[Traveller] Objects in Space vs. Triplanetary (WIP)

[Lacco]

The aesthetic/reason this exists: I plan to run a campaign with what was described in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628423-Traveller-Ship-to-Ship-Combat). Spoilered also below.


Objects in Space makes you a pilot of an old freighter craft - but of course you can upgrade if you make enough money.

You can move between different stations in your ship.

Piloting/command centre:
https://aaron-fischer.net/images/commandcenter.png

You can use nav system to plot your routes and computer will navigate your ship through waypoints, or you can go for manual piloting (which is much harder to master, but very nice when you get it.

See the bluish cloud on the lower left part of the radar? That's a nebula you can hide in. It automatically masks some of your emissions.

Movement is based on thrust/counterthrust, no fancy grav engines and instant movement.

Detection is based on the amount of "noise" your vehicle makes on different frequencies. So for example, if you go to power management and shut down your engine and RCS system, you will not be able to change your direction or speed, but will be harder to detect by the other ships - both pirates and local law enforcement (which actually makes it possible to engage in smuggling without ever getting into combat if you know what you are doing - e.g. moving into nebula and shutting down everything means you can easily disappear - if you plan your movements well, you "turn" when you are in nebula and move in straight lines while going dark outside nebulas).


Power management is a big thing. Your reactor and engine are the "loudest" things you have - you can get a stealth version of both, and further modify them to give out even less emissions, but the decrease in efficiency will be felt.

https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2019/03/objects-in-space-review-5.jpg

On the command station, there is a switch that you can pull, which will turn most of your systems off (EMCONN), which you can configure in the power management screen.

Combat is torpedo-based. You can get a laser system, which is relatively useful against ships (you need to get close), but can also target torpedos, but your main weapon will be slow-moving torpedos, which you have to prep (using more energy), but are self-propelling then (until they run out of energy).

Finally, engineering.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/n0XpAfYGQHU/maxresdefault.jpg

Your ship systems can be modified using different components, but they can also get damaged or destroyed - during combat, getting hit by asteroids, in dark nebulas or even getting worn out.

In these cases, you need to get (or carry) spare parts, which you then have to place into the system.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdRiwfAVQAA6QBY.jpg

The image is of Kruger Interstellar Orchid main engine - the basic one. See the yellow pieces? These are components that you have to have. You must have at least one "route" from left to right filled in with components - if some get damaged, you may have redundancy - and it usually pays off to have a redundancy.

The combination of submarine-like combat + manual engineering parts and power management, all in RL, make for some tense, but rather entertaining moments.

Example: You go EMCONN to get away from particular well-armed ship undetected. You are drifting through space, invisible, but by switching everything off, you are practically blind. You also get hit by a torpedo that explodes nearby - doing some minor hull damage, but blasting your helm computer. So after few moments you switch on sensors & nav computer (which have some, but relatively minor emissions, so you stay sufficiently invisible) to see the situation - the ship has lost you and you are drifting to a nebula. The nav computer and sensors drain your batteries slowly - so by the time you reach nebula, you run out of energy. In the meantime, you rush to the engineering to switch around components - and since you don't have any spares, you take few redundant components from other subsystems, basically breaking open few systems just to get enough items to repair helm computer.

As you get back from engineering, you see you finally entered the nebula, but with no batteries - which makes your nav computer flicker and you are not sure if you are or are not followed. So you fire up your reactor, watching as power of batteries climbs slowly up.

By the time batteries are full, you see the ship has detected you and is bearing up on you.

You quickly switch switch on everything, make a turn and fire up the engine and then - again - switch down everything. Once few moments pass, you fire up the RCS, make a turn, and then fire up engine again, to change trajectory.

After few minutes, you run out of energy... so you switch everything on, take a look... and see the ship went for your previous trajectory, so is now rather far. You can make a run for it to a jump gate, safely.

...yeah, actual story. It was tense.

The game's graphics leave a lot to be desired, but the gameplay is extremely satisfying. There are bugs, and the learning curve is pretty steep (the tutorial is not really good in teaching you stuff) and it's the old school "try what works", but it's fun.

Also: it was created with arduinos in mind, so you can build your own console and even go further. I'm planning on doing this in the future.

https://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/news/291299/The%20PAX%20West%20setup.JPG

Video of said console: LINK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgdYKGlF96o)

It can be frustrating at times, but also extremely rewarding and enjoyable once you get to know the system a bit.


So, without further ado:


Luck & Drama Mechanic

Explanation: I like when characters have a way to sway unlucky rolls.

Each character starts with 3 points of Luck and 3 points of Drama.

Each point of Luck can be spent to determine a result of a roll by a player. A critical roll can not be achieved this way, only by spending 1 point of Luck & 1 point of Drama.

Drama can be spent to either cause a reroll (second result has to be accepted) or to add +1 to the existing roll. It can also be used to request a specific scene, or to add interesting detail to the scene.

Luck is given by the GM for:

extremely unlucky roll (that is not countered by Luck or Drama)
extremely lucky roll that saves the day (not achieved by Luck or Drama)
work pulled around the table,
once in a while.


