Stalwart Battle Sorcerer- Gish Beast or Terrible?

[Godofallu]

Hey everyone,

I must confess. I am in love with the spell Alter Self. Being able to add 6+ NA and gain natural attacks and movement modes ect. All in one lvl 2 spell?! It's just so good and so fun! In addition I quite like Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph ect.

The main issue with spells like that is the poor HP that comes from the low HD of the Wizard ect. And the poor Bab which comes from the poor 1/2 Bab of a Wizard ect.

Now my thought it is use a Battle Sorcerer or if possible (rules is iffy so IDK) a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to gain essentially 3/4Bab + D12 HD. All while casting the admittedly crippled arcane spells.

I am wondering on your take on ruling of combining Stalwart and Battle sorcerer together. As well on your opinion of if this is better than the typical gish ideas of mixing wizard and fighter or sorcerer and paladin and then using prestige classes. Assuming we're talking about the typical leveling experience from lvl 1 to 12 or so.

In addition any advice on feats for something like this? I know I want Precosious apprentice-Alter Self as one of them but I play with flaws as well. I would probably trade familiar away for animal companion and take natural bond for another 1st lvl feat. Beyond that I am not sure what would be grabbed. Thoughts and suggestions welcome on spells as well.

[Troacctid]

They don't conflict, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't combine them unless you think battle sorcerer can't take any ACFs at all.

The main reason stalwart sorcerer is great is because if you use it with weapon familiarity + dragonborn it's just two bonus feats. But, you know, outside of that, it's okay, I guess. It's kind of like if you spent one of your highest-level slots each day on a 24-hour buff spell.

Battle sorcerer is generally weaker than normal sorcerer. You already get so few spells known; giving up one of each level is a higher price to pay than that BAB is worth. But of course there's plenty of room to be worse than a normal sorcerer and still be worth playing—just ask the bard.

[Fouredged Sword]

It works well if you have a really specific thing you are going after and don't care about being a caster outside of that. You get the one or two specific spells you need and don't care about anything outside of that.

Monk 2 / Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 8 / Enlightened Fist 10 beast strike battlefist warforged is a solid build. You punch things for 32d6 damage.

[Godofallu]

The main reason stalwart sorcerer is great is because if you use it with weapon familiarity + dragonborn it's just two bonus feats.

Can you explain that thought in more detail? Not understanding the comment.

[Troacctid]

Can you explain that thought in more detail? Not understanding the comment.
Okay so it grants you Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus of your choice as bonus feats. Because of your gnomish weapon familiarity, you can treat hooked hammers as martial weapons, so you choose the hooked hammer. Then, you undergo the rite of rebirth and become a dragonborn. As part of the process, you lose your racial abilities, including weapon familiarity. Oops! Your feats are now illegal, which means as per the rules of rebirth, you can now replace them with any other feats of your choice. Bam, two bonus feats.

[Anthrowhale]

Abjurant Champion might be a useful prestige class to pick up since it will allow you to reach BAB+16 and the AC bonuses are nice as well.

Illumian + Sacred Exorcist would allow you to persist a small number of spells making them function in something more like a wildshape mode (and Sacred Exorcist is a gish prestige class).

Unseen Seer, if you can manage the skill prereqs is also a solid gish prestige class.

In terms of spells you might want to consider Greater Mighty Wallop at 3rd level.

At second level, persistent wraithstrike is a great combo with power attack.

[Godofallu]

Okay so it grants you Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus of your choice as bonus feats. Because of your gnomish weapon familiarity, you can treat hooked hammers as martial weapons, so you choose the hooked hammer. Then, you undergo the rite of rebirth and become a dragonborn. As part of the process, you lose your racial abilities, including weapon familiarity. Oops! Your feats are now illegal, which means as per the rules of rebirth, you can now replace them with any other feats of your choice. Bam, two bonus feats.

Interesting thought. My first issue is that Dragonborn are still considered a member of their original race. So a gnome that goes through a dragonborn transformation still is counted as a gnome. Rule "You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

So i'm not convinced you can just swap those feats out for anything else. Being a gnome gives you access to gnome hooked hammer and you still count as a gnome. Plus if you lose weapon proficiency now we're back to only a simple weapon. Which isn't actually much worse than martial but still not great.

[Darg]

A stalwart battle sorcerer's familiar has really good HP values that can rival an animal companion. They get to cast spells in up to medium armor. They can get an animal companion along with a familiar that is combat capable. You get 4 free feats in proficiency and focus.

You aren't going to WOW anyone yourself, but you can be extremely capable as part of a group.

[Troacctid]

Interesting thought. My first issue is that Dragonborn are still considered a member of their original race. So a gnome that goes through a dragonborn transformation still is counted as a gnome. Rule "You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

So i'm not convinced you can just swap those feats out for anything else. Being a gnome gives you access to gnome hooked hammer and you still count as a gnome. Plus if you lose weapon proficiency now we're back to only a simple weapon. Which isn't actually much worse than martial but still not great.
You lose all your gnome racial abilities except for ability scores, size, and movement speed. That means no racial weapon familiarity.

Unless you believe the hooked hammer itself grants a redundant benefit by restating the gnomish weapon familiarity with it, in which case, gnome is just an example; you probably really wanted to be a kobold anyway, and you can use the greatpick instead.

[Gruftzwerg]

The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer definitively has a few arguments on his side, but it also has a few shortcomings. It all boils down to the situation, party and/or build. Imagine a scenario where you are the parties sole melee build. In this chase you really want the extra HP (btw, d8+2= effectively a better d10 not d12). Even if your party has melees it helps to not be to squishy. This is also true for the familiar if you intend to share combat spells with it (e.g. Alter Self/Polymorph..) since it only has half your HP. Being an HP monster himself as S.B. Sorcerer thus also helps your familiars HP.

In the early levels this can be a bigger difference than in the late game (since other build may find other ways to compensate for that: e.g. PRC). The more limited spell selection can be a lil headache, but if you know what you are doing and what you want it can be good trade imho.

BTW, a lil bit offtopic, but since you expressed your love for Alter Self: Did you have considered Tattooed Monk? It can get a Chameleon Tattoo that gives Alter Self with a duration measured in hours per class level. We recently had a Iron Chef competition around the Tattooed Monk. Maybe you'll get some inspiration there. I did participate myself and the builds there are really nice (mines is "G.R.8"). (LINK (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626458-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIX/page4) the builds start at #106)

[JNAProductions]

The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer definitively has a few arguments on his side, but it also has a few shortcomings. It all boils down to the situation, party and/or build. Imagine a scenario where you are the parties sole melee build. In this chase you really want the extra HP (btw, d8+2= effectively a better d10 not d12). Even if your party has melees it helps to not be to squishy. This is also true for the familiar if you intend to share combat spells with it (e.g. Alter Self/Polymorph..) since it only has half your HP. Being an HP monster himself as S.B. Sorcerer thus also helps your familiars HP.

In the early levels this can be a bigger difference than in the late game (since other build may find other ways to compensate for that: e.g. PRC). The more limited spell selection can be a lil headache, but if you know what you are doing and what you want it can be good trade imho.

BTW, a lil bit offtopic, but since you expressed your love for Alter Self: Did you have considered Tattooed Monk? It can get a Chameleon Tattoo that gives Alter Self with a duration measured in hours per class level. We recently had a Iron Chef competition around the Tattooed Monk. Maybe you'll get some inspiration there. I did participate myself and the builds there are really nice (mines is "G.R.8"). (LINK (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626458-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIX/page4) the builds start at #106)

What's the average of d8+2 and d12? You'll find them to be 6.5.

If your DM uses max HP at level one (as most do, far as I know) you lose 2 HP compared to a d12 HD class with your d8+2.

[TotallyNotEvil]

As far as I recall, adding Stalwart to your Battle Sorcerer is a free upgrade, which is nice, but the Sorcerer is already pretty gimped for spells known. You'd have a single first level spell known for levels 1-3, which seems pretty painful.

It bears reminding that 3.5 does have a ready-made Gish: the Duskblade.

It might not be as brilliant as the Magus, but it does bring some decent integration between the arcane and martial side beyond "buff up and swing", besides some sweet perks the Aorc doesn't get like full BAB and good Fort.

The Duskblade is much more committed to fighting things than the Sorcerer, and I think would be better to level. You could add Alter Self to your spell list by picking Arcane Disciple (Transformatiom Domain). It plays very well as a "magic warrior" with emphasis on "warrior".

Come to think of it, I suppose if the campaign is trying to imitate the very classic sword-and-sorcery feel where everyone can fight at least a little, and magic is like one or two supernatural tricks you know, the Stalwart Battle Sorc could mimic that well.

[Rebel7284]

So to answer the title: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer- Gish Beast or Terrible?

Neither.

It's a solid gish-in-a-can class and has everything you need to gish in a low to mid optimization game especially at low to mid levels. However, it doesn't get any class features, and taking ANY prestige class means you keep the drawbacks of the diminished casting but without any of the benefits.

