Loki (2021)

[understatement]

I don't know if anyone did a thread yet, so here's the official trailer for Loki that dropped today:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYr8K_RBup8

It looks...pretty neat, honestly. If they do anything from Journey into Mystery or Agent of Asgard, I'd be absolutely thrilled. Those were some of my favorite comic stories.

[Ramza00]

Thinking of these inks from My Drag Brunch with Loki (2019) while watching the trailer.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENJq6dAXYAMpyYj?format=jpg

[Dire_Flumph]

I'm not wild about resetting Loki back to where he was in 2012 (or Gamora for that matter), but I've enjoyed the D+ Marvel series enough to give this one some trust, and I'm sure Tom Hiddleston will be entertaining.

[Palanan]

So this is the new, new, new Loki trailer.

It's certainly a little meatier than the previous ones, and I like the fact that they'll be addressing the issue of branch and alternate timelines--although I hope this will mean more clarification rather than ever-greater muddling.

I don't mind an alternative Loki, since the mainstream Loki isn't available. Tom Hiddleston is Tom Hiddleston, so this should be some quality fun.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Maybe this is just the usual Marvel fiddling with scenes to make the trailer but it sounds like the TVA is blaming Loki for the mucking around with the timestream the Avengers did. :smallconfused:

[Thomas Cardew]

I'm a little wary. It looks interesting and I'm far more... not quite excited... but anticipatory for this than I am for any other Marvel D+ show. But I'm reminded of Legends of Tomorrow and that's not a good thing. Multiple timeline controlling agencies are hard to get right and can fall into nonsense and farcical messes really fast.

[Rynjin]

I'm a little wary. It looks interesting and I'm far more... not quite excited... but anticipatory for this than I am for any other Marvel D+ show. But I'm reminded of Legends of Tomorrow and that's not a good thing. Multiple timeline controlling agencies are hard to get right and can fall into nonsense and farcical messes really fast.

...That's not a good thing? Legends of Tomorrow (season 2 onward) is the best thing the CW has made in a looong time. It is by far the most "comic-y" of the comic book stuff that has been made for TV/streaming.

[Cikomyr2]

...That's not a good thing? Legends of Tomorrow (season 2 onward) is the best thing the CW has made in a looong time. It is by far the most "comic-y" of the comic book stuff that has been made for TV/streaming.

Pretty much. I mean, each of Marvel's series is their take on a specific genre. Loki is going to be their take at the Time Travel Hijinx genre, which is more established now than ever.

Marvel ain't exactly trailblazers, except for franchise management.

[Dire_Flumph]

...That's not a good thing? Legends of Tomorrow (season 2 onward) is the best thing the CW has made in a looong time. It is by far the most "comic-y" of the comic book stuff that has been made for TV/streaming.

I mean, I understand in principle there are people that don't want to watch a giant Demon fight a giant talking Teddy Bear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdmVW53Bhd0), but I certainly do. Agree that Season 1 was kind of dull in comparison though. Doom Patrol has also done a great job carrying that brand of madness forward.

[Psyren]

I'm not wild about resetting Loki back to where he was in 2012 (or Gamora for that matter), but I've enjoyed the D+ Marvel series enough to give this one some trust, and I'm sure Tom Hiddleston will be entertaining.

They're not completely reset. Gamora got the rundown on what she missed from GoodNebula, the sister she always wanted. And Loki is getting it from authority figures that have studied his entire life. The important thing, in both cases, is that they believe the folks who tell them about the people they became that first go-round.

Does that mean character-wise they'll both end up exactly where their prime timeline versions ended up, no - but the capacity for character development that led both of them to where they got to is still there. That's all that is needed for their journeys in this iteration to feel organic, credible, and end somewhere north of total villain, just like they did the first time through.


Maybe this is just the usual Marvel fiddling with scenes to make the trailer but it sounds like the TVA is blaming Loki for the mucking around with the timestream the Avengers did. :smallconfused:

The Avengers didn't muck around though, they returned the stones to where and when they found them. I'm guessing Loki didn't, and that's what got their attention.

Come to think of it - his Tesseract hasn't made an appearance in any of the trailers. Keep in mind that that thing was powerful enough to make a Captain Marvel. Did he... lose it? Did the TVA confiscate it?


Pretty much. I mean, each of Marvel's series is their take on a specific genre. Loki is going to be their take at the Time Travel Hijinx genre, which is more established now than ever.

Marvel ain't exactly trailblazers, except for franchise management.

Not seeing the issue. Yes, they're taking a proven formula and applying their IP to it, and the interconnectedness of that attracts audiences who might otherwise skip it. That's a good thing, it means we can get interesting takes on these genres that don't wither on the vine of obscurity the way they might have if they weren't Marvel.

[Kitten Champion]

Honestly, this is probably the hardest show to do outside of WandaVision. Like WandaVision, this is a very weird concept in general. Also, it's a story where the central protagonist is also kind of villainous - or in this case explicitly villainous - and that's not easy to write for in a very general audiences kind of way. However, when you break down what makes Loki work as a character they've clearly come up with ideas to deal with some of those hurdles.

First, make it Cosmic -- this is something Ragnarok proved pretty convincingly to me, that the Thor side of the MCU needs to be big, colourful, and full of loud strangeness. The series concept they've got here is beyond the space opera sphere of the Guardians of the Galaxy kind of-cosmic and into the most cosmic cosmic-Marvel, like The Living Tribunal-kinds of nonsense. Also, making it this level of cosmic means they don't have to make space-ship sets and models if they want to go somewhere like with GotG, creating something closer to a Doctor Who.

Then, Loki is an anarchic Supervillain/anti-hero, obviously, but with that you need some motivation for him to act and something to act against that works within that concept. Now, that's usually been Thor, then Hela, then Thanos... briefly. So, what do you do? Give him a cosmic police agency to screw with and be screwed over by, apparently. I'm sure there's more to it when we get into it, but yeah, it's a power dynamic he can work within that we can relate to which can also serve to push him forward as a character, but at the same time he can also push back against it.

Lastly - and somewhat related to the above - you have Owen Wilson. Going back to sort of basic screenwriting stuff, but Loki's your villain-protagonist and has been described concisely as a diva, you really need someone to play against his larger-than-life personality and shenanigans. Owen Wilson is good at playing low-key chill guy with an unassuming presence, something both pretty opposite to Loki's own temperament but also something he hasn't really dealt with. At the same time, Wilson's disarming folksiness can be grating - I mean, intentionally so - which opens him up more give-and-take with Hiddleston rather than someone more authoritative like Anthony Hopkin's Odin was.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rynjin
Legends of Tomorrow (season 2 onward) is the best thing the CW has made in a looong time.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Comparing something to anything on CW is a very, very low bar.


Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
I mean, I understand in principle there are people that don't want to watch a giant Demon fight a giant talking Teddy Bear, but I certainly do.

Put me in the “not now, not ever” category for that.

I made it through the first episode of Doom Patrol, no need to even think about it ever again.


Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Also, making it this level of cosmic means they don't have to make space-ship sets and models if they want to go somewhere like with GotG, creating something closer to a Doctor Who.

Not sure I see the distinction here. Are you saying it’s more cost-effective because they’re building fewer sets, versus grand CGI spectacles?

[Tyndmyr]

Put me in the “not now, not ever” category for that.

I made it through the first episode of Doom Patrol, no need to even think about it ever again.


I slogged through like three episodes. It doesn't get any better. Not sure why I did that, other than being very bored inside with the pandemic. I kinda get the whacky style they were going for, but in practice, it just felt....really rough.

[Cikomyr2]

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Comparing something to anything on CW is a very, very low bar.



Put me in the “not now, not ever” category for that.

I made it through the first episode of Doom Patrol, no need to even think about it ever again.



Not sure I see the distinction here. Are you saying it’s more cost-effective because they’re building fewer sets, versus grand CGI spectacles?

Cool. So you won't be watching Loki if you clearly hate the entire premise from the get go.

[Mordar]

My only major concern is Owen Wilson playing Owen Wilson pretending to be in a MCU property.

Other than that, the franchise has built enough credit with me that I'll forgive goofy timecop hijinks (and if they are done well, so much the better).

- M

[Psyren]

My only major concern is Owen Wilson playing Owen Wilson pretending to be in a MCU property.

I don't see an issue here either. It worked like gangbusters for Jeff Goldblum.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't see an issue here either. It worked like gangbusters for Jeff Goldblum.

Goldblum wasn't a major protagonist character, though. He was more of an extended cameo, whereas Wilson will be front and center for the entire run of the series if he's a co-protagonist alongside Hiddleston.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
Cool. So you won't be watching Loki if you clearly hate the entire premise from the get go.

Entirely false, and obviously not what I said.


Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Not sure why I did that, other than being very bored inside with the pandemic. I kinda get the whacky style they were going for, but in practice, it just felt....really rough.

Pretty much the same here. It was clunky in every way, especially the extremely forced X-Men parallel. Not even Alan Tudyk could make it remotely appealing.


Originally Posted by Mordar
My only major concern is Owen Wilson playing Owen Wilson pretending to be in a MCU property.

This didn’t stand out as a problem to me. Owen Wilson is kind of like those Quaker rice cakes that you can cover with peanut butter. The rice cake is still there, but it’s the peanut butter you notice. I’m expecting that’ll be the case with Tom Hiddleston.

And if we’re lucky, we’ll get a genuinely fun dynamic between Rice Cakes and Big Bendy Horns. Over in the Falcon and Winter Soldier, the anti-buddy dynamic is one of the most enjoyable things about the show. With an actor of Tom Hiddleston’s calibre, I’m looking forward to something similar in Loki.

[Mordar]

I don't see an issue here either. It worked like gangbusters for Jeff Goldblum.

If only they would have called him something...anything...other than Grandmaster :smallannoyed:

I like Owen Wilson as Owen Wilson pretending to be a Space Cowboy...or a Regular Cowboy Trainrobbing Sidekick. Maybe I'll like him here, but I don't think so. Part of the fun to guess and then find out if I'm right, knowing full well it is a tiny snapshot of the show.

- M

[Eldan]

Also, Goldblum is actually a good actor. I can't think of a role where I ever enjoyed Wilson much.

[Psyren]

If only they would have called him something...anything...other than Grandmaster :smallannoyed:

All I can say is that the vast majority of the movie audience loved him in that role. Maybe it ticked off some of the more hardcore comic fans, but eh.


Goldblum wasn't a major protagonist character, though. He was more of an extended cameo, whereas Wilson will be front and center for the entire run of the series if he's a co-protagonist alongside Hiddleston.

Even if this assessment of his role* turns out to be true, so what? Loki is clearly meant to be more of a comedic hijinks show than, say, WandaVision was. I expect that Owen Wilson Owen Wilson-ing it up in a MCU property is precisely what a sizeable chunk of the audience will be there to see. So again I ask, what's the problem?

*Personally I think "co-protagonist" will be a bit of a stretch. He'll be Loki's handler, the guy who drags him in to TVA to grumpily tell him he's a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html) before turning him loose on his next assignment anyway. Well, more bemused than grumpy most likely, but still.

[Kitten Champion]

Not sure I see the distinction here. Are you saying it’s more cost-effective because they’re building fewer sets, versus grand CGI spectacles?

Pretty much. It's relatively common on genre television for that reason - Sliders, Stargate, Once Upon a Time (who directly lifted the portal effect from Doctor Strange for it's later seasons when they used to use relatively expensive ones), the Transporters in Star Trek were made for this reason, and others that I can't think of at the moment - and like with the TARDIS you don't need to spend the money displaying space travel when "woosh woosh" and you open the door to another planet/time period.

[The Glyphstone]

All I can say is that the vast majority of the movie audience loved him in that role. Maybe it ticked off some of the more hardcore comic fans, but eh.



Even if this assessment of his role* turns out to be true, so what? Loki is clearly meant to be more of a comedic hijinks show than, say, WandaVision was. I expect that Owen Wilson Owen Wilson-ing it up in a MCU property is precisely what a sizeable chunk of the audience will be there to see. So again I ask, what's the problem?

*Personally I think "co-protagonist" will be a bit of a stretch. He'll be Loki's handler, the guy who drags him in to TVA to grumpily tell him he's a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html) before turning him loose on his next assignment anyway. Well, more bemused than grumpy most likely, but still.

For me? Its not. The only movie I've ever seen Wilson in was Shanghai Noon, and I liked it. But if someone doesn't like Owen Wilson, then having him be a major character in Loki is a bigger drawback than someone who doesn't like Jeff Goldblum having him be a prominent cameo in Ragnarok.

[Anteros]

Not liking what I've seen so far. In general I'm pretty burnt out on Marvel, but Loki was always a favorite so I was willing to give it a try, but Owen Wilson is incapable of playing any role except Owen Wilson, so that's a major drawback right out of the gate. I'll never understand why Hollywood insists on casting actors that can't act. It's fine for a buddy-cop movie with Jackie Chan, but not something you want me to take seriously. Hiddleston is also starting to show his age a bit.

Overall it looks like it somehow take itself too seriously while simultaneously being too campy. I'll give it a try, but I'm not optimistic.

[Ramza00]

Hear me out. Loki and Picard cross over. Q torturing Loki, while Picard repairs the timelines.

[Cikomyr2]

I just don't understand this

In general I'm pretty burnt out on Marvel

And this



I'll give it a try, but I'm not optimistic.

In the same post.

Don't watch it then. You just said you are burn out on Marvel, why not just give yourself a pause and just wait until the season ends so you can check if it's worth your time, or you might just get even more tired of Marvel?

You are doing a disservice to a show if you force yourself to watch it while you aren't excited for it, while you are tired of its genre and you outright claim you don't like what the trailer showed you so far. THESE ARE ALL THE FLAGS MAN. Don't watch it.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I just don't understand this


And this



In the same post.

Don't watch it then. You just said you are burn out on Marvel, why not just give yourself a pause and just wait until the season ends so you can check if it's worth your time, or you might just get even more tired of Marvel?

You are doing a disservice to a show if you force yourself to watch it while you aren't excited for it, while you are tired of its genre and you outright claim you don't like what the trailer showed you so far. THESE ARE ALL THE FLAGS MAN. Don't watch it.

Second this. Find something you want to do and do that instead. It’s entertainment, not groceries; you can put it off as long as you want. Odds are the show will still be there in six months, with the added bonus that you’d have the option of binge-watching it if you decide you want to watch it then.

[Cikomyr2]

Yes. It's extremely healthy to not consume stuff you aren't excited about, and forcing yourself on entertainment do you a disservice first and foremost.* you aren't going to be less burned out of Marvel if you have to continuously force feed it to yourself.

Enjoy anything else, and come back to it when you get the crave (and the benefit of people telling you to skip Show X).


*exception may be with certain hobbies, like crafting, painting, drawing, where a depressive state might discourage you from actively engage with your hobby that could provide you with an actually beneficial creative outlet. But thats active entertainment, compared to passive entertainment like TV, movies, podcasts)

[BloodSquirrel]

Don't watch it then. You just said you are burn out on Marvel, why not just give yourself a pause and just wait until the season ends so you can check if it's worth your time, or you might just get even more tired of Marvel?

You are doing a disservice to a show if you force yourself to watch it while you aren't excited for it, while you are tired of its genre and you outright claim you don't like what the trailer showed you so far. THESE ARE ALL THE FLAGS MAN. Don't watch it.

Counterpoint: Spoilers and participating in the public conversation about it.

If something is going to turn out to be good, it's generally better not to miss the bus on those things. If you didn't see the Mando S2 right away, and you spend any amount of time on the internet, the ending has almost certainly been spoiled for you, and if you wanted to talk about, you've missed the best time to do so.

Of course, the upside is that you can wait to hear the general buzz on how it ends before getting excited about a strong start. I skipped Wandavision, thinking I'd watch it when it was all out, but after catching wind of how it ended, I decided not to bother.

[Cikomyr2]

Counterpoint: Spoilers and participating in the public conversation about it.

If something is going to turn out to be good, it's generally better not to miss the bus on those things. If you didn't see the Mando S2 right away, and you spend any amount of time on the internet, the ending has almost certainly been spoiled for you, and if you wanted to talk about, you've missed the best time to do so.

Of course, the upside is that you can wait to hear the general buzz on how it ends before getting excited about a strong start. I skipped Wandavision, thinking I'd watch it when it was all out, but after catching wind of how it ended, I decided not to bother.

Spoilers and conversation about a show you are not interested in and forcing yourself to watch?

I get a lot of people like being linked with the rest of pop culture and "living the moment" with the rest of the community.. but.. it's like forcing yourself to watch baseball just because you want to have something to talk with your father.

[Wraith]

I'll say this for the show: It looks like it's going to be fun.

Falcon & Winter Soldier is excellent, but at it's heart it's a spy-thriller about a racially oppressed ex-soldier with feelings of inadequacy and his sort-of friend who has severe PTSD. Daredevil was great, but a lot of people died horribly and were tortured before dying. I loved Punisher, but it was gruesome and stuffed with grim conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory. Iron Fist was dull, and most of the characters were unlikeable. All of them had some pretty heavy themes and not a small bit of political commentary to make.

But Loki looks like Thor: Ragnorok and GotG; both breathes of fresh air that came after the miserable Thor 2. Full of colour and wacky Nonsense In Space. After 3 hours of Tony Stark complaining about his dead dad and the upcoming fun-sponge that is likely to be Black Widow dealing with being mutilated as a child, I'm really looking forward to colourful, wacky Nonsense In Space. That it stars Tom Hiddleston as he devours the entire scenery and has a plot stolen directly from Back to the Future Part 2 is just lovely.

I'd completely understand if you told me that wasn't your kind of thing - that's fine, I don't expect that everyone will be into that. For me, what I've been promised by Loki is just what I need right now. :smallsmile:

[Cikomyr2]

I'll say this for the show: It looks like it's going to be fun.

Falcon & Winter Soldier is excellent, but at it's heart it's a spy-thriller about a racially oppressed ex-soldier with feelings of inadequacy and his sort-of friend who has severe PTSD. Daredevil was great, but a lot of people died horribly and were tortured before dying. I loved Punisher, but it was gruesome and stuffed with grim conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory. Iron Fist was dull, and most of the characters were unlikeable. All of them had some pretty heavy themes and not a small bit of political commentary to make.

But Loki looks like Thor: Ragnorok and GotG; both breathes of fresh air that came after the miserable Thor 2. Full of colour and wacky Nonsense In Space. After 3 hours of Tony Stark complaining about his dead dad and the upcoming fun-sponge that is likely to be Black Widow dealing with being mutilated as a child, I'm really looking forward to colourful, wacky Nonsense In Space. That it stars Tom Hiddleston as he devours the entire scenery and has a plot stolen directly from Back to the Future Part 2 is just lovely.

I'd completely understand if you told me that wasn't your kind of thing - that's fine, I don't expect that everyone will be into that. For me, what I've been promised by Loki is just what I need right now. :smallsmile:

I am with you on this. Marvel's line of series seems to run the complete gamut of genre.

The consequence of which will be: SOME OF THEM WON'T BE TO YOUR PERSONAL TASTE. And.. it's fine. I really disliked Legends of Tomorrow when I tried it out, but my GF tells me the show gets way better as it gets more light-hearted, so I might pick it up starting season 2 as I know she knows my tastes.

Doesn't make Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 a bad show. It just mean.. we all have our own preferences, and one of these days, one of the Marvel series just won't be catered to your taste. It's fine to skip **** people; Marvel's entire schtick is that you can skip stuff and still have a blast enjoying the things that are more your style.

Now, "Time Travel Shennanigans" is definetly in my Alley; I am chomping at the bits for next season of Dr Who to finally have a release date. :smallfurious:

[BloodSquirrel]

Spoilers and conversation about a show you are not interested in and forcing yourself to watch?

I get a lot of people like being linked with the rest of pop culture and "living the moment" with the rest of the community.. but.. it's like forcing yourself to watch baseball just because you want to have something to talk with your father.


More like "You watch baseball, and you like talking about baseball with your dad, but this one game looks like it's going to be a blowout, so you're not really sure you want to bother, but if you are going to watch it you'd rather at least watch it live."