Drama is given by the GM for:

great roleplay moments (players can submit other players‘ moments),
dramatic and tense intra-PC situations,
troubles and complications „provoked“ by players,
for fulfilling promises, doing jobs and exploration!


Drama can be exchanged for Luck in 3:1.

Each player keeps a sum of spent Luck/Drama points. In case a character dies, these can be used to provide advantage during next character generation.


Character Generation
You can use starting Drama & Luck within character generation. You can do so at any point within a term, but not for past terms (e.g. you can roll for mishap/injury and if you don’t like the resulting mishap, you can use luck to just pass the previous roll).

When rolling for a skill, you can decide to first roll, then choose a table on which to spend the roll.

If your character comes out the way you do not like, put it into rogue gallery. It is now an NPC or a template that other players can choose. Alternatively: it’s an additional crew member. You can only control a single character during one round – so the control will be switched – and you can give the control to other players too. But when not controlled, they are on cruise control.

It is assumed the game will mostly happen in space, some spaceports, with excursions to planets. Prepare for it. Everyone should have a useful spot on the ship, even if it's just doing the preventive maintenance, but should be prepared also to go out, exploring.

Party will start with a ship regardless of the outcome - if you get an ATV, spaceship or even a starship, it will be either used (added to the ship) or scrapped to provide ship shares.

For this campaign I expect everyone to be able to at least contribute in a firefight/personal combat, some exploration, but mainly in starship operation and starship combat.



In combat, each turn represents ten minutes (6 turns in one hour).

Outside combat, each turn represents one hour.

A turn usually includes one player-turn for each player or a RP scene.

Additional Actions:

Commander

A ship commanding officer rolls initiative for the ship.

New commander action:
Give Out Orders
Each round, a commander (elected, selected...) can give out orders to the crew. After orders are given, the commander rolls Leadership (6). If successful, the commander gains a boon or a reroll that he can freely assign to any crew member who follows the orders during the round.

Astrogator

The Astrogator examines the map and ship positions and plots the predicted course of their ship, based on their previous courses, using a marker on the map. Working from these predicted courses, the player determines what changes (if any) to make, and alters the courses accordingly.

The astrogator assigns Thrust to maneuvers to plan the trajectory of the ship. See Astrogation rules below.

Each point of Thrust Rating can be used to change trajectory (and velocity) of the ship, or – as per usual rules – to use combat maneuvers (Aid Gunners, Evasive Action or Docking).

Changing trajectory is considered Routine INT+Astrogation check when not under stress. However, the GM can require a roll with modifiers for more complicated maneuvers (planning of multiple checkpoints within one round, using gravity to slingshot, when planning trajectories without use active use of NavComputer, or in combat).

Pilot

Pilot mainly rolls to determine how well was the plotted course followed.


For a small craft (<100t), the astrogator and pilot can be a single person using only single action.
For a spaceship (100t, up to 500t), the roles should be separated, but can be managed by not rolling the astrogation roll from above but taking DM-2 to pilot roll (focusing more on trajectory).
For a large vessel (500t+), the roles need to be separated


After the trajectory has been determined, roll DEX + Pilot (4) to see if the plotted course was followed. The roll is modified by the difference of velocities (absolute difference, in hexes passed; if the ship changes its velocity from 4 to 6 hexes, the DM is -2) as well as the maneuver (for a turn, add DM-1, for a sharp turn, DM-2, for a U-turn, DM-3).




For Astrogation (moving in space, not only calculation of jumps) I’ll be using Triplanetary rules, available here (http://www.sjgames.com/triplan/2018rules.pdf).

These replace Starship Movement rules.

Applicable chapters from Triplanetary rules are Astrogation, Gravity, Weak Gravity, Landing and Takeoff, Orbit and Crashes.

Changes to these rules are:

A ship may burn one fuel point per turn use thrust rating to change its course, or spend it for evasion, aiding its gunners or docking . One fuel point Each point of thrust rating allows a ship to alter its predicted course by one hex in any direction.
When a ship has achieved its [thrust rating + 6] in velocity, it is at its limit. Further acceleration (except by gravity) is possible but incurs damage to the ship each round (cummulative). Once ship achieves [thrust rating + 12] in velocity, further acceleration is impossible.
Whenever Fuel Points are mentioned in Triplanetary rules, replace by Thrust rating (exception: Landing & Takeoff is mostly managed as in Traveller rules).



Following changes shall be made:
Turrets are only valid as point protection and for dogfighting (range: adjacent).
For ships above 50t, these cause only a single point of damage per hit (+1 for multiple weapons on a single turret).

When two ships cross paths or are in the same hex, they may engage in dogfight (as per standard Traveller2e rules).
When two ships fire at each other, distance bands are calculated per hex - one hex is close, two hexes short, etc.


Coming: Power Generation, Ship Creation, Weapons & changes.

[Lacco]

Ship Design

Ship section: a specific part of a ship (one these is usually Engineering; sample names are Engineering; Aft; Amidships; Main; Forward; Engineering) usually at least 50t large, up to 200t. These sections determine hit locations, hull and structure points, but are also used for power management. Sections are determined during design. (Not used for capital ships at this point.)

