Making a staff fighter

[Waazraath]

How would you do it? Pre-Tasha, I'd say it was (mechanically) a most sub-optimal choice for most builds, bar shillelagh-shennenigans or monks (who would even then make half their attacks unarmed). Classes like fighter would always prefer glaives or halberds, utilizing PAM (reach and more damage) and GWM.

Tasha's has the crusher feat though, arguably the best of the three 'damage type' feats: a little bit of battlefield control, with an occasional strong buff (all attacks advantage for one round). The 'push 5 ft back' feature of crusher has nice synergy with PAM, forcing enemies to walk again into range (and triggering another reaction attack), as long as the enemy has no more than 5 ft reach. Other polearms can't use this (cause they are either piercing or slashing).

Put on the fighter chassis, that allows a lot of attacks. Nothing game breaking but fun, at least in the first 2 tiers. Many subclasses are possible, even champion (more crits), battle master (for doing stuff with a staff you see in kung fu movies, tripping and disarming and the like), or psi warrior (psi powered leap being a powerful option to quickly close the distance, an option many melee builds miss).

Fighting style would be probably defense (even though a bit boring), and other ASI's used to max str, con, and to get res (wis).

How would you build a melee warrior wielding a quarterstaff?

[Cikomyr2]

My Warlock got his hands on a cracked Staff of Power early on in his career. Not really used it yet, but he will get +1d10 force damage to any attack when used with 2 hands.

I ran many scenarios in my head:

- Polearm Master for the free AoO on people getting close to me, and the extra Bonus Action attack
- Crusher for free movement of enemies around
- Sentinel to stop movement of enemies. So if I hit someone with an AoO, I can not only push them, I can also immobilize them AWAY from me.

Overall, sounds like a really fun "control the battlefield" melee combattant and I am hoping I get to try it out by focusing more on martial abilities.

[x3n0n]

How would you do it? Pre-Tasha, I'd say it was (mechanically) a most sub-optimal choice for most builds, bar shillelagh-shennenigans or monks (who would even then make half their attacks unarmed). Classes like fighter would always prefer glaives or halberds, utilizing PAM (reach and more damage) and GWM.

Tasha's has the crusher feat though, arguably the best of the three 'damage type' feats: a little bit of battlefield control, with an occasional strong buff (all attacks advantage for one round). The 'push 5 ft back' feature of crusher has nice synergy with PAM, forcing enemies to walk again into range (and triggering another reaction attack), as long as the enemy has no more than 5 ft reach. Other polearms can't use this (cause they are either piercing or slashing).

Put on the fighter chassis, that allows a lot of attacks. Nothing game breaking but fun, at least in the first 2 tiers. Many subclasses are possible, even champion (more crits), battle master (for doing stuff with a staff you see in kung fu movies, tripping and disarming and the like), or psi warrior (psi powered leap being a powerful option to quickly close the distance, an option many melee builds miss).

Fighting style would be probably defense (even though a bit boring), and other ASI's used to max str, con, and to get res (wis).

How would you build a melee warrior wielding a quarterstaff?

Since you used your reaction for the PAM opportunity attack, you don't get a second one, do you? However, I think it is another variant of the PAM/Sentinel synergy, if you're willing to put 3 ASIs into it.

I'd probably just start with PAM, Dueling (staff and shield), then Crusher with first ASI, assuming an odd score. Dueling pays you a lot for the extra PAM attack while letting you have a very good AC with a shield. Per the other ongoing thread, unless you have some external source of advantage, crit-fishing with Champion probably isn't worth it.

EK with Fey Touched (Hex) might well be worth it, though.
Paladin loves PAM for the BA attack as another trigger for Divine Smite, Divine Favor, and Improved Divine Smite.
The odd Str-Ranger might like it for chances to connect with Hunter's Mark. (Or even the Shillelagh shenanigans you were talking about earlier via Druidic Warrior, although you're giving up the powerful fighting styles to get it, or using a feat or a Druid level.)

[ImproperJustice]

I think I would try a Fey Wanderer, Druidic Warrior style with Shillelagh, and all in on Wisdom.

Play around with things like Zephyr Strike, and in the late game, throw out things like Primal Guardian and Steel Wind Strike.


And you could still do cool stuff outside combat.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I was thinking on how to optimize for static damage bonus and 3+ attacks. Best thing I have found was Barbarian 1 / Fighter X with PAM, Dueling and Staff/Spear. Assuming STR 18.

Staff: (1d6 + 8) x2 + (1d4 + 8) = 32.5 avg
Glaive: (1d10 + 6) x2 + (1d4 + 6) = 30.5 avg

And by using a staff/spear you have a free hand to grapple or hold a shield.

[Waazraath]

Thnx!

2 more things I forgot to mention in the OP:

- staff + shield is out; I know it's within the rules, I just dislike the esthetics too much.
- another big advantage of the staff (compared to halberds and glaives) is that it has magical items that support the style (staff of striking, staff of thunder & lightning, and with a 1 lvl caster dip staff of power, the magi and withering).

[Droppeddead]

I think I would try a Fey Wanderer, Druidic Warrior style with Shillelagh, and all in on Wisdom.

