How to enter this (3rd party) prestige class?

[Thane of Fife]

I have a 3rd party d20 setting book here (Castlemourn). I quite like the setting, but the mechanics are, as might be expected, hit-or-miss. One thing that does catch my eye, though, is the Rhymesword prestige class. However, I feel like the prerequisites make it a somewhat difficult class to qualify for, so I was hoping for some advice on how one might build to get in.

The prereqs in question are:
BAB +4
6 ranks each in Spellcraft and Decipher Script
The feats Crown Tongue Chant, Magical Aptitude, and Weapon Focus (any sword)
(The Crown Tongue Chant feat is also from this book - it gives you a few 0-level spells from any list and the ability to cast them a few times per day.)

That is not, in-and-of-itself, tough to qualify for - a bard could get in easily, for example. The problem is getting in with something that synergies with the class.

The class itself is medium BAB and offers no casting advancement, but it does itself have accelerated, Int-based half-casting, getting up to level 4 spells and CL 15 at level 10 in the prestige class, with a decent but not amazing spell list. Probably the most interesting class feature allows it to swap the bonus from magic weapon, greater magic weapon, or magic vestment for equivalent magic weapon/armor qualities.

To me, this looks like something that belongs on a martial sort of character, or maybe a martial/rogue multiclass. But I think you would want to maximize the BAB and hit points you get before ducking into this prestige class. But I'm only so-so on my knowledge of the breadth of 3.5, and I'm not sure how to get those skill ranks (and Concentration would also be helpful!) while keeping BAB and hit points up, and still getting into the class in a timely fashion.

Any advice?

[Kelb_Panthera]

duksblade 4 (player's handbook 2) looks like a -really- obvious entry. Both skills as class skills, full bab, not much going on that you'll lose out on by moving to a PrC. Seems like a simple solution, really.

[Fizban]

I doubt the class has an "expected" entry after 4th, considering Duskblade is the only full BAB class with (apparently) Decipher Script as a class skill. I would virtually guarantee you are expected to lose a point of BAB to end up at the more common after 5th entry. At 4th you could have both skills cross-class at 3 ranks, at which point you only need 6 ranks in-class on your 5th level to qualify. Bard has a base of 6 skill points, the minimum for any other class is 2 skill points, thus as long as you don't have an Int penalty, you can enter with Any Full BAB 4/Bard 1. This also works with Expert. Human Paragon only has 4+ skills, but can be taken at 1st to start with 4 ranks each.

Of course, once you accept that you're losing a point of BAB, any 3/4 BAB class might as well have four levels. So you can just finish Human Paragon, or take Bard 4, etc. Or with fractional BAB, you can bring in any 3 levels of a different 3/4 BAB class, plus your Full BAB 1, and Bard or Expert right before entering the PrC.

Hexblade is a rare full BAB class with Spellcraft, though Cha focused, which could reduce the effective skill point cost while granting Mettle and a Familiar. There are no DMG2 Mentor types with Decipher Script associated, though you could ask for/create one. There's also an Unearthed Arcane or Dragon Mag feat that just gives you two class skills as I recall. But really, I'd just accept the -1 BAB and skill costs and move on.

[Khatoblepas]

I was thinking about a potential Swashbuckler entry, but that decipher script prereq is tough. Duskblade 3/Fighter 1/Rhymesword 3/Abjurant Champion 1 might be a nice beginning, as you can use Magic Vestments to get bonus abilities on your clothes while benefitting from mage armor. 4th level spells at level 8 with a loss of only one BAB is pretty amazing. To continue it would be difficult, maybe Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder?

Crown Tongue Mastery is also a pretty amazing feat, it explicitly gives you spellcasting,and any 0th level spell from any list ever isn't bad. I'm sure there are a few lists that you can harvest from.

[Thane of Fife]

duksblade 4 (player's handbook 2) looks like a -really- obvious entry. Both skills as class skills, full bab, not much going on that you'll lose out on by moving to a PrC. Seems like a simple solution, really.

You're right, that does sound like a simple solution. I didn't realize duskblades got decipher script (though I figured they probably got spellcraft).




I doubt the class has an "expected" entry after 4th, considering Duskblade is the only full BAB class with (apparently) Decipher Script as a class skill. I would virtually guarantee you are expected to lose a point of BAB to end up at the more common after 5th entry. At 4th you could have both skills cross-class at 3 ranks, at which point you only need 6 ranks in-class on your 5th level to qualify. Bard has a base of 6 skill points, the minimum for any other class is 2 skill points, thus as long as you don't have an Int penalty, you can enter with Any Full BAB 4/Bard 1. This also works with Expert. Human Paragon only has 4+ skills, but can be taken at 1st to start with 4 ranks each.


I agree with you that the expected entry is at 6th level, and I wasn't really looking to get around that. Rather, I guess I am not sure what classes give Spellcraft and Decipher Script and that would fit into the character/build.

For example, two levels of wizard would get you in (on top of fighter or something), but I feel like those levels would be something of dead weight. Expert and human paragon are both decent options that I hadn't thought of. Bard is... possibly the best option, but I feel like it would be tough to get much out of bard - as a melee character, this character will already need decent physical scores, and casting will be off of Int, so I feel like much of what comes from bard would be a struggle to use, given that I probably will have a pretty lackluster charisma score.



But I appreciate all of the suggestions.

[Fizban]

A number of 3.0 prestige classes asked for some amount of casting, and then gave you 4th level casting of their own. The original Bladesinger is one, and I'm sure there are others.The Blade Dancer from OA requires spellcasting, and doesn't progress or give any spellcasting at all, while the Shapeshifter gives half and can be entered via spells or without spells at all- meanwhile Shifter/Master of Many Forms requires an ability normally only possible via a spellcasting class, and yet stops progressing spells. Dragon Disciple still requires spellcasting and gives only a few bonus slots. And making alchemical items requires spellcasting, despite being an otherwise entirely non-magical skill and items.

There is clearly an idea that just like you might learn a specific amount of a skill and stop, or choose not to take an entire "feat line," or multiclass out of a class- that it was perfectly acceptable to have a prestige class, something that is supposed to be unique, which requires you to learn a just a little or a very specific bit of magic before you can "adapt" it or "progress" in your studies to something more exotic. The same way a person might never use the skill points or feats they took to enter something, such classes are not written with the expectation that the small amount of casting you may or may not have taken to enter, is going to be important.

This is not necessarily good or bad design. Good prestige classes should have requirements that make sense and are natural enough for someone to pivot into them after 1st level, but should not necessarily be so simple as to be non-prerequisites that any member of a class would meet.

There is a striking difference between classes like this and the original Bladesinger, and Holy Liberator, where a 4th level full BAB casting PrC has been written for generic martial types to enter: there's just no good prerequisites to use, so they tack on random feats like Iron Will which people don't usually take just to make the class harder to enter. These prerequisites make far less sense than simply requiring one level of casting from the appropriate class.

Obviously 3.5 rewrites and new material agreed with what was probably a player complaint that these PrCs left you with messy character sheets with an extra little chunk of casting from a separate class, and that anything which requires spellcasting should progress that casting. But this also either gets rid of unique spell lists for these classes (and any ability to specifically balance them) by making them all full caster derived, or creates classes with ugly arbitrary prerequisites that have nothing to do with magic before pulling magic out of nowhere.

Prestige classes that are actually unique, and not just piles of more and more powerful class features that you "paid" for with a "tax," (or by taking an already effective build), should be able to use whatever prerequisites they want- and once you've got a few levels in the PrC, it shouldn't matter how you entered, unless you're deliberately making an effort to continue what you used be before. You wanted to be X, now you're X, and X should be self-sufficient if it's supposed to be some big unique thing worth a Prestige Class. Even PrCs defined by adding more minor abilities to an existing skill set should still be costing you levels of your original class, and can be structured so that you can "exit" at various points after you've got what you came for.


Rather, I guess I am not sure what classes give Spellcraft and Decipher Script and that would fit into the character/build.