Hull
Changes:
Non-gravity hulls and hamster cages require power supply to rotate and therefore enable gravity.
For hamster cages, the required power is 5PP per ship section.
For non-gravity hulls this is 5PP per 100t.

A ship section will have 1 point of Hull per 5 tons of hull and 1 point of Structure per 20 tons of hull.

Drives

No changes.

Design & Power Management

Power Sources
Major change: power sources are improved by TL (brackets list additional efficiency).

Fission Power Plant
TL 6
PP: 5 per ton (+1 per 2 TL)
Cost 0,4 MCr per ton (+0,2 per 2 TL)
Fuel: hydrogen, 1t per week per ton of power plant (halves after TL 14)

Chemical Power Plant
TL 7
PP: 5 per ton (+2 per 3 TL)
Cost: 0,25 MCr per ton (+0,25 per 3 TL)
Fuel: chemical fuel; 5t of fuel per week of operation (-1t per 4TL)

Fusion Power Plant
TL 8
PP: 10 per ton (+2,5 per 2 TL up to 12, then +2 per TL))
Cost 0,5 MCr per ton (+0,5 per 2 TL)
Fuel: hydrogen, 1t per week per ton of power plant (halves after TL 12+)

Antimatter
TL 20
PP 100 per ton
Cost 10 MCr per ton
Fuel: antimatter, 1t per month

Solar Panels
TL 10
PP: 1 per ton (if not in vicinity of a star, halved)
Cost: 0,1 MCr
Fuel: unlimited

Batteries
TL 8
PP stored: 20 (10 per TL
Cost: 0,1 MCr (+0,2 per TL)
PP are stored when there is a leftover power; retrieved as one wishes.

Emergency Power
10% of power plant tonnage & cost



Basic Ship Systems

Artificial Gravity
Most ships use gravitic plates to generate sufficient level of artificial gravity. Gravitic plates have no additional cost in MCr or hull - they are the standard choice. If not installed, decrease the cost of hull by 5%. The power requirement is 5PP per ship section.
For hamster cages, the required power is 10PP per ship section.
For non-gravity hulls (rotating) this is 5PP per 100t.
Non-gravity ships (no gravity) can be used also, but with the long-term drawbacks.

Lighting
Emergency lighting is always installed at each ship. It has a power requirement of 1PP per ship section and covers only emergency exit lights and basic lighting of bridge.
Basic lighting has a power requirement of 2PP per ship section and provides sufficient light (think your standard fluorescent tube light - bland and irritating).
Luxury lighting can be programmed to any intensity or color. It has the power requirement of 3PP per ship section.

HVAC
Heating, ventilation and cooling systems use 2PP to 5PP per ship section normally - depending on the difference in temperatures they have to produce.
2PP means there is only basic ventilation to cycle the air (emergency option). In battle, this may mean that engineering gets overheated rather quickly, but if a ship is drifting in deep space, it becomes cold rather fast.
3PP means there is basic heating or cooling required (few degrees of difference). This is the standard option.
4PP is for serious cooling/heating issues.
5PP is when HVAC is working overtime (e.g. trying to quickly freeze part of the ship or overheat it).

Air recycler unit (1t) filters the air in the ship and provides stable level of oxygen. One unit provides relatively fresh air for 10 persons for a month (this is usually enough for 100t ship; so the amount of air recycler units necessary is equal to total of persons in the ship divided by ten or its tonnage divided by one hundred, whichever is higher) and consumes 2PP when running on 100%. Air filter units are usually able to provide more air temporarily, when overcharged (doubling the amount of PP provides 50% increase in production, tripling provides additional 25%). Temporary mobile air filters (weighing 0,5t per unit, cost of 200,000 Cr, TL9, consume 2PP and provide fresh air for 4 persons for two weeks) can be bought.

While an air recycler freshens the air, the air in the ship is finite - if a ship runs out of oxygen, the air recycler units are useless.

One ton of water (stored in tanks) provides fresh air for a single person for a month.

Water & Sewage
Water recycler (1t) filters and recycles "used" water. It provides fresh water for 4 persons for a month, costs 50,000Cr. It consumes 2PP when running.


Food & Storage
Automated Food Storage Units are basically vending machines.
A standard issue covers relatively wide array of food types (depending on brand of food storage unit, TL and local recipes), but made mainly from basic ingredients and flavours (e.g. synth-meat, various flours, frozen tubers and beans processed into "chicken ). Low-end food storage units provide only basic food capsules, nutri-paste and dehydrated porridges.
Food Storage Units can be refilled at any spaceport, but only in full (meaning any leftovers are gone) - based on local offer.
Standard issue AFSU consume 1PP when idle (to preserve the supplies from spoiling), with additional 2PP when running. Costs are around 50,000Cr per single machine, with low-end ones costing half and the best ones costing up to 500,000Cr.
Low-end AFSU do not consume PP when idle, but consume 1PP when running.