That's a weird way to build a Fighter that doesn't use Shillileagh. ;)

Back on track, I'd say this build isn't to different from a regular glaive/halberd build but it's a nice and interesting twist on it. PAM is cool since it gives you a Bonus Action. Sentinel is good but not necessary, I'd go for Crusher first.

I also love the aesthetics of a fully armoured warrior wielding just a massive quarter staff. :) Especially if it's one of the more "intellectual" fighter subclasses like BM or Psi Warrior. "I am a master of every weapon. I can kill in a thousand ways. But to kill you, all I need is a stick."

[Kane0]

Psi Warrior + Crusher would make for some fun movement efffects using your quarterstaff, and PAM/Sentinel adds extra reaction attack goodness if you want to lean into that too.

[JackPhoenix]

How would you do it? Pre-Tasha, I'd say it was (mechanically) a most sub-optimal choice for most builds, bar shillelagh-shennenigans or monks (who would even then make half their attacks unarmed). Classes like fighter would always prefer glaives or halberds, utilizing PAM (reach and more damage) and GWM.

Pre-Tasha, it was still considered the best way to make sword (stick) and board character. PAM worked with the quarterstaff since 5e started, later they've added spear. You've missed out on GWM, but if you were planning to use a shield, damage wasn't your priority anyway.

It was, mechanically, the most optimal choice for anyone who wanted to use a shield.

[sophontteks]

I think I would try a Fey Wanderer, Druidic Warrior style with Shillelagh, and all in on Wisdom.

Play around with things like Zephyr Strike, and in the late game, throw out things like Primal Guardian and Steel Wind Strike.


And you could still do cool stuff outside combat.
I'd second this. The defense fighting style gives 1 AC. I'd prefer getting free guidance over that. Dueling is more competitive, but if it's off the table I think this is the better route.

Fey wanderers fit the atheistic well. You get movement bonuses, expertise, and crazy high social skills. With mobile you can really represent a skirmishing fighter well.

[diplomancer]

It's hard to beat Shillelagh if you want to have a staff; not only it's an increase in weapon damage, it makes the damage magical AND it allows you to focus on Wis, which is almost always a better investment than Str.

Custom lineage; Dex 14, Con 15, Wis 17 Other stats to taste 10 8 8.

Initial feat: PAM. Fighter to 5 (Rune Knight?), get Crusher, raise Con; Ranger to 3 (what subclass? First I'd think off is gloomstalker, but others might be better, I don't know; Swarmkeeper, specially with your focus on Wis, is a great control option, allowing you to move your opponent up to 20 feet with Crusher, but still not sure it beats all the Gloomstalker goodness), Druidic FS. Get Fighter 6 and Ranger 4 to max Wis (Resilient wis at Fighter 6, +2 Wis at Ranger 4). Continue with Fighter.

You could also just go Ranger of course, but then eventually you will be relying a lot on spells and losing a bit that "master of the staff" flavour. 4 levels of Ranger will basically give you a few Hunter Mark uses, which,like Shillelagh, does not feel so much as a spell as a special martial ability (so much so that a nerfed version of it WAS given to Rangers without it being a spell).

Edit: hmm, just realized this doesn't quite work, as you can't use your Dex for the staff before switching to Wis at CL7; will have to think a bit more about it. You can always get Ranger 2 immediately (using a Rapier at level 1) but delaying extra attack will be painful for levels 5 and 6. Still probably the best way to make it work; only two "bad" levels after all, and after that you are gold.

Too bad you can't "swap" feats at ASI levels, or you could start with Magic Initiate, get PAM at 4, and swap it out for Crusher (and add Res Wis) at Fighter 6, right after getting Ranger 2. Progression would go Fighter 5, Ranger 2, Fighter 6, Ranger 4, Fighter+.

[Waazraath]

Pre-Tasha, it was still considered the best way to make sword (stick) and board character. PAM worked with the quarterstaff since 5e started, later they've added spear. You've missed out on GWM, but if you were planning to use a shield, damage wasn't your priority anyway.

It was, mechanically, the most optimal choice for anyone who wanted to use a shield.

Yeah, but as I said, shield + staff is a no-go for me. Shield & spear was a cool addition with the errata, but that doesn't work with crusher.




I also love the aesthetics of a fully armoured warrior wielding just a massive quarter staff. :) Especially if it's one of the more "intellectual" fighter subclasses like BM or Psi Warrior. "I am a master of every weapon. I can kill in a thousand ways. But to kill you, all I need is a stick."

Yeah, that's nice!

[Man_Over_Game]

Important question: Is the Echo Knight allowed?

[Waazraath]

Important question: Is the Echo Knight allowed?

Yeah, sure! One of the few books with player options I don't own, but definitely curious what people cook up with it!

[Man_Over_Game]

With Sentinel + PAM, you could lock down two different zones and then reposition yourself with a BA for whichever direction the opponent would want to approach from. You could even do something like send your Echo behind the enemy, hit a combatant into your team, and then swap places with the Echo to prevent any retreat/advance (as moving with the Echo doesn't provoke OA's during its move or the teleport-swap).