For example, two levels of wizard would get you in (on top of fighter or something), but I feel like those levels would be something of dead weight. Expert and human paragon are both decent options that I hadn't thought of. Bard is... possibly the best option, but I feel like it would be tough to get much out of bard - as a melee character, this character will already need decent physical scores, and casting will be off of Int, so I feel like much of what comes from bard would be a struggle to use, given that I probably will have a pretty lackluster charisma score.
Two levels of wizard is two levels of wizard, with 3+ 1st level spells per day. There a tons of 1st level spells with outsized benefits to cast from some sort of slot, those are extra slots. Four levels of Bard is still two 1st level spells, even with 11 Cha, with a bunch more skill points. Either loses exactly 1 point of BAB, plus some amount of hit points. Bard even gives a bunch of Reflex save.

Bard 1 is deadweight with nothing but cantrips and bardic music that will never scale further, sure (plus the saves). And so is Expert or Human Paragon 1, just cleaner about it. You're trading a level of reduced combat for skill points, in this case not to roll the skills, but to meet a prerequisite. That's how multiclassing works. You're not supposed to get everything all the time. If you want to add Spellcraft and Decipher Script ability to a Fighter, you've gotta lose some Fighter. Duskblade happening to have a skill that lets it get qualify for something specifically designed to force a multiclass is if anything a mark against Duskblade- or alternatively, in a world where Duskblades exist, there shouldn't be any PrCs that have been set up to require multiclassing to enter a unique PrC with fighter/mage powers, because Duskblade is already that as base class.

I just don't get what the problem is. Any full BAB 4/Skill Fixer 1 can enter. The available published skill fixing classes with access to both Spellcraft and Decipher Script lack any interesting stacking or scaleable class features at 1st, almost certainly on purpose: Spellcraft isn't supposed to be for non-casters, and Decipher Script is barely supposed to be for anyone. Using Wizard 2 instead gives you a handful of 1st level spells that thanks to a few particular spells will remain useful basically forever.

Since Rogues have Decipher Script, Hexblade and Rogue could be used to avoid adding spellcasting, but you'll still have a Curse hanging around (and Hexblade is another fighter/mage base class).

[Zarvistic]

Cloistered Cleric 1 fits this well I think. You'd get the skills,War Domain and Knowledge Devotion works well for your concept I think and one more Devotion feat to use turn attempts on or just a nice domain ability. Could also give up the turning for the no turning/warrior priest acf from dragon magazine which lets you quicken one of those armor or weapon enhancing spells 1/day.

[Troacctid]

I would personally just take a feat in order to gain the extra class skills.

[nedz]

Duskblade 4 / Swordsage 1 / ...
Would get you Weapon Focus for free, and 6 level 1 or 2 manoeuvres.

Duskblade 2 / Beguiler 4 / ...
Slightly later entry, but lots of useful spells. You want Beguiler for the utility spells - but it does have the requisite skills though. Both of these classes can cast in light armour FWIW.

It depends on the character concept you are looking for ?

[Thane of Fife]

I just don't get what the problem is. Any full BAB 4/Skill Fixer 1 can enter. The available published skill fixing classes with access to both Spellcraft and Decipher Script lack any interesting stacking or scaleable class features at 1st, almost certainly on purpose: Spellcraft isn't supposed to be for non-casters, and Decipher Script is barely supposed to be for anyone. Using Wizard 2 instead gives you a handful of 1st level spells that thanks to a few particular spells will remain useful basically forever.

I've been thinking about what you're saying here. I think my problem is one of frustration with the book. You're looking at the prerequisites and (presumably) thinking something like, "Oh, Spellcraft 6. You have to have caster levels for that."

I am looking at the fluff text and the specific text of the mechanics, and to me it reads like it is intended as something of an alternate bard, perhaps something closer to a 1e type bard, where you start as something of a fighter/rogue (or equivalent), and then upon getting to this PrC, you are trading off some fighting ability and skills in exchange for starting to cast. If you get into the PrC around level 6, I think it would make such a character perfectly playable (at least as much as any jack-of-all-trades type character will ever be). But the fighter/rogue that the PrC seems aimed towards can't actually get in on schedule.

