[CoS] Hexadin build help

[Willywilliamrtx]

Greetings fellow D&D players!

I recently joined a CoS campaign and started out as a Artificer, but as party composition became wonky with people not showing up on session 0 I was asked to swap to Paladin. Now, as you might have guessed, straight Paladin is very mehh to me (especially since Find Greater Steed comes online so late) AND we're using the standard array. Leveling up is BOTH milestone and exp (just to level up faster, DM found this easier than fumbling around a few more milestones, I don't mind) so I'll probably cap out at 12th level or so at the end of CoS.

I decided to opt for Half-Elf to round out some ability scores and to later on - should I have the room - pick up Elven Accuracy. Currently my scores would look like the following:


STR - 12
DEX - 13
CON - 14
INT - 8
WIS - 10
CHA - 15

Using this I would apply Half Elf as +2 CHA/+1 STR(to multiclass out of Paladin)/+1 DEX(to get my +2 on medium armor). Eventually I would want to use a Glaive, and as such need to at least pick up Polearm-Master at some point. Elven Accuracy would come after that, then CHA + 2. GWM would be nice at the end if I could fit it in, but depending on the level split that seems unlikely. My current idea for the level split is:


Paladin 1
Paladin 1/Hexblade 1
Paladin 1/Hexblade 2
Paladin 1/Hexblade 3 (Pact of the Blade - allows Hexblade Warrior to apply to Two-Handed weapons)
Paladin 2/Hexblade 3 (Grab Great Weapon Fighting)
Paladin 3/Hexblade 3 (Oath of Vengeance, gain Vow of Enmity)
Paladin 4/Hexblade 3 (Grab PAM)
Paladin 5/Hexblade 3 (Extra Attack)
Paladin 6/Hexblade 3 (Aura of Protection)
Rest Warlock

How do you all feel about this? Is there a more optimal way to get a SAD PAM online early? Would it be worth it to go V-human instead and to just flat out grab PAM? Let me know!

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Greetings fellow D&D players!

I recently joined a CoS campaign and started out as a Artificer, but as party composition became wonky with people not showing up on session 0 I was asked to swap to Paladin. Now, as you might have guessed, straight Paladin is very mehh to me (especially since Find Greater Steed comes online so late) AND we're using the standard array. Leveling up is BOTH milestone and exp (just to level up faster, DM found this easier than fumbling around a few more milestones, I don't mind) so I'll probably cap out at 12th level or so at the end of CoS.

I decided to opt for Half-Elf to round out some ability scores and to later on - should I have the room - pick up Elven Accuracy. Currently my scores would look like the following:


STR - 12
DEX - 13
CON - 14
INT - 8
WIS - 10
CHA - 15

Using this I would apply Half Elf as +2 CHA/+1 STR(to multiclass out of Paladin)/+1 DEX(to get my +2 on medium armor). Eventually I would want to use a Glaive, and as such need to at least pick up Polearm-Master at some point. Elven Accuracy would come after that, then CHA + 2. GWM would be nice at the end if I could fit it in, but depending on the level split that seems unlikely. My current idea for the level split is:


Paladin 1
Paladin 1/Hexblade 1
Paladin 1/Hexblade 2
Paladin 1/Hexblade 3 (Pact of the Blade - allows Hexblade Warrior to apply to Two-Handed weapons)
Paladin 2/Hexblade 3 (Grab Great Weapon Fighting)
Paladin 3/Hexblade 3 (Oath of Vengeance, gain Vow of Enmity)
Paladin 4/Hexblade 3 (Grab PAM)
Paladin 5/Hexblade 3 (Extra Attack)
Paladin 6/Hexblade 3 (Aura of Protection)
Rest Warlock

How do you all feel about this? Is there a more optimal way to get a SAD PAM online early? Would it be worth it to go V-human instead and to just flat out grab PAM? Let me know!
[/LIST]

First of all congrats for trying for a real level split and not the 1 level dip cheese. The character seems cool.

My initial thoughts with the progression is that it's an awful long time to wait to get an ASI/ Feat (7th) and a Tier 2 ability, which I would consider extra attack or 3rd level spells to be. (8th) If you are going as far as 3rd for Warlock after a level of Paladin, I'd be tempted to keep going to Warlock 5 before swapping back. I guess you were asked to go Pally, so maybe that's why you were going that way.
Anyway, that gets you SAD PAM at 5th and 3rd level spells at 6th. VHuman is good, but so is the 1/2 Elf, so if that's what you want to play go for it.

[Willywilliamrtx]

First of all congrats for trying for a real level split and not the 1 level dip cheese. The character seems cool.

My initial thoughts with the progression is that it's an awful long time to wait to get an ASI/ Feat (7th) and a Tier 2 ability, which I would consider extra attack or 3rd level spells to be. (8th) If you are going as far as 3rd for Warlock after a level of Paladin, I'd be tempted to keep going to Warlock 5 before swapping back. I guess you were asked to go Pally, so maybe that's why you were going that way.
Anyway, that gets you SAD PAM at 5th and 3rd level spells at 6th. VHuman is good, but so is the 1/2 Elf, so if that's what you want to play go for it.

