5e (Party) Throwdown - The unremarkables. [Archive]

Willowhelm

2021-04-06, 11:17 PM

With apologies to Dork_Forge for loosely stealing their throwdown format.
Also apologies for starting a whole new thread. This has come from my other thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629666-STR-Huh-What-is-it-good-for-(Please-read-OP-for-context)).

The concept:

You are an adventuring party but you look entirely ordinary.

The fluff:

When the fame and glory go to the others, you are given the more delicate, covert missions. You can travel behind enemy lines as refugees, enter a prison as prisoners, be employed as servants at the kings castle, as farm hands, day labourers or any number of other mundane “commoner” situations. But when the time comes, you are fully ready for whatever the world throws at you.

Behind enemy lines you perform your sabotage, steal the plans, ambush the troops.. then disappear into the nameless masses.

As prisoners you wait for your moment and then break free, instantly at full strength, overpowering the guards and breaking out the target.

As servants you are close at hand, ignored by the assassins intent on killing the king. His ostentatious guards take the fall but you spring into action to save him.

Peace talks are about to happen between your kingdom and another. The prince requires protection. The talks will occur in a neutral location and the diplomats will be escorted there by a small group of scribes and advisors. You take the role of the scribes but the talks fail and you must thwart the ambush and escort the prince back safely.

You sit in the tavern drinking until closing time without anyone raising an eye. As the owner comes to kick you out and shut the door you incapacitate him and move on through the cellar to take care of the cult that has been working out of the tunnels below. You leave immediately after with nobody in town any the wiser, leaving no trace other than the confused owner who wakes up in the empty tavern.

You need to deal with bandits in the area. They don’t seem interested in wealth - they are kidnapping people. Nobody has been able to track them down and they only attack “safe” targets. Travelling down the high road you make ideal bait.

The King’s famous adventurers went on a high profile quest recently. The king believes they are in trouble but the people can’t see them fail. For the good of the kingdom you need to go and get them out of whatever they’ve gotten themselves into but for the sake of everyone’s reputation you can’t been seen to be helping them.

The aim:

A full party that can deal with everything a campaign might normally throw at them.

Rules:

Any source books. Tasha’s custom lineage etc is fair game.

Multiclassing and feat optional rules in play

The civilisation is majority humans. Other PHB races (and variants thereof) are allowed except Tieflings - they will stand out immediately.

You will have to pass through some form of checkpoint under close scrutiny: eg pat-down, belongings searched, detect magic etc. (Your magical TSA equivalent). Is is assumed you cannot bypass this checkpoint by mundane or magical means. (i.e The area is covered by forbiddance, and you are provided with papers at the checkpoint to certify you have passed through)

After the checkpoint there will be an indeterminate amount of time before the brown stuff hits the fan. You will still be observed during this time but not as intensively.

You will need to act immediately.

Hopefully the examples above give some guidance of the general flavour I’m looking for. If you would like additional clarification of any restrictions please ask and I will update this post.

Clarifications:
* The "party" can be a single PC if you believe they can handle everything a "standard" adventuring party of 4 could. Eg. playing through an official published adventure without scaling.

* The challenge is for lvl 1-20, playing with the restrictions the whole time. Your tactics can change as you gain more options to overcome the challenges but you can't just jump to a high level where your build is online.

* It has been suggested that their should be a level cap at 12. I am more than happy for you to stop your build at the point where you believe the restrictions have been trivialised and further levels would play just like any normal party.

* The "fluff" examples above are not intended to be an exhaustive list. They are examples to give an idea of the style of play intended. Assume that the party will be facing level-appropriate encounters with the addition of the challenge's restrictions.

* Worn armor at the checkpoint will be detected. You may have a work around that deals with this (eg. subtle cast modify memory) but it is not considered "normal".

*The options/tactics/strategy should be reliable. A reliable talent rogue with expertise might get a dagger through the checkpoint every time but your level 1 rogue can't take the risk. An eloquence bard might be able to persuade the guards that the huge gem is costume jewellery and not an arcane focus but a low CHA wizard isn't going to etc etc.

* The period after the checkpoint will allow for casting long lasting buffs that require an action. Those buffs must pass a cursory glance - if you now have orbs circling your head it will be obvious. Preparation activity that requires multiple minutes (eg ritual casting, donning armor etc) would be noticed. As ever... unless your solution circumvents this. Eg. your fighter might be replaced by a silent image of them at the same time that they enter the genie warlock's vessel to put their armor on.