It's called "thinking on the margins". If you're already in the "uncertain" range regarding whether you'll like something, things like pre-investment in the franchise and avoiding spoilers can be major deciding factors.

[Psyren]

Counterpoint: Spoilers and participating in the public conversation about it.

If something is going to turn out to be good, it's generally better not to miss the bus on those things. If you didn't see the Mando S2 right away, and you spend any amount of time on the internet, the ending has almost certainly been spoiled for you, and if you wanted to talk about, you've missed the best time to do so.

Of course, the upside is that you can wait to hear the general buzz on how it ends before getting excited about a strong start. I skipped Wandavision, thinking I'd watch it when it was all out, but after catching wind of how it ended, I decided not to bother.

And did skipping WandaVision create some massive void in your life? It sounds like everything went fine for you in the end :smalltongue:
Same applies here; forcing oneself to watch Loki because FOMO, as some of the other folks in this thread are lamenting, clearly isn't the horrible and inescapable fate being implied.


I'll say this for the show: It looks like it's going to be fun.

Falcon & Winter Soldier is excellent, but at it's heart it's a spy-thriller about a racially oppressed ex-soldier with feelings of inadequacy and his sort-of friend who has severe PTSD. Daredevil was great, but a lot of people died horribly and were tortured before dying. I loved Punisher, but it was gruesome and stuffed with grim conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory. Iron Fist was dull, and most of the characters were unlikeable. All of them had some pretty heavy themes and not a small bit of political commentary to make.

But Loki looks like Thor: Ragnorok and GotG; both breathes of fresh air that came after the miserable Thor 2. Full of colour and wacky Nonsense In Space. After 3 hours of Tony Stark complaining about his dead dad and the upcoming fun-sponge that is likely to be Black Widow dealing with being mutilated as a child, I'm really looking forward to colourful, wacky Nonsense In Space. That it stars Tom Hiddleston as he devours the entire scenery and has a plot stolen directly from Back to the Future Part 2 is just lovely.

I'd completely understand if you told me that wasn't your kind of thing - that's fine, I don't expect that everyone will be into that. For me, what I've been promised by Loki is just what I need right now. :smallsmile:

Personally I loved all of it, from Daredevil and Punisher's grit to Ragnarok/Guardians' high flying space adventure. And I know for sure Black Widow will be fun solely because of David Harbour as Red Guardian.

The one exception was Iron Fist, which had essentially no redeeming qualities and which sadly took down the Defenders along with it.

[BloodSquirrel]

And did skipping WandaVision create some massive void in your life?

As I already stated, waiting on The Mando S2 meant that I was spoiled. By contrast, I'm quite glad that I watched Infinity War and Winter Soldier right away, rather than waiting and being spoiled.

Hell, even with Godzilla vs Kong I'm glad I was able to watch it before seeing spoilers.

[Psyren]

But waiting on WandaVision because you were on the fence about it, and ultimately deciding it wasn't for you, turned out fine. And now there are folks who are even more on the fence about Loki. The solution seems obvious from where I'm sitting.

(Moreover, we have a lot more to go off of with what Loki will "be about", and its expected tone, than we ever did about WandaVision - which was purposefully obfuscated in its trailers and promotional material.)

[Anteros]

I just don't understand this


And this



In the same post.

Don't watch it then. You just said you are burn out on Marvel, why not just give yourself a pause and just wait until the season ends so you can check if it's worth your time, or you might just get even more tired of Marvel?

You are doing a disservice to a show if you force yourself to watch it while you aren't excited for it, while you are tired of its genre and you outright claim you don't like what the trailer showed you so far. THESE ARE ALL THE FLAGS MAN. Don't watch it.

I'm burnt out on Marvel, but I do like the character Loki. Thus the source of my conflict. I also don't need some random stranger on the internet policing my watching habits, or telling me my opinions are invalid. Thanks though.

I'll give the show a try because it costs me literally nothing to do so, except a tiny time investment that I would be using to watch some other mediocre show. I won't know for sure if it's good or bad until I at least try it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being willing to experience things you aren't a blind fanboy for, or going in with measured expectations.


Second this. Find something you want to do and do that instead. It’s entertainment, not groceries; you can put it off as long as you want. Odds are the show will still be there in six months, with the added bonus that you’d have the option of binge-watching it if you decide you want to watch it then.

Spoken like an introvert, or at the very least someone without kids or a significant other. Real life isn't that simple. Personally, I would rather read a book or the internet or virtually anything besides television, but watching television has become a social activity in the modern era. The television is going to be playing for a significant portion of the day when other people are around even if I don't turn it on. There's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on shows that could be potentially interesting even if I'm skeptical that they'll be good. If nothing else, the kids are going to want to try it just because it has Marvel on the nameplate.

[BloodSquirrel]

But waiting on WandaVision because you were on the fence about it, and ultimately deciding it wasn't for you, turned out fine.

A game of Russian Roulette turns out fine 5/6 of the time.

[Psyren]

A game of Russian Roulette turns out fine 5/6 of the time.

What a great analogy! Missing a television show is indeed comparable to a bullet to the head :smalltongue:

[BloodSquirrel]

What a great analogy! Missing a television show is indeed comparable to a bullet to the head :smalltongue:

So do you actually have a counter argument, or just dull sarcasm?

[Psyren]

So do you actually have a counter argument, or just dull sarcasm?

If anyone is so trapped by FOMO that they view the possibility of being spoiled before they can participate in online discourse about a show they don't even think they'll like as comparable to getting shot... then no, I don't imagine there's anything more I can really say to those people.

[Cikomyr2]

I'd add that FOMO is a fear driven by the feeling of lack of connection with other people.

We live in difficult times, making it very difficult to establish a connection with other people. Alienation is through the roof. But forcing yourself to watch a tv show is not the solution.

On the other hand, I am happy to say I just restarted watching hockey. No peticular reason.

[DigoDragon]

but I've enjoyed the D+ Marvel series enough to give this one some trust, and I'm sure Tom Hiddleston will be entertaining.

I agree here. WandaVision and (so far) Falcon/Winter Soldier are both really interesting shows, and with different angles. Plus yes, Tom is such a good actor that I'll be happy if he just hams his way through the show. XD

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Counterpoint: Spoilers and participating in the public conversation about it.

Counter-counterpoint for public conversation: on this very forum there are threads for Star Trek shows that have been out and over with for years.

Spoilers in my experience are usually only an issue for a short period of time before the first wave of discussion is over. Being an MCU work, one might run into more spoilers than usual as it ties into later works and may come up in discussion, but if you’re avoiding all Marvel stuff due to burnout, you’ll be avoiding those discussions too.

[BloodSquirrel]

If anyone is so trapped by FOMO that they view the possibility of being spoiled before they can participate in online discourse about a show they don't even think they'll like as comparable to getting shot... then no, I don't imagine there's anything more I can really say to those people.

This is really just a passive-aggressive way of saying "I have nothing to add to this conversation".

[Wraith]

Personally I loved all of it, from Daredevil and Punisher's grit to Ragnarok/Guardians' high flying space adventure.

Completely agree, don't get me wrong. I just feel that the Marvel TV shows tend to have a lot of key themes that are heavy and sometimes exhausting to sit through - racism in 'Falcon and Luke Cage, PTSD in 'Winter Soldier, Punisher and Wandavision, abandonment and loneliness in Daredevil and Iron Fist, etc - and it's a refreshing change to have something more lighthearted and fantastic in Loki. Variety, spice, and so on. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

This is really just a passive-aggressive way of saying "I have nothing to add to this conversation".

Irony, pots, kettles.

Anyway, back to the trailer: One detail I missed from the very first shot was the agent bringing Loki into the TVA was holding the Tesseract in her other hand. So that answers the "was it confiscated" question. But if they have the cube back, why do they still need him to fix the timeline? What's stopping them from simply popping him into a cell on the Raft, slipping the cube back to Fury (or Hydra, or Thor etc) and breaking for lunch?


Completely agree, don't get me wrong. I just feel that the Marvel TV shows tend to have a lot of key themes that are heavy and sometimes exhausting to sit through - racism in 'Falcon and Luke Cage, PTSD in 'Winter Soldier, Punisher and Wandavision, abandonment and loneliness in Daredevil and Iron Fist, etc - and it's a refreshing change to have something more lighthearted and fantastic in Loki. Variety, spice, and so on. :smallsmile:

Make no mistake, Loki is almost certainly going to explore some heavier theme too. Even Guardians and Ragnarok both explored heavy themes of fatherhood, legacy, chosen family over blood ties etc.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

PTSD in 'Winter Soldier, Punisher and Wandavision

And Iron Man 3.

...wait, where was it in Winter Soldier? Or do you mean FATWS not Captain America 2?

[Psyren]

And Iron Man 3.

...wait, where was it in Winter Soldier? Or do you mean FATWS not Captain America 2?

I don't know whether PTSD is the correct term, but IIRC Steve and Sam both bonded over their difficulty readjusting from active duty to civilian life.

[Rynjin]

The consequence of which will be: SOME OF THEM WON'T BE TO YOUR PERSONAL TASTE. And.. it's fine. I really disliked Legends of Tomorrow when I tried it out, but my GF tells me the show gets way better as it gets more light-hearted, so I might pick it up starting season 2 as I know she knows my tastes.

Doesn't make Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 a bad show. It just mean.. we all have our own preferences, and one of these days, one of the Marvel series just won't be catered to your taste. It's fine to skip **** people; Marvel's entire schtick is that you can skip stuff and still have a blast enjoying the things that are more your style.

No no; as a huge fan of the series I can come right out and say, season 1 is complete trash. It completely bastardizes Vandal Savage (who at no point feels like a real threat), and the cast is significantly weaker. Season 2 cuts the dead weight (the Hawkpeople and Rip Hunter) and replaces them with significantly better characters and an attitude of "Holy ****, can't believe we got a second season after that first one, let's go nuts there's clearly nothing that will get us cancelled now".

[Kitten Champion]

Anyway, back to the trailer: One detail I missed from the very first shot was the agent bringing Loki into the TVA was holding the Tesseract in her other hand. So that answers the "was it confiscated" question. But if they have the cube back, why do they still need him to fix the timeline? What's stopping them from simply popping him into a cell on the Raft, slipping the cube back to Fury (or Hydra, or Thor etc) and breaking for lunch?

My suspicion when I first watched the trailer is this is essentially going to be the plot to the 00's Marvel comic series Exiles. Which was people (largely Mutants but assorted others joined as it went on) erased from their own time-lines from various other universes are plucked up and drafted by a mysterious cosmic entity to fix cracks in the multiverse by intervening in certain events, all with the eventual promise of their own continued existence at the end of it. Sort of like Quantum Leap meets Sliders but with Marvel Superheroes, they go from one world to world correcting wrongs in hopes that each leap will get them home.

Basically, I think in this case that Loki's not fixing his mistakes specifically so much as having to deal with the generalized havoc of the timeline in exchange for leniency - and possibly his own continued existence past the events of Endgame - by near-omniscient time cops who need his brand of villainy to deal with some other Marvel thing that's out there in the cosmos that's been eluding them.

[Mordar]

If only they would have called him something...anything...other than Grandmaster :smallannoyed:


All I can say is that the vast majority of the movie audience loved him in that role. Maybe it ticked off some of the more hardcore comic fans, but eh.

I think this assumes facts not in evidence. Certainly many people liked him well enough, but "vast majority" and "loved" might be stretches.

I think it noteworthy that the creator of the character (Roy Thomas) wasn't thrilled with the portrayal, but I guess he's probably even more ignorable than those meaningless hardcore fans.

Also noteworthy, it appears this iteration of the Grandmaster might be in Love and Thunder, so clearly there is support.

Anyway, picking a character name that only "hardcore fans" would recognize and then making it a character/portrayal that those same fans would dislike doesn't seem like a good choice.


Anyway, back to the trailer: One detail I missed from the very first shot was the agent bringing Loki into the TVA was holding the Tesseract in her other hand. So that answers the "was it confiscated" question. But if they have the cube back, why do they still need him to fix the timeline? What's stopping them from simply popping him into a cell on the Raft, slipping the cube back to Fury (or Hydra, or Thor etc) and breaking for lunch?

I thought I saw that but once people mentioned not seeing it I assumed it was just something else blue and glowy.

My thought, though, is that the damage is done and the actor is the only one that can undo the damage they caused. He steals the Tesseract at Timepoint 1...creates the initial branching...continues to do stuff he shouldn't until Timepoint X when the TVA catches him. Now he has to fix the 9 branches he caused to set things back to right because of temporalbabble.

Plus who knows...maybe they use a device that slides through time and is less accurate the further they go, and they only have two charges...oh wait.

- M

[Wraith]

Make no mistake, Loki is almost certainly going to explore some heavier theme too. Even Guardians and Ragnarok both explored heavy themes of fatherhood, legacy, chosen family over blood ties etc.

I have no doubt that you are right, but rather the method in which they go about it. Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier was filmed in a specifically gritty style with lots of angst and people scowling in dark rooms, whereas Ragnarok had Thor discuss and come to terms with the loss of his hammer/family by talking to someone who made masturbation jokes in Taika Waititi's voice.
Heavy themes are fine, but it doesn't all have to be people suddenly waking up from flashbacks in a cold sweat, or tearfully stating that they thought they were friends with someone who had just betrayed them, for it to be explored effectively and that's what I'm hoping for from Loki.


...wait, where was it in Winter Soldier? Or do you mean FATWS not Captain America 2?

I did mean F&tWS if I hadn't made that clear, I beg your pardon.

[Psyren]

I have no doubt that you are right, but rather the method in which they go about it. Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier was filmed in a specifically gritty style with lots of angst and people scowling in dark rooms, whereas Ragnarok had Thor discuss and come to terms with the loss of his hammer/family by talking to someone who made masturbation jokes in Taika Waititi's voice.
Heavy themes are fine, but it doesn't all have to be people suddenly waking up from flashbacks in a cold sweat, or tearfully stating that they thought they were friends with someone who had just betrayed them, for it to be explored effectively and that's what I'm hoping for from Loki.

All right fair enough - though I'll point out that CA2 and T2 had levity too.



Anyway, picking a character name that only "hardcore fans" would recognize and then making it a character/portrayal that those same fans would dislike doesn't seem like a good choice.


Spinning gold from the relative straw of Marvel's obscura is kind of their thing though. Agatha Harkness, Karl(i) Morgenthau, the TVA, none of these are mainstream names. Reimagining the Grandmaster for a broader audience is neither the first nor the last time such an event will occur.



Plus who knows...maybe they use a device that slides through time and is less accurate the further they go, and they only have two charges...oh wait.


I'm guessing this is a reference to something, but it went over my head.

[Palanan]

So, back to the actual trailer....

Do we know who this is doing the fancy combat spinning?

And here I’m getting a strong Pompeii vibe. What could Loki possibly need to fix at Pompeii? Is there an obscure Marvel plotline about Pompeii not erupting?

Because let's face it, Loki would be quite happy with deliberately setting off an eruption. And in that snippet he looks very pleased with himself.

[Mordar]

So, back to the actual trailer....

Do we know who this is doing the fancy combat spinning?

And here I’m getting a strong Pompeii vibe. What could Loki possibly need to fix at Pompeii? Is there an obscure Marvel plotline about Pompeii not erupting?

Because let's face it, Loki would be quite happy with deliberately setting off an eruption. And in that snippet he looks very pleased with himself.

Renslayer?

Rewatching I caught the "We need your unique Loki perspective" line...which still leads me to believe the reason the TVA needs Loki to fix the mess is because he made it. Aside from needing him to have a show.

- M

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mordar
I thought I saw that but once people mentioned not seeing it I assumed it was just something else blue and glowy.

Looked very much like the Tesseract to me.

How does anyone get an infinity stone away from an Asgardian? Why couldn't Loki just do his swooshy-hands thing and hide it in his private hammerspace?

[soises]

I am psyched for the series! :)

[Mordar]

Looked very much like the Tesseract to me.

How does anyone get an infinity stone away from an Asgardian? Why couldn't Loki just do his swooshy-hands thing and hide it in his private hammerspace?

Definitely. I wasn't sure I was remembering it properly, but when I watched again, I am sure.

I totally thought that your second line was the set up for a joke, given how many they have lost.

Wait for them to drop it. It'll happen when they catch the Idiot Ball.

- M

[Cikomyr2]

I dunnow. Maybe we will learn that Loki who was killed by Thanos was actually a timeline double :-D

[dps]

I think this assumes facts not in evidence. Certainly many people liked him well enough, but "vast majority" and "loved" might be stretches

FWIW, I'm not particularly a fan of either Goldblum or Wilson. I don't think I've ever seen Wilson in a role in which he was wasn't basically just playing Owen Wilson as opposed to actually acting (though of course I might have missed something), and
while I would agree that Goldblum is a better actor than that, since Jurassic Park he's been mostly content to just do Jeff Goldblum shtick. OTOH, in the trailer it looks like Wilson is being less Owen Wilson-y than usual, so we'll see.

[Splinterverse]

I can't wait to see this! It looks so good. Hiddleston is the BOMB!

[Palanan]

A brief but important announcement from Tom:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNyLzc3MU_E

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Wednesday seems like an odd choice. :smallconfused: Are they trying to keep from crashing the Disney+ servers?

[Cikomyr2]

Wednesday seems like an odd choice. :smallconfused: Are they trying to keep from crashing the Disney+ servers?

Because Loki wants to be a good son, and release his new episodes on Odin's Day

[baraton]

I hope so much for this series that it will not work as well as with The Witcher that expectations will be exaggerated and it will turn out average (forgive me, fans of the series, this is just my opinion).

[Cikomyr2]

I hope so much for this series that it will not work as well as with The Witcher that expectations will be exaggerated and it will turn out average (forgive me, fans of the series, this is just my opinion).

I hated the Witcher because the disjointed structure had no story purpose, and no easy cue to follow. I don't see what was gained in making the time changes so opaque.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Wednesday seems like an odd choice.

Agreed, not sure what the logic is. My only guess is that they might be releasing Bad Batch episodes on Friday morning, and to avoid overlap they’re releasing Loki on Wednesdays.

Or maybe they’re just playing up Loki’s role as the god of mischief? But there’s probably a more solid rationale besides that.


Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
Because Loki wants to be a good son, and release his new episodes on Odin's Day

Playground needs a like button.

:smalltongue:

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Playground needs a like button.

Second this. If that isn’t the real, official explanation it should be.

[Psyren]

I'd prefer Friday to Wednesday personally but I'm not too fussed either way.


Wednesday seems like an odd choice. :smallconfused: Are they trying to keep from crashing the Disney+ servers?


Because Loki wants to be a good son, and release his new episodes on Odin's Day


Second this. If that isn’t the real, official explanation it should be.

My theory is that, with everything steadily reopening, people will start doing things after work on a Friday again by the time June rolls around, and thus have less time to watch these as they debut if they keep a start-of-the-weekend slot. I'm certain that one of the many, many engagement metrics they're capturing around use of their service is how soon after an episode debuts people tend to put it on. WandaVision and FATWS likely provided a decent baseline as far as "what does that Mean-Time-To-Watch look like if people have nothing else to do at the start of their weekend?"

[Cikomyr2]

I'd prefer Friday to Wednesday personally but I'm not too fussed either way.







My theory is that, with everything steadily reopening, people will start doing things after work on a Friday again by the time June rolls around, and thus have less time to watch these as they debut if they keep a start-of-the-weekend slot. I'm certain that one of the many, many engagement metrics they're capturing around use of their service is how soon after an episode debuts people tend to put it on. WandaVision and FATWS likely provided a decent baseline as far as "what does that Mean-Time-To-Watch look like if people have nothing else to do at the start of their weekend?"

That's Doylist reason. Get out of here you philistine!

[Ramza00]

I hated the Witcher because the disjointed structure had no story purpose, and no easy cue to follow. I don't see what was gained in making the time changes so opaque.