A regular sorcerer with gish-focused prestige classes will almost certainly be better in the middle to late levels due to actually getting class features on top of more spells.

Both approaches will work just fine for most games.

On a side note, +2HP per level is pretty nifty in gestalt on, say, a sorcerer warblade :smallwink:

[DMVerdandi]

It's definitely one of the best gishes in the game out of the box for sure.

I think if the intent is not to be a sorcerer with a better chassis, but to actually be a martial sorcerer, it far outshines some other classes like, monk or rogue or as troacctid states the bard. Focused on buffs and the odd blast spell, it's a thing of glory.

Still not as good as say the cleric or druid in many MANY ways, but it's definitely not just in tier 3.
Is it cheaper finding a way to get divine power on a wizard or wizard esque class, yes. absolutely, but at the same degree, heck, you can get the arcane disciple feat, war domain, and voila. You have divine power.

A monk dip for ascetic mage could also have you drop the need for armor altogether.


Things to be said. Big spells for this build

>HEROICS
lets you use a fighter feat for the duration of the spell. Delicious.

>Wraithstrike
Hits become touch attacks

>Shadow Evocation and Conjuration
So you won't have to worry about getting a bunch of blasty spells.

>Greater Mighty whallop.
Damage is HEAFTY.

>wind wall

[Fizban]

Now my thought it is use a Battle Sorcerer or if possible (rules is iffy so IDK) a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to gain essentially 3/4Bab + D12 HD. All while casting the admittedly crippled arcane spells.

I am wondering on your take on ruling of combining Stalwart and Battle sorcerer together. As well on your opinion of if this is better than the typical gish ideas of mixing wizard and fighter or sorcerer and paladin and then using prestige classes. Assuming we're talking about the typical leveling experience from lvl 1 to 12 or so.
I generally don't support the stacking of ACFs that are obviously meant to do the same thing, or feats, as it's one of the main ways you get wildly inconsistent power levels: char-op digs up six versions of the same thing that all stack by default, when none of the original writers intended them to.

Additionally, I find Stalwart Sorcerer fishy to begin with. It reads like something written with entirely self serving interests, someone who wanted to "lose" fewer hit points on their Sorcerer levels for their gish build and deal with prerequisites that want a marital weapon and/or weapon focus - oh hey look, it's the completely broken Abjurant Champion, which just so happens to want one martial weapon proficiency and remove all pretense of limiting "gish" builds. And/or it was crammed in there because they couldn't think of anything for the Sorcerer but had to do something that looked sufficiently powerful compared to the absurd "Focused Specialist" erasing any remaining claim that Sorcerers actually have higher spells per day, and +2 hit points per level on a d4 class looks big even if the cost hits the Sorcerer right in the one place they can't really afford if they're actually the Sorcerer.


All of that said, when used together properly, the result is a 3/4 BAB, d12 class with only one spell known for each of its highest two levels- somewhat as if the Bard traded their skill points and music for swole hit points and the ability to upgrade their highest level spells known. Alternatively, consider the Divine Crusader, which has 3/4 BAB, d8, and 9th level spells, but only form a list of one spell per level via a domain (which could potentially be expanded by getting bonus domains) and has several levels of something else before entering the PrC.

Ultimately, I still find the combination unsuitable. Spellcasters are not supposed to have d12 equivalent hit points. The Battle Sorcerer already goes up to d8 immediately, Stalwart is to me an obviously slapdash ACF that is meant to do the same thing, and even if the two writers accidentally wrote a pair of things that can stack that doesn't mean they should. Both comparable examples have immediate comparison problems: a Bard with d12s and higher level spells? A PrC that is restricted to a pre-made domain, but instead more hit points and picking spells freely?

If a Battle Sorc wants more hit points, they can take Improved Toughness like anyone else- their spellcasting is reduced enough to pay for what they get, but applying Stalwart after that is a diminished cost for a benefit that stacks to being more valuable than it was before (too much synergy). In order to convince me to allow a Stalwart Battle Sorc, the player would have to build say a Psychic Warrior that could match it and prove that they fit within the expectations of the rest of the game (as I once built a Battle Sorc to prove to myself a homebrew class character was legit, and found it was, for a much higher power level than half the party).

Of course, I also look down on 3.5 Alter Self abuse (I use the 3.0 version, which was a disguise spell with minor physical benefits, not "find the most obscure book" mini-Polymorph), and laugh at the idea of "Flaws" (read: free feats), so my power level is probably not the same you're looking for. If your table accepts that use of Alter Self, and is okay with it at 1st level, and allows Flaws, then I doubt they would have any problem with stacking those ACFs- though I would be amused if all of them together did suddenly get a reaction.


In addition any advice on feats for something like this? I know I want Precosious apprentice-Alter Self as one of them but I play with flaws as well. I would probably trade familiar away for animal companion and take natural bond for another 1st lvl feat. Beyond that I am not sure what would be grabbed. Thoughts and suggestions welcome on spells as well.
3.5 Alter Self gives you access to decent flight with the right books, so Flyby Attack is obvious, though I doubt you would want to bother with Swim-by-Attack (but that would let you say more resources are focused on Alter Self, and be a heck of a surprise for a water adventure when you show you've had Swim-by-Attack the whole time). Mostly the spell gives you access to massive AC boosts from natural armor, so you can either get away with ignoring X points of AC, or use it to boost your AC to ridiculous levels. You could take Multiattack to improve natural weapon use, having three attacks with only a -2 penalty on some of them is also an obviously major boost at 1st level.

Beyond that, well Alter Self isn't going to carry you forever so you'll eventually want to take whatever spells or feats are required to reach an appropriate level of "gish" for your table. If you use Wraithstrike, that will support both ubercharging and natural weapon spam with Rapidstrike or if you went Warshaper. You very specifically don't want to enter most PrCs, so you don't have any prerequisites to work towards, and I doubt you'd want the limited uses of Sudden metamagic. Combat Expertise is the shortest way to turn an AC that's +5 higher than normal into "just miss," and again if you're going to be using Wraithstrike or something then you can eat the penalty.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone say Stalwart Sorcerer is "fishy" in a "too good" way. Or talking about Improved Toghness as anything but a joke.

Just Stalwart is a tougher sorcerer who's worse at serious spells, but Battle Sorcerer being the basis of the build takes an enormous hit to its spell casting, which is literally the only thing the Sorcerer has going for it. You know a second 1st level spell by Sorc 4, a second 2nd level spell by Sorc 7, a second 3rd level spell by Sorc 9.

There are no class features to make up for it, you just go from "bad" to "ok" at whacking people.

Huh, you know what its casting reminds me of? The Ardent.

[Xervous]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone say Stalwart Sorcerer is "fishy" in a "too good" way. Or talking about Improved Toghness as anything but a joke.

Balance is relative. Start with a list of competencies a class should have at least some of at levels X Y and Z, you’ll note that fighter and others don’t keep up. Start with the idea that fighter is relevant at all levels and other classes look like gross outliers.

[Kaleph]

Besides confirming many of the things being said, after witnessing a stalwart battle sorcerer in action in an actual campaign, I can provide some personal consideration.

Globally and in terms of overall power, I would call the variant a downgrade of the sorcerer that is still tier two, but on the lower side of the spectrum.

It power/level curve is more continuous and stable in comparison with the typical PrC-based gishes, which is an advantage at lower level thanks to the decent to-hit bonus and the huge amount of HP; in a small party, it can even occupy the primary meleer slot, although it would mean stretching it a bit. Together with CoDzilla it's also the only gish-in-a-can with access to 9th level spells, and more than CoDzilla it can incarnate the archetypal gish with its arcane spells (actually my favored spell list).

Its routine is kinda fixed, but it's great: long term buffs, 1st round the most powerful spell it can afford, and then wade into melee. And its melee routine is nothing to sneeze at: wand of wraithstrike + power attack + arcane strike, and as soon as you have a bit more of money, spell storing weapon + combust. Without forgetting the privilege of jumping fearless (with all those HP) into the middle of an enemy party and casting wings of flurry! And all the things I've mentioned are kinda out-of-the-box, it's not that I'm inventing something special or seriously optimizing it.

Talking about builds, the one I've seen had an improved familiar that got boosted through alter self, but in retrospect a fear-based build would be a better archetype (dreadful wrath, metamagic specialist variant, fell frighten with Kaupaer's quickblast and wings of flurry means 3 cha-based fear effects in a round).

The weaknesses are kinda obvious. First, it doesn't mix up very good with PrC's, but that's still ok. The main issue are the known spells. Not counting 0-level, until level 3 you have only 1 known spell IIRC, which will likely be color spray or the like, so no self buff. At level 4 you finally know another spell, 2nd level, and it must be alter self, because you know, your AC sucks. So you have to wait some 3 levels more until you get glitterdust, and that's just a pain. And you are level 7 now, and you are still stuck with 1 melee attack/round. As I said, mixing a very limited number of extremely good spells with some decent melee prowess and a lot of HP is still good, but probably a bit less good as it may seem in the first place.