* The "act immediately" is intended to mean that you will not know when the encounter occurs so you will not be prepared with an always-on shillelagh or similar.

Suggested format:

For each party member:
Level 20 level split:
Race:
Stats: Str x Dex x Con x Int x Wis x Cha x
Background:

Starting level:
At 5th level:
At 11th level:
At 17th level:
At 20th level and final thoughts:

Party synergy/solution approach:
At 5th level:
At 11th level:
At 17th level:
At 20th level and final thoughts:

Jon talks a lot

2021-04-07, 10:14 AM

I don't really want to do a full party. Could I just make one character?
This seems like a great deal of work.

Edit: I'm going to edit this over the course of multiple days while I brainstorm the perfect party.

PC#1: vHuman Order of Scribes Wizard

Race: vHuman
Class: Wizard 20
Subclass: Order of Scribes
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 15 +1CON, 15+1 INT, 8 WIS, 10 CHA
ASI's: Resilient CON @1, +2 INT @4, +2 INT @8, Alert @12, +1 CON, +1 DEX @16, Lucky @19
Background: Sage, Hermit, or Acolyte
Starting Level: Any

At 5th Level: Gain access to 3rd level spells, most notably dispel magic, counterspell, and fireball.

At 11th Level: 6th level spells

At 17th Level: 9th level spells.

At 20th Level: Signature spells and spell mastery.

This build is good because it's just a regular human. Even a wizard shouldn't be all that uncommon in the employ of the crown. Being order of the scribes gives you good reasons/alibis to be where you are.

PC#2: Celestial Warlock

(This is literally the build by Ludic Savant)

Race: vHuman
Class: Warlock
Subclass: Celestial/Pact of the Tome
Ability Scores: 8 STR, 14+1 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 15+1 CHA
ASI's: Moderately Armored @1, +2 CHA @4, +2 CHA @8, War Caster @12, +2 CON @16, Lucky @19
Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Maddening Hex
Background: Any
Starting Level: Any

At Level 5: 16 DEX, 18 CHA, with 9 cantrips and most of your invocations.

At level 11: 20 CHA

At level 17: All your stats are at their best, 16 CON, 16 DEX, 20 CHA, also war caster

At Level 20: Lucky.

This build is good because, as MjolnirBear puts it, "The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility". This build is so ridiculously versatile, there is no situation in which you will be sitting there thinking "man, this sucks. There isn't anything I can do".

PC#3:

Willowhelm

2021-04-07, 10:25 AM

I opened it to a party because I would not expect a single character with these limitations to be able to do it all. By all means just make a single character. Party of one!

If you would like to make a single fleshed out build and add notes as to what the other party members might bring (without a full breakdown) then that works for me too.

Literally the first response and I’m already moving the goalposts. Sorry Theodoxus!

Joe the Rat

2021-04-07, 10:56 AM

ragnorack1

2021-04-07, 10:58 AM

Bit tricky to do an in detail build as how many characters does it take to form a "full party" and at what level are you actually under taking this mission?

There is a duo that I would quite like to try, "Shank" an Oath of the Watchers Dexadin/Whispers Bard, that serves as a Spy for a Kingdom, and "Gank" a Totem barb/Battlemaster/Thief that is a former underworld Thug/Enforcer now in "Shank"s employ. "Shank" is the face and provides most of the DPS and magical utility as well as helping shore up "Ganks"s saves + initiative, while "Gank" is a non-magical grappler who provides control and opportunities for "Shank" to attack, plus some expertise in more physical fields.

Going to provide a basic level 20 build that I'll try and flesh out later along with a rough idea of how to develop them as you level, though that is substantially easier with "Gank" than "Shank".