Kitchen (4t per 10 persons served, additionally +5 persons per 1t) is assumed for medium passage (at least one hot meal per daycycle) and required for high passage (5 meals per daycycle). A kitchen requires a dedicated crew member as a cook and additional assistants (dedicated cook can cover 10 persons +2 per 2 points of effect above the roll; 1 assistant covers additional 5 people served) when running (depending on crew's decision anywhere from 1 to 5 times per day). When running, kitchen consumes about 5PP per 10 persons served.

Mess hall for 10 persons costs 4t. Additional tonnage provides space for 4 persons per 1t.

Food Storage Area requires specific temperature and ventilation, consuming 2PP per ton assigned. One ton of stored food provides enough sustenance for 10 persons for single month.



Security

Door & Bulkhead
If not stated otherwise, interior ship doors are controlled manually.
Standard door can be controlled manually (no additional cost), automatically or via mini-terminals (consume 1PP per section, increase the cost of a ship hull by 0,5%).
Bulkhead

Cameras
Detectors and Sensors
Automated Defences
Brig


Bridge
Holographic bridge requires 5PP per 10t.

A bridge usually comes with a single Helm (terminal specialized for piloting), Nav Computer (terminal specialized for astrogation), Sensor Station and a Comm Station.

Computer
Main & Backup Core
Computer cores provide processing power - bandwidth - to the whole ship. A single computer core unit (TL 12) provides 10 points of bandwidth, costs 0,5 MCr and takes up 1t of space. It consumes 2 PP per unit. In case a higher TL is purchased, price is increased by 20%, but one advantage may be taken per level of TL higher (maximum of 2 disadvantages may be taken to counter the price increase).

Terminals
Each terminal requires 1 point of bandwidth and 1 PP.
Basic terminals are able to provide basic functionality (ship library, comms, information on the passengers/crew/cargo, limited by security rules). Dedicated terminals (e.g. nav computers, helm...) provide specific functionality (in addition to basic), but may also provide bonus to the crew when using it. Specialized terminals (e.g. security/comm terminals) can be used only for their stated uses.

Specialized terminals:
Nav Computer
Nav computer allows the astrogator to plan the route, place the nav points and calculate the thrust to navigate the system.
Autonav programs allow this role to be filled by AI, only taking basic information (e.g. setting target) to calculate the safest, fastest or least thrust-consuming route, but these usually do not count with other objects in space and may easily miscalculate without input of a skilled operator.

Helm
Helm is used by the pilot to fly the ship. Where the navigator calculates the route and plans meticulously the thrust to be applied, it is up to the pilot to actually fly the ship and - with help of the software - take the decisions. Especially the little adjustments - to avoid an unknown object here, to avoid a ship there.
Autopilot can be in form of "dog brain" that just takes the information from the nav computer and exactly performs the turns and applies thrust - which is fine and well when flying through an empty swath of space while taking a nap, but not when in the middle of a busy system. Or it can be a full-blown AI that also modifies the trajectory according to all available information (unless it makes an error, which happens - sometimes - or unless it decides to be extra careful).

Sensor Station
Comm Station


Crew & Passengers

Bunks (low staterooms)
2 beds and double locker, nothing more, nothing less. 1 ton. No power requirements.
Staterooms
2 beds, a locker, a terminal, shower and toilet. 4 tons. 1PP
Apartments
2 rooms (4 beds, lockers, terminal, bathroom and toilet). 8 tons. 2PP
Luxury Staterooms
3 rooms (2-4 beds, lockers, terminals, bathroom and toilet, additional space - living room, comfort and luxury). 20 tons. 5PP
Low Berth
1ton, 2 PP (can run on emergency 1PP with a battery that lasts 12h - after that an emergency unthawing starts)
Multi-Environment Area
Equipment takes 1t to provide environmental conditions for 20t of space (e.g. 5 staterooms). 10PP per unit.


Cargo & Storage

Fuel Scoops & Processors
A T12 Fuel Processor weights 1t and requires 5PP for operation, while purifying 24t of unrefined fuel per day. Efficiency of these can be modified by spending less power. An increase in TL by 2 levels increases either the yield (by 20%) or decreases power consumption (1PP), while increasing the cost by 10%. One ton of fuel processor equipment costs 50,000 Cr.
Cargo Hold
Cargo hold is usually determined as the unused space inside the ship minus 10% (for corridors). However, if the ship has spacious corridors, additional 10% of space needs to be reduced. If there are only crawlspaces and narrow corridors, no additional space can be used as cargo hold.
Enclosures for animals need to be prepared ahead of time. If these are electrified/secured, a power supply of 5PP per 4t needs to be provided.
Multi-Environment Cargo Area
Equipment takes 1t to provide environmental conditions for 10t of cargo area. 5PP per unit.
Drones
Mining Drones
Repair Drones
Vehicles

Pods
Escape Pod
Emergency (Panic) Pods
Utilities
Cargo Crane


Workshops and Labs
Workshops and laboratories

Weapons
Turrets are only used in dogfight rules (versus adjacent ships) and as point defences. When used against large ships (50t+) not adjacent (distance of one hex+), they only provide 1 damage per 1D.
When bay weapons and barbettes are installed outside of hardpoints, they consume double tonnage.