From this point on, though, you rapidly evolve towards your sweet spot, that - as for most gishes - you get somewhere between level 10 and 13; as I've mentioned, you'll likely get there slightly sooner than the others. So in conclusion, I would recommend the variant for the level range that you are mentioning (1-12), as long as you understand its strength and weaknesses.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone say Stalwart Sorcerer is "fishy" in a "too good" way. Or talking about Improved Toghness as anything but a joke.

Just Stalwart is a tougher sorcerer who's worse at serious spells, but Battle Sorcerer being the basis of the build takes an enormous hit to its spell casting, which is literally the only thing the Sorcerer has going for it. You know a second 1st level spell by Sorc 4, a second 2nd level spell by Sorc 7, a second 3rd level spell by Sorc 9.

There are no class features to make up for it, you just go from "bad" to "ok" at whacking people.

Huh, you know what its casting reminds me of? The Ardent.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is a bad sorcerer.

They are a decent gish for how not complicated the build is. SBS is still a tier 2 full caster, but with the effective equivalent of a d12 HD and with prestige classes fully capable of being pushed to 18 BAB. It's closer to the tier 3 side of tier 2, but it has the distinctive win buttons that make it upper tier rather than mid tier.

It's not high OP, but it's a solid class to consider at a tier 3 table. It's going to play like a magical version of a warrior that self buffs rather than an arcane caster and should be judged accordingly. It is solidly more powerful than ether fighter or barbarian, capable of performing their primary combat role while having 9th level spells and access to the entire Sorc/wiz spell list via scrolls.

[Kaleph]

Huh, you know what its casting reminds me of? The Ardent.

The vanilla ardent (no mind's eye ACF) is definitely worse. If you consider the ACF they are more or less on the same tier level, but the sorcerer's spell progression is kinda like the wilder's.

[Godofallu]

This is also true for the familiar if you intend to share combat spells with it (e.g. Alter Self/Polymorph..) since it only has half your HP. Being an HP monster himself as S.B. Sorcerer thus also helps your familiars HP.

For the record I have never once used a familiar for anything other than the passive stats and occasional scouting. I never considered it for combat and this comment sent me down the rabbit hole googling around for familiar handbooks and jotting down cool feats and familiar options.

I have to say I always just assumed I would trade familiar for animal companion at 1/2 druid lvl. Now comparing the two I don't think it's worth it with how decent they can be in melee. Very cool.

[Gruftzwerg]

For the record I have never once used a familiar for anything other than the passive stats and occasional scouting. I never considered it for combat and this comment sent me down the rabbit hole googling around for familiar handbooks and jotting down cool feats and familiar options.

I have to say I always just assumed I would trade familiar for animal companion at 1/2 druid lvl. Now comparing the two I don't think it's worth it with how decent they can be in melee. Very cool.

There are a bunch of things that you can do with a familiar. Especially as a gish.

Share your combat buff spells. Alter Self is the most abused here, with Polymorph being the second place (due to lvl^^). Note that the familiar counts either as animal or as magical beast for the purpose of spells you share. This opens some nice options. Together combine with Enlarge Person if you can afford 2 rounds of buffing (or quicken one of em) for a pretty heavy early game strategy. Mirror Image is a great defensive tool that you should always share.

As for special feats, besides from the Improved Familiar and similiar options there are also a few other gems. Like the Shadowform familiar to get an incorporeal familiar. Abuseable either on combat familiars as defense or for buffing familiars (UMD +wands) to keep em out of sight from the enemies.
It scales (BAB, HP, Saves, Skills) with you, even if you only dip a single level into the class that gives it to you. The things that the familiar get for the class lvls are almost negligible compared to that.

Really, gish builds should try to keep their familiars. Or trade em for Animal Companion and get their Familiar via Obtain Familiar back to have a nice wombo combo. 1 personal spell = 3 targets benefiting from that. Could be a nice option for a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer imho.

[tiercel]

Presumably the point isn’t to compare SBS to a regular sorcerer, the point is to compare it to a more “traditional” arcane gish build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508706-Stalwart-battle-sorcerer-vs-common-Sorcadin-build); SBS is simpler, a functional gish from the start, and arguably at least comparable to a typical gish build in terms of spellcasting.

Also, Apprentice: Spellcaster seems pretty useful for SBS: helps get over the “only knows one spell at 1st level” hump, brings in UMD (which is always useful, and makes the SBS’s beefier familiar that much more awesome), which is presumably incentive to keep Apprentice around even if retraining is on the table.

On the flip side, “simpler” means your build is mostly a straight line: either straight SBS or perhaps a foray into Abjurant Champion (which is so ridiculously good that it’s worth it even for SBS), so not so much grabbing specific gish PrC builds. (Also, not weaponizing your Cha to saves like Sorcadins do, sorta thing.)

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, something like Fighter 1/Wiz 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wiz +3/Fighter +1 is about as simple as non-monoclass builds can get, being Core only even, and still achieves 9th level spells and BAB +16, but is also pretty damn playable throughout.

In the end, SBS (and that's a neat acronym for it) has sharp drawbacks: your spell choices are absurdly tight, and spells are still your only class features. But it can't be said that having access to even those very few, but appropriate in level for a full-caster, spells don't make it strong by the end.

One just has to be aware of things like "your spell repertoire is one level 1 spell until you hit level 4".

But by mid levels, as long as you think of your guy less like a sorcerer and instead like an ok fighter dude with some superpowers, it can be pretty sweet. By 8th, you can attack twice on a full attack like all the cool kids, but you can also become Greater Invisible while you Fly and hit people with Schorching Rays in between bouts of swording. Gishes tend to look really good in what 5E calls Tier 2.

I think that mentality of "I'm not a sorcerer, I'm a sword guy with powers" is important, so perhaps not walking around with the usual suspects of Wizard, Cleric and Druid would help. You should fit right in with Bards, Rogues and Warlocks tho.

[Kazyan]

Theoretically, yeah, it's okay. You have to be really good at the whole "picking spells that you'll actually use" thing, though, because if you get that wrong, you're trying to flex with little to show for yourself but 3/4 BAB and "d12" hit dice. I guess having a familiar would take you out of Tier 6.

[Particle_Man]

I am curious how it stacks up vs the psychic warrior, another simple gish build.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am curious how it stacks up vs the psychic warrior, another simple gish build.

SBS gets more spells know.
Psiwar's powers are more flexible within each power.

EDIT
SBS gets a lot MORE spells per day than Psiwar gets power points.
Did the math Psiwar and SBS get almost exactly the same number of spell/powers points per day.
Psiwar can spend ALL their power points ONLY on the few powers they care about.

SBS has 2 extra HP per HD.

SBS has a good will save
Psiwar has a good fort save, and their casting stat boosts will saves.

SBS has access to better prestige classes, even if it loses some of it's shine when you take them. Abjurant Champion is dead simple to qualify for and is so powerful it's hard to not take as a melee focused caster.

You could stick them both in the same party and they would play roughly the same power until later levels, when Psiwar would struggle when faced with 8th and 9th level spells.

The SBS is also potentially going to have more utility. You can build a gish around 3-4 spells of 1-4th level and have that carry you in melee until late game when melee becomes fairly meaningless. SBS gets more than 3-4 spells known. That means they CAN take bits and bobs of utility from the utility heavy sorc/wis spell list.
Psiwars are going to have to spend feats to get some of the more utility focused powers, though this is a point in their favor because virtually any power is merely a single feat away.

[Zarvistic]

I think its pretty good as an archer sort of gish, great synergy with manyshot + slippers of battledancing and you won't need many spells known.

[Godofallu]

Plan currently is Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Sewerm Familiar.

Feats
Flaw, Flaw- Precosious apprentice-Alter Self, Lost tradition- Con to Spells
1-Enspell Familiar
3-
6-
9-Miser with magic

I have yet to figure out the missing feats, race+templates or spells. I do think I will shy away from all PRC's. Abjurant Champion is good but that PRC is best with shield + Luminous armor and I doubt I would have either of those on the spell list.

I'll be looking for some knowstones or Drake Helm play since we play in Eberron. Interestingly I wonder if you can just buy your own Siberys shards for the helm and get them enchanted yourself for less than the listed cost. Because listed cost is very high for the spell gems.

Weapon will probably be a greatsword and maybe power attack at lvl 3. Issue with power attack is a lot of alter self and polymorph forms have many natural attacks which power attack ruins. So maybe a great club or other two handed blunt weapon for mighty wallop fun. Undecided.

[Fouredged Sword]

Plan currently is Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Sewerm Familiar.