Shank (8 Oath of watchers/12 Whispers Bard)

Half-Elf Starting stats 8/16(+1)/14(+1)/12/10/16(+2) (could take the loss of stats for mark of shadow elf for pass with out trace)

ASI/Feats: +2 Dex, +2 Dex, Elven accuracy (+1 Cha), Actor(+1 Cha), +2 Cha

Spells of note: Disguise self, Healing word, Silence, Cloud of Daggers, Enlarge, zone of truth, suggestion, Mage armour (magical secrets), Shadow Blade (magical secrets), Dimension door, seeming

Expertise: Stealth, Persuasion, Deception, Investigation
Fighting style: Duelling

Mantle of whispers + Actor + High Cha and expertise should make you pretty good at bluffing your way through the check point (if you manage to pick a suitable mark off outside, also depends on how DM rules on Mantle of whispers and detect magic, if not suitable it could still be useful once inside). High dex gives you some AC but worth trying to obtain a scrap of leather once inside for mage armour), Shadow blade can give you a weapon but if you obtain a suitable one once you have passed the check point it may be worth ditching shadow blade so you can concentrate on other spells. Silence is useful for silent take downs or dealing with casters, enlarge lets Gank grapples larger targets while Cloud of Daggers is just plain nasty if this mission goes loud and you need to obliterate a tough target.
Smite and psychic blade helps your DPS while Aura of protection and sentinel shore up both characters saves and initiative.
Dimension door is a handy escape route for both characters if the heat gets too much.

Gank (5 Bear totem Barb/ 4 Battle master/ 11 thief)

Variant Human- Feat tavern brawler Starting stats 16(+1)/14(+1)/16(+1)/8/12/8

ASI/Feats: +2 Str, +2 Str, Resilient Wis, +2 Con,+2 Con
(tempted to drop some of the Con for healer feat but not guaranteed to find a healers kits so probably not a good move for this specific scenario, martial adept is also tempting but I think the HP and AC is more valuable.

Expertise: Stealth, Perception, Thieves tools, Athletics
Fighting style: Superior technique
Manoeuvres: Commanding strike, Riposte, Disarming Strike, Silver tongue (last one is your pick really)

A grappler build, so requires some ruling from your DM, basic idea in combat is to make either an unarmed or improvised weapon attack (broken bottle as a dagger?) to get the bonus action grapple, then jump 10 feet up (5 Str+2 Dex+3 base jump) to trigger fall damage and prone the enemy giving Shank and Gank advantage and the foe disadvantage on attacks). This can then be followed up with a second attack which can now sneak attack possibly with disarming strike thrown in.
The issue that may arise are that you DM may rule that the enemy doesn't take the damage unless you drop them or that you take the damage too resulting in you being proned, as far as I am aware there is no official ruling on this but at my table and others I have played at we rule if your legs are strong enough to make the jump they can take the landing.
In subsequent turns you can spend superiority die to either sacrifice your non-sneak attack into an extra opportunity for Shank to smite or on riposte for a reaction sneak attack.
Worth trying to pick up items that would you could cobble a disguise kit out of if your DM allows this, if not you will be relying on Gank for Seeming if you need to change you appearance.

Not sure what would be ideal to add to flesh out the party, maybe a Moon druid for wild shaping into inconspicuous animals such as a spider for infiltration and to offer different spells to the party including pass with out trace, possibly with a level of monk for some unarmoured AC if not able to wildshape and make them a mark of passage human so they can also dimension door to escape.

ragnorack1

2021-04-07, 11:10 AM

Alternatively a party of several Way of Mercy monks + a Way of Shadow for access to pass with out trace and silence. They can all take a level in rogue and perhaps the expertise feat (maybe even prodigy too) to shore up any skills needed. Can be completely unarmed/unarmoured, will take along time to take anything down but with healing strikes can Yo-Yo heal as required to outlast the enemy; will definitely need Silence from the way of shadow monk to keep the noise down, might be worth them all grabbing sentinel to stop the foe running away. Will be interesting at level 19 (18 monk) when they can all turn invisible for a minute (plus resistances) can cover alot of ground in 60 seconds with 60 feet movement and the possibility of triple dashingif they decide to commit that much Ki to it.

ragnorack1

2021-04-07, 11:11 AM

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-07, 11:14 AM

For the mission you define, you have a "too high" character level.
Suggestion: max out at level 12 for a kingdom level mission (If we look at a tiers of play concept from the PHB)
Otherwise, a great challenge concept. *Many thumbs Up* :smallsmile:

You are an adventuring party but you look entirely ordinary.