Well that is an easy one to answer. The Witcher were originally short stories, and only later we got longer novels after two short stories collections were published. Furthermore the Witcher character at the start is a personality antithetical to the author, yet we see him change slowly by his journeys and how he will be different than the butcher we first see him as.

When we are told stories we often adopt the rules and expectations of previous stories where we expect a certain style by the work. We expect a different style with themes with an oral story that completes by the end of the night, told over a campfire. We expect a different style with themes over a long book that is not short stories but is a long narrative told over several nights.

We expect a person’s life to end up somewhere at the end of the journey is an expectation we impart without realizing it.

Metaphor time, we expect a paper knife to be used for certain purposes for its form was crafted before it was created, then that form was made and was used for that intended purpose. But humans are not paper knives, and Witcher’s are humans, even if they have two different type of swords to slay monsters. With a paper knife as an object it’s essence precedes their existence (its form preceded its creation, its form preceded how it was being used) but with human subjects unlike objects everything is reversed where existence precedes its essence. Humans we exist, and thus we can choose what we do, and we can rebel against the way we form and we can choose different paths. Existentialism Is a Humanism as a philosopher once said.

—————

Telling the stories out of order besides mimicking the short stories introduce us to the constant of the story first. The constant is not Gerald of Rivera and his relationships. No the constant is his job, the racism of the world, how people treat the other races, how people treat The Witchers as people with all these awful racial prejudices, etc.

Getting through this backlog of non sequential timeline and establishing the world will give the creators more freedom to tell Gerald’s story. By not following the rules of traditional story craft you can tell a different style of story.

[Talakeal]

My suspicion when I first watched the trailer is this is essentially going to be the plot to the 00's Marvel comic series Exiles. Which was people (largely Mutants but assorted others joined as it went on) erased from their own time-lines from various other universes are plucked up and drafted by a mysterious cosmic entity to fix cracks in the multiverse by intervening in certain events, all with the eventual promise of their own continued existence at the end of it. Sort of like Quantum Leap meets Sliders but with Marvel Superheroes, they go from one world to world correcting wrongs in hopes that each leap will get them home.

Basically, I think in this case that Loki's not fixing his mistakes specifically so much as having to deal with the generalized havoc of the timeline in exchange for leniency - and possibly his own continued existence past the events of Endgame - by near-omniscient time cops who need his brand of villainy to deal with some other Marvel thing that's out there in the cosmos that's been eluding them.

I would think so to, but its going to be really hard to do anything like that on a TV budget without any of the big name actors from the MCU willing to make a cameo.

I would be looking forward to this show a lot more if it were a movie.

[Psyren]

I would think so to, but its going to be really hard to do anything like that on a TV budget without any of the big name actors from the MCU willing to make a cameo.

I would be looking forward to this show a lot more if it were a movie.

1) If it's multiverse shenanigans, they can easily include characters we haven't seen yet without needing to explain their origins or where they were during the Infinity Saga as thoroughly. Think Mysterio's made-up backstory from FFH, but played straight.

2) Given that we literally saw them bring in Don Cheadle for a 2 minute chat and Evan Peters for a d**k joke, I don't think we have to worry too much about Phase 4's cameo potential.


That's Doylist reason. Get out of here you philistine!

I do like both dammit :smalltongue:
But I do tend to default to Doylist where it can be deduced.

[Cikomyr2]

Well that is an easy one to answer. The Witcher were originally short stories, and only later we got longer novels after two short stories collections were published. Furthermore the Witcher character at the start is a personality antithetical to the author, yet we see him change slowly by his journeys and how he will be different than the butcher we first see him as.

When we are told stories we often adopt the rules and expectations of previous stories where we expect a certain style by the work. We expect a different style with themes with an oral story that completes by the end of the night, told over a campfire. We expect a different style with themes over a long book that is not short stories but is a long narrative told over several nights.

We expect a person’s life to end up somewhere at the end of the journey is an expectation we impart without realizing it.

Metaphor time, we expect a paper knife to be used for certain purposes for its form was crafted before it was created, then that form was made and was used for that intended purpose. But humans are not paper knives, and Witcher’s are humans, even if they have two different type of swords to slay monsters. With a paper knife as an object it’s essence precedes their existence (its form preceded its creation, its form preceded how it was being used) but with human subjects unlike objects everything is reversed where existence precedes its essence. Humans we exist, and thus we can choose what we do, and we can rebel against the way we form and we can choose different paths. Existentialism Is a Humanism as a philosopher once said.

—————

Telling the stories out of order besides mimicking the short stories introduce us to the constant of the story first. The constant is not Gerald of Rivera and his relationships. No the constant is his job, the racism of the world, how people treat the other races, how people treat The Witchers as people with all these awful racial prejudices, etc.

Getting through this backlog of non sequential timeline and establishing the world will give the creators more freedom to tell Gerald’s story. By not following the rules of traditional story craft you can tell a different style of story.

You know hwat? My bad. I shouldn't have said that in this thread. We could discuss it, and you make good point, but I don't want to hijack the conversation. Sorry.

[Rynjin]

Playground needs a like button.

:smalltongue:

I know it's a joke but...ew no. The lack of like/dislike buttons and similar social media features is part of why this site is still a cut above the rest of the internet.

[Kitten Champion]

I would think so to, but its going to be really hard to do anything like that on a TV budget without any of the big name actors from the MCU willing to make a cameo.


If the focus is on repairing the time-stream or whatever, they can simply Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban-it and not have him meaningfully interact with any important MCU characters for the sake of temporal continuity or whatever. They can also do the tried and tested Forrest Gump-insert-your-character-into-older-footage trick if they want to reference a specific point in the movies. Also, yeah, like Psyren said, it's Disney, they can pay for the cameos if need be.

Still, I should point out because I was being unclear, I don't think this is the eXiles in the sense that he's going to be travelling the multiverse. It's possible, I suppose, given the next MCU Spider-Man film is likely to have multi-verse as an important plot element and the Doctor Strange sequel is on the horizon -- it's just not what's presented in the trailer. What I do think is he's going to be traveling through time after being press-ganged into helping cosmic-level temporal continuity cops in exchange for not being erased from all existence as a remnant of an altered time-line.

My point was also that - like with eXiles - I think Loki's not clearing up his mistakes specifically, but resolving whatever crisis that could lead these nigh omniscient time-cops to seek the outside help of someone nefarious like Loki in the first place. Which, I would also guess, we'll learn at some point is all the plot of yet another Marvel villain. Whose identity I couldn't hazard to guess, but I can't imagine there not being one.

[Psyren]

I know it's a joke but...ew no. The lack of like/dislike buttons and similar social media features is part of why this site is still a cut above the rest of the internet.

Yeah, this. (Actual moderation helps too)



My point was also that - like with eXiles - I think Loki's not clearing up his mistakes specifically, but resolving whatever crisis that could lead these nigh omniscient time-cops to seek the outside help of someone nefarious like Loki in the first place. Which, I would also guess, we'll learn at some point is all the plot of yet another Marvel villain. Whose identity I couldn't hazard to guess, but I can't imagine there not being one.

My money's on Kang :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

My money's on Kang :smalltongue:

The problem there is they announced Jonathan Majors being cast as Kang around when Loki had already finalized its production.

Incidentally, this is the Wikipedia plot summary --


After stealing the Tesseract during the events of Avengers: Endgame (2019), an alternate version of Loki is brought to the mysterious Time Variance Authority (TVA), a bureaucratic organization that exists outside of time and space and monitors the timeline. They give Loki a choice: face being deleted from existence due to being a "time variant", or help fix the timeline and stop a greater threat. Loki ends up trapped in his own crime thriller, traveling through time and altering human history

Which is a less obtuse way of saying what I was thinking they were going with this.

[Magic_Hat]

Who is that cartoon, clock guy/gal/character?

https://i.redd.it/dg5zhxuc6py61.jpg

[Starbuck_II]

Cartoon mascot or they go to cartoon multiverse.
Like the spider-ham in Miles's Into the Spiderverse movie?

[Rynjin]

10 to 1 it's a one-off character from the first episode where they make Loki watch some kind of training video or "this is how time aberrations work" dealy and Owen Wilson keeps making him sit down every time he exclaims about how it's stupid and tries to leave.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Dunno, but it’s at 0:58 on the trailer, behind bars on the TV screen.

[Magic_Hat]

Dunno, but it’s at 0:58 on the trailer, behind bars on the TV screen.

I just noticed that cartoon character has sixteen (I guess) notches on it. So I guess it can't be a clock as our time system (specifically hours in a day) is based off twelve...unless it's a weird alien time system, but why would they be so needlessly eccentric especially now? I mean, they have extraterrestrials who speak English.

[The Glyphstone]

It'd hardly be the first time a cartoon mascot wasn't exactly photo-realistic, even just on Earth.

[Magic_Hat]

It'd hardly be the first time a cartoon mascot wasn't exactly photo-realistic, even just on Earth.

Could you cite a precedent?

[Rodin]

Could you cite a precedent?

...All of them? Seriously, name a photrealistic cartoon mascot. Just one.

If you want a counter-example, I picked the first one that came into my head - Tony the Tiger. He walks on his hind legs, has much larger eyes than a regular tiger, has opposable thumbs, has only 4 fingers/toes on said hand, he walks on his hind legs...and that's just the blatantly obvious stuff after 5 seconds of looking at him.

[Talakeal]

...All of them? Seriously, name a photrealistic cartoon mascot. Just one.

If you want a counter-example, I picked the first one that came into my head - Tony the Tiger. He walks on his hind legs, has much larger eyes than a regular tiger, has opposable thumbs, has only 4 fingers/toes on said hand, he walks on his hind legs...and that's just the blatantly obvious stuff after 5 seconds of looking at him.

And a blue nose.

[Psyren]

Think Mysterio's made-up backstory from FFH, but played straight.

Well, I had the right idea but the wrong vehicle for it (https://movieweb.com/doctor-strange-multiversal-madness-cast-list-earth-616/) apparently!

[The Glyphstone]

Captain Crunch has never been depicted with four gold bars on his sleeve either, the appropriate rank insignia for a naval captain.

[JadedDM]

Apparently, her name is Miss Minutes (https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Miss_Minutes).

[The Glyphstone]

...Why is she considered an American citizen?

[Starbuck_II]

Does that mean she was "born" in America", talks with "American slang" or is she the American embassy thing?

[Bartmanhomer]

I can't wait for the Loki show. :biggrin:

[Ramza00]

New elevator short clip is out for Loki

[Bartmanhomer]

So I guess that Loki is still going to be the supervillain in his show. :smile:

[Psyren]

So I guess that Loki is still going to be the supervillain in his show. :smile:

"Antihero" would be my guess, even though we're starting with a more evil variant.

[Cikomyr2]

So I guess that Loki is still going to be the supervillain in his show. :smile:

Villain protagonist?

[Clertar]

Trickster protagonist :smallwink:

And a neat way of getting the Loki from the alternate timeline into the main MCU timeline for future mischief---maybe in Thor 4.

[Ramza00]

So Loki 1st episode drops in a week and a few hours change.

And what does the older brother do? He upstages him, for Chris Hemsworth and Taika Waititi (Director but also the rock guy Korg) announced Thor Love and Thunder has finished filming, they took a picture and it will be out in May 2022.

[Sholos]

How is making an announcement for an upcoming movie a week before the show starts upstaging? Not like they dropped the announcement the day of.

[NulliusinVerba]

"Antihero" would be my guess, even though we're starting with a more evil variant.

Yeah, I'm with you here. Pretty sure that 'antihero' is the perfect label for this version of Loki, given what we've seen in the trailers so far.

[Ramza00]

How is making an announcement for an upcoming movie a week before the show starts upstaging? Not like they dropped the announcement the day of.

Have you ever had a sibling rivalry? :smalltongue:

[Sholos]

It's still not upstaging. The announcement doesn't conflict with anything.

[Ramza00]

It's still not upstaging. The announcement doesn't conflict with anything.

I did not think of it at the time but this should have been in a blue text for it was tongue in cheek.


So Loki 1st episode drops in a week and a few hours change.

And what does the older brother do? He upstages him, for Chris Hemsworth and Taika Waititi (Director but also the rock guy Korg) announced Thor Love and Thunder has finished filming, they took a picture and it will be out in May 2022.

But yes Loki and Thor have a sibling rivalry thing that is not their fault it just happened. See Nebula and Gamora , from Guardians 2 of how this type of relationship occurs.

Thus even when Thor does nothing wrong it still can feel like he is taking all the spotlight from Loki. Also this does not excuse Loki from being a weasel dipped in grease.

[Mordar]

I did not think of it at the time but this should have been in a blue text for it was tongue in cheek.



But yes Loki and Thor have a sibling rivalry thing that is not their fault it just happened. See Nebula and Gamora , from Guardians 2 of how this type of relationship occurs.

Thus even when Thor does nothing wrong it still can feel like he gets all the spotlight to Loki. Also this does not excuse Loki from being a weasel dipped in grease.

I'm with you Ramza00. This is totally thunder-stealing..."Oh, your little TV show starts next week? Great job, kid. Here's something fans really want...[moviehype]...now go wash my car!"

- M

[Ramza00]

3 days till Loki
33 days till Black Widow
89 days till Shang Chi

[The Glyphstone]

I'm with you Ramza00. This is totally thunder-stealing..."Oh, your little TV show starts next week? Great job, kid. Here's something fans really want...[moviehype]...now go wash my car!"

- M

I see what you did there...

[Psyren]

Episode 1 is out! There is a LOT to unpack here, but I'll just stick to going back through some of my predictions for now:



They're not completely reset. Gamora got the rundown on what she missed from GoodNebula, the sister she always wanted. And Loki is getting it from authority figures that have studied his entire life. The important thing, in both cases, is that they believe the folks who tell them about the people they became that first go-round.

Does that mean character-wise they'll both end up exactly where their prime timeline versions ended up, no - but the capacity for character development that led both of them to where they got to is still there. That's all that is needed for their journeys in this iteration to feel organic, credible, and end somewhere north of total villain, just like they did the first time through.

This one ended up true. Mobius (Owen Wilson) played Loki his "Greatest Hits" file and it connected with him quite strongly, so much so that he willingly decided to take the job offer at the TVA once he went back and watched the whole thing. Learning that he was/would be actually the one responsible for Frigga's death, that Odin and Thor did truly love him and he loved them in return, and of course, his ignominious death at Thanos' hands, and his cosmic purpose (see below) ended up being the most effective way to bring him more in line with the outlook of Loki Prime in a hurry.


The Avengers didn't muck around though, they returned the stones to where and when they found them. I'm guessing Loki didn't, and that's what got their attention.

Come to think of it - his Tesseract hasn't made an appearance in any of the trailers. Keep in mind that that thing was powerful enough to make a Captain Marvel. Did he... lose it? Did the TVA confiscate it?



Anyway, back to the trailer: One detail I missed from the very first shot was the agent bringing Loki into the TVA was holding the Tesseract in her other hand. So that answers the "was it confiscated" question. But if they have the cube back, why do they still need him to fix the timeline? What's stopping them from simply popping him into a cell on the Raft, slipping the cube back to Fury (or Hydra, or Thor etc) and breaking for lunch?

Okay, so we got an answer to this one. Short version, the Infinity Stones don't mean squat to these guys, and they don't even function in the TVA. The Timekeepers appear to be operating on Living Tribunal ends of the power scale, as further evidenced by the three faces on the wall in the courtroom. Furthermore we learned that "everything that happened with Thanos was supposed to happen" in part because "they (the superheroes) needed to level up" - or as Mobius put it, "achieve their best versions of themselves" - and fast. This apparently was Loki Prime's cosmic role to play, as without the original Avengers we probably wouldn't have the heroes we'd need to face off against whatever the Bigger Fish is going to be in the next Saga.

This of course begs the question of what the hell could be out there that is scaring the TVA enough to enlist a variant into their ranks - more on that below.


Make no mistake, Loki is almost certainly going to explore some heavier theme too. Even Guardians and Ragnarok both explored heavy themes of fatherhood, legacy, chosen family over blood ties etc.

Given the villain mentioned at the end, this one is definitely going to be true. Mobius believes it to be Loki himself causing trouble, some darker variant of him - presumably one that achieved all the Glorious Purpose aims that both the original and the protagonist of this series thought they were striving for - and became some kind of time murderer as a result? Oh, and speaking of villains:



My money's on Kang :smalltongue:

Looking like this won't be the case, however there are definitely Kang-adjacent characters already appearing in this one. And another Lovecraft Country alumnus in the MCU :smallbiggrin:


All in all, I'm excited with where this one is going, and I think they got most of the heavy worldbuilding out of the way in this first ep. I'm sure there were dozens of references I missed, I'll be waiting anxiously for the "Easter Eggs and References" videos from my usual stable of YouTubers.

[Clertar]

Looking like this won't be the case, however there are definitely Kang-adjacent characters already appearing in this one.






Are you sure you didn't mean Mefisto? ;P

But I'll call my own long guess: Moebius will be revealed to be another Loki variant :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

If you like a speech that occurred in the 1st episode of Loki, there is a similar one in My Drag Brunch with Loki (2019) which is a short story (only 10 pages)

in War of the Realms: War Scrolls (2019) issue #2,

It has 3 short stories in this $2 comic (probably more if you want a physical copy now a days, but it is still available digitally), one of them is about Loki and it is a good character story of what drives him. It is part of the event but the key aspect of a good short story is to see the inner reveal that a character conceals vis the image, drag after all is about reveals and conceals when one does a performance. 🎭

[Psyren]

Are you sure you didn't mean Mefisto? ;P

But I'll call my own long guess: Moebius will be revealed to be another Loki variant :smallbiggrin:



OW's character is from the comics, dating back to the 90s (interestingly, a Fantastic Four antagonist) - so while that's possible, I'm not so sure.

As for the... other name you mentioned...

You might be on to something; there was another hint in that direction in the stained glass window at the crime scene. Perhaps Vile!Loki ends up becoming Mephisto, or some analogue thereof?

[Millstone85]

So, I know that show writers refuse to be consistent with their time-travel mechanics, but let's pretend they care.

It looks like Captain America's trip to return the alternate infinity stones to their respective universes was all for nothing, since the TVA's main mission is to nuke such universes shortly after their inceptions.
To add insult to injury, a few probably ended up being used as paperweights.

[Ramza00]

Agrees with Millstone85 but I am going to make an argument I do not agree with


The stones need to be returned by Steve Roger or else they would have phenomenal cosmic power to affect the Prime Timeline. Roger could do things like end hunger and so on with the stones, the power of D&D wish is at his command.

Now the same tools to prune timelines could probably be used to remove the infinity stones from Steve Rogers or another Avenger. After all every hero has to sleep, or the stones are stored in a vault, and thus the TVA could use the teleportation time doors to quickly appear when Steve is asleep and defeat him with 16x time for even if the Infinity Stones are all powerful an element of surprise is all you need to take 1 or more stones as evident by Infinity War and Endgame.

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Thus Steve had to return the stones for playing with 9th level spell effects just destabilizes the story realm. You have to put the toys back in the toy box, and clean up the sandpit where previous sandcastles were built.

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That is the logic, and I do not entirely agree with it. I feel that is an "easy out" and you made a mistake and we just have to accept it while you do your improv set and you do "and next" to quickly move our attention away from it.

Or you could have planned the whole thing out in the first place :smalltongue: and not introduce powers you know are way to powerful in the first place. Why did you choose the time travel rules that was chosen, why did we make Endgame into a time travel plot. People can disagree is my point here.

[Psyren]

So, I know that show writers refuse to be consistent with their time-travel mechanics, but let's pretend they care.

It looks like Captain America's trip to return the alternate infinity stones to their respective universes was all for nothing, since the TVA's main mission is to nuke such universes shortly after their inceptions.
To add insult to injury, a few probably ended up being used as paperweights.

I'm not sure what you mean by "their respective universes." He returned them to HIS/THIS universe. Thor 2 Asgard, Avengers 1 New York, Guardians 1 Morag, all were/are part of the Sacred Timeline. By returning them, he kept it that way, which is exactly what kept the TVA happy. Had he not done so and decided to, I dunno, get greedy and run off with all of them - that's likely what would have earned him a visit from Mobius/Hunter and crew.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So…

I’m guessing by the end of this season the TVA gets nuked to Oblivion by their own timeline-resetters, thus wiping them out of existence and bringing back the multiverse?