Feats
Flaw, Flaw- Precosious apprentice-Alter Self, Lost tradition- Con to Spells
1-Enspell Familiar
3-
6-
9-Miser with magic

I have yet to figure out the missing feats, race+templates or spells. I do think I will shy away from all PRC's. Abjurant Champion is good but that PRC is best with shield + Luminous armor and I doubt I would have either of those on the spell list.

I'll be looking for some knowstones or Drake Helm play since we play in Eberron. Interestingly I wonder if you can just buy your own Siberys shards for the helm and get them enchanted yourself for less than the listed cost. Because listed cost is very high for the spell gems.

Weapon will probably be a greatsword and maybe power attack at lvl 3. Issue with power attack is a lot of alter self and polymorph forms have many natural attacks which power attack ruins. So maybe a great club or other two handed blunt weapon for mighty wallop fun. Undecided.

Shield is a spell you pick up as a spell known around level 7. It's a solid AC buff that becomes a swift action with abjurant champion, so it's basically a free way to use your swift action while charging into combat.

You are going to be wearing real armor, so mage armor / luminous armor are not needed.

As for weapons, I would point you in the direction of the heavy flail. Bludgeoning weapons are better for being viable targets for mighty wallop/greater mighty wallop. 2d8 19-20x2 is a solid damage base, and greater mighty wallop is an all day buff that could take it to 3d8 or higher as you level.

[Darg]

I think its pretty good as an archer sort of gish, great synergy with manyshot + slippers of battledancing and you won't need many spells known.

The slippers only work with one handed or light weapons. This means only thrown melee weapons make use of the ranged weapon part.

[Anthrowhale]

Plan currently is Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Sewerm Familiar.
You might want to consider Arcane Disciple[Celestia] which gives you access to Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, a solid set of gish buff spells.

Illumian + Sacred Exorcist seems worth leaving SBS for at least one level to me. Being able to persist a few spells helps quite a bit with gishing since you avoid the troubling "do I cast or do I attack". In this case, your missing feats would be Extend Spell (which is helpful anyways) and Persistent spell.

[Godofallu]

You might want to consider Arcane Disciple[Celestia] which gives you access to Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, a solid set of gish buff spells.

Illumian + Sacred Exorcist seems worth leaving SBS for at least one level to me. Being able to persist a few spells helps quite a bit with gishing since you avoid the troubling "do I cast or do I attack". In this case, your missing feats would be Extend Spell (which is helpful anyways) and Persistent spell.

Never heard of Celestia domain but it seems pretty great. Interesting thing is with this build my spells known will be so minute I would struggle to even pick any of those spells. If I did pick them it would replace my arcane spells almost entirely which would negate the point of being Sorcerer over Cleric in the first place.

If I was going to persist Divine Power all day it kind of makes me wonder why I would even go for Battle Sorcerer in the first place. Trade all my spellcasting for Bab and divine power makes it pointless anyways. Super useful tip for future builds though. I think it becomes obvious at higher levels Sorcerer without Stalwart or Battle varients is much better when they can just get all the spells and still have the Bab.

[Rebel7284]

Versatile Spellcaster is good for any sorcerer.

Bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium give you extra spells known which may be helpful.

[Zarvistic]

The slippers only work with one handed or light weapons. This means only thrown melee weapons make use of the ranged weapon part.
Ah, you're right.. that manyshot feat that's for thrown weapons then, forgot the name but it's for dwarves.

[Anthrowhale]

If I was going to persist Divine Power all day it kind of makes me wonder why I would even go for Battle Sorcerer in the first place.

There are a couple reasons.

(1) If you are doing a 1-20 build, then at level 8 you are either suffering an effective -2 to hit or -4 to hit (vs. a fighter). Plausibly, that extra -2 to hit pushes you over the edge towards irrelevance.
(2) At higher levels, there is something to be said for having a gish that can actually function after dispel magics are laid down.

In any case, I don't think people play gishes for the power---they play them because that's the concept they want to go with.

One other minor thing: you can use the 'retraining' rules to swap Precocious Apprentice for something else when you are ready. That will effectively give you an extra feat at some point.

[Zaile]

It's not a bad option, but as stated previously, if you multiclass you lose all the benefits but keep all the drawbacks. Multiclassing is always best with gishes not named Duskblade or Mystic Ranger.

Even with 3/4 BAB and fractional BAB rules, you need 4 levels of full BAB (usually Abjurant champion) top get to +16. This puts you 4-5 more levels behind on spells known to reach the benchmarks of gish +16/9th.

If you plan to use sorcerer, I still think the best option is either Duskblade 3 for channeling or Paladin 2 for martial side and proficiencies. I would also recommend generic spellcaster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) over sorcerer as you get bonus feats like a wizard and can pull from Cleric, Sorc/Wiz and Druid lists. This class feels like what the sorcerer should have always been.

[tiercel]

I know there’s a standard benchmark of BAB+16/9th level spells, but pure SBS barely comes up short in the BAB department, and losing the ability to make a fourth iterative attack at -15 to hit doesn’t sound all that awful — plus, you have full CL, plus how many games even make it 20th level, and if yours does, it might create a nagging itching feeling of “why am I not just playing a regular full caster” the closer you get to 20th anyway. Plus, yes, Abjurant Champion.

SBS isn’t going to blow other gish builds out of the water, but if you don’t want a particular PrC combo, and you know which standard package of gish spells you’re going to be happy spamming every day, it holds its own just fine (and is arguably beefier and easier at low levels, once you figure out what your spell selection is).

[Zaile]

I know there’s a standard benchmark of BAB+16/9th level spells, but pure SBS barely comes up short in the BAB department, and losing the ability to make a fourth iterative attack at -15 to hit doesn’t sound all that awful — plus, you have full CL, plus how many games even make it 20th level, and if yours does, it might create a nagging itching feeling of “why am I not just playing a regular full caster” the closer you get to 20th anyway. Plus, yes, Abjurant Champion.

SBS isn’t going to blow other gish builds out of the water, but if you don’t want a particular PrC combo, and you know which standard package of gish spells you’re going to be happy spamming every day, it holds its own just fine (and is arguably beefier and easier at low levels, once you figure out what your spell selection is).


Good points! Very few games make it past the mid-teens. In general every gish I've played felt behind until mid-levels. SBS really limits you on the caster side making you even MORE dependent on melee as you have fewer non-"I hit it" tricks.

I will point out however that once you hit 20, BAB does not actually increase, you just get an epic bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). That means you are stuck with the # of iteratives you have at 20th. Yes, your last attack is at -15, but with spells like Wraithstrike, you can PA for 50 and still hit.

[Darg]

Good points! Very few games make it past the mid-teens. In general every gish I've played felt behind until mid-levels. SBS really limits you on the caster side making you even MORE dependent on melee as you have fewer non-"I hit it" tricks.

I will point out however that once you hit 20, BAB does not actually increase, you just get an epic bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). That means you are stuck with the # of iteratives you have at 20th. Yes, your last attack is at -15, but with spells like Wraithstrike, you can PA for 50 and still hit.

That's why you take levels of abjurant champion. You'll get your 4th iterative with +16 BAB.

[tiercel]

SBS really limits you on the caster side making you even MORE dependent on melee as you have fewer non-"I hit it" tricks.

Compared to a standard-ish “sorcadin” gish, SBS doesn’t really limit you all that much (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508706-Stalwart-battle-sorcerer-vs-common-Sorcadin-build), e.g. :

At 4th level, SBS has a second level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 2) doesn’t; SBS also has more castings
At 8th level, SBS has a fourth level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 1) doesn’t; SBS still has more castings
At 12th level, SBS has a sixth level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 4/SS 1/AC 5) doesn’t; sorcadin now has the same total spells per day, but SBS has more of its castings of higher level spells

The math changes a bit, of course, if your gish is Full BAB class 1/Wiz 4/Gish PrCs, and obviously wizards have much more latitude in spells known, but the point is that a gish isn’t trying to be a God wizard, and is more likely to want to (mostly) spam the same useful buff spells repeatedly, with only the occasional debuff, ranged/AoE, or high-use utility.

SBS will always have less progression than a standard sorcerer or wizard with fullcasting PrCs, but that’s not the comparison; essentially any arcane gish will have to take caster level loss in order to BE a gish, at which point SBS casting is pretty similar over many levels.

Sure, duskblade is full BAB, full CL, but is still way less “caster” than SBS; bard is awesome in its own right, but makes arguably for a squishier gish which is significantly less “caster” than SBS (excepting Sublime Chord, but that takes a while to come online and then is arguably significantly still less “gish”).

CoDzilla is just an entirely different kettle of fish (in the case of Druidzilla, possibly dire sea bass with frickin’ laser beams from their heads).


I will point out however that once you hit 20, BAB does not actually increase, you just get an epic bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). That means you are stuck with the # of iteratives you have at 20th. Yes, your last attack is at -15, but with spells like Wraithstrike, you can PA for 50 and still hit.