The fluff:

When the fame and glory go to the others, you are given the more delicate, covert missions. You can travel behind enemy lines as refugees, enter a prison as prisoners, be employed as servants at the kings castle, as farm hands, day labourers or any number of other mundane “commoner” situations. But when the time comes, you are fully ready for whatever the world throws at you.

Behind enemy lines you perform your sabotage, steal the plans, ambush the troops.. then disappear into the nameless masses.

As prisoners you wait for your moment and then break free, instantly at full strength, overpowering the guards and breaking out the target.

As servants you are close at hand, ignored by the assassins intent on killing the king. His ostentatious guards take the fall but you spring into action to save him.

Peace talks are about to happen between your kingdom and another. The prince requires protection. The talks will occur in a neutral location and the diplomats will be escorted there by a small group of scribes and advisors. You take the role of the scribes but the talks fail and you must thwart the ambush and escort the prince back safely.

You sit in the tavern drinking until closing time without anyone raising an eye. As the owner comes to kick you out and shut the door you incapacitate him and move on through the cellar to take care of the cult that has been working out of the tunnels below. You leave immediately after with nobody in town any the wiser, leaving no trace other than the confused owner who wakes up in the empty tavern.

You need to deal with bandits in the area. They don’t seem interested in wealth - they are kidnapping people. Nobody has been able to track them down and they only attack “safe” targets. Travelling down the high road you make ideal bait.

The King’s famous adventurers went on a high profile quest recently. The king believes they are in trouble but the people can’t see them fail. For the good of the kingdom you need to go and get them out of whatever they’ve gotten themselves into but for the sake of everyone’s reputation you can’t been seen to be helping them.

The aim:

A full party that can deal with everything a campaign might normally throw at them.

Rules:

Any source books. Tasha’s custom lineage etc is fair game.

Multiclassing and feat optional rules in play

The civilisation is majority humans. Other PHB races (and variants thereof) are allowed except Tieflings - they will stand out immediately.

You will have to pass through some form of checkpoint under close scrutiny: eg pat-down, belongings searched, detect magic etc. (Your magical TSA equivalent). Is is assumed you cannot bypass this checkpoint by mundane or magical means. (i.e The area is covered by forbiddance, and you are provided with papers at the checkpoint to certify you have passed through)

After the checkpoint there will be an indeterminate amount of time before the brown stuff hits the fan. You will still be observed during this time but not as intensively.

You will need to act immediately.

Hopefully the examples above give some guidance of the general flavour I’m looking for. If you would like additional clarification of any restrictions please ask and I will update this post.

Suggested format:

Level 20 level split:

Race:

Stats: Str x Dex x Con x Int x Wis x Cha x

Background:

Starting level:

Any guidance or commentary you want

At 5th level:

Any guidance or commentary you want

At 11th level:

Any guidance or commentary you want
{I suggest this change to your challenge(Korvin)}
12th level: Final Build.

Nidgit

2021-04-07, 11:36 AM

Without going too specific in builds, I'd have the party be something like:

Mercy or Shadow Monk
Soulknife or Arcane Trickster Rogue
Hexblade Bladelock or Genie Tomelock with Mask of Many Faces either way
Divine Soul Sorcerer

With the option to sub in Basically Any Druid depending on the exact picks. The idea here being that this party won't bother carrying a single weapon on them outside of the Arcane Trickster. Divine Soul Sorcerer is obviously picking up Subtle Spell immediately. Hexblade is there to tank if needed but it's honestly probably not as Monk and Rogue can typically tank as needed.

Lavaeolus

2021-04-07, 11:38 AM

So, some early thoughts. To my mind, if these characters are acting as prisoners they need to either be able to function without equipment, or be able to smuggle equipment in (whether through hiding it or retrieving it magically). In terms of walking around the city, I feel like light-armour can probably be hidden under a coat or even worn openly, while only some weapons are practical to hide in an outfit.

Working without equipment: Monks are good for this, of course, and a Beast Barb or a Barbarian who grabs Unarmed Fighting somehow can work in most scenarios. Just watch out for nonmagical resistance in the case of the latter. Some races have natural armor and weapons, but will draw attention to themselves compared to a human. Casters should watch out for components, focuses and maybe spellbooks (for Wizards), but can probably work around it through magic, so long as their ability to cast isn't actively nullified past the checkpoint. I feel I should take note of Wild Shape for both offensive and utility purposes; spiders get everywhere.