Defensive Systems

Luxuries

[Lacco]

Reserved for Weapons/Starship equipment.

[Cluedrew]

Objects in Space sounds like a lot of fun but it is also single player (or it sounds that way from the description) which raises the issue: Is this a party based role-playing game because it doesn't seem like there is a lot for different players to do. There are three crew roles and one of them doesn't appear to make any decisions. So what do the other players do? Neither Objects in Space not Triplanetry seem to have an answer for that.

[Lacco]

Objects in Space sounds like a lot of fun but it is also single player (or it sounds that way from the description) which raises the issue: Is this a party based role-playing game because it doesn't seem like there is a lot for different players to do. There are three crew roles and one of them doesn't appear to make any decisions. So what do the other players do? Neither Objects in Space not Triplanetry seem to have an answer for that.

This experiment of mine is planned to be mainly PbP role playing game - which may make it easier in a certain way (e.g. comms & astrogation; I'll get there later) due to lower time constraints on certain parts.

Also: I stopped updating the whole thing because I seem to have lost the original idea and instead started reworking the ship-building system. Which was a bit too much, so I am currently rethinking a lot.

You are right with the crew roles. While Triplanetary makes astrogation & piloting into a game of its own, in certain way, the other players still need something to do - but there is a lot to do, actually. There are few points where tinkering might be necessary, but overall, the main idea is that there is too much to do and the crew needs to pick their priorities.

This is same with OiS, especially at the beginning. The start of the game gives you basically a flying brick with terrible systems, and you need to plan every turn, every choice, because if you choose to download your mail in the middle of turning, it may cause you to run out of energy. The engine and RCS gobble the energy like there's no tomorrow and if you need to hide (you have no weapons at the beginning), you basically shut down everything that you can.

What do the other players do while the astrogator plans the trip and the pilot sits there, correcting the course?

If OiS was a multiplayer game (one ship, multiple crew members), the balance would be thrown off. You'd have much easier time, as the multitasking is mostly gone. It's well balanced for a single player, because the rust bucket you get at the beginning (I love the ship) is sufficiently bad that you always have something to take care of, but there is some time to spare - the ship becomes the balancing point. If the ship is too good, there is nothing to do; if the ship is too bad, you can't do anything.

But let's look at the individual activities for the game:
The engineer has to make sure the systems that are necessary have enough energy (energy management minigame). They also need to energize the subsystems (as most of them take time to boot even if there is enough energy). In case the reactor is turned off (you go into the silent mode), you need to prioritize which systems get the energy first (basically prioritizing which systems work first, which later). You should also be able to reroute additional power to certain subsystems to provide temporary boost (e.g. more power to the lasers, better signal for comms, etc.). There is also the "shut down stuff to make sure we don't give too much heat/emissions" stealth approach/mechanic.

So basically: the energy management. A worker placement minigame, but very specific.

The maintenance guy/gal has to perform maintenance - when something breaks, they have to exchange the component for spares, or juryrig it. They also have to diagnose, repair, perform preventive maintenance, and find the correct components, oftentimes in the heat of a battle. The fun thing is that I already have some crazy ideas (see the other thread in OD&D section) related to the maintenance. There will always be small components burning out when you have overtax your systems and there will always be the guy to replace them. Maintenance should also cover small things like repairs to the hull, ship systems and other thing - don't want to run out of oxygen during a fight just because the filter has not been changed. Also: firefighting in SPAAAACE!

Intended mechanics: damage workflows, running around the ship finding similar components & the ship just braking down.

Now these are just the ones related to the engineering; so to the others:

OiS has a very interesting sensor mechanic, which could be expanded for PbP. You got some "ghosts" often (emissions coming from objects in space that are not ships) - and you could often estimate if this is a ship waiting for you to make the mistake of ignoring it, or preventively avoid it. Often just knowing ahead that there is an enemy could easily win you the fight - as most ships kept their IFF on. Most of the time, when your sensors are on, you get information on any visible object once you lock on it - basically telling you an estimation of what systems the ship/object is running based on emission levels & frequencies.

So a sensor station: deciding whether to do a wide or narrow scan, a pulse (active) or just passive, gathering the data and deciding which sensor set to use (e.g. densitometers will give you completely different data than lidar or EM), evaluating the "ghosts", locking on to ships, detecting threats.

Comms... yeah, this one was underused in OiS, but there should be lots of send & receive on local systems. News, discussions, official communication (e.g. permissions), local authorities requesting information, ship captains just chatting, traders offering space/cargo exchange, people requesting "ride" out of trouble or just for kicks, corps trying to find freelancers. It's not really an issue until you are swamped by the stuff, but getting a call that you can't really refuse in the middle of a chase is... something I want to see. Jamming is also something you want to have. The good thing is, that with the distances I plan to use in-game, PbP format will work. You don't have a discussion face-to-face ala Star Trek, you send pre-recorded messages and get replies within few minutes. No idea what else, too tired.

Other topics to cover: gunnery, ship security, stewards (and passengers), medic, workshops, labs. + decisions.

[Cluedrew]

Triplanetary managed to introduce a surprising innovation that makes it work a lot better then my best attempt at a momentum based space war-game: use a hex-grid. I suppose I haven't run side-by-side tests but it seems to work out better than squares or continuous space when I run things in my head. And half of the space games use hex-grids I'm not sure how I didn't think of that.

But outside of the war game, I have a stalled role-playing game concept for a space game. Of course in that one the ship was basically camp. (I still need a hundred ways for it to break though.) I think you are going to have make everything a complex mini-game out of everything.

Let's take gunnery. I latched onto that because in your typical tactical game that boils down to one of the simplest component actions: I attack. Yeah that happens to be someone's entire job. Now some of that can be writing appropriate flavour text. But you might want things like fire patterns, different types of guns (even on a low-level ship) that have different power draws, different types of stored ammunition. Or at least that is what you got to do if you want everyone to have some mechanical depth. I'm not sure if that is what you are going for.

[Lacco]

EDIT: Also, thanks for the inputs. It's good to have someone who wants to discuss this stuff.


Triplanetary managed to introduce a surprising innovation that makes it work a lot better then my best attempt at a momentum based space war-game: use a hex-grid. I suppose I haven't run side-by-side tests but it seems to work out better than squares or continuous space when I run things in my head. And half of the space games use hex-grids I'm not sure how I didn't think of that.

For a long time I opposed the idea of a hex grid, but yeah. It works well with the Triplanetary mechanics and it's almost traditional for Traveller. So I will definitely use it.


But outside of the war game, I have a stalled role-playing game concept for a space game. Of course in that one the ship was basically camp. (I still need a hundred ways for it to break though.) I think you are going to have make everything a complex mini-game out of everything.

I completely understand what you mean. And in a way you are correct: there either have to be no minigames (which makes the game rather bland in certain way) or there has to be equal opportunity - minigames for all.

Also: there are certain... how to put this? Not really legendary ships, but ships that are sufficiently revered that they almost become a character by themselves in fiction. Millenium Falcon. Nostromo. Bebop. Enterprise. I know that if I had a ticket that provides one with entry to one of these ships to be able to try them out I would use it and so would half of this forum (okay, Nostromo would not be so popular maybe).

My first idea was to rework the system and include the Triplanetary nav minigame, but currently I am thinking about something different. Two or three player ships, each well detailed. A simplified system for enemy ships. And focus on the gameplay - the minigames, as you would say (and I would agree).

I'm currently thinking about abandoning the Traveller paradigm - you know, universal system for any game you want - and going straight for something that suits the game I am thinking about. I'll explain below.

EDIT: As for the hundred ways for it to break... yeah, check the damage flowcharts for Renegade Legion. And if you want, I'll gladly help. My job is basically analysing tech for potential breaking points. And I'll gladly do it on my free time.


Let's take gunnery. I latched onto that because in your typical tactical game that boils down to one of the simplest component actions: I attack. Yeah that happens to be someone's entire job. Now some of that can be writing appropriate flavour text. But you might want things like fire patterns, different types of guns (even on a low-level ship) that have different power draws, different types of stored ammunition. Or at least that is what you got to do if you want everyone to have some mechanical depth. I'm not sure if that is what you are going for.

I hate the "I attack!" declaration. Of course you attack! What else would you do in combat? *sarcasm*

I love systems where "I attack!" is not enough. Also, systems where ship captain has options regarding his commands and it's not just "You! Roll well on Pilot Check. And you, make sure to roll well on gunnery check!". But that's a personal pet peeve of mine.

Fire patterns are great idea. Another idea is "reloading" - when you have energy weapons, you have to power them and save enough power for them to punch at a distance: so your job as the gunner would be choosing the pattern, ensuring the power level is sufficient, aiming - or even predicting the movements - and firing at the appropriate time. At dogfighting distance (inside the same hex) you could jump into a turret and shoot down few fighters or a dozen of missiles, but if you want to punch through a ship armor at several million km distance, you have to spend few rounds powering up the laser.

And making sure it does not overheat - because there is a limit. So you have to basically run around the two or three gunnery stations - if there is nobody to help - because we are either talking about a refitted old freighter that has the weapons built into the cargo bay sides, a escort carrier that has been stripped of most weapons to make space for cargo or almost-scrapped consular corvette that was renewed by someone who did not really care about comfort or suitability, but mainly about using all space (yeah, these are the three lucky "starting" ships).

So, your turn may consist of setting a wide pattern (bonus to hit as it covers wider area, decreased damage as you are sure to miss some) for your meson bay and starting its power-up sequence, then running down half of the ship to fire the triple laser turret (which was powering for last 3 rounds to be able to fire at 6-hex distance and still damage the enemy ship) before it overloads/overheats and then going to calculate the fire solution for torpedo bay for next round.

Oh, by the way, the sensor guy could not reach you as the last hit shorted the internal comms and it took the maintenance guy 20 minutes to get there after plugging the hole in the hull: we have incoming! You stop the calculation and run towards the other turret to try to hit the missiles as they approach.

Now this is something I'd like to see - and as suggestion, head to this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628423-Traveller-Ship-to-Ship-Combat&p=25026509#post25026509)thread - the last discovery it provided was the old Renegade Legion (1e, not 2e) damage flowcharts. A work of art that I'll definitely replicate.

Also: this is a personal project, not to be used for profit or publication. It's just something I'd like to GM (or even play if the miracle happens). Should have put that into some disclaimer.

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Now, one thing I haven't seen discussed is... if we focus purely on PbP, what advantages can we use? I'm definitely planning to provide certain ship stats only to some of the roles/character (e.g. the engineer and mechanic get the damage flowcharts; the captain only gets basic overview), there is the positive side of having the chance to simulate the "submarine-like" slow combat...

[Cluedrew]

I'm currently thinking about abandoning the Traveller paradigm - you know, universal system for any game you want - and going straight for something that suits the game I am thinking about. I'll explain below. [...] And if you want, I'll gladly help. My job is basically analysing tech for potential breaking points. And I'll gladly do it on my free time.Yes I don't really believe in generic systems. I think you have to go for a particular feel or go all in with a toolbox system that lets people build a particular feel. Which actually gets into why I was having trouble creating all the ways the ship could break – it's tied up in the core loop and the stories you tell with the system. If I start that thread I'll get into the details. It is a solvable problem but I just had other things to do.


Also: this is a personal project, not to be used for profit or publication. It's just something I'd like to GM (or even play if the miracle happens). Should have put that into some disclaimer.You know I had honestly never considered the copyright/legal status of what I say on the forum (I put some work into my posts, but not that much), but I'm pretty sure that would be fine. Non-profit publication would also be fine. I'd have to think about for profit work.


Now, one thing I haven't seen discussed is... if we focus purely on PbP, what advantages can we use? I'm definitely planning to provide certain ship stats only to some of the roles/character (e.g. the engineer and mechanic get the damage flowcharts; the captain only gets basic overview), there is the positive side of having the chance to simulate the "submarine-like" slow combat...And it may seem that I am dancing around the main topic, but I think I am done now because the tools you have to play this game very important to what you can do in it.

I think the ideal forum format would be something with kind of loose turn order rules (or even you can usefully pass if you are having a busy day and everyone else is eager) or maybe just not many turns but you do a lot in each one. A bit of both might give you something like: Members of the crew say what they are doing (which often takes up multiple or an indefinite number of turns) and if they miss a couple rounds its fine.

Say power control (whoever that is) has all the power everyone needs and they have a bit to spare right now they can start charging the local teleport capacitor which is going to need another 5 turns. They can skip the next four turns if they want, there might be able to come in and make adjustment or just post some flavour text. Unless a ship shows up really close after going dark and we need all the point-defence turrets up right now.

For other tools: If you want hidden information you are either going to need private messages or spoilers. (And players with some self restraint in both cases.) Something that doesn't need (or even discourages) much back and forth between players before actions could be good as that would drag out each action. Maybe that is OK. Computerized tools are of course at ready access. I don't have time for fancy examples for those right now.

[Lacco]

Yes I don't really believe in generic systems. I think you have to go for a particular feel or go all in with a toolbox system that lets people build a particular feel. Which actually gets into why I was having trouble creating all the ways the ship could break – it's tied up in the core loop and the stories you tell with the system. If I start that thread I'll get into the details. It is a solvable problem but I just had other things to do.

I believe the system mechanics can be relatively generic - when you are able to examine the mechanic on its own and determine where it fits and where not, you are able to get some generic system. However, I agree that "You can play any sci-fi in this system" does not work - there is an extreme difference between Dune, Star Wars and Nonstop, so you can not really fit those under one system well.

You can try, of course.

But currently, I think games with certain aesthetic, whose mechanics fit the aesthetic - or even better, emphasize it - are "in", so to speak. Yes, you could theoretically play any of the above mentioned games in D&D, but its mechanics do not fit every genre/aesthetic well, so it's not optimal choice.

I am thinking of using only the chargen of Traveller (I find it extremely fun and engaging on its own), the basic mechanic and most of the crunch (skills, close combat, trading), but focusing generally on the adventures of a ship crew. Mainly similar to the experiences provided in the Objects in Space.


You know I had honestly never considered the copyright/legal status of what I say on the forum (I put some work into my posts, but not that much), but I'm pretty sure that would be fine. Non-profit publication would also be fine. I'd have to think about for profit work.

It's more about stating "I don't mind borrowing from other sources" since I'm not in it for the money - it's just... you know. I want to play a game like this.


And it may seem that I am dancing around the main topic, but I think I am done now because the tools you have to play this game very important to what you can do in it.

I have no idea what to make of this sentence. Maybe I'm just too tired. Long day at work.


I think the ideal forum format would be something with kind of loose turn order rules (or even you can usefully pass if you are having a busy day and everyone else is eager) or maybe just not many turns but you do a lot in each one. A bit of both might give you something like: Members of the crew say what they are doing (which often takes up multiple or an indefinite number of turns) and if they miss a couple rounds its fine.