Logically speaking, you are of course correct that a few levels in bard or wizard is a perfectly good way to qualify. But I guess emotionally speaking, it bothers me that the best way to get into something that is sort of an alternate bard is to go through the regular bard. There are of course other spellcasting classes that get the skill, but I suppose my real problem is that the fluff of the PrC is (in setting-neutral terms) basically being so studied in Draconic that you can squeeze the magic out of it. For understandable reasons, it is using Spellcraft as the makeshift Linguistics: Draconic skill, but it produces (in my mind) unsatisfactory results, because a skill-monkey should be able to meet that requirement, but in practice, you need to be a spellcaster to do so.

In that context, Expert is probably the best answer, but I like the suggestion of Cloistered Cleric, and I'll probably look into the Duskblade, too.

In fairness, it's also possible I'm just completely wrong about the intent of the class. For all that the class doesn't seem to mesh well with bards except in prerequisites, and for all that the class features seem written with the expectation that you don't have any non-Rhymesword casting, the picture on the page does show a guy holding two swords and a lute.


Cloistered Cleric 1 fits this well I think. You'd get the skills,War Domain and Knowledge Devotion works well for your concept I think and one more Devotion feat to use turn attempts on or just a nice domain ability. Could also give up the turning for the no turning/warrior priest acf from dragon magazine which lets you quicken one of those armor or weapon enhancing spells 1/day.

Cloistered Cleric is an interesting idea, and you're right that I could see it fitting well with the concept. I could definitely see myself going with that.


I would personally just take a feat in order to gain the extra class skills.

It was something I looked into a bit, but the only feat I saw referred to as giving Spellcraft as a class skill was Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, and I'm not familiar enough with it to even know if it's a feat I could qualify for.

[Troacctid]

It was something I looked into a bit, but the only feat I saw referred to as giving Spellcraft as a class skill was Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, and I'm not familiar enough with it to even know if it's a feat I could qualify for.
If you can use magazine material, Academy Graduate or Flexible Mind could give you both skills at once. With the door open to third-party books, I'm sure there are even more options out there—I believe there's something in Kingdoms of Kalamar, for example.

[Fizban]

to me it reads like it is intended as something of an alternate bard, . . .But the fighter/rogue that the PrC seems aimed towards can't actually get in on schedule.
Some 3rd party books had ACFs before they were cool- if you haven't already, check to see if there are any in the book that put Spellcraft on random classes.

fluff of the PrC is (in setting-neutral terms) basically being so studied in Draconic that you can squeeze the magic out of it. For understandable reasons, it is using Spellcraft as the makeshift Linguistics: Draconic skill, but it produces (in my mind) unsatisfactory results, because a skill-monkey should be able to meet that requirement, but in practice, you need to be a spellcaster to do so.
Ah, is there anything Spellcraft doesn't do? No, there is not :smallsigh: Sounds like they should have made themselves a new skill then, if the "High Crown Chant" feat which presumably is already meant to demonstrate that ability wasn't enough.

In fairness, it's also possible I'm just completely wrong about the intent of the class. For all that the class doesn't seem to mesh well with bards except in prerequisites, and for all that the class features seem written with the expectation that you don't have any non-Rhymesword casting, the picture on the page does show a guy holding two swords and a lute.
It has Rhyme in the title and a picture of a guy with an instrument? Yeah, it's a Bard class, not even a question. Why they've decided that speaking Draconic, which is done via Spellcraft, has anything to do with instruments or music or Decipher Script, and lets you modify weapon and armor buffing spells, I have no idea. I skimmed past the R in the name and between the Decipher Script and weapon/armor effects, assumed it was some sort of runic concept.


To be clear, Magical Aptitude is also a garbage prerequisite, in my opinion. So at this point I'd strip the Spellcraft requirement, presuming that High Crown Chant already does enough there (and might require its own Spellcraft ranks, which since it grants spells does make sense*), as well as Magical Aptitude on general principle. With just Decipher Script and the feats and BAB you could enter with a Rogue dip as the skill fixer or even the main body. But without modifying, the two mostly dead feats actually push pretty hard for taking 2-3 Human Paragon in my mind, if you want a non-Bard entry.