Smuggling in equipment: Doing this traditionally probably falls under Sleight of Hand; daggers and other concealable weapons are the most reasonable. Depending on the nature of where you're trying to infiltrate, it might be possible to, e.g. pretend a staff is a walking stick. Alternatively, Pact of the Blade and Soulknife's Psychic Blades are both ways to get weapons without carrying them in.

To my mind, combat can be pretty noisy. For example, in one of the given situations being able to subdue the tavern-keeper silently (e.g. through a Sleep spell) or being able to block out noise (e.g. the Silence spell) would come in handy. Ways to guarantee getting people alone would also be grand. When you can't, stopping people from fleeing and alerting the place could be a good move.

Do you have a set number of people in mind when you say "full party"? Hard to take on a campaign with two people, but if ever serving as bait it might make sense to split up (to make them look an easier target); if so, everyone else would need to be able to hide and follow the primary bait effectively.

Unoriginal

2021-04-07, 04:06 PM

Work in Progress:

#1: The Handy Man

Level 20 level split: Barbarian Path of the Beast 20

Race: Human (Variant)

Stats: Str 24 Dex 14 Con 24 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8

Background: Faceless

Starting level:

Starting Stats: Str 16 (15+1) Dex 14 Con 14 (13+1) Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8

Variant Human feat: Prodigy (Expertise in Athletics)

4th level ASI in CON (for CON 16)

8th level ASI in STR (for STR 18)

12th level ASI in CON (for CON 18)

16th level ASI in STR (for STR 20)

19th level ASI in CON (for CON 20)

At 20th level and final thoughts:

Primal Champion means STR and CON become 24

Final AC: 19

Final HPs: 285 ((12+(19*7))+20*7)

Final to hit mod: +13

Final mod to STR (Athletics) check: +19

#2:The Dread Conqueror

Level 20 level split: Paladin, Oath of Conquest 12/Monk, Way of the Long Death 8

Race: Human

Stats: Str 13 (12+1) Dex 16 (15+1) Con 9 (8+1) Int 9 (8+1) Wis 16 ( Cha 14

Background: Soldier

Starting level: Paladin, Oath of Conquest

th level:

At 11th level:

At 17th level:

At 20th level and final thoughts:

#3: The Spying Air

Level 20 level split: Monk, Way of the Four Elements 20

Race: Human (Variant)

Stats: Str 9 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 20 Cha 20

Background: Spy

Starting level:

Starting stats: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 16 (15+1) Cha 16 (15+1)

Variant human feat: Magic Initiate: Druid, Shillelagh

4th level ASI in feat: Telepathic (for WIS 17)

8th level ASI in feat: Telekinetic (for WIS 18)

12th level ASI in WIS (for WIS 20)

16th level ASI in CHA (for CHA 18)

19th level ASI in CHA (for CHA 20)

At 20th level and final thoughts:

Willowhelm

2021-04-07, 06:52 PM

Give me a Wizard with Calligraphy and Forgery proficiency, and a Genie Warlock, and you can be pretty free with a lot of the elements.

Genie Warlock: Your vessel is a ring, Worn by the Wizard or one other.
Wizard: Nystul's Aura to make the ring appear nonmagical, Fabricate to provide forgeries of documentation as needed for other party members once past the checkpoint. At this point you should be able to use magic to disguise outstanding aspects.

You could probably drop the forged documentation and have everyone wander through ungeared, with all exceptional gear stowed within the genieverse. One less complication.

The genie warlock does get a place to stash equipment early but you're still under observation so getting into their vessel, getting geared up, and back out without drawing attention is still tricky. If you look at the rules this is what i was trying to say by being ready "instantly". Similarly in all the fluff examples you can see there isn't really an option to go into the vessel, get everything equipped, then come back out again. If nobody spots you disappearing and reappearing loaded up with gear... then you still have to conceal the gear when it is on you. Your vessel might be the empty wine bottle on the side table while you're serving dinner but when the assassins strike... are you going to ask them to hold on while you just nip in and get your stuff? And you better hope it doesn't happen between the time you put the stuff in and your next long rest...?

I'm not saying it isn't a big part of a possible solution but it doesn't take care of everything!

Nystul's is only available at level 5 (i think?) so you also need to get to level 5 to start using it. (Although i am not actually sure that the vessel is technically a magic item and so might not even require it). It does help with concealing, say, an artificer-made bag of holding but you still have to explain this bag at the checkpoint... it behaves very strangely when they try and search it! I hope they don't turn it inside out...

Bit tricky to do an in detail build as how many characters does it take to form a "full party" and at what level are you actually under taking this mission?

I've said above that a full party can be 1 PC if you think that covers all your options. Can you face mobs, big hitters, social encounters, stealth, ranged, melee, skill checks, saving throws... all with one PC?

The challenge is for lvl 1-20, playing with the restrictions the whole time. Your tactics can change as you gain more options to overcome the challenges but you can't just jump to a high level where your build is online.

For the mission you define, you have a "too high" character level.
Suggestion: max out at level 12 for a kingdom level mission (If we look at a tiers of play concept from the PHB)
Otherwise, a great challenge concept. *Many thumbs Up* :smallsmile:

That's a limitation of my imagination rather than the challenge i think? Certainly many of the difficulties will be circumvented by high level but you'll still need to make choices as to how you're getting around them. Please feel free to suggest a tier-suitable challenge. Perhaps the "king's famous adventurers" are lvl 20 party... you've got to find out what happened to them, succeed where they failed, and get out... without making them look bad. Who knows what they're actually facing?

So, some early thoughts. To my mind, if these characters are acting as prisoners they need to either be able to function without equipment, or be able to smuggle equipment in (whether through hiding it or retrieving it magically). In terms of walking around the city, I feel like light-armour can probably be hidden under a coat or even worn openly, while only some weapons are practical to hide in an outfit.

<Snip>

Do you have a set number of people in mind when you say "full party"? Hard to take on a campaign with two people, but if ever serving as bait it might make sense to split up (to make them look an easier target); if so, everyone else would need to be able to hide and follow the primary bait effectively.

I think that any armor worth the name is going to be obvious. Especially in the fluff scenarios given. You may find a way to smuggle it in, and un-stash it, don it, and conceal it (all without being observed) and i look forward to hearing how! I believe there is fast-doff armor, and mithril can be worn under clothes, and molten bronze skin but no fast-don AFAIK. (Of course, there's always mage armor)

No set number for a full party. If you could run an official adventure without scaling it up down (so assuming encounters "balanced" for a party of 4) then you're good. It is unusual to have a build that can do that though, and i didn't want every build to only cover one of the pillars, or one style of combat.

I'll try and update the OP with these clarifications when i have a moment.

Joe the Rat

2021-04-08, 11:15 AM

The genie warlock does get a place to stash equipment early but you're still under observation so getting into their vessel, getting geared up, and back out without drawing attention is still tricky. If you look at the rules this is what i was trying to say by being ready "instantly". Similarly in all the fluff examples you can see there isn't really an option to go into the vessel, get everything equipped, then come back out again. If nobody spots you disappearing and reappearing loaded up with gear... then you still have to conceal the gear when it is on you. Your vessel might be the empty wine bottle on the side table while you're serving dinner but when the assassins strike... are you going to ask them to hold on while you just nip in and get your stuff? And you better hope it doesn't happen between the time you put the stuff in and your next long rest...?

I'm not saying it isn't a big part of a possible solution but it doesn't take care of everything!

Nystul's is only available at level 5 (i think?) so you also need to get to level 5 to start using it. (Although i am not actually sure that the vessel is technically a magic item and so might not even require it). It does help with concealing, say, an artificer-made bag of holding but you still have to explain this bag at the checkpoint... it behaves very strangely when they try and search it! I hope they don't turn it inside out...
The downside of level 20 builds - crazy big options. For a genelock, you (and whomever is gear-focused) is either long resting, or hiding. The party literally pops out of one guy's ring at a moment's notice. (and never mind the shenanigans with polymorph and flesh to stone). Hell, from 12 on, two genelocks give you 24-hour people pocket space. You just need room and 12 seconds to swap however many standby gearhogs.

In the shorter term, the genie's vessel is a smuggling tool to get all sorts of stuff past the heavy checkpoint. Pre-10, I'd recommend everything the party needs can be stowed into a single sack so it can be got and delivered in a brief period. From there it is just a matter of what you can conceal by the "observed but not scrutinized" standard. It only takes a narrow window of time to pop in and out with the essentials. You haven't specified what observations are being conducted - are they waiving magic detection, hard searches, are you being point monitored or do you have an escort, etc. Another note is that on regular checks, unless you are very particular, someone being missing is going to be harder to spot than somebody extra, particularly if you are presenting as unexceptional.

