

[Darg]

This was answered in the FAQ:

That ruling makes no sense. The whole reason that metamagic requires a full-round action for spontaneous casters is that they are applying the feat "on the fly." Allowing the rods to apply "on the fly" for prepared spellcasters unfairly disadvantages spontaneous casters who need still need to take the full-round action just like the feat. It also doesn't even closely concur with the rod entry text which says it allows you the use of the feat. If we use this ruling, that would imply that the metamagic feats no longer need preparation and can be applied when cast for prepared casters.

This is why I don't use the FAQ other than for ideas.

[Crake]

That ruling makes no sense. The whole reason that metamagic requires a full-round action for spontaneous casters is that they are applying the feat "on the fly." Allowing the rods to apply "on the fly" for prepared spellcasters unfairly disadvantages spontaneous casters who need still need to take the full-round action just like the feat. It also doesn't even closely concur with the rod entry text which says it allows you the use of the feat. If we use this ruling, that would imply that the metamagic feats no longer need preparation and can be applied when cast for prepared casters.

This is why I don't use the FAQ other than for ideas.

Considering about half the people in this thread have allowed metamagic rods to spontaneously apply metamagic to prepared spells, I'd say the ruling clearly does have some merit. Also, it's no secret that wizards unfairly punished spontaneous casters frequently in early 3.5 because they overestimated their power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Considering about half the people in this thread have allowed metamagic rods to spontaneously apply metamagic to prepared spells, I'd say the ruling clearly does have some merit. Also, it's no secret that wizards unfairly punished spontaneous casters frequently in early 3.5 because they overestimated their power.That, and at least a few of them absolutely despised the very idea of the class and crapped on it at every opportunity.