[Psyren]

So…

I’m guessing by the end of this season the TVA gets nuked to Oblivion by their own timeline-resetters, thus wiping them out of existence and bringing back the multiverse?

That does seem to be what the Big Bad is collecting, though we don't know why.

[Millstone85]

I'm not sure what you mean by "their respective universes." He returned them to HIS/THIS universe. Thor 2 Asgard, Avengers 1 New York, Guardians 1 Morag, all were/are part of the Sacred Timeline. By returning them, he kept it that way, which is exactly what kept the TVA happy. Had he not done so and decided to, I dunno, get greedy and run off with all of them - that's likely what would have earned him a visit from Mobius/Hunter and crew.If his goal was to make the Sacred Timeline feel like nothing happened, Cap would need to find a way to:

put the mind stone back into the scepter.
put the space stone back into the tesseract.
put the reality stone back into Jane Foster (lol).
give the soul stone back to the Red Skull (awkward).
give the time stone back to the Ancient One (except that's also where Loki1130 is from).
and for the power stone, fix the issue with Guardians-1 Thanos having travelled to and died in the future.

See some of these issues in animated form. (https://youtu.be/4vjs_0CoRs4)

No, the Ancient One asked the Avengers to return the stones for the sake of the alternate universes they were creating, that's all.

[Ramza00]

If his goal was to make the Sacred Timeline feel like nothing happened, Cap would need to find a way to:

put the mind stone back into the scepter.
put the space stone back into the tesseract.
put the reality stone back into Jane Foster (lol).
give the soul stone back to the Red Skull (awkward).
give the time stone back to the Ancient One (except that's also where Loki1130 is from).
and for the power stone, fix the issue with Guardians-1 Thanos having travelled to and died in the future.

See some of these issues in animated form. (https://youtu.be/4vjs_0CoRs4)

No, the Ancient One asked the Avengers to return the stones for the sake of the alternate universes they were creating, that's all.

All that is easy to do if Stephen Strange taught the apple trick to Steve Rogers (same trick with The Vision and Thanos in IW). Use the time stone to reverse the flow of time on just one object.

The hard one is Loki1130, but we are going to hand wave that for the MCU is do not think too hard with continuity.

[Millstone85]

All that is easy to do if Stephen Strange taught the apple trick to Steve Rogers (same trick with The Vision and Thanos in IW). Use the time stone to reverse the flow of time on just one object.You think that Strange taught Rogers some infinity-stone sorcery 101? And offscreen at that? Shirley you jest.

[Dire_Flumph]

You think that Strange taught Rogers some infinity-stone sorcery 101? And offscreen at that? Shirley you jest.

Definitely not canon, but my assumption was that Endgame-Steve's first stop on the "Put the infinity stones back" tour was 2012 New York the day after the Chitauri Invasion to ask for the Ancient One's help.

[Ramza00]

Names


“I am Loki of Asgard, and I am burdened with glorious purpose.”

Anyone notice the Judge calls Loki by the name Loki Laufeyson, while almost all instances of Loki after the first movie he does not call himself Laufeyson or Odinson, but instead Loki of Asgard and various variants. (There are a few exceptions based off specific contexts where Loki feels closer to Odin at the moment. But that is getting side track.)

I am 45% sure this is going to come up again, for Loki does not like it when people call him a name he does not self adopt, much like a disguise. Loki is Mercurial in Mood, but there are certain things that get him quick to anger.

[Clertar]

Names



Anyone notice the Judge calls Loki by the name Loki Laufeyson



I was thinking that this might be subtly setting up the scene for the rogue Loki---maybe that one has embraced more his ice giant lineage? He does have a blue mouth, according to the girl (but maybe he just eats a lot of that candy?).

Speaking of that girl, that fake-ass medieval church was a big production F for me on an otherwise very nice episode.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If his goal was to make the Sacred Timeline feel like nothing happened, Cap would need to find a way to:

put the mind stone back into the scepter.
put the space stone back into the tesseract.
put the reality stone back into Jane Foster (lol).
give the soul stone back to the Red Skull (awkward).
give the time stone back to the Ancient One (except that's also where Loki1130 is from).
and for the power stone, fix the issue with Guardians-1 Thanos having travelled to and died in the future.

See some of these issues in animated form. (https://youtu.be/4vjs_0CoRs4)

No, the Ancient One asked the Avengers to return the stones for the sake of the alternate universes they were creating, that's all.

Well given the access to more Pym Particles he could have had all the extra equipment shrunken and in his pockets.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Well given the access to more Pym Particles he could have had all the extra equipment shrunken and in his pockets.

Thank you. I am adopting this as head-canon. That has bothered me every single time I watched Endgame.

[Millstone85]

Okay guys, but take a look back at the Ancient One's exposition:

"If I give up the time stone to help your reality, I am dooming my own. The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones, and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one not so much. In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions would suffer."

https://upload.bitfeed.co/5dd2eaf074eb8-Avengers-Endgame-Ancient-One-Time-Travel (https://youtu.be/RNBKKGM1w88?t=48)

Now, granted, when Banner proposes to return the stones, the dark timeline disappears from the Ancient One's holographic presentation, which now shows only one bright timeline.

But I think that only works if the Avengers manage to quietly remove and return the stones, which is far from what happened.

To me, the timeline did split, but the Avengers made sure the new reality would have all the stones it needed to resist the forces of darkness.

[Tyndmyr]

So, first episode.

It is...somewhat less surprising of a premise than Wandavision was, but more so than Falcon & Winter Buddies. Overall, neither immensely in love or hate with it yet, but sufficiently interested enough to watch a second episode and see where they take it.

More spoilery plot discussion below, of course:

So, the TVA is kind of a fun premise in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen Umbrella Academy, and this is quite literally a knock off of 'em. This show is leaning pretty hard on what came before, to the extent of including...a very large amount of flashback for a pilot episode. I sort of get this in that honestly we can't expect people to remember Dark World, etc in detail, but it makes the pacing feel a bit slower if you do.

Loki is of course fun when he gets to actually chew the screen as a villain, and he gets to do that...a little. He also ends up being the butt of a number of jokes, many of which are essentially replays of old pratfalls from the films. Liked seeing Loki falling in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing Thor get electrocuted in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing a control collar fitted on Thor to basically enslave him? Guess what...

Owen Wilson is a really odd casting choice. His voice is really distinctive, and thus brings to mind his usual sort of character which is...honestly kind of reflected in this, but not wholly? It seems kind of...not fitting. Perhaps intentional, don't know yet.

However, the villain also being Loki is...a fun idea. I'm pretty on board with the idea of seeing a Loki v Loki confrontation.

As for how time travel or what this series does to magic v tech...honestly, I have no idea. I think MCU just decided that consistency here wasn't something they cared about anymore?

[Ramza00]

Magic vs Tech and other things, that seem "so familiar"



So, first episode.

So, the TVA is kind of a fun premise in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen Umbrella Academy, and this is quite literally a knock off of 'em. This show is leaning pretty hard on what came before, to the extent of including...a very large amount of flashback for a pilot episode. I sort of get this in that honestly we can't expect people to remember Dark World, etc in detail, but it makes the pacing feel a bit slower if you do.

Loki is of course fun when he gets to actually chew the screen as a villain, and he gets to do that...a little. He also ends up being the butt of a number of jokes, many of which are essentially replays of old pratfalls from the films. Liked seeing Loki falling in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing Thor get electrocuted in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing a control collar fitted on Thor to basically enslave him? Guess what...

Owen Wilson is a really odd casting choice. His voice is really distinctive, and thus brings to mind his usual sort of character which is...honestly kind of reflected in this, but not wholly? It seems kind of...not fitting. Perhaps intentional, don't know yet.

However, the villain also being Loki is...a fun idea. I'm pretty on board with the idea of seeing a Loki v Loki confrontation.

As for how time travel or what this series does to magic v tech...honestly, I have no idea. I think MCU just decided that consistency here wasn't something they cared about anymore?

We are going to see lots that is "familiar" for we are going to see lots of similar images to stuff that came before. You mentioned Umbrella Academy which I have not seen (how is it?), but might as well add Doctor Who to that list and and a whole host of other things.

Also since we are going to play around with Earth / Midgard time we are going to get more images, more mimetics / mimicry / memes / imitations and representations, of things we are already half-familiar with since via traveling through time in a fictional tv show is not literally seeing time as it actually was but instead seeing a time that is both familiar and alienating to us. All things presented in relation to our self / the director and other talent's idea of our pseudo-self.

Sidenote I take it this TVA deals with Earth / Midgard and there are similar TVA divisions for other planets? When Groot's plant people mess with time do the Hunters / Minutemen / Judge / etc look like Plant People?




Loki is of course fun when he gets to actually chew the screen as a villain, and he gets to do that...a little. He also ends up being the butt of a number of jokes, many of which are essentially replays of old pratfalls from the films. Liked seeing Loki falling in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing Thor get electrocuted in Thor Ragnarok? Well, we'll do that again. Liked seeing a control collar fitted on Thor to basically enslave him? Guess what...

Yep we are going to get lots of situational comedy in this tv show. Perhaps we can call Loki a "sitcom" though I do not think most people will use this term for it is not set at a diner, or a person's home, but hey wait a minute, hijacks at work is a common sitcom location 🧐 Hopefully Loki like Bebop mixes enough other "genres" in the story that it feels fresh and you get a mixture that feels fun instead of stale and overly familiar in a way that is not interesting.




Owen Wilson is a really odd casting choice. His voice is really distinctive, and thus brings to mind his usual sort of character which is...honestly kind of reflected in this, but not wholly? It seems kind of...not fitting. Perhaps intentional, don't know yet.

However, the villain also being Loki is...a fun idea. I'm pretty on board with the idea of seeing a Loki v Loki confrontation.

I had fun with the pilot, but it was completely carried by the Charm and Charisma of characters like Owen Wilson, Tom Hiddleston, Wunmi Mosaku (the police guard chasing Loki), etc. This is not a fault, this is just saying those characters breathe the script alive and make it "real."

I hope they are getting paid well for these 6 episodes of TV.




As for how time travel or what this series does to magic v tech...honestly, I have no idea. I think MCU just decided that consistency here wasn't something they cared about anymore?
My read of the TVA is that it is another plane of existence. We been told time flows differently there, also the infinity stones are inert in the TVA. Different rules of physics entirely in this place. Thus some things we call "magic" with a language word do not work for the physics of that reality says they do not work.

In addition besides having the Loki's God All-Speak, we also learn the TVA people can have languages downloaded into them. Thus what to call this thing is merely a Language Game. It is more about "understanding the rules" than actually finding the best word to speak the rules once you are familiar enough to speak it. But hey it is not just an inner conversation between Loki and the TVA it is also a meta conversation for us the audience on the other side of the 4th wall of the sitcom.

Oh as Psyren brought up on Page 4, the three space lizards as Loki calls them, the 3 timekeepers, may literally be The Living Tribunal, or just someone who plays in that multi-verse level of scale. The Living Tribunal in the comics is a true neutral god who is multi-versial and all powerful much like D&D's Ao in the Forgotten Realms. He does not have much agency, his job is to maintain some form of balance not just in a single universe but all universes and he is a universal constant between all the timelines and realms. Oh yeah this Ao like god has 3 heads, similar to some art of roman Janus. One looking to the left, the right, and right in front where a normal human face would be.

We do not know if the MCU Movie / Disney+ adaptions are adapting The Living Tribunal with The Time Keepers, or just another being who plays in the multiversal scale like the TLT god.

[Tyndmyr]

Re: Ramza:

Umbrella Academy is pretty fun, I think. Im going to get slightly more into it in the spoilers, so if you want to go into it completely blind, watch it first, but I'll try to avoid as many specifics as I can.




We are going to see lots that is "familiar" for we are going to see lots of similar images to stuff that came before. You mentioned Umbrella Academy which I have not seen (how is it?), but might as well add Doctor Who to that list and and a whole host of other things.

Nah, I don't mean just "shows that play with time travel tropes" I mean specifically a large bureaucracy (called the Temporal Commission, in UA's case) that has a mysterious plan for all of time organized by a small cabal in the know, and carried out by a bunch of obedient underlings who are based in an otherworldly massive headquarters with its own timeline, and dispatches small teams of agents to clean up events anywhere within time that diverge from the plan.

I mean, it is literally almost identical. To the point of using the same comedic sort of introductory expository mini-film in universe. It's unsettling how close it is. The only real difference is that UA has *far* more distinct characterization for members of this organization. But, flip side, it is episode 1, so that may develop.


Sidenote I take it this TVA deals with Earth / Midgard and there are similar TVA divisions for other planets? When Groot's plant people mess with time do the Hunters / Minutemen / Judge / etc look like Plant People?

Probably not, honestly. This seems...strangely earth centric, but they don't seem at all limited from a technological point. We don't see any appearance change to match earth cultures, though? And they only discuss earth events from their perspective, but are not surprised by Loki's discussion of the nine realms, and have data on him from outside earth? I don't want to call it a plot hole yet, because we've only seen one episode, but it seems as if they are not limited in any planetary fashion, and are yet still extremely earth centric. Perhaps it will be expanded on as we go.

[Eldan]

This... felt like a lot of setup with no payoff yet. Like, it was one very long exposition dump with not much happening yet. There were a few fun scenes, sure, but overall, I'm not more than cautiously optimistic. It's the Show telling us what it is going to be about, but not really starting yet.

[The Glyphstone]

Re: Ramza:

Umbrella Academy is pretty fun, I think. Im going to get slightly more into it in the spoilers, so if you want to go into it completely blind, watch it first, but I'll try to avoid as many specifics as I can.





Nah, I don't mean just "shows that play with time travel tropes" I mean specifically a large bureaucracy (called the Temporal Commission, in UA's case) that has a mysterious plan for all of time organized by a small cabal in the know, and carried out by a bunch of obedient underlings who are based in an otherworldly massive headquarters with its own timeline, and dispatches small teams of agents to clean up events anywhere within time that diverge from the plan.

I mean, it is literally almost identical. To the point of using the same comedic sort of introductory expository mini-film in universe. It's unsettling how close it is. The only real difference is that UA has *far* more distinct characterization for members of this organization. But, flip side, it is episode 1, so that may develop.



Probably not, honestly. This seems...strangely earth centric, but they don't seem at all limited from a technological point. We don't see any appearance change to match earth cultures, though? And they only discuss earth events from their perspective, but are not surprised by Loki's discussion of the nine realms, and have data on him from outside earth? I don't want to call it a plot hole yet, because we've only seen one episode, but it seems as if they are not limited in any planetary fashion, and are yet still extremely earth centric. Perhaps it will be expanded on as we go.


To be fair, the idea of 'Time Police' is vastly older than either Loki or UA. I could probably think of half a dozen examples without even visiting the TVTropes page on it.

[Ramza00]

This... felt like a lot of setup with no payoff yet. Like, it was one very long exposition dump with not much happening yet. There were a few fun scenes, sure, but overall, I'm not more than cautiously optimistic. It's the Show telling us what it is going to be about, but not really starting yet.


This episode was 45 minutes if we ignore the 6 minutes of credits.

About 22 minutes take place in a single room, plus the in between scenes where Loki was trying to escape that room and the greater TVA, before returning to the exact same room.

What was the Loki line again?


For the record, this really does feel like a killing-me [exposition-me] kind of a room.

Half of the episode was in the most boring "brutalism" room possible (with bad lighting). This was done on purpose, but it was also kind of soul-crushing.
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And the 22 minutes in the Exposition Room do not count earlier Exposition such as the Trial Room or the Waiting Line for the Trial Room.

[Psyren]

So, the TVA is kind of a fun premise in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen Umbrella Academy, and this is quite literally a knock off of 'em.


To be fair, the idea of 'Time Police' is vastly older than either Loki or UA. I could probably think of half a dozen examples without even visiting the TVTropes page on it.

Putting aside (as The Glyphstone said) that Time Police are a concept far older than both properties, Marvel's TVA (1986) vastly predates Umbrella Academy's Temps Commission (2008). In other words, UA knocked off Marvel, not the other way around.


If his goal was to make the Sacred Timeline feel like nothing happened, Cap would need to find a way to:

put the mind stone back into the scepter.
put the space stone back into the tesseract.
put the reality stone back into Jane Foster (lol).
give the soul stone back to the Red Skull (awkward).
give the time stone back to the Ancient One (except that's also where Loki1130 is from).
and for the power stone, fix the issue with Guardians-1 Thanos having travelled to and died in the future.

See some of these issues in animated form. (https://youtu.be/4vjs_0CoRs4)

No, the Ancient One asked the Avengers to return the stones for the sake of the alternate universes they were creating, that's all.

Again, there were no "alternate universes." He puts a stone back at roughly the moment it was taken, the branch disappears, one timeline. Professor Hulk and Cap even literally say this in Endgame before Steve leaves: "trim all the branches." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4rHoXRWwqo) The TVA judge then further confirms that what he did preserved the sacred timeline rather than disrupting it.

As for how he did all the things on your list, it was the Ancient One's idea (or more specifically, hers and Professor Hulk's). Going back to her first to get aid solves everything.She might even have gone with him. It's literally not important enough to dwell on just by applying a modicum of thought.

The one place where Rogers might have made a separate timeline that the TVA would have to deal with, is the one where he spent his life with Peggy. In which case, the TVA might have actually been the reason Old Steve made it back to the Sacred Timeline, picking him up from his branch and dropping him off on the bench there, and had their Minutemen reset the other one with one of those devices of theirs. All those endless niggling questions about "did Steve save Howard Stark/save JFK/stop 9-11/etc." would be rendered utterly irrelevant in an instant, which I suspect Marvel would find appealing.



I hope they are getting paid well for these 6 episodes of TV.


Part of what makes Disney+'s experiment so fun is that unlike Netflix, they can afford to pay moviestar salaries even for a tv show.

And I have few doubts that the gamble is paying off; the amount of WandaVision merch I've seen being bought up by my friends has been staggering, far moreso than even Avengers stuff. Just wait for Halloween when Wanda and Vision are the most popular couples costume, much like Joker/Deadpool-and-Harley Quinn were that one year.

[Ramza00]

To be fair, the idea of 'Time Police' is vastly older than either Loki or UA. I could probably think of half a dozen examples without even visiting the TVTropes page on it.

I am earnestly asking but do not expect an Answer :smallsmile: the curiosity got the better of me.


I am curious from a sociological standpoint when is the earliest Time Police story takes place in?

Most of the Time Machine Stuff happen after HG Wells' The Time Machine (1895), likewise Police are much older than that, but how we visualize Police and their control of space is a phenomena that is tied to the rise of the Automobile. We saw the style of Police change, but also the number of Police employed by the economy as a percent of the population increase when Cars became more popular, and people could travel large distance very quickly.

I am curious for this trope would be something within "Living Society Memory" but also older than most people's lives. It would be new for our Grandparents or Parents, but familiar for us and I find that type of liminality to be interesting. New but not-new. It was always like this vs no I remember a time when it was different.

-----

Something something Jean Baudrillard with how he had an idea our ability to create images and thus also photograms / lenses to view the pictures we create, have created an abundance of Simulcra experiences, something where we feel like we are in a simulation for so much of our lives are now projected with numbers and myths, and people like the Police increase the perception for they are now monitoring all aspect of our community, and now we have Time Police who monitor all of time, past, present, and future. I am thing of this Baudrillard quote.



If we were able to take as the finest allegory of simulation the Borges tale where the cartographers of the Empire draw up a map so detailed that it ends up exactly covering the territory (but where, with the decline of the Empire this map becomes frayed and finally ruined, a few shreds still discernible in the deserts - the metaphysical beauty of this ruined abstraction, bearing witness to an imperial pride and rotting like a carcass, returning to the substance of the soil, rather as an aging double ends up being confused with the real thing), this fable would then have come full circle for us, and now has nothing but the discrete charm of second-order simulacra.l

[Links to Wikipedia about this tale]The Borgles Tale: On Exactitude in Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Exactitude_in_Science)
Map Territory Relation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation)
Abstraction today is no longer that of the map,
the double,
the mirror or
the concept.

Simulation is no longer that of a territory,
a referential being
or a substance.

It is the generation by models of a real without origin
or reality:
a hyperreal.

The territory no longer precedes the map,
nor survives it.

Henceforth, it is the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - it is the map that engenders the territory and if we were to revive the fable today, it would be the territory whose shreds are slowly rotting across the map.

It is the real, and not the map, whose vestiges subsist here and there, in the deserts which are no longer those of the Empire, but our own.

The desert of the real itself.
https://images.rapgenius.com/82ddd3c9b59361713c000077c30e2901.522x272x1.jpg
The most real thing is "Hyperreality" per Baudrillard and Umberto Eco. Hyperreality is not the real of the concrete world but the mental real, and how we create images inside of our mind and how culture also does this creating images inside of our mind by providing the various traces which we then build off of as foundations. And what is the foundation is lost to us. Baudrillard called Hyperreality "A real without origin or reality" Eco called it "The authentic fake."

Disneyland is often compared to Hyperreality for it is all manufactured places, fairy tales give physical form and so on. Specifically this sign at Disneyland.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/3c/00/f93c003a76047e121c91ef6026b04ce4.jpg

So I am curious about what is the Origin of Time Cops even though there are dozens upon dozens of them now, for it is an origin point we can probably pin down. It happened in living memory, even if it is beyond my individual memory. And if no one knows that too is okay :smallsmile: I am just curious :smallamused:

And Loki as the Mercury Like Trickster Fellow plays with this themes I said about Hyperreality, it would never work his schemes and misdirections with "ILLUSIONS" if the illusions are so close to reality that we could not tell what is real and what is the authentic fake that Loki is hiding behind as a mask. For that is what Loki does, he wears masks to avoid feelings of vulnerability. Likewise he took so much delight with the projector for he feels that projector showed him the real feelings his adopted mother, father, and brother had for him when they did not know they were being recorded. That was not fake to Loki, that was more real than any experience he actually experienced via the senses to Loki for those people did not know the TVA or whatever techno-magic was keeping a record of that reality. The invisible man can see us even when we lie.



I mentioned earlier how Loki was complaining about his name, not with words, but with body language and how he chooses to identify himself. Loki of Asguard, not Loki Odinson (there are some exceptions like his death scene) or Loki Laufeyson.

We are also getting lots of line drops with Loki God of Mischief. Well there are other famous titles for Loki in the comics such as the Prince / God of Lies.

But in the 2010s many comics reinvented Loki as God of Stories, and also later as God of Nothing (God of Untold Stories, where he can warp his backstory.) Note this 2010s Loki is not the same as 1960s and earlier Loki for he has died and reborn several times and thus sometimes you see this Loki regarded as Ikol.

I did not think of this till mid-writting up of this post but I am now convinced God of Stories is going to occur since they are namedropping God of Mischief so often.

[The Glyphstone]

I am earnestly asking but do not expect an Answer :smallsmile: the curiosity got the better of me.


I am curious from a sociological standpoint when is the earliest Time Police story takes place in?

Most of the Time Machine Stuff happen after HG Wells' The Time Machine (1895), likewise Police are much older than that, but how we visualize Police and their control of space is a phenomena that is tied to the rise of the Automobile. We saw the style of Police change, but also the number of Police employed by the economy as a percent of the population increase when Cars became more popular, and people could travel large distance very quickly.

I am curious for this trope would be something within "Living Society Memory" but also older than most people's lives. It would be new for our Grandparents or Parents, but familiar for us and I find that type of liminality to be interesting. New but not-new. It was always like this vs no I remember a time when it was different.

-----

Something something Jean Baudrillard with how he had an idea our ability to create images and thus also photograms / lenses to view the pictures we create, have created an abundance of Simulcra experiences, something where we feel like we are in a simulation for so much of our lives are now projected with numbers and myths, and people like the Police increase the perception for they are now monitoring all aspect of our community, and now we have Time Police who monitor all of time, past, present, and future. I am thing of this Baudrillard quote.


https://images.rapgenius.com/82ddd3c9b59361713c000077c30e2901.522x272x1.jpg
The most real thing is "Hyperreality" per Baudrillard and Umberto Eco. Hyperreality is not the real of the concrete world but the mental real, and how we create images inside of our mind and how culture also does this creating images inside of our mind by providing the various traces which we then build off of as foundations. And what is the foundation is lost to us. Baudrillard called Hyperreality "A real without origin or reality" Eco called it "The authentic fake."

Disneyland is often compared to Hyperreality for it is all manufactured places, fairy tales give physical form and so on. Specifically this sign at Disneyland.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/3c/00/f93c003a76047e121c91ef6026b04ce4.jpg

So I am curious about what is the Origin of Time Cops even though there are dozens upon dozens of them now, for it is an origin point we can probably pin down. It happened in living memory, even if it is beyond my individual memory. And if no one knows that too is okay :smallsmile: I am just curious :smallamused:

And Loki as the Mercury Like Trickster Fellow plays with this themes I said about Hyperreality, it would never work his schemes and misdirections with "ILLUSIONS" if the illusions are so close to reality that we could not tell what is real and what is the authentic fake that Loki is hiding behind as a mask. For that is what Loki does, he wears masks to avoid feelings of vulnerability. Likewise he took so much delight with the projector for he feels that projector showed him the real feelings his adopted mother, father, and brother had for him when they did not know they were being recorded. That was not fake to Loki, that was more real than any experience he actually experienced via the senses to Loki for those people did not know the TVA or whatever techno-magic was keeping a record of that reality. The invisible man can see us even when we lie.



I mentioned earlier how Loki was complaining about his name, not with words, but with body language and how he chooses to identify himself. Loki of Asguard, not Loki Odinson (there are some exceptions like his death scene) or Loki Laufeyson.

We are also getting lots of line drops with Loki God of Mischief. Well there are other famous titles for Loki in the comics such as the Prince / God of Lies.

But in the 2010s many comics reinvented Loki as God of Stories, and also later as God of Nothing (God of Untold Stories, where he can warp his backstory.) Note this 2010s Loki is not the same as 1960s and earlier Loki for he has died and reborn several times and thus sometimes you see this Loki regarded as Ikol.

I did not think of this till mid-writting up of this post but I am now convinced God of Stories is going to occur since they are namedropping God of Mischief so often.



First off, you owe me approximately 30 minutes for forcing me to consult with TvTropes after all.

But based on what's listed there, the first formal example of a group of time-traveling people formed under the explicit stated intent of protecting/preserving the timeline is Robert Anderson's Time Patrol series, first published in 1955. Isaac Asimov published The End of Eternity in the same year, but his Eternals are specifically meddlers in time looking to produce a favorable outcome, the opposite of the normal Time Police mission.

[Ramza00]

First off, you owe me approximately 30 minutes for forcing me to consult with TvTropes after all.

But based on what's listed there, the first formal example of a group of time-traveling people formed under the explicit stated intent of protecting/preserving the timeline is Robert Anderson's Time Patrol series, first published in 1955. Isaac Asimov published The End of Eternity in the same year, but his Eternals are specifically meddlers in time looking to produce a favorable outcome, the opposite of the normal Time Police mission.


Thank you for your sacrifice, hopefully someday I will repay it with some form of kindness *salute*

[Millstone85]

Again, there were no "alternate universes." He puts a stone back at roughly the moment it was taken, the branch disappears, one timeline. Professor Hulk and Cap even literally say this in Endgame before Steve leaves: "trim all the branches." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4rHoXRWwqo)Ah, my bad. It does appear that the Avengers' intention was to prevent branches altogether, not just to stop them from becoming hellish places.

However, this replaces what I thought was a decent explanation with what I now realize was a ridiculous amount of hand-waving.


As for how he did all the things on your list, it was the Ancient One's idea (or more specifically, hers and Professor Hulk's). Going back to her first to get aid solves everything.She might even have gone with him. It's literally not important enough to dwell on just by applying a modicum of thought.So the Ancient One will magic away the issue of Thanos and his army having vanished at the end of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, never to return? Because that seems pretty darn important to me.

[Eldan]

Regarding oldest time Police...

I was actually somewhat reminded of Philip K. Bad-word-for-forum-filter's Adjustment Team from 1954 (or the movie The Adjustment Bureau, though that wasn't about time travel.

This one is about an unnamed agency who do live outside of time and control much of the world to ensure the Proper Order of Things, though.

The story follows a man who slips out of the proper order of things and enters a "de-energized sector", a grey, empty version of the world where everything is frozen, except for figures in white who go around making "Adjustments".

He's brought up the chain and they explain to him that they have to make sure everything on Earth happens the Right Way, so they periodically shut down large areas of the world, so they can go in and repair deviations. Usually, they make sure no one enters or leaves a de-energized sector, but there's been a mistake and instead of leaving for work early, he left a few minutes late. They wanted to send him a Friend with a Car (all caps) who would pick him up, but there was a clerical mistake and he was instead sent a door-to-door salesman who delayed him.

They are a bit more subtle than the TVA, though. Also, the movie implies they are angels even more than the book.

Edit: Valérian is a French Comic about time cops that has been running since 1967.

But the Trope isn't rare. There's Star Trek, All you Zombies, Discworld, the Celestial Intervention Agency and the Time Agency in Doctor Who, the Continuum RPG, the Ordo Chronos in Warhammer 40k...

[Psyren]

Ah, my bad. It does appear that the Avengers' intention was to prevent branches altogether, not just to stop them from becoming hellish places.

Correct.


So the Ancient One will magic away the issue of Thanos and his army having vanished at the end of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, never to return? Because that seems pretty darn important to me.

For the specific task of returning the stones, no, it's not important at all. The only stone that Thanos' army interacted with prior to Infinity War was the Power Stone, and Steve's job was to return it to Morag.

As for Thanos' army, I'm pretty sure he only took one ship through Evil!Nebula's portal to Endgame. It was a BIG ship with a LOT of troops in it (shrunk down), but it was still just one. Saying his entire army vanished from 2014 is a bit of an overstatement.

[DigoDragon]

A little slow for the pilot, but not bad premise. Hopefully they got all the setup out of the way and can jump right in going forward.

Wife laughed when I commented "Oh, Twilight Sparkle is a time cop now!" Yeah, I was being silly.



So…

I’m guessing by the end of this season the TVA gets nuked to Oblivion by their own timeline-resetters, thus wiping them out of existence and bringing back the multiverse?

A reasonable theory!
My theory was the big bad will nuke reality completely, because non-existance is better than the illusion of choice/free will

[Psyren]

I mean, it's a safe bet that something big will happen given that
there's going to be a multiverse of SOME kind in Doctor Strange 2
which does not bode well for the TVA's mission statement.

[Millstone85]

For the specific task of returning the stones, no, it's not important at all. The only stone that Thanos' army interacted with prior to Infinity War was the Power Stone, and Steve's job was to return it to Morag.But it is important for his larger task to "trim all the branches".

So, after a trip through time, the Power Stone is back on 2014 Morag. That's good. Let's assume that Peter wakes up from his Rhodey-induced coma, wonders what happened, then proceeds to take the Power Stone. He even has his "Star-Lord! / Who?" exchange with Ronan's goons, exactly like in GotG.

Then he flies to Xandar and meets Gamora.

Oh wait, Steve did not bring back a Gamora, did he? Can the Ancient One make a Gamora for Peter to meet? Clearly, GotG isn't as we remember it.

As for IW, it is not going to happen at all, because no Thanos.

[Clertar]

Oh wait, Steve did not bring back a Gamora, did he? Can the Ancient One make a Gamora for Peter to meet? Clearly, GotG isn't as we remember it.

As for IW, it is not going to happen at all, because no Thanos.

That sounds like the type of things that the TVA does. When they talk about "resetting" Loki they (most likely) mean erasing the variant version, and re-incorporating a new Loki in the timeline. So when Steve has returned the Power Stone, Peter Quill finds it, etc. then the TVA resets Thanos and co. so that the timeline can proceed as it should.

It's not unlikely that this will not only be lampshaded in Loki, but actually addressed as part of the plot. In any case, I will wait to see more than 16% of the series before establishing that this is actually a gaping issue :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Oh wait, Steve did not bring back a Gamora, did he? Can the Ancient One make a Gamora for Peter to meet? Clearly, GotG isn't as we remember it.

As for IW, it is not going to happen at all, because no Thanos.

That's not a branch caused by Steve returning the stones though, that's a branch caused by Thanos leaving - one which the TVA presumably pruned. The courtroom scene didn't say anything about Thanos, only the Avengers.


That sounds like the type of things that the TVA does. When they talk about "resetting" Loki they (most likely) mean erasing the variant version, and re-incorporating a new Loki in the timeline. So when Steve has returned the Power Stone, Peter Quill finds it, etc. then the TVA resets Thanos and co. so that the timeline can proceed as it should.

This.

[Ramza00]

First off, you owe me approximately 30 minutes for forcing me to consult with TvTropes after all.

But based on what's listed there, the first formal example of a group of time-traveling people formed under the explicit stated intent of protecting/preserving the timeline is Robert Anderson's Time Patrol series, first published in 1955. Isaac Asimov published The End of Eternity in the same year, but his Eternals are specifically meddlers in time looking to produce a favorable outcome, the opposite of the normal Time Police mission.


Cool here is one more a friend just pointed out to me, I figured I would add to to the pile.


Alfred Bester who won the first Hugo Award ever, is a sci-fi great, and is also an author of some Superman and Green Lantern 1940s stories including the penning a variant of the GL oath "In brightest day, In blackest night" (version.)

Well in 1951 he did a short story "Of Time and Third Avenue" from what I can intuit of the plot (I will read it tonight) there is a Back to the Future II situation with an almanac of the future that somehow got sent back to the past and a time cop shows up. The Back to the Future Situation is the protagonist of the story bought a '50 almanac but instead of being 1950 it was 2050 and the Time Cop is trying to talk him into voluntarily giving it to him. For the good of the present and future.

[Solamnicknight]

Is anyone else thinking the TVA is doomed? Given the title of the upcoming Dr Strange film. My guess is that the alternate Loki that’s causing trouble will team up with the Avengers Loki due to having sympathetic motives. They tag team destroying the TVA together but perhaps Avengers Loki spares Agent Mobius?

[TeChameleon]

Wellp, watched it, liked it well enough, and while Owen Wilson still felt like kind of an odd choice, he played well enough off Tom Hiddleston that I didn't mind it that much.

... although the character he played, Mobius M. Mobius was basically an obstructive meddling bureaucrat in the comics, so the change in type was kind of weird, but no real worries I guess. Would've been cool if Wunmi Mosaku's character had been Justicer Peace (the very first TVA operative to appear in comics) instead of the frustratingly generic 'Hunter B-15', but I guess that's not the direction they chose to go.

I sort of half-wish they'd kept the TVA operatives' goofy helmets from the comics, but I guess you can't have everything :smalltongue: Interesting aside- I didn't realize it, but the TVA had their origins in Walt Simonson's epic (in the traditional, literal sense of the word) run on Thor comics in the 80s, although they were greatly fleshed out in the Fantastic Four in the 90s.

As another aside, jumping back a few pages, I didn't mind Goldblum's take on the Grandmaster, but the character always felt a little goofy to me in the comics, even when they tried to make him more serious by using his 'real' name of En Dwi Gast; he was a gambling junkie with a god complex who took himself far too seriously, so Jeff Goldblum's take on him didn't feel particularly out of place.

I'm not sure the TVA is quite as omnipotent as they make themselves out to be; if they're keeping to the source material to any degree, the Infinity Stones not working there was entirely unsurprising and absolutely nothing to do with them. In the comics, Infinity Gems only work in their native universe, which the TVA emphatically was not. Guessing that there is a set that works in the TVA, but it's kept somewhere very secure and even more secret.

Also, I don't know if the TVA will stick around or not; my guess is that what they're actually doing is keeping the various universes sufficiently separated that the old tech that was used in the multiversal war doesn't work, because there's no freaking way that what they're doing would prevent a multiverse. I'm thinking Loki might have the right of it that the whole 'sacred timeline' thing smells suspiciously of bull****.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Is anyone else thinking the TVA is doomed?

Absolutely; wiping out an organization that didn’t exist until this series falls neatly into the ‘TV shows are not required viewing’ bucket they’ve been using for all their shows so far, and ‘restoring free will to the multiverse and preventing future erasures by the uncaring bureaucracy’ would be enough of a Good Thing to balance out the inevitable backstabbing that will occur, even if Loki’s doing it for purely selfish reasons.

[Millstone85]

Is anyone else thinking the TVA is doomed? Given the title of the upcoming Dr Strange film.There is an amusing theory floating around.

In a true timey-wimey Jeremy-Bearimy fashion, the upcoming Multiverse of Madness and the ancient multiversal war would be one and the same. What's more, the Time Keepers would turn out to be variants of Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch and Loki.

[Rodin]

Absolutely; wiping out an organization that didn’t exist until this series falls neatly into the ‘TV shows are not required viewing’ bucket they’ve been using for all their shows so far, and ‘restoring free will to the multiverse and preventing future erasures by the uncaring bureaucracy’ would be enough of a Good Thing to balance out the inevitable backstabbing that will occur, even if Loki’s doing it for purely selfish reasons.

I would dispute Wandavision not being required viewing.

An upcoming movie is "The Marvels", which means we're 100% going to be seeing Monica Rambeau in that movie. If you skip the TV show that means Monica Rambeau goes from ordinary little girl to superhero with mysterious powers with no explanation whatsoever. Wanda also left that show in a drastically different position then she did in Endgame. Endgame had her back as an Avenger. WandaVision shatters that link and has her off on her own learning dark magics.

And that's without getting into whether Cataract is going to make a reappearance outside of the TV universe.

Falcon and Winter Soldier is much easier to ignore. Sam left Endgame not sure if he wanted to be Captain America, and by the end of his show he did. That doesn't require explanation other than "he changed his mind", and it's about the only universe-impacting change that happened. The new characters are easy to leave in TV land.

I'm not making any bets on how Loki is going to play out. WandaVision was effectively an MCU movie in its own right, and a fairly important one at that. Given the emphasis on the multiverse going forward, I'm leaning more towards Loki continuing to setup for Dr. Strange 2.

[Silent Hunter]

Regarding oldest time Police...

I was actually somewhat reminded of Philip K. Bad-word-for-forum-filter's Adjustment Team from 1954 (or the movie The Adjustment Bureau, though that wasn't about time travel.

This one is about an unnamed agency who do live outside of time and control much of the world to ensure the Proper Order of Things, though.

The story follows a man who slips out of the proper order of things and enters a "de-energized sector", a grey, empty version of the world where everything is frozen, except for figures in white who go around making "Adjustments".

He's brought up the chain and they explain to him that they have to make sure everything on Earth happens the Right Way, so they periodically shut down large areas of the world, so they can go in and repair deviations. Usually, they make sure no one enters or leaves a de-energized sector, but there's been a mistake and instead of leaving for work early, he left a few minutes late. They wanted to send him a Friend with a Car (all caps) who would pick him up, but there was a clerical mistake and he was instead sent a door-to-door salesman who delayed him.

They are a bit more subtle than the TVA, though. Also, the movie implies they are angels even more than the book.

Edit: Valérian is a French Comic about time cops that has been running since 1967.

But the Trope isn't rare. There's Star Trek, All you Zombies, Discworld, the Celestial Intervention Agency and the Time Agency in Doctor Who, the Continuum RPG, the Ordo Chronos in Warhammer 40k...

Have we mentioned the Time Masters in DC, first appearing in 1959?

[Thrudd]

Not technically a spoiler, since I don't know for sure what will happen, but..Was it not obvious to everyone that at least one of the time keepers in the cartoon is Kang the Conqueror? Most likely, all three are him from different timelines (Immortus, etc.) "The sacred timeline" is definitely on brand for Kang. Obviously, he needs to preserve the timelines in which he was able to seize power. That's why everything that happened in Endgame is fine for the TVA, regardless of how screwed up it makes the multiverse, because he comes to power long after those events.

About the flashbacks, I think it was important for them to give this Loki, the 2012 Loki, an abbreviated form of the character growth that the character had through the later movies. We needed to see him see his mother's death and his reconciliation with Thor, as well as his own death, so he could realize what was really important to him.

[Ramza00]

Not technically a spoiler, since I don't know for sure what will happen, but..Was it not obvious to everyone that at least one of the time keepers in the cartoon is Kang the Conqueror? Most likely, all three are him from different timelines (Immortus, etc.) "The sacred timeline" is definitely on brand for Kang. Obviously, he needs to preserve the timelines in which he was able to seize power. That's why everything that happened in Endgame is fine for the TVA, regardless of how screwed up it makes the multiverse, because he comes to power long after those events.

About the flashbacks, I think it was important for them to give this Loki, the 2012 Loki, an abbreviated form of the character growth that the character had through the later movies. We needed to see him see his mother's death and his reconciliation with Thor, as well as his own death, so he could realize what was really important to him.
Another way to look at the same Data.


A) Is that the Time Keepers are separate from Kang.
B) They may be related to The Living Tribunal

(A and B are completely separate and unrelated)
C) That Kang based his costume off the Time Keepers.

In sum we really do not know what is going to happen with the MCU based off Comic Lore of 616 and other alternate universes in the Marvel "Multiverse." The MCU gets to decide what stuff it keeps and what stuff it remixes :smalltongue:

Takes a nod at the Ultimate 1610 which was in hindsight a horrible project, but we got some good ideas out of it and into the MCU even though most of it was bad and designed for shock value.

[Hopeless]

Is it possible this is the prelude to the Secret Wars?

Heroes taken out of time thus allowing deceased heroes to return and villains including Magneto explaining how the X-Men and mutants get introduced to the MCU as they're brought over as a result of this multiversal war?

Is that possible?

[Ramza00]

Is it possible this is the prelude to the Secret Wars?

Heroes taken out of time thus allowing deceased heroes to return and villains including Magneto explaining how the X-Men and mutants get introduced to the MCU as they're brought over as a result of this multiversal war?

Is that possible?

Yes it is Possible.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I would dispute Wandavision not being required viewing.

Dispute away, but note that those were Kevin Feige’s words not mine. (https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2563392/kevin-feige-on-if-watching-wandavision-is-mandatory-for-doctor-strange-and-captain-marvels-sequels)


We try to make the stories unfold in a way that if you are following along and have seen what has preceded it, you’ll be right up to speed. And more importantly, if you haven’t, you’ll be up to speed.


So there were lots of conversations with Sam Raimi and and Michael Waldron, and the entire Doctor Strange team, that this movie needs to work for people who watched WandaVision, but more importantly, needs to work for people who didn’t, who maybe Endgame was the last time they saw Wanda, or one of the earlier movies. Or maybe she’s a character they’re meeting for the first time.

Now, if you want to argue they haven’t succeeded…I will argue back that it’s a little early to tell. A few lines of dialogue could probably cover most things (‘Who’s this?’ ‘This is The Vision.’ ‘I thought he died?’ ‘He got better!’) but it depends on how much they need to dive into the backstory to make the future movies’ stories make sense. For example, if Wanda’s main contribution to Dr. Strange 2 is to show up and shoot red wiggly-woos at bad guys? They need a lot less backstory included then if part of the plot involves tracking down her children.

[Thrudd]

Another way to look at the same Data.


A) Is that the Time Keepers are separate from Kang.
B) They may be related to The Living Tribunal

(A and B are completely separate and unrelated)
C) That Kang based his costume off the Time Keepers.

In sum we really do not know what is going to happen with the MCU based off Comic Lore of 616 and other alternate universes in the Marvel "Multiverse." The MCU gets to decide what stuff it keeps and what stuff it remixes :smalltongue:

Takes a nod at the Ultimate 1610 which was in hindsight a horrible project, but we got some good ideas out of it and into the MCU even though most of it was bad and designed for shock value.


A and B don't explain the data, because the center figure of the time keepers definitely looks like a version of Kang. So yes, it could be that his costume is based off of the time keeper. It's possible that the MCU version of the Living Tribunal will be three separate people of whom Kang is one, and who also go by the name of Time Keepers. Or that the idea of the Living Tribunal is being combined with the idea of Kang manipulating the timestream into an MCU specific thing they are calling the Time Keepers.

However, I feel that this is getting more complicated than is likely for the MCU. I think it's most likely that the guy that looks like Kang is going to turn out to be Kang, and therefore the TVA is his creation (or he has taken control of them), for the purpose of doing what Kang is known for: conquering time. We know he is definitely going to appear in the MCU films soon, in Ant Man:Quantumania, apparently.

Also, the Living Tribunal was name dropped once in Doctor Strange, though only peripherally as the name of a magic artifact- so it might have been a throw away easter egg that Feige et al. didn't pay attention to. Or, it might indicate that the Living Tribunal exists in the MCU, by that name, which would mean the Time Keepers of the TVA are likely something separate.

However, I think it would be cool if it turns out Kang is sort of mimicking or posing as an imitation of the Living Tribunal called the Time Keepers, which ends with the reveal of the real Living Tribunal judging him. Of course, that would have to be the end of phase 4 or later

[Clertar]

Now, if you want to argue they haven’t succeeded…I will argue back that it’s a little early to tell. A few lines of dialogue could probably cover most things (‘Who’s this?’ ‘This is The Vision.’ ‘I thought he died?’ ‘He got better!’) but it depends on how much they need to dive into the backstory to make the future movies’ stories make sense. For example, if Wanda’s main contribution to Dr. Strange 2 is to show up and shoot red wiggly-woos at bad guys? They need a lot less backstory included then if part of the plot involves tracking down her children.

They got away with it so far. Things were happening between movies anyways, and sometimes we were brought up to speed as you say with a few lines of dialogue. In Infinity War we understood that Wanda had been on the run for a couple of years with Captain America & co., but that she and the Vision (who was not on the run) had been meeting secretely.

But on a broader sense, the MCU now has graduated to a (small) Marvel comics universe of interconnected products, that you no longer need to read all of them them to be able to follow the stories that you're interested in. As a kid I read mostly Spider-man and Fantastic Four comics, plus a little bit of Thor. Sometimes other superheroes crossed over, like Daredevil or Iron Fist, or there were bigger events that I also read, and assuming/accepting that things were going on "off screen" that I was not aware of was never an issue. The same thing will happen going forward with the MCU.

[Rodin]

We're also talking about two very different versions of "not required viewing".

The first is what the MCU is built on - a large number of movies of which only a few "tentpole" movies are absolutely required. My core list would be something like this:

1) Iron Man
2) The Avengers
3) Captain America: Winter Soldier
4) Avengers: Age of Ultron
5) Captain America: Civil War
6) Avengers: Infinity War
7) Avengers: Endgame

Even if you toss a couple extras in there (GotG is a good shout) you still wind up with only a THIRD of the total MCU movies. Many of them have elements that come into play later like Infinity Stones or Pym Particles, but on the whole you can get by without having seen them. It's also the category I expect to file all the new TV shows. It's important for the universe at large for them to happen, but you can probably get by without them.

That separates them from the second category - the effectively non-canon. All the earlier TV shows fit into this. Phil Coulson never came back from the grave despite doing so in Agents of Shield. Spiderman isn't going to team up with Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. Shang-Chi isn't going to get into a martial-arts battle with Iron Fist. Those TV shows are never going to get referenced again, except maybe with a wink and a nod to the viewers who did see them. Even there I doubt it - there was a perfect opportunity to reference Coulson in the first episode of Loki and they didn't take it.

That's what I was referring to when I talked about required viewing in my earlier post. These shows are as part of the MCU as any of the movies are, which was very much not the case for the earlier TV shows and other adaptations.

[Rakaydos]

So, my impression is that the Sacred Timeline is not actually a single timeline, but a bundle that remains more or less on the same trajectory. If it was a single timeline, it would imply that the "big multiversal war" was WON outright, and not just came to a peaceful compromise ending that formed the timecops.

Small variations from one timeline to another within the bundle are fine, as long as key events all happen. Resetting the infinity stones at the end of endgame means that the timelines will be different, but the tools will be in place for events to return to normal. (with the exception of the SPACE timeline that invaded the prime universe, and the loki space stone theft, which we saw what happened to it- sorry ancient one, you got reset through no fault of yours or Banners)

I see two places the vengence-against-the-TVA Loki might have come from. One possibility, of course, is the SPACE timeline, where he never dies to Thanos, because Thanos is busy preparing to invade the prime timeline. If Loki used Thanos's tools, he might gain independant universe-hopping powers. But how does he stay ahead of the TVA?
The other possibility, though, I find more interesting. What if... On the ship where Loki is destined to die to Thanos, SOMEONE becomes a variant, and the heroes WIN...and the TVA shows up to "correct" the divergence. Everyone dies except Loki... and "our" loki, from thor 3, just had everything he ever cared about killed by the TVA, AND has the TVA fireteam's equipment.

[Zalabim]

I see two places the vengence-against-the-TVA Loki might have come from. One possibility, of course, is the SPACE timeline, where he never dies to Thanos, because Thanos is busy preparing to invade the prime timeline. If Loki used Thanos's tools, he might gain independant universe-hopping powers. But how does he stay ahead of the TVA?
The other possibility, though, I find more interesting. What if... On the ship where Loki is destined to die to Thanos, SOMEONE becomes a variant, and the heroes WIN...and the TVA shows up to "correct" the divergence. Everyone dies except Loki... and "our" loki, from thor 3, just had everything he ever cared about killed by the TVA, AND has the TVA fireteam's equipment.
See, my first assumption is that the Loki that is causing the problems is a future version of the Loki that they just recruited. This is because the Loki that is causing them problems must have known not to underestimate the TVA in order to cause them problems. The most likely reason he knows that is because he met them before. Now he is causing the problems so that they will recruit him in order to stop him thus ensuring that he exists. Things can only get weirder from there.

[Clertar]

I see two places the vengence-against-the-TVA Loki might have come from. One possibility, of course, is the SPACE timeline, where he never dies to Thanos, because Thanos is busy preparing to invade the prime timeline. If Loki used Thanos's tools, he might gain independant universe-hopping powers. But how does he stay ahead of the TVA?
The other possibility, though, I find more interesting. What if... On the ship where Loki is destined to die to Thanos, SOMEONE becomes a variant, and the heroes WIN...and the TVA shows up to "correct" the divergence. Everyone dies except Loki... and "our" loki, from thor 3, just had everything he ever cared about killed by the TVA, AND has the TVA fireteam's equipment.

What if... it's a Loki that was recruited by the TVA, saw first-hand that this sacred timeline goes directly against freedom and free will in a way that he ended up going up against the TVA and decided to use the time-resetting devices to get rid of the sacred timeline? (Ergo, our protagonist Loki is the past version of antagonist Loki.)

[Rakaydos]

See, my first assumption is that the Loki that is causing the problems is a future version of the Loki that they just recruited. This is because the Loki that is causing them problems must have known not to underestimate the TVA in order to cause them problems. The most likely reason he knows that is because he met them before. Now he is causing the problems so that they will recruit him in order to stop him thus ensuring that he exists. Things can only get weirder from there.

That's one reason why I dont think Loki was the original variance on the ship, he was just the last survivor of the TVA/Ragnorok crew/Thanos crew 3 way fight. Especially since it's post prime-loki's death, the TVA missed the fact that the variance let loki survive, and wasnt prepared for loki's brand of subtlty in the middle of pitched battle.

But you're right, the self fulfilling prophecy to explain why multiverse starts mattering now and not before is also interesting. It raises questions about how TVA's relationship with the Sacred Timeline, though. (Loki's aprehention happens while Mobeous is investigating an attack, he isnt informed before or after, or even on an "earlier" outing, which implies a certian amout of imposed continuity on TVA itself, which paradox-loki would need to be bypassing.

[Psyren]

Put me down in the "important things happened in WandaVision but they can probably get people who skipped it up to speed quickly" camp.

Remember too - Marvel has a habit of recapping the important stuff from the movies they have reason to believe people didn't see. Loki is now home to our third revisitation of the major events of Thor 2, which is frequently listed in the bottom 3 of the MCU if not being the least-seen one. Similarly, Avengers did a very quick getting-up-to-speed on what happened in Incredible Hulk, first using Black Widow and secondly Steve Rogers.

[Rodin]

Put me down in the "important things happened in WandaVision but they can probably get people who skipped it up to speed quickly" camp.

Remember too - Marvel has a habit of recapping the important stuff from the movies they have reason to believe people didn't see. Loki is now home to our third revisitation of the major events of Thor 2, which is frequently listed in the bottom 3 of the MCU if not being the least-seen one. Similarly, Avengers did a very quick getting-up-to-speed on what happened in Incredible Hulk, first using Black Widow and secondly Steve Rogers.

What's even funnier is that it's about 20 minutes in the middle of the movie that matter. The actual villain is entirely irrelevant. Which is more proof of how bad Thor 2 was I suppose - even the MCU doesn't want to bring up any more of it than it absolutely has to.

[Tyndmyr]

See, my first assumption is that the Loki that is causing the problems is a future version of the Loki that they just recruited. This is because the Loki that is causing them problems must have known not to underestimate the TVA in order to cause them problems. The most likely reason he knows that is because he met them before. Now he is causing the problems so that they will recruit him in order to stop him thus ensuring that he exists. Things can only get weirder from there.


This was also my assumption. Time stuff already known to be in play, so this is...entirely possible. And maybe a whole lot of fun, with events from both linking up if viewed from the right perspective, Memento style.

I don't want to get too set on it in case it doesn't pan out, but it'd be a lot of fun if it did.

[The Glyphstone]

I can't wait to see Loki confront Other Loki. The Snark To Snark Combat will be epic.

[Hopeless]

What's stopping Loki rescuing his mother once he realises Past Thanos went into the future to fight the Avengers after they went time travelling to reverse his Snap?

The more this goes on the more I'm wondering how did Loki end up where that episode started.

And what happened between the scene in Endgame when he escaped with the Space Stone and him arriving in Mongolia?

What if they're wrong and the Loki they have is the one who should have died in Infinity Wars, but was rescued by the time variant Loki and is only now recognising the TVA messed up big time?!

[Psyren]

What's even funnier is that it's about 20 minutes in the middle of the movie that matter. The actual villain is entirely irrelevant. Which is more proof of how bad Thor 2 was I suppose - even the MCU doesn't want to bring up any more of it than it absolutely has to.

I'll never forgive how much they absolutely ruined Malekith. He's Joker with portals - unapologetically chaotic evil, insane, has armies of goons, teleports around, murders indiscriminately, and has the time of his life with every conquer-the-nine-realms scheme. And any Doctor could have pulled that off, but Eccleston especially. How do they take THAT, and make it boring?!

[Rakaydos]

What's stopping Loki rescuing his mother once he realises Past Thanos went into the future to fight the Avengers after they went time travelling to reverse his Snap?

The more this goes on the more I'm wondering how did Loki end up where that episode started.

And what happened between the scene in Endgame when he escaped with the Space Stone and him arriving in Mongolia?

What if they're wrong and the Loki they have is the one who should have died in Infinity Wars, but was rescued by the time variant Loki and is only now recognising the TVA messed up big time?!

The protag Loki has too much ego and misplaced confidence after being picked up by the TVA to be anything but the 2012 Loki. A IW Loki would either be less egotistical, or if prepared to play a part, less shocked when things dont go his way.

The time gap between 2012 Loki vanishing in NY and appearing in Mongolia is an interesting point, though. The TVA cant prune the timeline while Stark, Banner, Ant and Cap are still in it, because their actions are authorized. How much time passes in Endgame between Loki's escape, and the heroes leaving the timeline?

[Tyndmyr]

Man, this whole time thing is gonna make Cap goin' back to live a full life frigging weird again, isn't it?

[Rakaydos]

Man, this whole time thing is gonna make Cap goin' back to live a full life frigging weird again, isn't it?

I see it more as explaining why cap coming back the slow way DIDN'T cause the mess it should have. Every non-prime timeline either became "close enough" copies of the Sacred Timeline, or it ceased to exist.

[Psyren]

Hell, the TVA could have been the ones to pick him up from his "branch" and drop him off on that bench back in the Prime so that he could pass on the shield. If anything, this explains how Steve got back even more easily than our prior theories.

[Zalabim]

Forgot my other speculatory thought.
I realize that any variance should be expected to involve time travel. I still got the impression during processing that they've seen a lot of Loki variants. I bet he goes off script a lot. He seems like the type. Totally explainable as in-episode foreshadowing because there is actually another Loki. If there are two now, there are probably others, past, present, or future. Time is weird in the TVA.

[Rodin]

Forgot my other speculatory thought.
I realize that any variance should be expected to involve time travel. I still got the impression during processing that they've seen a lot of Loki variants. I bet he goes off script a lot. He seems like the type. Totally explainable as in-episode foreshadowing because there is actually another Loki. If there are two now, there are probably others, past, present, or future. Time is weird in the TVA.

He is the God of Mischief after all.

Speaking of, did anyone else get Lord Shojo vibes out of the analysis of Loki? "Yes, yes, you're the God of Mischief. But that's just a title. What are you?

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder why Hunter B-15 doesn't have a given name, even in the cast page? The judge has a name, despite getting less screening. Heck, they even bothered to give the file clerk a name.

[theNater]

And what happened between the scene in Endgame when he escaped with the Space Stone and him arriving in Mongolia?
My understanding is that nothing happened between those scenes. That's 2012 Loki crashing in 2012 Mongolia. You can see the remnants of the restraints he was in as debris around him, and the first thing he does is pull of the gag Thor just put on him.


I wonder why Hunter B-15 doesn't have a given name, even in the cast page? The judge has a name, despite getting less screening. Heck, they even bothered to give the file clerk a name.
Considering that the workers of the TVA were created from whole cloth by the Time Keepers, I don't see any reason her given name can't be Hunter B-15.

[The Glyphstone]

My understanding is that nothing happened between those scenes. That's 2012 Loki crashing in 2012 Mongolia. You can see the remnants of the restraints he was in as debris around him, and the first thing he does is pull of the gag Thor just put on him.


Considering that the workers of the TVA were created from whole cloth by the Time Keepers, I don't see any reason her given name can't be Hunter B-15.

I mean, that is entirely possible. But then it does raise questions in turn about TVA authority...are Hunters and Minutemen seen as disposable somehow, where they dont get 'real' names like other people do?

[theNater]

I mean, that is entirely possible. But then it does raise questions in turn about TVA authority...are Hunters and Minutemen seen as disposable somehow, where they dont get 'real' names like other people do?
Possibly, but I notice that Mobius, Casey, and Ravonna all have jobs in which they're expected to converse with people outside the agency (investigator, receptionist, and judge, respectively). So it might be entirely utility-based; outsider-like names for outsider-facing positions.

(Side note: Given what we've seen of the TVA so far, I assume they consider all of their workers disposable; replaceable parts of the machine protecting the timeline).

[Thrudd]

Possibly, but I notice that Mobius, Casey, and Ravonna all have jobs in which they're expected to converse with people outside the agency (investigator, receptionist, and judge, respectively). So it might be entirely utility-based; outsider-like names for outsider-facing positions.

(Side note: Given what we've seen of the TVA so far, I assume they consider all of their workers disposable; replaceable parts of the machine protecting the timeline).

Wait, the Judge's name is Ravonna? I didn't pay attention to the credits lol. Well, I don't see any way that Kang isn't going to be involved in this now, though I had few doubts. He might not actually appear or be introduced yet, but there's no way he isn't mixed up with the TVA somehow (I still think the Time Keepers are actually a council of Kangs).

[Starbuck_II]

Is it possible this is the prelude to the Secret Wars?

Heroes taken out of time thus allowing deceased heroes to return and villains including Magneto explaining how the X-Men and mutants get introduced to the MCU as they're brought over as a result of this multiversal war?