Actually I went Paladin again after Warlock to rush out Extra Attack; but I TOTALLY forgot Thirsting Blade was an Invocation! Paladin 1/Warlock 5 would indeed be faster.

At that point I would also only get Aura of Protection at 11th level, at which point the campaign might already be over so I might even cut down Paladin to 5 or 4(if I see a good replacement for Thirsting Blade at that point).

But I'm still a bit on the fence about the race thing. Half-Elf rounds out some scores, but V-human would get me that bonus action swing asap (technically at character level 4, as I can't PAM + Hexblade Warrior until Warlock 3). Downside being no Elven Accuracy (but I'd have to get +2 CHA anyways as it's at 16 with Vhuman).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Actually I went Paladin again after Warlock to rush out Extra Attack; but I TOTALLY forgot Thirsting Blade was an Invocation! Paladin 1/Warlock 5 would indeed be faster.

At that point I would also only get Aura of Protection at 11th level, at which point the campaign might already be over so I might even cut down Paladin to 5 or 4(if I see a good replacement for Thirsting Blade at that point).

But I'm still a bit on the fence about the race thing. Half-Elf rounds out some scores, but V-human would get me that bonus action swing asap (technically at character level 4, as I can't PAM + Hexblade Warrior until Warlock 3). Downside being no Elven Accuracy (but I'd have to get +2 CHA anyways as it's at 16 with Vhuman).

Yeah, PAM off the hop, then Chr 18 at level 1/4 definitely works. Of course the trade off is 2 less Ability score points and no Darkvision, etc. Your plan had you getting EA well down the tracks though.
My only other thought is that Great Weapon Fighting is pretty marginal unless you are a Fighter and get lots of attacks. I'd be tempted to go Defense or maybe something like Blindfighting, particularly if you are human.

[Willywilliamrtx]

Yeah, PAM off the hop, then Chr 18 at level 1/4 definitely works. Of course the trade off is 2 less Ability score points and no Darkvision, etc. Your plan had you getting EA well down the tracks though.
My only other thought is that Great Weapon Fighting is pretty marginal unless you are a Fighter and get lots of attacks. I'd be tempted to go Defense or maybe something like Blindfighting, particularly if you are human.

Defense is also a solid option yeah. Blindfighting falls off a bit because of the reach aspect with a glaive. GWF was because RAW (we all know the argument by now) it lets you reroll Smite damage.

[diplomancer]

In CoS specifically, specially if your DM plays Strahd intelligently, nothing beats Devotion Paladin 7 to protect your party from his charm. I'd just get 1 Hexblade level, with spear, until I got to Pal 7, then, level up the rest as it feels best with either more Paladin or more Hexblade. More 2 levels of Hexblade would let you get the Glaive you want and, if you wish, the Darkness/Devil's sight combo. Last 2 levels would depend on whether you prefer Paladin 3rd level spells/slota or Warlock 3rd level spells/slots and one extra invocation. A further advantage of the Devotion Paladin is the Sacred Weapon divinity making the weapon magical; not that easy finding a magical glaive.

(a case could be made that going Devotion because of the charm immunity aura is "metagaming". If that's a problem for you and a Devotion Paladin does not fit what you picture your character, go right ahead; however, I don't think it's exactly metagaming to know that Strahd is a vampire and that vampires have a very strong charm ability).

Though Find Greater Steed is wonderful, you will see that Find Steed is already very good in most tier 2 scenarios.

[RogueJK]

In CoS specifically, specially if your DM plays Strahd intelligently, nothing beats Devotion Paladin 7 to protect your party from his charm. I'd just get 1 Hexblade level, with spear, until I got to Pal 7, then, level up the rest as it feels best with either more Paladin or more Hexblade.

That's how I'd do it as well. Hexblade/Devotion Paladin with PAM Spear+Shield+Dueling fighting style, relying on additional Smite chances from your BA PAM Attack for added damage rather than GWM. This gets you Extra Attack, Aura of Protection, and Aura of Devotion ASAP. Grab a single level of Hexblade at either Level 1 or Level 2, then take Paladin to 7 or possibly 8 (depending on how badly you want/need the ASI sooner rather than later), then continue with Hexblade levels.


Could also do similar with Hexblade 1/Vengeance Paladin with PAM Spear+Shield+Dueling, going to Paladin 6 before switching back to Hexblade, if you're set on Vengeance.


I wouldn't take 3 levels of Hexblade on the front end, like with your initial proposed build. It'd delay Extra Attack, your first ASI, and your Paladin Aura too much. If you really want to front-load with Hexblade, you'd likely want to do something like get to Hexblade 5 first, then take 2 levels of Paladin, then consider whether to gain more Paladin levels or more Hexblade levels. But that would probably be less optimal, and it would still severely delay or outright eliminate the sweet Paladin Aura. Besides, it sounds like your party requested that you play specifically a Paladin anyway, so you'll likely want to keep that as your primary class early on...

[Willywilliamrtx]

That's how I'd do it as well. Hexblade/Devotion Paladin with PAM Spear+Shield+Dueling fighting style, relying on additional Smite chances from your BA PAM Attack for added damage rather than GWM. This gets you Extra Attack, Aura of Protection, and Aura of Devotion ASAP. Grab a single level of Hexblade at either Level 1 or Level 2, then take Paladin to 7 or possibly 8 (depending on how badly you want/need the ASI sooner rather than later), then continue with Hexblade levels.


Could also do similar with Hexblade 1/Vengeance Paladin with PAM Spear+Shield+Dueling, going to Paladin 6 before switching back to Hexblade, if you're set on Vengeance.


I wouldn't take 3 levels of Hexblade on the front end, like with your initial proposed build. It'd delay Extra Attack, your first ASI, and your Paladin Aura too much. If you really want to front-load with Hexblade, you'd likely want to do something like get to Hexblade 5 first, then take 2 levels of Paladin, then consider whether to gain more Paladin levels or more Hexblade levels. But that would probably be less optimal, and it would still severely delay or outright eliminate the sweet Paladin Aura. Besides, it sounds like your party requested that you play specifically a Paladin anyway, so you'll likely want to keep that as your primary class early on...

The request was kind of vague, but it was more along the lines of "please another frontliner", ala "someone with decent AC and/or HP".

I will say I completely missed the ruling that PAM now applies to spears - is that in an erreta somewhere for me to reference? Cause if that's the case it would probably look more like:


PLD 1 (Grab Warcaster if V-human)
PLD 1/WLK 1
PLD 2/WLK 1
PLD 3/WLK 1
PLD 4/WLK 1 - Grab Warcaster (PAM if V-human)
PLD 5/WLK 1
PLD 6/WLK 1
Rest WLK


The early Warlock push was purely to get Pact of the Blade, allowing Glaives to benefit from Hexblade Warrior to get the actual SAD of the build online.

[diplomancer]

The request was kind of vague, but it was more along the lines of "please another frontliner", ala "someone with decent AC and/or HP".

I will say I completely missed the ruling that PAM now applies to spears - is that in an erreta somewhere for me to reference? Cause if that's the case it would probably look more like:


PLD 1 (Grab Warcaster if V-human)
PLD 1/WLK 1
PLD 2/WLK 1
PLD 3/WLK 1
PLD 4/WLK 1 - Grab Warcaster (PAM if V-human)
PLD 5/WLK 1
PLD 6/WLK 1
Rest WLK


The early Warlock push was purely to get Pact of the Blade, allowing Glaives to benefit from Hexblade Warrior to get the actual SAD of the build online.

Yeah, it's a somewhat recent (2 years, maybe slightly less) PHB errata. Technically, you can't get Warcaster as a V. Human starting with Paladin, since being able to cast at least one spell is a prerequisite, but I can see many DMs handwaving that for Paladins and Rangers (or even any player who just says "I plan to multiclass and get spells later on). I believe it's more because the feat is entirely useless without spells than a balance thing of keeping it away from V. Human Paladin and Rangers at 1st level.

[Willywilliamrtx]

Yeah, it's a somewhat recent (2 years, maybe slightly less) PHB errata. Technically, you can't get Warcaster as a V. Human starting with Paladin, since being able to cast at least one spell is a prerequisite, but I can see many DMs handwaving that for Paladins and Rangers (or even any player who just says "I plan to multiclass and get spells later on). I believe it's more because the feat is entirely useless without spells than a balance thing of keeping it away from V. Human Paladin and Rangers at 1st level.

Forgot about that yeah. So PAM would come first on a V-human.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One other thought as I look at this. You've gone to the trouble of multiclassing into a subclass to be SAD, which is great for a paladin since normally your abilities are fairly evenly split between your attack stat and Chr. If it was me I'd be trying to come up with a build with limited Feats so that I get 20 Chr as fast as possible, since an ASI there is worth almost double what it normally is.

[Hael]

IMo Hexadins are best built as crit fishers. So elven accuracy is really nice. I’d go Pal1, Hex1, then Pal to 8. spear and shield for the time being. Feats are elven accuracy to get cha18, then PAM. From there you can decide if you want to go two handed. If you do take Hexblade to three for blade pact. The two invocations can be eldritch mind and devil sight (unless you are vengeance). After that, Hex 5 gets you eldritch smite and an ASI (GWM). Rest in Paladin.
Alternatively you keep Hex at 3 and delay the ASI for awhile.

Youll be one of the more optimal nova builds in the game.

[Willywilliamrtx]

One other thought as I look at this. You've gone to the trouble of multiclassing into a subclass to be SAD, which is great for a paladin since normally your abilities are fairly evenly split between your attack stat and Chr. If it was me I'd be trying to come up with a build with limited Feats so that I get 20 Chr as fast as possible, since an ASI there is worth almost double what it normally is.

Honestly the only hard required feat here is PAM.

Elven Accuracy is crit fishing. (and rounds out CHA)
Warcaster would be needed before Warlock gets to 3rd level (so grab if not rushing Warlock to 5)
GWM is "okay", but this already requires both PAM and Warlock at 3 by extension. (So probably only a grab if CHA's already at 20)

So it really depends on the level split as to what's actually required to take (aside from CHA+2)