*Aside from the fact that casting spells doesn't require any bit of Spellcraft skill at all. But I guess it can be used to reflect someone who rather than learning the actual magic first via spontaneous occurrence, experimentation, or rote formula via base class, learned from a theory-first direction on the side requiring the skill first.

It was something I looked into a bit, but the only feat I saw referred to as giving Spellcraft as a class skill was Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, and I'm not familiar enough with it to even know if it's a feat I could qualify for.
It's an Abyssal Heritor feat from Fiendish Codex 1. The prerequisites are no problem, but the feat category locks your alignment to Chaotic, and it comes with a Gather Information Penalty.

But if all you want is to add Spellcraft- well you should be able to do that with Apprentice [Spellcaster]. But being apprenticed to a spellcaster apparently gives you access Use Magic Device, which has nothing to do with spellcasting, instead of Spellcraft. But that's because the Apprentice feats are screwed up anyway, since anyone can be apprenticed to anyone and rather than being for teaching people how to do their main job, the feats have the most clear an obvious use of aiding multiclass builds, particularly for PrC requirements. Unless you're a spellcaster, who get special benefits that either don't exist at all or have higher costs elsewhere.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It was something I looked into a bit, but the only feat I saw referred to as giving Spellcraft as a class skill was Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, and I'm not familiar enough with it to even know if it's a feat I could qualify for.


If you can use magazine material, Academy Graduate or Flexible Mind could give you both skills at once. With the door open to third-party books, I'm sure there are even more options out there—I believe there's something in Kingdoms of Kalamar, for example.

Two more first-party options for picking up one of the skills:

Aereni Focus -- First level only, elf only, Eberron specific. The chosen skill is permanently a class skill, you get +3 to it, and you count as having Skill Focus in that skill for meeting prerequisites.

Skill Knowledge -- Make two class skills permanently class skills, or one cross-class skill permanently a class skill. Not as good as Aereni Focus, but fits into a lot more builds.

Note also that since you get feats after you assign skill points, you won't be able to take advantage of their status as class-skills until the next level. There's an argument to be made that that wouldn't apply for a racial bonus feat, since you're getting the feat during your childhood, or you could take another feat that gives you some skill points (Human Heritage or Open Minded are the two I know) if you're getting two feats at that level.

[Fizban]

Skill Knowledge -- Make two class skills permanently class skills, or one cross-class skill permanently a class skill. Not as good as Aereni Focus, but fits into a lot more builds.
That's the one from Unearthed Arcana. It's from the Alternative Skill System section, which is a couple different versions of removing skill points. Since points are removed and thus every character has a cap on how many skills they know which is likely determined at 1st level, the Skill Knowledge feat is provided to allow people to get more skills. It's actually worth a continuous and retroactive 2 skill points per level, but has nothing to do with normal skill points. Despite this, it is often used as an example of "1st party" support for adding any skill to your class list with a feat. Though ironically, I'm pretty sure several variants from the book are actually OGC from 3rd party books.

Note also that since you get feats after you assign skill points, you won't be able to take advantage of their status as class-skills until the next level. There's an argument to be made that that wouldn't apply for a racial bonus feat, since you're getting the feat during your childhood, or you could take another feat that gives you some skill points (Human Heritage or Open Minded are the two I know) if you're getting two feats at that level.
I think there might be a sidebar or FAQ entry or quote somewhere that acknowledges taking a 1st level feat that modifies class skills doesn't do what you want it to because of the order of operations, and does make the suggestion that DMs just ignore that problem anyway. No idea where though and it could just be projecting- I'm quite sure it's an accepted char-op ruling even moreso than ignoring multiclassing xp, as so many people aren't even aware there is an exact stated order of operations for char-gen and level up.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

That's the one from Unearthed Arcana. It's from the Alternative Skill System section, which is a couple different versions of removing skill points. Since points are removed and thus every character has a cap on how many skills they know which is likely determined at 1st level, the Skill Knowledge feat is provided to allow people to get more skills. It's actually worth a continuous and retroactive 2 skill points per level, but has nothing to do with normal skill points.

True, it's intended for use with an alternate skill system; should have mentioned that in my post. However, it doesn't even require any editing to make sense for the default skill system, and comparing it to Aereni Focus and Educated (two other skill-gaining feats) it fits right into that balance point, even perhaps a bit weak compared to Educated, depending on what version of that feat you use.

In short, it's not intended for the default system, but it's both functional and balanced without having to do even a little homebrew, so I think it's a fair recommendation.



I think there might be a sidebar or FAQ entry or quote somewhere that acknowledges taking a 1st level feat that modifies class skills doesn't do what you want it to because of the order of operations, and does make the suggestion that DMs just ignore that problem anyway. No idea where though and it could just be projecting- I'm quite sure it's an accepted char-op ruling even moreso than ignoring multiclassing xp, as so many people aren't even aware there is an exact stated order of operations for char-gen and level up.

Yeah, the whole order of operations is a little weird. Especially since feats already ignore it as far as meeting prerequisites; as long as you will qualify by the time you finish leveling up, you can take the feat. At that point, I don't know why they didn't put it either at the end of the order of operations (to line up with that rule) or at the start (to take advantage of it as a separate rule).

[Thane of Fife]

Some 3rd party books had ACFs before they were cool- if you haven't already, check to see if there are any in the book that put Spellcraft on random classes.

This is actually a pretty late 3e book - it's from 2007. There aren't any ACFs in it, but there are some feats that give new class skills - unfortunately, none of them give Spellcraft or Decipher Script. Though I do note that the gnome has been reworked to give any three skills of your choice as class skills, so that's another possibility.


It has Rhyme in the title and a picture of a guy with an instrument? Yeah, it's a Bard class, not even a question. Why they've decided that speaking Draconic, which is done via Spellcraft, has anything to do with instruments or music or Decipher Script, and lets you modify weapon and armor buffing spells, I have no idea. I skimmed past the R in the name and between the Decipher Script and weapon/armor effects, assumed it was some sort of runic concept.

The class has nothing to do with instruments or music - it doesn't even get Perform as a class skill. As for the buffing ability, I think it's intended as a metamagic kind of thing (the class also has an elemental substitution ability). And it requires Spellcraft checks to do, which is where that comes in. Why they decided to make up this somewhat new metamagic system and bolt it to this one prestige class, I don't know.

Part of the setting premise is that it is somewhat post-magical-apocalypse. It is stated that the old, magic empire had magic woven into their language that everyone could use, but that this has basically been lost with language drift. If I were to speculate why it is called the Rhymesword, I would guess that the character is intended to be collecting nursery rhymes and such that people no longer realize had magical meaning, and using that and linguistic study to reassemble the older, more magical version of the language.


With just Decipher Script and the feats and BAB you could enter with a Rogue dip as the skill fixer or even the main body. But without modifying, the two mostly dead feats actually push pretty hard for taking 2-3 Human Paragon in my mind, if you want a non-Bard entry.

I think that's a pretty reasonable analysis. Wile I will give this book credit for having interesting prestige classes that at least appear to be actually worth taking (I have seen some awful, awful, third-party prestige classes), it is in most cases overly strict with the prerequisites. There's another prestige class that is explicitly common for monks, but which requires Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (The Planes), and a non-lawful alignment. That one is at least easier to get through, in that it's easier to pick up knowledge skills as class skills and Swordsage qualifies pretty easily.


Skill Knowledge -- Make two class skills permanently class skills, or one cross-class skill permanently a class skill. Not as good as Aereni Focus, but fits into a lot more builds.

That is another feat I saw mentioned, but as mentioned below your post, my reading of it was that it was intended for the alternate skill system. In particular, this book has a bunch of feats that give two specific skills as class skills, so all of those would become useless if there was a feat that would give you any two skills.