That’s a fair point; I tend to consider Epic even less than I do 20th level play. Of course, if you DO play significantly into Epic (enough that -15 doesn’t slow you down, even when Power Attacking), then even more than at 20th level you are probably all “why am I still hitting things with a sword?”

...and yeah, as Darg said, AC is still good on SBS.

(Side note: isn’t PA capped by your BAB anyway?)

[Darg]

(Side note: isn’t PA capped by your BAB anyway?)

Your Epic bonus is given an exception to be considered part of the sum of your BAB when referenced by things like power attack. So a level 30 battle sorc would have BAB 20 to determine power attack but only 15 for iteratives.

[tiercel]

Your Epic bonus is given an exception to be considered part of the sum of your BAB when referenced by things like power attack. So a level 30 battle sorc would have BAB 20 to determine power attack but only 15 for iteratives.

Ah. I guess I should know Epic better (though usually any time Epic casting enters the picture as anything more than “higher spell slots” my eyes glaze over)

[Gnaeus]

You might want to consider Arcane Disciple[Celestia] which gives you access to Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, a solid set of gish buff spells.

I’m a big fan of arcane disciple but I would never take it on an SBS.
1. It requires a decent wisdom to cast those spells. And you are a Cha caster who needs physical stats to fight.
2. It requires 4 ranks in an out of class skill that you won’t otherwise be using (know religion). There are lots of places those points could be better spent, especially with int as your only remaining dump stat
3. Arcane disciple requires you to learn the spells, but then only lets you cast them once per day. SBS needs to be maximizing the flexibility of each spell known because they get so few. Those are good spells, but none are so good I would trade being able to cast it once per day for an equivalent level Sor/Wiz spell that I could cast in every slot if it were often useful or got dispelled.

[Thunder999]

That's why you take levels of abjurant champion. You'll get your 4th iterative with +16 BAB.

The main downside there is that the downsides of SBS still apply when taking PrCs but the benefits don't, so the more PrC levels you need the worse off you are.
Is having abjurant champion 2 levels early really worth the penalties?

[Zarvistic]

Never heard of Celestia domain but it seems pretty great. Interesting thing is with this build my spells known will be so minute I would struggle to even pick any of those spells. If I did pick them it would replace my arcane spells almost entirely which would negate the point of being Sorcerer over Cleric in the first place.

If I was going to persist Divine Power all day it kind of makes me wonder why I would even go for Battle Sorcerer in the first place. Trade all my spellcasting for Bab and divine power makes it pointless anyways. Super useful tip for future builds though. I think it becomes obvious at higher levels Sorcerer without Stalwart or Battle varients is much better when they can just get all the spells and still have the Bab.
Check out divine sorcery instead, I think it fits great considering few spells known.

[Anthrowhale]

I’m a big fan of arcane disciple but I would never take it on an SBS.
1. It requires a decent wisdom to cast those spells. And you are a Cha caster who needs physical stats to fight.
2. It requires 4 ranks in an out of class skill that you won’t otherwise be using (know religion). There are lots of places those points could be better spent, especially with int as your only remaining dump stat
3. Arcane disciple requires you to learn the spells, but then only lets you cast them once per day. SBS needs to be maximizing the flexibility of each spell known because they get so few. Those are good spells, but none are so good I would trade being able to cast it once per day for an equivalent level Sor/Wiz spell that I could cast in every slot if it were often useful or got dispelled.

These are fair points. The way that I'd navigate them is by:
1. Using a wisdom boosting item to access higher level spells.
2. Take Knowledge Devotion (which you may want anyways) to make knowledge[religion] a class skill.
3. Use a rod of Extend Spell with Shield Other and Magic Vestment while using Illumian Naenhoon with Divine Power and Righteous Might. Shield of Faith is certainly of more limited utility.

[Gnaeus]

These are fair points. The way that I'd navigate them is by:
1. Using a wisdom boosting item to access higher level spells.
2. Take Knowledge Devotion (which you may want anyways) to make knowledge[religion] a class skill.
3. Use a rod of Extend Spell with Shield Other and Magic Vestment while using Illumian Naenhoon with Divine Power and Righteous Might. Shield of Faith is certainly of more limited utility.

Knowledge devotion won’t help you much. Again, 2 skill points per level, only know arcana in class. Int is your lowest stat. The fighter uses knowledge devotion better than you.

When exactly are you going to be able to afford a 16kgp item for your 5th most useful stat? 12th, 13th level maybe? You could also buy +4 in ac bonuses cheaper and without expending a spell known and 2 feats. Oh, and you are giving up 3 more feats (extend spell, persist spell, human bonus feat). And more money for the turn attempts (assuming they are ruled legal)

The more you explain the worse this sounds.

[Gruftzwerg]

The main downside there is that the downsides of SBS still apply when taking PrCs but the benefits don't, so the more PrC levels you need the worse off you are.
Is having abjurant champion 2 levels early really worth the penalties?

2 levels of spellprogression can make or break a build. This can offset a lot of the downsides of the build. You get access to another spell level and thus SBS's downsides carry over to the next lvl. Compared to a build with 2 lvl lesser spell progress now the SBS looks very nice. And depending on if you play with multiclass xp penalties, it can be a good solution to avoid em.

On higher optimization levels it all boils down to the specific build you are trying to build. Imho Stalwart Battle Sorcerer has definitively his niche. Sometimes you want to avoid it, other times it can be your sole option to get the build together.

[Zaile]

Compared to a standard-ish “sorcadin” gish, SBS doesn’t really limit you all that much (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508706-Stalwart-battle-sorcerer-vs-common-Sorcadin-build), e.g. :

At 4th level, SBS has a second level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 2) doesn’t; SBS also has more castings
At 8th level, SBS has a fourth level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 1) doesn’t; SBS still has more castings
At 12th level, SBS has a sixth level spell known, sorcadin (Pal 2/Sor 4/SS 1/AC 5) doesn’t; sorcadin now has the same total spells per day, but SBS has more of its castings of higher level spells

The math changes a bit, of course, if your gish is Full BAB class 1/Wiz 4/Gish PrCs, and obviously wizards have much more latitude in spells known, but the point is that a gish isn’t trying to be a God wizard, and is more likely to want to (mostly) spam the same useful buff spells repeatedly, with only the occasional debuff, ranged/AoE, or high-use utility.

SBS will always have less progression than a standard sorcerer or wizard with fullcasting PrCs, but that’s not the comparison; essentially any arcane gish will have to take caster level loss in order to BE a gish, at which point SBS casting is pretty similar over many levels.

Sure, duskblade is full BAB, full CL, but is still way less “caster” than SBS; bard is awesome in its own right, but makes arguably for a squishier gish which is significantly less “caster” than SBS (excepting Sublime Chord, but that takes a while to come online and then is arguably significantly still less “gish”).

CoDzilla is just an entirely different kettle of fish (in the case of Druidzilla, possibly dire sea bass with frickin’ laser beams from their heads).



That’s a fair point; I tend to consider Epic even less than I do 20th level play. Of course, if you DO play significantly into Epic (enough that -15 doesn’t slow you down, even when Power Attacking), then even more than at 20th level you are probably all “why am I still hitting things with a sword?”

...and yeah, as Darg said, AC is still good on SBS.

(Side note: isn’t PA capped by your BAB anyway?)

Huh, neat. Good to see some math on that.

In general I'm not a fan of SBS as the drawbacks don't seem to be worth the trade. Getting Divine Power as a known spell is still better.

It sucks because sorcerer had so little to start with all it can "give up" in exchange for better features is spells. Wizards just have to lose a feat or 2 out of 5.

I was being a bit hyperbolic with the wraithstrike comment, lol.

[Gruftzwerg]

Huh, neat. Good to see some math on that.

In general I'm not a fan of SBS as the drawbacks don't seem to be worth the trade. Getting Divine Power as a known spell is still better.

It sucks because sorcerer had so little to start with all it can "give up" in exchange for better features is spells. Wizards just have to lose a feat or 2 out of 5.

I was being a bit hyperbolic with the wraithstrike comment, lol.

As seen in the current Iron Chef round, getting Divine Power (DP) as SBS ain't that big of a deal. Domain Sorcerer ACF at 5th lvl and pick War domain. Now DP is a 4th lvl sorcerer spell for you. Which can be used as legal target for Arcane Fusion. With AF you can bypass the daily limit of the Domain spell easily.

And as said, in some builds your don't "give up" that much as you assume. If SBS allows you to avoid martial dips to get into your PRC, you have 1-2 levels more of spell progression. That makes up to some degree for the limited spell selection.

[Darg]

With AF you can bypass the daily limit of the Domain spell easily.

Versatile Spellcaster let's you do the same thing.

And while SBS may be limited in spells known, it is possible to take a 1 level dip into Sand Shaper to get some utility spells (well, I mean any non-wizard probably wants to dip into sandshaper for the increased selection.)

[Gruftzwerg]

Versatile Spellcaster let's you do the same thing.