Is that possible?

I mean, Not-Quicksilver was reincarnated on Wanda Vision, who is Quicksilver on the X-Men series, but that could be a one shot but him being actually Quicksilver on MCU would be pretty cool.

Heck, they can have a crossover with Deadpool, who has technically died...

[TeChameleon]

Wait, the judge was Ravonna..?

My immediate thought is that Mobius will turn into Kang, given the way that he was flirting with the judge earlier.

... bloody hell. Owen Wilson as Kang, wouldn't that be a casting choice. (and yes, I know that someone else is already cast as Kang)

[Rodin]

WELP.

Wasn't expecting gender-flipped Loki to be the villain. Kinda makes me wonder if they did it to give Tom Hiddleston an out without having to perma-kill Loki in the main universe.

I was expecting the mass bombing of the Sacred Timeline. It was the obvious thing to do with a large number of reset devices. It was going to be the timeline or the TVA or the Timekeepers.

Mad props to the actors playing the "possessed by Loki" roles. Hiddleston brings such a unique vibe to the character that I didn't expect anyone to be able to imitate it, but they did a great job.

I'm also sold on Owen Wilson now. He's not my favorite actor in the world so I was pretty dubious to have him as a major character. Wilson and Hiddleston have great chemistry and I hope we see more of them together in the rest of the series.

Calling it now....

Timekeepers are dead/absent and have been gone for some time. Ravonna is a pretty high ranking person in the TVA and she has never seen a Timekeeper? Yeah, they're toast and either their absence is being covered up or someone has secretly taken over.

[thatSeniorGuy]

So


I'm curious, is there a female Loki in the comics somewhere? Or is she an original creation for the series?


E:

Also, what on earth did fLoki show that Minutewomen to make her go borderline catatonic?

[Starbuck_II]

So


I'm curious, is there a female Loki in the comics somewhere? Or is she an original creation for the series?


E:

Also, what on earth did fLoki show that Minutewomen to make her go borderline catatonic?



Yes, Loki went female a few times.
Dark Avengers: he went female to manipulate Osborn.

During Avengers Dissembled: The Asgardian god were being reborn after being killed in Ragnarok; Loki stole the form meant for Sif and took on the visage of a young woman. This trapped Sif from being reborn. She (he, not sure what Loki wants as pronouns) used the female form to be trusted and played tricks and causing havok.
Eventually, they forced him to release Sif and turn back to normal.

[Palanan]

Thoroughly enjoyable second episode. I liked the first, but really loved this one.



I’m tickled we had our time in Pompeii, and Loki declaiming in Latin was absolutely hilarious.

Sadly they got the shape of Vesuvius wrong—they were using the modern remnant as the basis for their model, but the pre-eruption Vesuvius was actually twice as high and much narrower at its tip.

And a little love letter to 80s Renfaires.

I wasn’t entirely convinced with the whole timeline thing in the first episode, but I’m fully onboard now.

The Loki-possessed redneck was absolutely hilarious, great acting from that fellow.

But I have to wonder--even without his magic, Loki should still be inhumanly stronger and tougher than ordinary Earthfolk. How is he getting tossed around by Redneck Loki? Does the possession impart superhuman strength?

So, is there an actual female Loki from somewhere in comics lore, or is this new? It sounds like Loki has taken on female guise a few times, but that’s different from an alternate Loki who is female from the get-go.

Of course, our version could just be a variant Loki in female guise, but I have a feeling not.

Also, is it just me, or does the actress have more than a passing resemblance to Rene Russo?


Originally Posted by Rodin
Timekeepers are dead/absent and have been gone for some time. Ravonna is a pretty high ranking person in the TVA and she has never seen a Timekeeper? Yeah, they're toast and either their absence is being covered up or someone has secretly taken over.

Yeah, I’m getting this vibe pretty strongly as well.

Especially given Moebius’ answer about the end of time being a “work in progress,” which sounds like there’s some covering-up about the lack of cosmic plan engendered by the absence of the Timekeepers.

[Millstone85]

I wonder how all these wildly different Lokis came to be.

Maybe they were refugees from the pre-TVA multiverse. There, Odin would be visited by grown-up versions of the blue child he just adopted, and decide on different forms in the hope to get it right in this timeline.

[Ramza00]

So


I'm curious, is there a female Loki in the comics somewhere? Or is she an original creation for the series?



Comic and Myth Lore


So in myth lore Loki is a shapechanger and has change genders in several stories. Likewise Loki is a parent being of Hel, Vali* who are goddesses and gods respectively. He is also the father of the monstrous wolf Fenrir and the Midgard serpent Jörmungand by Loki’s female mate, the Giantress Angrboða (Hel is also a child of the same union.)

And in one tale Loki assumes the form of a female horse, a mare, and a stallion mated with Loki, and thus Loki was the mother of the eight legged horse Sleipnir who becomes Odin’s horse for Sleipnir is the best of all horses.

—————

Due to all of this the comics has had a Lady Loki(s) since 2007. Except when I used plural here understand Loki has died and been reborn several times and thus each “variant” (to borrow a MCU term) Loki in the comics are different. Loki has figured out many ways to cheat death and avoid the reckoning of the gods / ragnarok, for he is a trickster at heart.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENJq6dAXYAMpyYj?format=jpg&name=medium

Links to the inks from a 2019 comic to demonstrate this, instead of the main colored page for it does not have any words that spoil an unrelated Loki story.

—————

Sidenote there was a brouhaha that I am only lightly familiar with in the last 3 months.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disappearing-reappearing-queer-loki-on-marvels-voices-pride-cover/

Read the link above but the short of it is Marvel posts covers of their comics 3 months prior to publication. This gives comicshops who are brick and mortars time to order comics and guess demand for these comics which have no return policy. Thus there is a Cover reveal and a paragraph of text in a catalog for it is an older business model that made sense decades ago.

Well for years now Marvel and DC do a special issue for Pride that is stand alone and fans buy it even if it is not connected to other stories. The marvel one this year did all their LGBT characters of Marvel but did not include Loki who is genderfluid and is also bisexual.

After some angry fans, and a smaller amount of fans noticing some white space in this collage Marvel in May said they kept Loki off the cover reveal due to the upcoming Loki show even though Loki is out as bisexual and genderfluid for a decade now. Said Marvel Voices issue comes out in 7 days on the 23rd of June 🙂


Edit


In some markets they are calling Lady Loki, Sylvia which is a different comics character.

She is in a Young Avengers book, then later Avengers Academy (think teenage Avengers separate from YA), then Illuminati. A minor character sometimes called Enchantress but she is not the main character with that codename.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/7/7a/Loki_Laufeyson_%28Earth-616%29_and_Sylvie_Lushton_%28Earth-616%29_001.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130918035153

Here is Lady Loki explaining what she did.

So I am guessing different countries are using different dialogue and plot points due to “cultural reasons.”

[DigoDragon]

Ah, now we're getting into the thick of things. Great episode!
I want a jacket with VARIENT written on the back. :smallbiggrin: I should jot this down. Easiest Halloween costume ever...

Can't hear Miss Minute without picturing Twilight Sparkle. I cursed myself. XD Time travel stories are always complicated things to get right, but so far I think I can follow this one. Nice of the story to answer my question about traveling to the same points repeatedly in a deviant timeline. Very clever of Loki to figure out where the other variant could hide. Great stuff going on.

And, if you live in Alabama, you got 29 years to move. That store gave me By n Large vibes. :3

Mobius will start eating his lunch in his cubicle, and hide the salt and pepper shakers.

[JadedDM]

A few observations and questions:

Is Roxxcart supposed to be related to Roxxon?

Apparently in 2050, a category 8 hurricane is going to kill 10,000+ people. It's worth noting that hurricanes only go up to category 5. This suggests that climate change is going to get so bad that we'll need to add several more categories to it. (Also for context, Hurricane Katrina, the worst hurricane to hit the US in recent memory, 'only' killed around 1,800 people.) As someone who grew up on the gulf coast, that's pretty terrifying.

As someone who has worked retail before, the idea that one day corporations will have 'hurricane sales' but also force their workers to come in and work during category 8 hurricanes is something I find both infuriating and way too believable.

Also, interesting that the complete destruction of Asgard was considered a level 7 cataclysm, but the hurricane in Alabama was level 10. Unless the scale goes backwards?

[Thrudd]

A few observations and questions:

Is Roxxcart supposed to be related to Roxxon?

Apparently in 2050, a category 8 hurricane is going to kill 10,000+ people. It's worth noting that hurricanes only go up to category 5. This suggests that climate change is going to get so bad that we'll need to add several more categories to it. (Also for context, Hurricane Katrina, the worst hurricane to hit the US in recent memory, 'only' killed around 1,800 people.) As someone who grew up on the gulf coast, that's pretty terrifying.

As someone who has worked retail before, the idea that one day corporations will have 'hurricane sales' but also force their workers to come in and work during category 8 hurricanes is something I find both infuriating and way too believable.

Also, interesting that the complete destruction of Asgard was considered a level 7 cataclysm, but the hurricane in Alabama was level 10. Unless the scale goes backwards?

The report on Ragnarok said only something like 9700 people died on Asgard, apparently. But that's still pretty close to 10000 for it to be 3 levels lower. Maybe the show runners didnt pay a lot of attention, there. And I think Roxxcart must absolutely be owned by Roxxon Corp.

On not meeting the Time Keepers: I think only Mobius said he hadn't met them, Ravonna did not say that- she's probably one of the few who have.

On the agent going catatonic after Loki possessed her: it's possible that these people were not created by the Time Keepers, as they think, but have had their minds altered. Perhaps Loki's mind invasion breaks some of the conditioning they are operating under.

[Excession]

A silly theory:
It's Loki all the way down.

The timekeepers, Mobius, everyone in the TVA. All Loki.

[Starbuck_II]

Mobius will start eating his lunch in his cubicle, and hide the salt and pepper shakers.


Salad might still be good with salt and pepper on it.
Less so with the milk but hey, why not could be a new fad.

[TeChameleon]

Huh.

So, Fem!Loki. Can't really say I expected that, although it's hardly a new thing in the comics or the myths (and the story of Loki turning into a mare is gloriously weird- if memory serves, it was so the Aesir could default on paying the guy that built Asgard. He had a horse, which was something unfamiliar to them, and so was going to make it under the harsh deadline they imposed and thus get full payment, so they had Loki go and turn into a mare to distract the horse so the guy would miss his deadline). Although, unexpected or not, I hate her stupid little mini-horn hat. Way too understated for any Loki (and yes, I know it's a canonical Loki hat. I still hate it).

Roxxcart sure looks like a Roxxon subsidiary... wonder if that means we'll be getting Dario Agger? The Greek Pantheon is supposed to be showing up in the MCU soon, isn't it?

Also, this is just a silly aside, but the look on 'our' Loki's face when he saw Hulk-Loki (Hulki?) was priceless.

[Psyren]

The Loki-possessed redneck was absolutely hilarious, great acting from that fellow.

But I have to wonder--even without his magic, Loki should still be inhumanly stronger and tougher than ordinary Earthfolk. How is he getting tossed around by Redneck Loki? Does the possession impart superhuman strength?


That would be the implication.


A few observations and questions:

Is Roxxcart supposed to be related to Roxxon?

Apparently in 2050, a category 8 hurricane is going to kill 10,000+ people. It's worth noting that hurricanes only go up to category 5. This suggests that climate change is going to get so bad that we'll need to add several more categories to it. (Also for context, Hurricane Katrina, the worst hurricane to hit the US in recent memory, 'only' killed around 1,800 people.) As someone who grew up on the gulf coast, that's pretty terrifying.

As someone who has worked retail before, the idea that one day corporations will have 'hurricane sales' but also force their workers to come in and work during category 8 hurricanes is something I find both infuriating and way too believable.

Also, interesting that the complete destruction of Asgard was considered a level 7 cataclysm, but the hurricane in Alabama was level 10. Unless the scale goes backwards?

Presumably the hurricane killed more?



Also, this is just a silly aside, but the look on 'our' Loki's face when he saw Hulk-Loki (Hulki?) was priceless.

I think that was a troll actually. (Trollki?)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JadedDM
Apparently in 2050, a category 8 hurricane is going to kill 10,000+ people. It's worth noting that hurricanes only go up to category 5. This suggests that climate change is going to get so bad that we'll need to add several more categories to it.

I spotted this too, since I also grew up in that region, so the Category 8 hurricane really leaped out at me.

It does indeed suggest that superhurricanes will become more common as climate change intensifies.


Originally Posted by TeChamelon
…the story of Loki turning into a mare is gloriously weird….

I’m glad someone else remembers this tale, which was one of the first things I ever read about Loki. The MCU hasn’t really leaned into his shapechanging aspects—yes, he’s done a few skins, but none of the real shapechanging.

And while they’ve referenced some of the comics (Thor being turned into a frog, etc.), they’ve avoided mentioning this particular episode from the original mythology. A pity, really.

[Eldan]

I mean, if they think turning into a horse to have sex with another horse is too squicky, they could mention all the times he turns into birds and fish in the myths.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I’m glad someone else remembers this tale, which was one of the first things I ever read about Loki. The MCU hasn’t really leaned into his shapechanging aspects—yes, he’s done a few skins, but none of the real shapechanging.

And while they’ve referenced some of the comics (Thor being turned into a frog, etc.), they’ve avoided mentioning this particular episode from the original mythology. A pity, really.

And wasn’t Odin even riding Slepnir back in the first Thor?

[Ramza00]

And wasn’t Odin even riding Slepnir back in the first Thor?

Yes


Yep in the script the 8 legged horse is mentioned as Sleipnir in directions for the art team but never mentioned by name.

We see Sleipnir not in the narrative flashback of 1300 years ago, but in modern times when Loki convinces Thor and The Warrior Three to crash their party in retaliations for their party getting crashed. Odin shows up, with the 8 legged horse, so if the MCU is like the norse Myth then Odin shows up as Loki's father and Loki's son is also there to chide him in front of Laffey (who is Loki's biological father but he doesn't know that yet.)

AWKARD!!!

[Mordar]

I totally say Enchantress - power set, look, "daughter" of Loki. Totally Sylvie.

- M

[Palanan]

So Marvel has an Enchantress as well?

Never heard of this one before. I suppose it's possible, but until proven, I'll go with the notion that we just have a female version of Loki.

[Rodin]

Ramza's post about the Pride month cover is what decides me. They left Loki off deliberately despite knowing it would spark a controversy, and when they commented on it they only said that it was because of the Loki TV series.

That's very telling to me. They knew that female Loki was coming and didn't want to spoil it by having female Loki on a comic cover right before the TV show aired. The cover that will get released with female Loki comes a week after the reveal. This was planned very carefully, and it casts doubt on the idea that the show character is not Loki.

[Thrudd]

So Marvel has an Enchantress as well?

Never heard of this one before. I suppose it's possible, but until proven, I'll go with the notion that we just have a female version of Loki.

Yes, actually there are two Enchantresses. The original Enchantress is named Amora, and she is an Asgardian sorceress known for seduction, using magically enhanced sexuality. She's a bit like Marvel's version of Poison Ivy, in that she is extremely sexualized and often taking control of some man to do her bidding (and wears all green). She has a sister named Lorelei with much the same shtick, though not using as much magic and more just natural Asgardian sex appeal. The second Enchantress is a creation of Loki, hence his "daughter", named Sylvie. She was a teen character, though, so they did not give her so much of the sexuality/seduction schtick. Both Enchantresses are blond, and whenever Loki takes on a female form in the comics she has black hair just like in the male form. But I do think the TV show character is meant to be a female version of Loki- especially given the fact that they went out of their way to show examples of all the diverse forms of Loki variants. However, making her blond, it's possible they are going to somewhat combine the two: her ability to possess people might be a take on Enchantress' ability to force people to do her bidding. It's also possible her name isn't Loki, because she is an alternate reality version of Loki that was born as a female rather than a shapechanged Loki. Of course, when someone is a shapechanger it's hard to say what their "real" form actually is. They are just them, and perhaps just have a preference for a certain look.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

She has a sister named Lorelei with much the same shtick, though not using as much magic and more just natural Asgardian sex appeal.

Tangent, but Lorelei had an episode in Agents of SHIELD IIRC.

[Thrudd]

Tangent, but Lorelei had an episode in Agents of SHIELD IIRC.

Yes, 1st season, and Sif shows up to catch her. This was back when they still thought they could use the show for tie-ins to the films.

[Sholos]

I mean, if they think turning into a horse to have sex with another horse is too squicky, they could mention all the times he turns into birds and fish in the myths.

In Ragnarok they joke about him turning into a snake.

[Rakaydos]

I mean, if they think turning into a horse to have sex with another horse is too squicky, they could mention all the times he turns into birds and fish in the myths.

It's would probably be more fun to have an "awkward with the Ex" scene with a horselike super that asguard might have interacted with in the past. (like that one constantine/king shark clip)

Is there any marvel cosmic characters who might fit that description?

[Eldan]

I mean, I only know him from when people flipped out over the statue in Ragnarök, but I always thought Beta Ray Bill had a bit of a horse face.

[Clertar]

I mean, if they think turning into a horse to have sex with another horse is too squicky, they could mention all the times he turns into birds and fish in the myths.

Pasiphae would have loved this type of squick.

[Millstone85]

In Ragnarok they joke about him turning into a snake.The whole thing was hilarious.

Thor: Yes, [Loki tried to kill] me too. On many many occasions. There was one time, when we were children, he transformed himself into a snake, and he knows that I love snakes. So, I went to pick up the snake to admire it, and he transformed back into himself, and he was like "Blergh, it's me!". And he stabbed me. We were eight at the time.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Millstone85
The whole thing was hilarious.

The best thing about that scene is Loki grinning at the memory of stabbing Thor. He enjoyed that, and never forgot just how much.

[TeChameleon]

The best thing about that scene is Loki grinning at the memory of stabbing Thor. He enjoyed that, and never forgot just how much.

In all fairness, given their relationship, I can see how stabbing Thor (especially given that Thor doesn't really seem to take any lasting harm from it) would be the gift that just keeps on giving.

[Ramza00]

We are once again trying to Salvage Thor 2 The Dark World


I am not saying this was intentional in 2013 when the movie aired, or the 2 years of setup that occurred before hand.

But the Selvig chalkboard has lots of Marvel places and concepts, plus some physics, when Selvig gives his rant to Stan Lee.

https://youtu.be/I6GXROqxQ7I

Including the “Nexus of all realities” at the bottom of the board, near the midpoint left to right with a little more to the right. Selvig’s body covers it up during lots of the scene but it is right below the number line.

During the alignment, all the MCU is connected!

[Talakeal]

Its funny, but after watching Lucifer and then Loki, Hiddelston just comes across as a poor imitation of Tom Ellis, even though I know its the other way around.

[DigoDragon]

We are once again trying to Salvage Thor 2 The Dark World

That was one of two things I recall from Dark World, and it's a pretty fun scene. Interesting bit there you noticed.

[Thrudd]

I think I was wrong, before, about my ideas regarding the TVA I didn't realize how close the Time Keepers in the show are to the look they have in the comics, which actually don't appear in panels all that often. The one I thought looked exactly like Kang I now don't think is Kang, it actually appears to be a female. If anything, I think Ravonna is actually one of the Time Keepers (possibly the only one left?), since they have made such a point of showing the one female looking Time Keeper always in the center of the three, centered in the shot, right before we see her. I still think Kang is definitely going to get involved with the TVA in upcoming MCU films. Possibly he is going to fight the TVA with his own time army, like in the comics, or he is going to take over the TVA through a relationship with Ravonna or by defeating her and replacing her. I doubt it happens in the course of this show.

[Wookieetank]

I think I was wrong, before, about my ideas regarding the TVA I didn't realize how close the Time Keepers in the show are to the look they have in the comics, which actually don't appear in panels all that often. The one I thought looked exactly like Kang I now don't think is Kang, it actually appears to be a female. If anything, I think Ravonna is actually one of the Time Keepers (possibly the only one left?), since they have made such a point of showing the one female looking Time Keeper always in the center of the three, centered in the shot, right before we see her. I still think Kang is definitely going to get involved with the TVA in upcoming MCU films. Possibly he is going to fight the TVA with his own time army, like in the comics, or he is going to take over the TVA through a relationship with Ravonna or by defeating her and replacing her. I doubt it happens in the course of this show.