Well, yes. Since the combat round that I have in mind is 1h long (dogfights take much shorter, so you'll have multiple dogfight rounds in one starship combat round), the characters can discuss, run around the ship, and even miss a personal round or two before one ship combat round passes. Of course, speeding up time is also possible if they have all they need at hand.

So loose turns, yes, definitely.

In this case it's basically resource management (time, energy, worker placement) on side of the players. Which, combined with natural risk management within RPGs is sufficient to keep thing interesting.


Say power control (whoever that is) has all the power everyone needs and they have a bit to spare right now they can start charging the local teleport capacitor which is going to need another 5 turns. They can skip the next four turns if they want, there might be able to come in and make adjustment or just post some flavour text. Unless a ship shows up really close after going dark and we need all the point-defence turrets up right now.

For other tools: If you want hidden information you are either going to need private messages or spoilers. (And players with some self restraint in both cases.) Something that doesn't need (or even discourages) much back and forth between players before actions could be good as that would drag out each action. Maybe that is OK. Computerized tools are of course at ready access. I don't have time for fancy examples for those right now.

I've read an interesting design article, called "Play Tomorrow". It basically suggested doing playtests with unfinished goods (of course, explaining the limitations), so my current design goal is to have a single workstation prepared with most of the rules by the end of the week. I'm thinking gunnery (a laser turret, two bays) and a simple scenario (1 player ship vs. 1 enemy ship and one fighter, some missiles potentially). Start at a distance with only a single player.

I'm thinking gunnery mostly because Triplanetary already offers sufficient complexity for the poor guy who will pilot the ship - no need to dump more on their shoulders - and I'm still not feeling too comfortable regarding the damage control/maintenance/engineering.

Didn't really have time to work on the damage workflows, but maybe I'll get some ideas from the current test.

Any ideas? Suggestions?

[Cluedrew]

I'll have to print this on a sign and put it inside my GM screen. But I'll have to get a GM screen first.Did you borrow the one in your picture?


[An article] basically suggested doing playtests with unfinished goods (of course, explaining the limitations), so my current design goal is to have a single workstation prepared with most of the rules by the end of the week. I'm thinking gunnery (a laser turret, two bays) and a simple scenario (1 player ship vs. 1 enemy ship and one fighter, some missiles potentially). Start at a distance with only a single player.
[...]
Any ideas? Suggestions?That is actually how I run my play-tests so I agree. I guess the next thing you might want to start with is figuring out how to split everything into multiple roles. Of course some of this will depend on the results of your play-test. Maybe there is enough going on in gunnery role that you can split off drone operator*, but if they are relatively simple keep them together. They only reason you might want to start thinking about that early is so you can leave "space" for them. But you might be able to do it.

* The disposable fighter screens and scout probes should be unmanned. Manned variants imply a large scale to the game.

[Lacco]

Did you borrow the one in your picture?

Incidentally, I asked for a "surprised/perplexed walrus GM with a bountiful mustache" and got the GM screen for free. Which is fun as I do not usually use a GM screen.

I have used GM screen only once - and that was a horror game, so I needed to use Paranoia rules mainly to increase the tension. Otherwise I roll in the open and my handwriting is terrible so nobody ever guesses what I wrote down.


That is actually how I run my play-tests so I agree. I guess the next thing you might want to start with is figuring out how to split everything into multiple roles. Of course some of this will depend on the results of your play-test. Maybe there is enough going on in gunnery role that you can split off drone operator*, but if they are relatively simple keep them together. They only reason you might want to start thinking about that early is so you can leave "space" for them. But you might be able to do it.

* The disposable fighter screens and scout probes should be unmanned. Manned variants imply a large scale to the game.

My current plan:
1. Gunnery
a) create a believable scenario (e.g. a triple laser turret, a ion cannon - barbette, small torpedo bay and a small fusion gun bay on a 400t refit freighter with damaged power plant)
b) basic rules (rolls, movement between gunnery stations)
c) options (e.g. spread, payload, ammo, energy levels, etc)
d) run simple scenario (fixed enemy actions)

2. Power Management & Engineering
3. Damage Flowcharts & Maintenance
4. Sensors
5. Multi-station ship experiment

Points 1-4 will be first tested standalone, as scenarios with relatively fixed enemies/situation. Point 5 should be a scenario using multiple characters at multiple stations at the same time.

And then we'll see.

I'll also need some volunteers. But that can wait until I'm finished with point 1. Maybe someone will sign for a gunnery sim.

Thanks for the idea of drone operator. Forgot about that one. As for the probes, those belong to the Sensors guy. Fighter screens... what do you mean?

[Cluedrew]

I don't have much to say because unless you have more points to raise it is mostly: Yeah, do that and let me know how it goes.
Thanks for the idea of drone operator. Forgot about that one. As for the probes, those belong to the Sensors guy. Fighter screens... what do you mean?Random example ability from some larger scale games where you have cheap units that absorb damage that would otherwise be directed at more valuable troops. Commonly used in games where one side generates hits and the other assigns them to their own troops. On its own they could be replaced by shields by there are other things that you can do with drones and I feel like damage that doesn't go into the flowchart might still be a useful ability.