And while SBS may be limited in spells known, it is possible to take a 1 level dip into Sand Shaper to get some utility spells (well, I mean any non-wizard probably wants to dip into sandshaper for the increased selection.)

Domain Sorcerer gives access to a domain.

Substitution levels are another option. Be a Chameleon with Racial Emulation for extra cheese.

Dragonblooded Sorcerer
&
Raptoran Sorcerer

Can both be taken as Chameleon. Together with Domain Sorcerer this add up a bunch of spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

As seen in the current Iron Chef round, getting Divine Power (DP) as SBS ain't that big of a deal. Domain Sorcerer ACF at 5th lvl and pick War domain. Now DP is a 4th lvl sorcerer spell for you. Which can be used as legal target for Arcane Fusion. With AF you can bypass the daily limit of the Domain spell easily.

And as said, in some builds your don't "give up" that much as you assume. If SBS allows you to avoid martial dips to get into your PRC, you have 1-2 levels more of spell progression. That makes up to some degree for the limited spell selection.

Yeah, this is my thing all of this.

There are more powerful builds than gishes. If you want something gish like that is as powerful as possible, then Wizard 6 / Ruthar 3 / abjurent champion 5 / Wizard X is your best bet. It's not a gish though. It lacks in BAB. It can still mix it up in melee with a longsword or staff and has really powerful defenses to ensure it survives, but that's not that hard to achieve.

BAB just isn't that useful. It only really matters to full attacks and full attacks are not that useful. An extra attack at -5 and -10 is meh. Outside of full attacks BAB and attack bonuses are fairly interchangeable and attack bonuses are not hard to come by.

But, discounting that, most standard gish builds are going to lose 2 spellcaster levels at some point. One to a martial dip and one to a PRC of some sort. SBS doesn't have to lose any spellcaster levels, it's spellcaster levels are just somewhat worse. It's going to hit benchmark spell access at roughly the same time as a wizard gish. The SBS progression is just smoother, not having to be a pure wizard at low levels.

[Thunder999]

2 levels of spellprogression can make or break a build. This can offset a lot of the downsides of the build. You get access to another spell level and thus SBS's downsides carry over to the next lvl. Compared to a build with 2 lvl lesser spell progress now the SBS looks very nice. And depending on if you play with multiclass xp penalties, it can be a good solution to avoid em.

On higher optimization levels it all boils down to the specific build you are trying to build. Imho Stalwart Battle Sorcerer has definitively his niche. Sometimes you want to avoid it, other times it can be your sole option to get the build together.

Well you can get Abjurant Champion single classed if you can grab a martial weapon from your race, so any elf variant, outsider etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well you can get Abjurant Champion single classed if you can grab a martial weapon from your race, so any elf variant, outsider etc.

Ruathar also grants a martial weapon proficiency, advances any spellcasting at 3/3, and is dead simple to qualify for.

[Gruftzwerg]

Well you can get Abjurant Champion single classed if you can grab a martial weapon from your race, so any elf variant, outsider etc.

or SBS which gets 2 times martial weapon proficiency.^^ SBS is just another one of those options. And depending on the build you try, it can be a nice solution or not.

[Endarire]

At what levels are we talking here? Even a standard Sor/Wiz can gish fairly well with level 5+ spells. Until then, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is still a Sor with far fewer spells known, but with more HP and proficiencies that can still use scrolls, wands, and staves of Sor spells, like wings of cover.

I'd normally go Druid or somesuch for magical melee, but that's my preference.

[Anthrowhale]

Knowledge devotion won’t help you much. Again, 2 skill points per level, only know arcana in class. Int is your lowest stat. The fighter uses knowledge devotion better than you.

There are many other ways to get K[Religion] as a class skill, or you can just eat the cross-class loss of 4 skill ranks---it's ok. The Knowledge Devotion approach just gives you a freebie +1.5 to hit/damage with each weapon. It's minor, but if you are going to spend a feat then it might as well compliment the gish direction as well.


When exactly are you going to be able to afford a 16kgp item for your 5th most useful stat? 12th, 13th level maybe? You could also buy +4 in ac bonuses cheaper and without expending a spell known and 2 feats. Oh, and you are giving up 3 more feats (extend spell, persist spell, human bonus feat). And more money for the turn attempts (assuming they are ruled legal)

It is possible to view persistomancy as a feat tax but in my experience the many uses of persistomancy make the cost of the feats often worthwhile from a capabilities perspective.

[Thunder999]

or SBS which gets 2 times martial weapon proficiency.^^ SBS is just another one of those options. And depending on the build you try, it can be a nice solution or not.

Well my point was that those all cost you very nearly nothing, rather than loads of spells.

[Darg]

At what levels are we talking here? Even a standard Sor/Wiz can gish fairly well with level 5+ spells. Until then, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is still a Sor with far fewer spells known, but with more HP and proficiencies that can still use scrolls, wands, and staves of Sor spells, like wings of cover.

I'd normally go Druid or somesuch for magical melee, but that's my preference.

Don't forget the ability to wear armor and cast spells.

[Zaile]

Back to OP, at the end of the day you have to decide if the following is worth the trade:

SBS
9 lost spell slots per day (one of each level)
9 lost spells known (again one of each level, reducing known from 34 to 25, and only 2 known from 6th-9th)
Gain:
3/4 BAB
D8 HD, +2 HP/Sorc (and only Sorc) level. This is effectively +4 HP/Sorcerer level and d12 equivalent.
Cast in light armor
Proficiency w/only 1 martial weapon
Easier to PRC with just one base class
Spellsword is out without a dip for heavy armor proficiency.

Build into Abjurant Champ: SBS 7 > Abj. Champ 1; CL = 8th, BAB +6, 4th level spells, 4 lost spells know & per day

Non-SBS Gish
1-2 spell level behind, but no lost spells known, no lost per day (best gish spells are levels 1-4 though)
Needs a dip to gish PRC before 8th, but...
Dips give equal or 1 BAB ahead of SBS
Dips give all martial proficiencies + all armor (not just 1 weapon and light).
Can easily cast in light armor with Armored Mage fighter (C. Mage p. 32)
Spellsword and at least 3 mundane armor crafting methods (Thistledown padding (RotW), Feycraft or Githcraft DMG II) easily reduces light armor ASF to 0 without giving up spells or feats. Add Twilight (+1 bonus, -10% ASF)

Build into Abjurant Champ: Sorc 6 > Martial 1 > Spellsword 1 > ABC 1; CL = 7th, BAB +6, 3rd level spells, but no lost know/day

[Godofallu]

The thing is a Gish isn't a gish until about lvl 12. When I play campaigns they are generally starting at lvl 1-3 and ending at 6-12. So what Stalwart does is it allows a battle mage from lvl 1. Which I do like.

[Darg]

Well my point was that those all cost you very nearly nothing, rather than loads of spells.

Other than 1-3 and 19-20 you are only ever behind in known spells by 1 and you aren't even behind on even levels. Also, you lose only a single slot per level which a gish sorcerer tends to already have plenty of. Honestly, the large health pool and medium BAB is already a large boon to a gish. The same could be said for the arcane fusion spells which can create some really nice gish combos. Especially when you add in arcane preparation, you don't have to worry about the metamagic increasing the cast time of your spells to work with arcane fusion.


Back to OP, at the end of the day you have to decide if the following is worth the trade:

SBS
9 lost spell slots per day (one of each level)
9 lost spells known (again one of each level, reducing known from 34 to 25, and only 2 known from 6th-9th)
Gain:
3/4 BAB
D8 HD, +2 HP/Sorc (and only Sorc) level. This is effectively +4 HP/Sorcerer level and d12 equivalent.
Cast in light armor
Proficiency w/only 1 martial weapon
Easier to PRC with just one base class
Spellsword is out without a dip for heavy armor proficiency.

Build into Abjurant Champ: SBS 7 > Abj. Champ 1; CL = 8th, BAB +6, 4th level spells, 4 lost spells know & per day

Non-SBS Gish
1-2 spell level behind, but no lost spells known, no lost per day (best gish spells are levels 1-4 though)
Needs a dip to gish PRC before 8th, but...
Dips give equal or 1 BAB ahead of SBS
Dips give all martial proficiencies + all armor (not just 1 weapon and light).
Can easily cast in light armor with Armored Mage fighter (C. Mage p. 32)
Spellsword and at least 3 mundane armor crafting methods (Thistledown padding (RotW), Feycraft or Githcraft DMG II) easily reduces light armor ASF to 0 without giving up spells or feats. Add Twilight (+1 bonus, -10% ASF)

Build into Abjurant Champ: Sorc 6 > Martial 1 > Spellsword 1 > ABC 1; CL = 7th, BAB +6, 3rd level spells, but no lost know/day

It's only a loss of 1-2 spells known as you retroactively regain the spells known as you gain access to a new spell level. You also get proficiency with 2 martial weapons and weapon focus with one of them.

