Combat with giant ants

[Roninblack]

I will be running this module https://thetrove.is/reader.html?file=https%3A%2F%2Fthetrove.is%2FBooks %2FNecromancer%2520-%2520Frog%2520God%2520Games%2FDungeons%2520%2526%2 520Dragons%2520-%25205th%2520Edition%2F5E%2520-%2520Necromancer%2520Games%2520-%2520Quests%2520of%2520Doom%25201%2520Volume%25202 .pdf next weekend adapted for 3.5 (basically just using 3.5 stats and turning bombers into additional warrior ants). I'm trying to figure out how the mechanics behind their tactics work.

The basic idea is that the giant ants grapple their foes, pin them and then kill them. So I think that looks like up to 4 ants capable of grappling a single medium creature. Then they all? make pin checks while the other ants around the opponent attack it to death?

1. once they establish a grapple should every ant attempt to pin every round?

2. If a warrior establishes a grapple it can attempt to sting each round, it looks like this is an attack roll, not a grapple check correct?

3. In regards to improved grab, it looks like it can only be used on creatures smaller than the ants, so the halfling might be in trouble but against mediums they can either make a bite attack or a grapple attempt?

4. If improved grab works, does the warrior ant make a successful bite attack, do damage, make a successful grapple check, do damage, and then get a sting attempt?

5. Is a sting attempt a separate attack in a grapple, so warriors can either bite or sting but not both?

6. do giant ants benefit from flanking, being mindless creatures?

7. do giant ants get a bonus to grapple an opponent who is already grappled by other ants?

8. Grapple says that if you manage to escape you move to a space adjacent to your opponent, what happens if there is no unoccupied space, do you move through the crowd until you reach an unoccupied space?

9. How big do you think tunnels should be inside the hive? 5 feet in most places occasionally forcing squeezing rules, or standard tunnel is 10 ft. across? I am not sure what size to make them.

Sorry for all of the questions, and thank you for any advice!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I will be running this module -snip- next weekend adapted for 3.5 (basically just using 3.5 stats and turning bombers into additional warrior ants). I'm trying to figure out how the mechanics behind their tactics work.

The basic idea is that the giant ants grapple their foes, pin them and then kill them. So I think that looks like up to 4 ants capable of grappling a single medium creature. Then they all? make pin checks while the other ants around the opponent attack it to death?

You can, indeed, have up to 4 foes grappling a single target. It's really not a good place to be.

Given the simple-minded (technically mindless) nature of the creatures, I wouldn't expect them to try to achieve a pin. Just grab and start stinging until the target's dead.


1. once they establish a grapple should every ant attempt to pin every round?

I would say not. That takes an attack and would prevent them from making their sting on the same turn. They also lack the constrict quality so the fastest, most reliable way for them to kill something is just grab and sting until the foe's dead.


2. If a warrior establishes a grapple it can attempt to sting each round, it looks like this is an attack roll, not a grapple check correct?

Correct. They must make an attack roll each round to deliver the sting. Because it's a special grapple based attack, I don't think it takes the usual -4 for using a natural weapon in a grapple.


3. In regards to improved grab, it looks like it can only be used on creatures smaller than the ants, so the halfling might be in trouble but against mediums they can either make a bite attack or a grapple attempt?

Judging by the fact the size bit is in a separate paragraph and that the usual limit on engaging a grapple is trying to grab a foe 2 sizes -larger- I believe the size restriction was intended to be only on the improved grab option of holding a foe with the grabbing weapon without being considered to be in a grapple yourself.

That is, it still establishes a hold on a successful hit and gets to immediately roll grapple but it must then move into its foe's space and conduct the grapple normally. It cannot simply pick up a medium foe and walk away with it, though it can do so with a small one.


4. If improved grab works, does the warrior ant make a successful bite attack, do damage, make a successful grapple check, do damage, and then get a sting attempt?

No. It makes its bite, deals lethal bite damage, and establishes a hold. Its turn then ends. On the following and subsequent turns, it can attempt to sting once or roll grapple to do bite damage again. It's noted as defaulting to the sting.


5. Is a sting attempt a separate attack in a grapple, so warriors can either bite or sting but not both?

That's almost right. The sting is a separate attack and requires an attack roll. Since it's a natural attack, it can only use it once per round. Because the ant is using its bite to actually hold the enemy, it can't roll attacks with it. It -can- roll grapple to do damage and will do bite damage if it succeeds.


6. do giant ants benefit from flanking, being mindless creatures?

Yes. Flanking is more about the difficulty in defending attacks from opposite sides than it is about the foes on either side coordinating their attacks.


7. do giant ants get a bonus to grapple an opponent who is already grappled by other ants?

Not exactly. The target is denied their dexterity bonus against foes outside the grapple so they're probably easier for the ant to hit with their bite and they must beat -all- of the foes grappling them with a single check to break free of the grapple. There's no set +X bonus granted for the enemy already being grappled though.


8. Grapple says that if you manage to escape you move to a space adjacent to your opponent, what happens if there is no unoccupied space, do you move through the crowd until you reach an unoccupied space?

There is a special exception for movement if you accidentally end your movement in an illegal square: either move it back to the last legal space it occupied or to the nearest legal space if that one is no longer available. If you escape from a grapple with a gaint ant and the walls and more ants occupy every space around the ants you're grappling, you land in the nearest legal space.

If that's quite a ways away, you're going to have to use your best judgement on how to make a special ruling or accept that you're on the giant ant railgun.

I'd personally just move one of the nearest ants back 5ft, squeezing into the space with another in the corridor if necessary.


9. How big do you think tunnels should be inside the hive? 5 feet in most places occasionally forcing squeezing rules, or standard tunnel is 10 ft. across? I am not sure what size to make them.

Assuming there's nothing in the module to guide you, I'd probably go with a circular cross-section about 10 feet in diameter. Have you ever seen any kind of documentary with ants? They'll slip right past each other in those tunnels sometimes three at a time. They're fairly spacious, compared to the creatures occupying them.


Sorry for all of the questions, and thank you for any advice!

No worries. What's a forum like this for if not getting help when you need it. :smallsmile: