How would you feel about an ability that interacted with initiative directly?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've got a class I've been tinkering with off and on. The specifics aren't all that relevant, so they're spoilered.


It's a permanent pet class, designed around elemental themes. Warlock-style casting, but without the heavy lift of EB+invocations and mostly a support-style list. Instead, most of the punch comes from their pet and your choice of synergies (invocations, basically, except they influence how your pet operates). Things like "when you cast a spell, your pet can do X" or "when your pet <activates its special ability>, your <thing> against targets in its area of effect <is better>."


The ability in question comes in pretty early and is related to the pact-boon replacement. I call them spirals, and there's either the Inward Spiral or the Outward Spiral. The Inward Spiral is more buffing/support/healing, while the Outward Spiral is more aggressive and offense focused. Which spiral you choose influences what your pet does and what your synergies do.

Unlike a pact boon, you can change it every combat by using the following ability (fluff only half formed at this point):

Walk the Spiral Path
Starting at level 2, your power either flows outward or inward, assaulting foes or warding allies. <insert fluff> After the initiative order is determined but before the first creature takes its turn, you must choose either the Inward or Outward spiral. That choice has the following immediate effect depending on which path you choose and stays in effect until the next time you enter initiative.
* Outward spiral: Choose a hostile creature you can see. Subtract X from its initiative score and add that same amount to your own initiative score, rearranging the turn order if necessary.
* Inward spiral: Subtract X from your own initiative score. Choose an ally you can see. That ally's initiative score increases by that same amount, rearranging the turn order if necessary.

I can see Assassin rogues loving having someone use the Inward Path on them.

But this is also kinda meta. Kinda really meta. And depending on the value of X (yet to be determined), it could often have no effect other than causing a delay in getting combat started (if X + your initiative and their initiative - X are both far enough away from the next person in the order, it doesn't change anything). Maybe instead say that you can choose to swap initiative with another creature (hostile and ahead of you for outward, friendly and behind you, with their consent)?

[MrStabby]

Hmm. It seems like quite a lot of words and complexity for something likely to be a pretty small effect a lot of the time.

I am not too worried about it being a bit meta and immersion breaking as it happens at the start of a fight; you are not yet immersed when this takes place. The exception being if you are surprised - then you are still doing something there which feels odd.

My instinct is to say that your class design seems to be broad enough to accept a huge, huge number of possible buffs so park this idea for the moment and see if there are others you prefer. It isnt like these are crippling downsides to the ability, but you should be able to get an ability with no downsides.

[quinron]

Personally, I don't think you need the "when you roll but before anything takes its turn" stuff - I'd just say "any time you roll for initiative." Per 5e rules, even with surprise, there shouldn't be anyone taking turns without being in the initiative order.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with MrStabby, and I'd go so far as to say that if you're going to include this feature, it'd be a good idea to have at least one or two other explicitly initiative-related features, or maybe just some fluff and ribbons associated with minor time manipulation. That's what this feels like to me.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'll probably leave it out and have you choose a spiral when you finish a long/short rest. Or maybe when you roll initiative. The spiral would then just influence your abilities (ie the earth-element pet's special ability would go from being a defensive shield (inward) to selective-target difficult terrain aura (outward, like the earth grabbing at foes' feet or gravity dragging them down)).

It's not a core feature for the design, so leaving it out isn't much of a change. And I agree that it's too fiddly for likely not making any difference.

[quinron]

I'll probably leave it out and have you choose a spiral when you finish a long/short rest. Or maybe when you roll initiative. The spiral would then just influence your abilities (ie the earth-element pet's special ability would go from being a defensive shield (inward) to selective-target difficult terrain aura (outward, like the earth grabbing at foes' feet or gravity dragging them down)).

It's not a core feature for the design, so leaving it out isn't much of a change. And I agree that it's too fiddly for likely not making any difference.

If nothing else, you've got some gears turning in my head. You made me realize that initiative isn't interacted with very often - I think that was intentional, what with the removal of all the delaying and reordering mechanics from this edition. I'm now interested in making a time-centric class or subclass with some initiative-altering and post-facto abilities.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If nothing else, you've got some gears turning in my head. You made me realize that initiative isn't interacted with very often - I think that was intentional, what with the removal of all the delaying and reordering mechanics from this edition. I'm now interested in making a time-centric class or subclass with some initiative-altering and post-facto abilities.

Doing it more than at the start of combat makes my head hurt. Keeping track of that, even with tools, is probably the most distracting thing about running 5e combat and the source of most of my goofs. Especially around legendary actions (forgetting to use them), to cross a few threads.

[Kane0]

Nothing wrong with it but i would rework it a touch so it doesnt rely on organising initiative then forcing it to be reorganised
Like, for inwards spiral ‘when you roll initiative you can choose to add your bonus to initiative to an ally you can see and hear instead’