A typical gish requires a 1 level dip at least to get started and still loses out on low level AB. 1 level dip in fighter and SBS gets access to battle caster without a proficiency feat and opens up spellsword which lets you equip a shield without fear of spell failure.

[Zaile]

Other than 1-3 and 19-20 you are only ever behind in known spells by 1 and you aren't even behind on even levels. Also, you lose only a single slot per level which a gish sorcerer tends to already have plenty of. Honestly, the large health pool and medium BAB is already a large boon to a gish. The same could be said for the arcane fusion spells which can create some really nice gish combos. Especially when you add in arcane preparation, you don't have to worry about the metamagic increasing the cast time of your spells to work with arcane fusion.



It's only a loss of 1-2 spells known as you retroactively regain the spells known as you gain access to a new spell level. You also get proficiency with 2 martial weapons and weapon focus with one of them.


Loss of 1-2 spells? Am I missing something?

Battle Sorcerer
"A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any)."

"A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level)."

That's a loss of 10 known and 9 per day. 10 known b/c stalwart+battle means you will only have 1 6th, 7th, 8th until you gain new spell levels, then are stuck at 2 spells known for those levels and only 1 9th. Choose wisely.


A typical gish requires a 1 level dip at least to get started and still loses out on low level AB. 1 level dip in fighter and SBS gets access to battle caster without a proficiency feat and opens up spellsword which lets you equip a shield without fear of spell failure.

So here you are still taking a dip in martial for SBS, thus putting it on the exact same level curve as regular sorcerer gish. You may get into AB a level earlier, but now you have fewer spells doing so. In the fractional world, this is a net loss of .25 BAB, easily made up with 3/4 BAB PRC.

I still contend SBS loses more than it gains therefore is not as good of a gish as standard sorcerer with martial dip.

[Asmotherion]

I'm votting worse than a regular Sorcerer, who, if he wishes can become a gish by replicating the cleric spell divine power.

[Godofallu]

I'm votting worse than a regular Sorcerer, who, if he wishes can become a gish by replicating the cleric spell divine power.

It has to be worse but do try to remember that D4 HP as a frontline melee is going to be worse than D12 melee. Like... there is a very sizable HP difference between the two even if Bab was comparable. That HP and Bab stick around when polymorphing ect.

[Zaile]

It has to be worse but do try to remember that D4 HP as a frontline melee is going to be worse than D12 melee. Like... there is a very sizable HP difference between the two even if Bab was comparable. That HP and Bab stick around when polymorphing ect.

HP is important, but if you are a gish and relies on HP you are gishing wrong. Luminous armor, blink, blur, displacement, greater invisibility and other miss-chances, DR, SR as well as energy resistances are what makes a gish far more than a HP battery. I'll take a d4-d6 hp and 20-50% miss chance over d12 hp. Even the d8 of SBS only puts you on par with the monk as you have 3-4 stats you need to keep high. Then there are feats like Minor Shapeshift and other temp HP batteries that are effectively infinite.

[bean illus]

Yeah, worse than terrible. I could see it being fun at low levels, but the lack of class features, coupled with the lack of prc possibilities makes it less of an option above 6thish.

With 3-4 levels of ordained champion you're gishing all over the place. You can prc at 5th, and by 9th+ you're out combating many melee builds, with 2 extra fighter feats, channel spell, rapid metamagic divine power, smite, Travel devition, and more.
Then you still have 11 levels to continue customizing the build.

There are several ways to build a duskblade. Most advice is 13 levels is enough, but 7 other levels is a lot to work with. Chameleon for example, let's DB access 'all' the 1-5 level spells in the game.

But with SBS we seem to be looking at just a few ways to make it work.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. hp a level 1 combo of:

Shape Soulmeld(Blood Talons) // granting an effective +10hp
Wild Cohort //granting an animal companion
Trading your familiar for an animal companion

provides a powerful combat-oriented package. (This was used here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24650205&postcount=400) to defeat an optimized L1 fighter.) This is not exactly a gish, but it is fulfilling the front-line combat role, and after level 3 or 4 when these things become more marginal you can trade away the opening package using the retraining rules in the PHBII.

This isn't directly relevant to the SBS, except in that it provides an effective (non-squishy) frontline combat strategy for a plain-old-sorcerer over the first few levels when they are naively rather weak.

[Darg]

Loss of 1-2 spells? Am I missing something?

Battle Sorcerer
"A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any)."

"A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level)."

That's a loss of 10 known and 9 per day. 10 known b/c stalwart+battle means you will only have 1 6th, 7th, 8th until you gain new spell levels, then are stuck at 2 spells known for those levels and only 1 9th. Choose wisely.



So here you are still taking a dip in martial for SBS, thus putting it on the exact same level curve as regular sorcerer gish. You may get into AB a level earlier, but now you have fewer spells doing so. In the fractional world, this is a net loss of .25 BAB, easily made up with 3/4 BAB PRC.

I still contend SBS loses more than it gains therefore is not as good of a gish as standard sorcerer with martial dip.

I stand corrected on the spells known. However, I still believe the ability to cast in armor remains valuable. An armored mage dip only grants you the ability to cast up to level 2 spells. Hardly beneficial.

The dip into a martial class for SBS is solely for the purpose of maximizing mundane benefits. A sorcerer/fighter/abjurant champion can hardly cast in full plate now can it?

You are also forgetting the other benefits SBS brings to the table you know. Like having a beefier familiar and the ability to singlehandedly have a combat capable companion and familiar. The higher health pool is pretty valuable for a front line fighter. A sorcerer gish tends to focus on a few spells most of the time anyway and so the spells known loss isn't quite the problem it is made out to be.

[Thunder999]

Casting in armour really isn't that valuable, especially not when it's light armour, you can get a chain shirt down to 0 ASF and 0 ACP so literally anyone can use one.
If luminous armour is an option then actual armour doesn't come close once you get those abjurant champion levels.

[bean illus]

You are also forgetting the other benefits SBS brings to the table you know. Like having a beefier familiar and the ability to singlehandedly have a combat capable companion and familiar. The higher health pool is pretty valuable for a front line fighter. A sorcerer gish tends to focus on a few spells most of the time anyway and so the spells known loss isn't quite the problem it is made out to be.

I actually had overlooked the synergy of the higher hp on the familiar. But, if you mean wild cohort, ... they're nice ... but they dont share spells.

Still, it's an interesting thought.

Here's a few bits i took from somewhere ...


The feat Dragon Steed (Draconomicon 105) grants the creature a dragonnel that serves "much like a cohort."
The feat Extra Familiar (Dragon #280 62) grants the creature an additional familiar. Note: Published way early in the Dungeons and Dragons, 3rd Edition life cycle, this feat's absent prerequisites and written assuming the creature already has a familiar. Talk to the DM.
The feat Wild Cohort (Random Encounters column "Wild Life") grants the creature a lesser version of the druid's animal companion.


In particular (if allowed), the extra familiar just plain doubles the juice on an SBS "companion". No prc, no multiclass, no level loss, and your other familiar feats (improved familiar) affect both familiars.

Now your buff spells affect all 3 of you.

[Darg]

I actually had overlooked the synergy of the higher hp on the familiar. But, if you mean wild cohort, ... they're nice ... but they dont share spells.

Still, it's an interesting thought.

Here's a few bits i took from somewhere ...


The feat Dragon Steed (Draconomicon 105) grants the creature a dragonnel that serves "much like a cohort."
The feat Extra Familiar (Dragon #280 62) grants the creature an additional familiar. Note: Published way early in the Dungeons and Dragons, 3rd Edition life cycle, this feat's absent prerequisites and written assuming the creature already has a familiar. Talk to the DM.
The feat Wild Cohort (Random Encounters column "Wild Life") grants the creature a lesser version of the druid's animal companion.


In particular (if allowed), the extra familiar just plain doubles the juice on an SBS "companion". No prc, no multiclass, no level loss, and your other familiar feats (improved familiar) affect both familiars.

Now your buff spells affect all 3 of you.

It's an ACF. You trade your familiar for an animal companion and then take the obtain familiar feat.

[Zaile]

I stand corrected on the spells known. However, I still believe the ability to cast in armor remains valuable. An armored mage dip only grants you the ability to cast up to level 2 spells. Hardly beneficial.

The dip into a martial class for SBS is solely for the purpose of maximizing mundane benefits. A sorcerer/fighter/abjurant champion can hardly cast in full plate now can it?

You are also forgetting the other benefits SBS brings to the table you know. Like having a beefier familiar and the ability to singlehandedly have a combat capable companion and familiar. The higher health pool is pretty valuable for a front line fighter. A sorcerer gish tends to focus on a few spells most of the time anyway and so the spells known loss isn't quite the problem it is made out to be.

I did forget about the clause on Armored Mage! Good catch. SBS can rock chain shirt from level 1, but when you have spells like mage armor and luminous armor (which can be cast on others), those pull ahead of mundane armor, so at best it's a wash as SBS gets more consistent protection, but regular Sorc gets better when he needs it (and has enough slots to select those spells).