Or push the enemies together from two different directions so that they're bunched up for an AoE spell from the party Wizard.

Echo Knight + Utility (any combat utility) just kinda breaks any expectations of "the boring Fighter". A few Giants and I pieced together a build that used 3 levels of Echo Knight and going down Ancestral Guardian, and while we never got to actually play it, it looked like an obnoxious, cackling nightmare. Not OP, but still extremely oppressive.

I'm a big proponent of the Echo Knight. When you have an extremely stable and boring foundation (the Attack Action), it means that you can afford some risk to do some really weird ****.

[nickl_2000]

I'd second this. The defense fighting style gives 1 AC. I'd prefer getting free guidance over that. Dueling is more competitive, but if it's off the table I think this is the better route.

Fey wanderers fit the atheistic well. You get movement bonuses, expertise, and crazy high social skills. With mobile you can really represent a skirmishing fighter well.

This is very similar to what I am doing on my next character. Shillelagh and Guidance as a Beastmaster Ranger. I chose beastmaster to get more interference on the battlefield and the Tasha's beast uses you spell attack to hit (i.e. Wisdom focused build). Since I use my bonus action to guide the beast, I don't need as many combat spells and can focus on out of combat utility and battlefield control on the Ranger that I wouldn't have space for otherwise.

[Waazraath]

With Sentinel + PAM, you could lock down two different zones and then reposition yourself with a BA for whichever direction the opponent would want to approach from. You could even do something like send your Echo behind the enemy, hit a combatant into your team, and then swap places with the Echo to prevent any retreat/advance (as moving with the Echo doesn't provoke OA's during its move or the teleport-swap).

Or push the enemies together from two different directions so that they're bunched up for an AoE spell from the party Wizard.

Echo Knight + Utility (any combat utility) just kinda breaks any expectations of "the boring Fighter". A few Giants and I pieced together a build that used 3 levels of Echo Knight and going down Ancestral Guardian, and while we never got to actually play it, it looked like an obnoxious, cackling nightmare. Not OP, but still extremely oppressive.

I'm a big proponent of the Echo Knight. When you have an extremely stable and boring foundation (the Attack Action), it means that you can afford some risk to do some really weird ****.

Sounds good. Sidetrack: would you say the mechanical options in Wildemouth justify spending 50 euro's on it?

[solidork]

I've always wanted to play a Cavalier staff fighter ever since I noticed that a lot of the abilities match the fantasy of someone using a staff. It makes sense that your long staff can help defend those near you, punish someone who doesn't focus on you, make the area around you difficult to move in and trip people.

At 18th level you turn into a whirling hurricane of blows that stop people in their tracks.

[Delnatha]

It would be cool if you had a rune knight fighter with a level of a spell class and a staff of the magi. You could use giant might to grow to large size, then use enlarge from the staff to become huge sized. That would mean you could use the crusher feat to smack creatures of gargantuan size and still be able to move them.

But these are just the strange crazy ideas I come up with.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sounds good. Sidetrack: would you say the mechanical options in Wildemouth justify spending 50 euro's on it?

You basically get:

Races:

Druid Elves
Aquaman
Druid Halflings
Brute OR Bard Dragonborn
Firbolgs
Assimar
Arrokokra
Goblins
Bugbears
Kenku
Orcs
Tabaxi
Tortles
Revenants



Subclasses:

Echo Knight (makes a shadow clone you can fight and swap with)
Time Wizard (support version of War Wizard)
Gravity Wizard (less-generic version of the Time Wizard)



Spells:

Lots of general purpose utility, a hidden gem of a section that doesn't get much notice.



It really depends on how much 50 euros is worth to you, but I'd say that, while it has less content, the stuff you get is better than most of the stuff in Xanathar's. All of the generic stuff is stuff that your players will feel make a notable impact (increasing Initiative for yourself or allies, cast Immovable [Object] as a level 2 spell, adding obstacles to combat, etc.).

Even stuff like "Super simple support Wizard" or "Overly complex Fighter" are actually a blessing, because it fills a niche that's otherwise untapped. Comparatively, the Samurai is effectively a Champion/Battlemaster hybrid (which, themselves, are "Generic + Simple" and "Generic + Complex"), and it's basically used as a substitute for players that want to enjoy Champion but feel bad because it stinks.

The samurai is "bad generic", the kind that we already have access to and can duplicate with minimal effort.

And Xan's is full of Samurais.

[JellyPooga]

I've always liked the notion of a "Humble Paladin" staff-fighter. Whether you're wielding a halberd or a big stick makes little difference when your primary damage output is from Smite. Throw in a Barbarian dip to bump damage up a little and forgo the heavy armour and you can go full Vow of Poverty/Humility wearing nothing but your tunic and a holy symbol.

[Droppeddead]

I've always liked the notion of a "Humble Paladin" staff-fighter. Whether you're wielding a halberd or a big stick makes little difference when your primary damage output is from Smite. Throw in a Barbarian dip to bump damage up a little and forgo the heavy armour and you can go full Vow of Poverty/Humility wearing nothing but your tunic and a holy symbol.

Who needs a tunic when you have body paint and/or tattoos? ;)