Maybe Lady Loki is working with Kang, or at least someone. Her whole line about "Sometimes its not about you" has me wildly wondering who it is about then. Which has me thinking she's either working for someone, or she's not an alternate Loki, so much as a relative/descendant.

Whatever the bigger picture is, I'm impatiently waiting for tomorrow and more Loki.

[DigoDragon]

Maybe Lady Loki is working with Kang, or at least someone. Her whole line about "Sometimes its not about you" has me wildly wondering who it is about then. Which has me thinking she's either working for someone, or she's not an alternate Loki, so much as a relative/descendant.

I was considering that the three time keepers don't really have to look like anyone-- they could just be symbols like "Big Brother" and really the being behind the curtain looks nothing like that.

I like the idea that Kang the Conqueror is behind this; using the TVA to ensure that his future empire is uncontested. The TVA employees are told it's a "work in progress" and there's a twisted truth to it.

Wednesday cannot get here fast enough. :3

[Talakeal]

I wonder how Dr Strange’s looking into 14 million possible futures works when there is only one sacred timeline.


Do any comic book lore nerds know if there is any relation between the Timebroker / Timebreaker from the Exiles comic and the Time Keepers? They seem to fulfill very similar roles and its weird that they would never bump into one another.

[GloatingSwine]

I wonder how Dr Strange’s looking into 14 million possible futures works when there is only one sacred timeline.


That's why there was only one where they could win. Of course.

[Wookieetank]

I was considering that the three time keepers don't really have to look like anyone-- they could just be symbols like "Big Brother" and really the being behind the curtain looks nothing like that.

I like the idea that Kang the Conqueror is behind this; using the TVA to ensure that his future empire is uncontested. The TVA employees are told it's a "work in progress" and there's a twisted truth to it.

Wednesday cannot get here fast enough. :3

Oooh nice, I like both of these. I'm also curious to see what part Miss Minutes will play in things, since we now know she's more than just a mascot.

[Rodin]

That's why there was only one where they could win. Of course.

I wonder whether the Timekeepers are curating the best result, or if they're just looking for a result that doesn't wind up with inter-dimensional warfare.

Let's say the rat sleeps in that morning. Ant-man never comes back from the quantum realm, half the universe stays dead. Is that an acceptable result?

Let's say Captain Marvel is 5 minutes later to the big battle in Endgame. Thanos gets the glove and re-snaps, wiping out the universe and becoming God Emperor of a new one. Is that an acceptable result?

Neither has time travelers mucking about in it. It's just a slight difference in the timing that causes a radically different timeline. Does the TVA come in and prune the variant rat? Do they reset bomb Captain Marvel until she shows up on time?

How much are they meddling with the actual timelines as opposed to just wiping out those which come about via time travel?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

That's why there was only one where they could win. Of course.

That makes a lot of sense. It allows for hundreds of possibilities where the heroes could have done X, Y and Z to win but the TVA shows up to reset everything because the result didn’t match their arbitrary standard for how the timeline was ‘supposed’ to turn out.

[GloatingSwine]

How much are they meddling with the actual timelines as opposed to just wiping out those which come about via time travel?

The main timeline proceeded because of time travel, but it was "supposed to happen".

The TVA don't seem to be thinking about the "best" timeline, their perspective is alien from the universe they're overseeing, they're there to preserve the correct timeline from the perspective of the timekeepers.

[ben-zayb]

I'm not sure how to feel about Disney finding an out for many "why didn't X just did Y?" question with a justification that such scenario may go against the sacred timeline, prompting the TVA to just reset such reality and replacing its variant.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm not sure how to feel about Disney finding an out for many "why didn't X just did Y?" question with a justification that such scenario may go against the sacred timeline, prompting the TVA to just reset such reality and replacing its variant.

Heh, they don't need an out for it, they're monetising it in the "What If....?" series.

[Rodin]

The main timeline proceeded because of time travel, but it was "supposed to happen".

The TVA don't seem to be thinking about the "best" timeline, their perspective is alien from the universe they're overseeing, they're there to preserve the correct timeline from the perspective of the timekeepers.

Right, but what forms that perspective? Do the Timekeepers care if Thanos wins or not? They're supposedly working tirelessly to form the future. What value judgements are they making? Are they allowed to interfere only if there's time travel, or are they influencing the natural flow of events to form a narrative that is pleasing to themselves?

The whole thing gets more sinister the more I think about it. I'm betting the Timekeepers don't come out of this series smelling of roses.

[GloatingSwine]

Right, but what forms that perspective? Do the Timekeepers care if Thanos wins or not? They're supposedly working tirelessly to form the future. What value judgements are they making? Are they allowed to interfere only if there's time travel, or are they influencing the natural flow of events to form a narrative that is pleasing to themselves?

The whole thing gets more sinister the more I think about it. I'm betting the Timekeepers don't come out of this series smelling of roses.

I'm going for "pleasing to themselves" along some axis that completely discounts the concepts of mortal morality. That's why the TVA has such strong bureaucracy vibes, it's shorthand for the crushing of the individual in favour of following the process. (Oh hey, they're in a series about the god of not doing that, fancy).

That or the timekeepers either are all long dead or never existed in the first place or both. It's all very YoRHa. Glory to Mankind.

[Thrudd]

I wonder how Dr Strange’s looking into 14 million possible futures works when there is only one sacred timeline.


Do any comic book lore nerds know if there is any relation between the Timebroker / Timebreaker from the Exiles comic and the Time Keepers? They seem to fulfill very similar roles and its weird that they would never bump into one another.

No, they are totally different. X-Men's time travel shenanigans don't usually run into F4 and Avengers time travel shenanigans for some reason. The films and shows are running into the same issues as the comics always have, with many writers working on many projects simultaneously, and I think Feige and the rest are just deciding to lean into the wackiness instead of trying to preserve a single coherent universe.

So basically, just because we are in one universe where there's a "sacred timeline" being maintained doesn't mean there still arent other universes- a single "universe" might have multiple variable timelines, and other similar universes with their own set of possible timelines, which could also run into each other if the writers want. Possibly different universes even have different rules of physics and time travel. It's mostly down to the fact that the writers don't all get on the same page about how time travel and multiverse work, and maybe there's no one involved who is clear enough on the subject to keep it all straight. I think Professor Hulk's attitude in Endgame is pretty much the vibe they're going for: like nobody's really sure what's going on or what could happen, it' just "Time Travel!". Don't think about it too hard!

That said, what Strange saw from his point in time might have been prior to the creation of the TVA- so he was seeing every possibility before the Time Keepers decided to prune the timeline down to the one where they come into power.

And all these different time traveling factions and competing timelines and universes are in the end under the umbrella of more ultimate powers, like the cosmic abstract entities which I think we might get in the films eventually.

[theNater]

I'm betting the Timekeepers don't come out of this series smelling of roses.
Recall from episode 1 that one way to become a variant is to be late for work. For that, one can be put on trial with no defending attorney, and the penalty when found guilty is death. They didn't come into the series smelling of roses.

[Zalabim]

I was guilty of this too, so I should like to make an official retraction. It's quite clear that variants are a natural occurrence. It doesn't have to be from time travel. However, time travel almost always does cause a variance.

Also, I still think the metaphysical setup is like I described for endgame. A bunch of broadly similar universes where the same important things all happen the same way, but minor details can change or be irrelevant. So only major deviations have to be controlled. There may still be completely different timelines beyond the red lines, and the point of pruning is to keep them from crossing and interacting with the sacred timeline. Intentional temporal distancing. Outside those lines there could be temporal chaos raging, or nothing at all.

[DigoDragon]

That's why there was only one where they could win. Of course.

I find this to be a bit of fridge brilliance.



I'm also curious to see what part Miss Minutes will play in things, since we now know she's more than just a mascot.

I was tickled that even she didn't know when asked about her nature. I'm not getting my hopes up that she'll have a bigger role, but I'm hoping for at least a few more minute appearances.



Heh, they don't need an out for it, they're monetizing it in the "What If....?" series.

I'm hoping that turns out good. I remember a few of the comic books were interesting.

[Hopeless]

Well Ravonna ends up comatose if we use other animated series introductions of Kang if that helps.

Why Lady Loki instead of the Enchantress?

TVA does make mistakes why not reveal picking up Loki in ep1 was one of them?

[Rakaydos]

Well Ravonna ends up comatose if we use other animated series introductions of Kang if that helps.

Why Lady Loki instead of the Enchantress?

TVA does make mistakes why not reveal picking up Loki in ep1 was one of them?

Note that the TVA calls her a Loki variant, but she doesnt like the name Loki. She's probably going to pick up the Enchantress name over the series.

(it also feels like Frigga is almost as bad as Loki at making "wrong" choices, but is much better at hiding them from the TVA, in there are that many different adopted species that became a Loki variant)

[ben-zayb]

There's a lot to unpack here, but the most relevant plotwise appears to be the TVA being made up of memory-wiped variants. Plenty of people already called it because it just made sense, especially once Mobius starts showing attachment to 90s drink and jet skiing.

This also makes me think that Sylvie herself may be a rogue ex-TVA agent herself, what with her having hazy memories too. Loki becoming her replacement as TVA agent if he succeeds cracking the Sylvie case may even be what Mobius was referring to as better than salvation.

I still feel like this episode is the weakest as far as plot progression and tension goes, and much of it was carried by Loki and Sylvie's chemistry.

[GloatingSwine]

This also makes me think that Sylvie herself may be a rogue ex-TVA agent herself, what with her having hazy memories too. Loki becoming her replacement as TVA agent if he succeeds cracking the Sylvie case may even be what Mobius was referring to as better than salvation.

Yeah, I'm thinking she's actually not a Loki at all. Any potential timeline where Frigga didn't survive until she was "supposed" to die would have been pruned before a potential Loki it spawned could have gotten this far.

I'm pretty sure that the timepad they need to get away from this apocalypse moon is not only not broken but also not even out of batteries, that's a trick and no god of mischief would fall for it. Loki is playing Sylvie until she tells him what he wants to know about the Timekeepers (how to get to them).

I'm still going for the Timekeepers possibly never having existed at all, especially now it's confirmed that the TVA is made of variants and not created by them.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

This also makes me think that Sylvie herself may be a rogue ex-TVA agent herself, what with her having hazy memories too. Loki becoming her replacement as TVA agent if he succeeds cracking the Sylvie case may even be what Mobius was referring to as better than salvation.

That would explain how her file showed up earlier despite them not being able to catch her before this, not to mention how she’s been dodging their agents so well.

[Palanan]

Absolutely loved this one.

Probably the single best episode of anything I’ve seen on Disney+ so far, in terms of sheer enjoyment and pizazz.



Sylvie is fantastic, and she plays superbly off our Loki. I especially enjoy the contrast in their accents.

Perfect chemistry between them, especially when discussing their respective adoptions. There’s a subtle sense that beneath the layers of gaming and deception, each of them wants that connection with someone else who understands the experience.

Does anyone happen to know what language Loki was singing during his solo? It sounded faintly Gaelic, but given the singer I'm wondering if it’s Norwegian, or even Old Norse.

Also, "Another!" was beyond hilarious. I'm sure Tom Hiddleston has been wanting to do that for ten years now.

It’s tempting to assume Loki is playing Sylvie by faking the tempad’s destruction—and it would be perfectly in character for him—but he looked really, really wrecked after seeing the Ark destroyed.

Sylvie had already walked away, so I'm not sure why he'd be faking that.

Did anyone notice Private Hudson and Corporal Hicks in the credits?

:smallbiggrin:

[Silent Hunter]

Norwegian with a thick accent according to Reddit.

[Rakaydos]

So, she is Sylvie now. Loki is a deadname to her.

I haven't seen any "anti-woke" bull**** about it yet, probably because of how lightly they are touching on it. But she is also the first to touch on Loki attracting would be princes as well as princesses. She knows what she is.

[Thrudd]

Absolutely loved this one.

Probably the single best episode of anything I’ve seen on Disney+ so far, in terms of sheer enjoyment and pizazz.
It’s tempting to assume Loki is playing Sylvie by faking the tempad’s destruction—and it would be perfectly in character for him—but he looked really, really wrecked after seeing the Ark destroyed.

Sylvie had already walked away, so I'm not sure why he'd be faking that.

:smallbiggrin:[/SPOILER]

My first thought is that he actually wanted to save some people from this apocalypse. He is trying out being heroic instead of a villain, choosing who he is and what he wants ala his convo with Mobius in ep.1. I also assume he is holding back from Sylvie and that the time pad is not destroyed, or that he possibly still has the tesseract, and it will work now that they arent in the TVA.

Also, I called it RE the TVA workers not being created by the Time Keepers. The signs were there. I wonder if Sylvie's power will allow them to recover their old memories, and she might precipitate an uprising from within. Her plan might be to restore all the timelines that were pruned so everyone can go back to their own worlds and lives, or at least some form of normal life, freed from the tyranny of the Time Keepers.

[DigoDragon]

I haven't seen any "anti-woke" bull**** about it yet, probably because of how lightly they are touching on it. But she is also the first to touch on Loki attracting would be princes as well as princesses. She knows what she is.

I dunno. Loki has got some fair universal attractiveness within that dashing rogue look of his. I think she only said what others were thinking for a few years. :smalltongue:



It’s tempting to assume Loki is playing Sylvie by faking the tempad’s destruction—and it would be perfectly in character for him—but he looked really, really wrecked after seeing the Ark destroyed.

Sylvie had already walked away, so I'm not sure why he'd be faking that.

My first thought is that he actually wanted to save some people from this apocalypse. He is trying out being heroic instead of a villain, choosing who he is and what he wants ala his convo with Mobius in ep.1. I also assume he is holding back from Sylvie and that the time pad is not destroyed, or that he possibly still has the tesseract, and it will work now that they arent in the TVA.

My first idea after the Tempad was broken was that Loki would hijack the Ark and do something significant enough that it would leave a clue in a file somewhere in the TVA records for Mobius to find and then mount a rescue.

And then rocks fall and the ship exploded. :smalleek:

I don't think that Loki would go this far in playing out a ruse on Sylvie. Faking the timepad not being broken still leaves the issue that it needs a recharge and they don't have that. I feel that Loki would use the tesseract to take Sylvie someplace where he had more control, rather than risk his life here for a bit of info. I dunno. As Sylvie noted, Loki doesn't seem to be the long-term planning type. I'm still holding out that Mobius will find him.

[Joran]

My first idea after the Tempad was broken was that Loki would hijack the Ark and do something significant enough that it would leave a clue in a file somewhere in the TVA records for Mobius to find and then mount a rescue.

And then rocks fall and the ship exploded. :smalleek:

I don't think that Loki would go this far in playing out a ruse on Sylvie. Faking the timepad not being broken still leaves the issue that it needs a recharge and they don't have that. I feel that Loki would use the tesseract to take Sylvie someplace where he had more control, rather than risk his life here for a bit of info. I dunno. As Sylvie noted, Loki doesn't seem to be the long-term planning type. I'm still holding out that Mobius will find him.


Lokis' plan was to hijack the Ark and have them survive the apocalypse; that would lead to a huge deviation (everyone is supposed to die) and the TVA would come to prune the timeline. Although I'm not sure what kind of resources the TVA has left at this moment to investigate another branch, given the bombings.



The episode is Sylvie enchanting Loki after they got to the planet and everything is a fake memory she implanted into him.

[The Glyphstone]

There's a lot to unpack here, but the most relevant plotwise appears to be the TVA being made up of memory-wiped variants. Plenty of people already called it because it just made sense, especially once Mobius starts showing attachment to 90s drink and jet skiing.

This also makes me think that Sylvie herself may be a rogue ex-TVA agent herself, what with her having hazy memories too. Loki becoming her replacement as TVA agent if he succeeds cracking the Sylvie case may even be what Mobius was referring to as better than salvation.

I still feel like this episode is the weakest as far as plot progression and tension goes, and much of it was carried by Loki and Sylvie's chemistry.

If this is true, maybe it explains Ravonna's resistance to Moebius trying to recruit Loki in the first place? Obviously if Sylvie is a renegade agent the Time Keepers would erase peoples memory of her, but maybe Ravonna is high enough in hierarchy to know the truth? She's not just seeing Loki as a disaster waiting to happen , she is seeing it for the 2nd time and no one else remembers.

[JadedDM]

This also makes me think that Sylvie herself may be a rogue ex-TVA agent herself, what with her having hazy memories too. Loki becoming her replacement as TVA agent if he succeeds cracking the Sylvie case may even be what Mobius was referring to as better than salvation.
One thing to note, though; when Sylvie first entered the TVA, she tried to enchant a guard. It didn't work, because magic doesn't work in the TVA (as previously established). She seemed surprised by this. If she were a former TVA agent, one would think she would have already known this.


Does anyone happen to know what language Loki was singing during his solo? It sounded faintly Gaelic, but given the singer I'm wondering if it’s Norwegian, or even Old Norse.
According to the captions, it was Asgardian.

Some questions:
Do you think Lamentis is the name given to the moon before or after it will be destroyed? Because if before, woof, that's some foreshadowing. Imagine being born on and spending your whole life on a world named Lament.

Also, what species were the people living on it? Kree? They all spoke perfect English, so...who even knows?

[Psyren]

One thing to note, though; when Sylvie first entered the TVA, she tried to enchant a guard. It didn't work, because magic doesn't work in the TVA (as previously established). She seemed surprised by this. If she were a former TVA agent, one would think she would have already known this.

I wondered about this too. In the comics,
"Sylvie" was manipulated by someone - Old Loki as it turns out - to overthrow Asgard. Old Loki's mission was remarkably similar to that of the timekeepers, keeping the timeline strictly controlled so that he himself would come into being. I wonder if something similar is happening here too.

[Thrudd]

The episode is Sylvie enchanting Loki after they got to the planet and everything is a fake memory she implanted into him.


I think you're right. They chose to show us the scene in the beginning with Sylvie and the TVA agent for a reason. Foreshadowing. However, I think it will partly backfire and Loki is going to get into her mind, a bit, too. They'll be linked and understand each other instead of her just being in control.

[theNater]

Also, I called it RE the TVA workers not being created by the Time Keepers. The signs were there. I wonder if Sylvie's power will allow them to recover their old memories, and she might precipitate an uprising from within. Her plan might be to restore all the timelines that were pruned so everyone can go back to their own worlds and lives, or at least some form of normal life, freed from the tyranny of the Time Keepers.
Given her enthusiasm for killing TVA Agents, I don't think letting them go back to their own lives is a key factor in her motivations.



The episode is Sylvie enchanting Loki after they got to the planet and everything is a fake memory she implanted into him.

It's all a Loki illusion. He shifted them to a safe(ish) place and created a Lamentis-1 façade.

[Soepvork]

The episode is Sylvie enchanting Loki after they got to the planet and everything is a fake memory she implanted into him.


I am 99% certain one of them is playing the other. The questions is, has Sylvie enchanted Loki or has Loki trapped Sylvie in an illusion?

[DigoDragon]

I wondered about this too. In the comics,
"Sylvie" was manipulated by someone - Old Loki as it turns out - to overthrow Asgard. Old Loki's mission was remarkably similar to that of the timekeepers, keeping the timeline strictly controlled so that he himself would come into being. I wonder if something similar is happening here too.

So is this like the old show, The Prisoner? Number One turns out to be an old Loki in control of the TVA? It's Loki all the way down? :3

...ok well I wouldn't have seen that one coming if accurate.



I am 99% certain one of them is playing the other. The questions is, has Sylvie enchanted Loki or has Loki trapped Sylvie in an illusion?

Well we can add my wife to the 'Loki is playing Sylvie' group. She think Loki fancies her/ her powers and wants to know how she came about.

I'll stick with the idea that neither of them know what they're doing and have been just winging it on Lamentis-1