The familiar is a good point too, though it's not an animal companion. However, SBS might be a good combo for Arcane Heirophant. Looking at the HP calculations below, 25 hp on a familiar is not "beefy" in my book. Beefier than normal, but not beefy enough to take the place of an animal companion in combat. Fragile flanker at best.

Side note: You can trade out the familiar feature and take the Obtain Familiar feat, it's 100x better than the feature and stacks with "total level in classes that let you cast arcane spells," like the beefier PRC levels in Ruathar and AB Champ.

I'm still not sold the light armor casting is with it since you can get -30% on any armor with low-level $$ and a level in spellsword. Spellsword's -10%, Thistledown -5%, Feycraft -5% and Twilight -10% for a total of 30% reduction, taking care of most medium and less armors.

Taking a look at HP, SBS gets almost double, VERY nice and makes the early levels less risky but that's the only benefit. HP matters less and less as special abilities kick in. Are 20-ish hp worth 9 spell per day and 10 spells known? Side not, looking at the HP difference, it's clear the developers didn't intend for these to be combined, that's Barbarian HP on a sorcerer when battel was meant to be a cleric in melee capability (what sorcerer should have been all along).

SBS > ABC (ignoring Con since it's the same in both cases, assuming half+1 average hp per die)
SBS 1: 10hp
SBS 2-7: 1d8(5)+2 (7) x 6 = 42
Total 52 @ 7th, BOSS HP

Sorc > martial 1 (d10) > Spellsword
martial 1: 10 HP
Sorc 6: 1d4 (3) x 6 = 18
Spellsword: 1d8 (5)
Total 33 @ 8th

Sorc > Martial 2 > Spellsword
Martial 1: 10 hp
Martial 2: 6
Sorc 4: 12
Spellsword 1: 5
Total:33 @ 7th
If Paladin is martial, You get Cha to all Saves and a Fort bump. Gain, 20 HP or this?

[Asmotherion]

It has to be worse but do try to remember that D4 HP as a frontline melee is going to be worse than D12 melee. Like... there is a very sizable HP difference between the two even if Bab was comparable. That HP and Bab stick around when polymorphing ect.

Sure, but how relevant this will be depends on the optimisation level. A sorcerer who wants to gish will probably have temporary HP spells, and generally a ton of useful all around Abjurations etc. Starmantle with Ruin Delver's Fortune, Energy Immunity, Protection from Death, Pact Spells and many other spells come to mind that are beyond the protection of actual HP (some in item form, others in spell form). Generally, anything past Low Optimisation means the Gish sorcerer should be virtually immune to all damage types except untyped damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm still not sold the light armor casting is with it since you can get -30% on any armor with low-level $$ and a level in spellsword. Spellsword's -10%, Thistledown -5%, Feycraft -5% and Twilight -10% for a total of 30% reduction, taking care of most medium and less armors.


SBS can also profit from the same option. If a SBS dips a martial and takes the Spellword dip, it can use it for Shields (e.g. heavy mithral shield) and still wear a light armor (or mithral medium armor) in combination with it. Since gish often poly into forms with high DEX modifiers, this can be the more desirable option compared to a Feycraft Twilight Mithral Full Plate.

_____________

And regarding the HP bonus of SBS. Sure, you stop profiting from it, if you should enter a PRC. But you get it when you need it the most: In the early Levels. A d4 HP Sorcerer/Wizard gish needs much DM fiat to not die within the first levels. Further, all the options mentioned so far to ignore a low HP score need either spells or magic items. Spells are cost heavy for a Sorcerer since he needs to pay em with his lil Spells known repertoire. The SBS can just wear the armor all the time and combined with the higher HP easily soak up some dmg. Further spell solutions worsen your Action Management at combat start. How many rounds are you gonna waste into buffing up at the start of each combat? Having access to many cool spells is one thing, being able to use em as a benefit and not as a burden (due to action costs) is another thing. Wasting more than a single round to buff up after the combat starts is overkill. And most of the time that spell will be Alter Self/Poly/Shapechange..

Most standard gish concepts look good on paper but struggle hard in actual play in the early levels. SBS is a reliable base to not just survive the early levels, but also to shine within those levels.

[bean illus]

Blood of Eberron? Wilderness Companion? They both have 1/2 druid levels, and neither stacks arcane classes.

Which acf am i looking for?

[Zaile]

SBS can also profit from the same option. If a SBS dips a martial and takes the Spellword dip, it can use it for Shields (e.g. heavy mithral shield) and still wear a light armor (or mithral medium armor) in combination with it. Since gish often poly into forms with high DEX modifiers, this can be the more desirable option compared to a Feycraft Twilight Mithral Full Plate.

_____________

And regarding the HP bonus of SBS. Sure, you stop profiting from it, if you should enter a PRC. But you get it when you need it the most: In the early Levels. A d4 HP Sorcerer/Wizard gish needs much DM fiat to not die within the first levels. Further, all the options mentioned so far to ignore a low HP score need either spells or magic items. Spells are cost heavy for a Sorcerer since he needs to pay em with his lil Spells known repertoire. The SBS can just wear the armor all the time and combined with the higher HP easily soak up some dmg. Further spell solutions worsen your Action Management at combat start. How many rounds are you gonna waste into buffing up at the start of each combat? Having access to many cool spells is one thing, being able to use em as a benefit and not as a burden (due to action costs) is another thing. Wasting more than a single round to buff up after the combat starts is overkill. And most of the time that spell will be Alter Self/Poly/Shapechange..

Most standard gish concepts look good on paper but struggle hard in actual play in the early levels. SBS is a reliable base to not just survive the early levels, but also to shine within those levels.

Can't argue with that. Very true. I just have a hard time giving up so many spells.

Also: Wizard with a shotgun is never a bad idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Darg]

Blood of Eberron? Wilderness Companion? They both have 1/2 druid levels, and neither stacks arcane classes.

Which acf am i looking for?

Those are both right. With natural bond you match up with a druid's companion up to level 6 and then you aren't too far behind after that. Grab companion spellbond feat from the PHBII after that and you can have an extremely capable combat companion.

[bean illus]

Blood of Eberron? Wilderness Companion? They both have 1/2 druid levels, and neither stacks arcane classes.

Which acf am i looking for?


Those are both right. With natural bond you match up with a druid's companion up to level 6 and then you aren't too far behind after that. Grab companion spellbond feat from the PHBII after that and you can have an extremely capable combat companion.

Ahhh, i see. Well, if one goes straight SBS, then natural bond puts us on par til level 8+, but falls behind above level 12. Levels don't stack, so prcs or multiclass hurts, but straight SBS and your "only" 2-4 hd, and 2-4 ac behind after mid levels. That could work, kinda.

Companion spellbond is a nice feat.

So, trade in your acf, and 3 feats, go straight SBS, and you'll have another feat available as soon as 9th level on a human. ... Which any sorcerer could do?

Well, i don't have any better ideas.

[ThanatosZero]

Has anyone considered yet the Sublime Chord?

A Sublime Chord may have less spells per day, but it beats the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer in regards to spells known with higher level spells.

Bard 7/Knight Phantom 2/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Knight 5/Knight Phantom +3 (5)

Bard (9) + Sublime Chord (10) at ECL 20



0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


Spells Known
6
4
4
3
4
4
4
4
3
2


Spells per Day
3
3
3
2
5
4
4
3
3
2



Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (20) at ECL 20



0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


Spells Known
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
1


Spells per Day
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5



If Epic is applied, the Sorcadin will straight up win.

[bean illus]

For that SBS familiar idea.



Miser with magic (Dragonlance, CL 7) You can make a Spellcraft roll to retain the use of a spell after you cast it. The spellcraft DC is 10 +twice the spell's level. If you succeed, you managed to conserve enough magical energy, from this and other spells you have cast, that the spell (or spell slots for sorcerors) is not considered spent and may be used again. You may only use this ability on a number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier appropriate to the type of spells you cast (charisma for sorceror or bard spells for example)
If you fail the roll by 5 or more, you spent insufficient energy to cast the spell at all. You lose the spell or the spell slot, and the spell has no effect.


Considering that a CL 9 caster could easily have 13 ranks, a +6 mod, and a +2 buff, I'd say that that's a good deal.

I assume that "number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier" means daily? A munchkin reading could claim 'per casting' (a limited reading could mean total ever).



Enspell Familiar (Cl 1, ability to gain a familiar) You are always considered to be in contact with your familiar for the purposes of sharing spells. Any spell you cast on yourself also affects your familiar as long as it is within 1 mile of you.


Yeah, that's super nice.



Dreadful Wrath (Human, Kua-toa, planetouched)- When you charge, make a full attack, or cast a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, you gain the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of you must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.


A minute is forever in combat. And fear effects stack. The mooks are finished, ... and you're AoE is still effecting ... hopefully everyone.