I'd dismissed the other subspace pockets as a smuggling mode, since searching bags is the most basic thing that will be done at a checkpoint, and explaining a six foot diameter black silk handkerchief is going to be difficult. (Though you can invert the bag and use it as a regular bag at checkpoint, then load up later).

Theodoxus

2021-04-08, 01:50 PM

20th level Wizard.

"I cast Wish: 'I wish the entire retinue of the King's men [give full names] being held captive in/at [wherever] immediately appear hale and whole before me.'" I'd be ok with the chance to never cast Wish again.

Alternatively, 20th level Cleric.

"I use Divine Intervention". - same parameters as the wish. A divine being might have a better chance of breaking through whatever barriers might be holding the prisoners at bay.

It's for this reason that I side with Korvin, that the challenge should be capped at 12 or so. Of course, given enough Clerics, using DI, even at only 12% chance of success at level 12, you'll get through... I guess the question then becomes, does Willowhelm allow the use of DI to rescue the men?

Willowhelm

2021-04-08, 02:31 PM

The downside of level 20 builds - crazy big options.

20th level Wizard.

"I cast Wish: 'I wish the entire retinue of the King's men [give full names] being held captive in/at [wherever] immediately appear hale and whole before me.'" I'd be ok with the chance to never cast Wish again.

Alternatively, 20th level Cleric.

"I use Divine Intervention". - same parameters as the wish. A divine being might have a better chance of breaking through whatever barriers might be holding the prisoners at bay.

It's for this reason that I side with Korvin, that the challenge should be capped at 12 or so. Of course, given enough Clerics, using DI, even at only 12% chance of success at level 12, you'll get through... I guess the question then becomes, does Willowhelm allow the use of DI to rescue the men?

I've clarified in other responses and I'm about to edit the OP but the idea is that this is a party that works from level 1. You don't just jump to level 20. At that point the restrictions can be trivial to circumvent and the only question is what method you use. Getting from level 1 and using the party synergistically all the way to 20 is the challenge.

I've also clarified this is not a one-and-done situation. This is how you behave for your entire adventuring career. If you use wish to solve the problem with a "risky" wish every time... you're going to lose wish and then still have more challenges.

I don't think you believe that 20th level characters cannot be challenged. So, given that, how do you meet the challenges that other 20th level characters face while also fulfilling the challenge requirements?

Lastly - Divine Intervention and Wish are somewhat DM dependent - Eg The DM might rule that asking for the men to appear before you satisfied by you appearing before them. I don't want this to be a discussion of what is and isn't "fair" with wish and what is and isn't within the bounds of divine intervention but Wish is not just a "i win" button for the game in general, nor for this challenge in particular.

GeneralVryth

2021-04-08, 02:57 PM

I also think this makes more sense as a lower level challenge. It also helps that lower level builds are more likely to see actual play. I have always been a believer that the hints of the build should be appearing at levels 3 or 4, the base build coming fully online between 6 and 8. And the advanced pieces slot into place between 12 and 16. Anything after that should just be gravy.

As to the question at hand I am surprised no one has suggested just a party full of Monks. They are the class you can drop in the middle of nowhere with nothing more than their birthday suit and expect to be just fine. Sorcerer's would be the next best option as they only depend on their arcane focus (which personally I think they should have an Eschew Materials ability at first level and not need even that but I digress), so just get the smallest or most concealable version of that you can. I would probably do both actually. The smallest crystals that can work, so you can hide them and a couple of "walking sticks" for day to day usage.

With the above in mind I would probably look at a 4 person party.
Way of the Sun Soul Monk (ideally having a feat to spare for Blind Fighting Style so probably Human)
Way of the Shadow Monk (ideally having a feat to spare for Blind Fighting Style so probably Human, also would have background support for thieves tools)
Shadow Magic Sorcerer (probably your face)
Divine Soul Sorcerer

Ideally everyone has the stealth skill, which when combined with things like pass without a trace, and the monks sheer ability to move around, should be able to get you wherever you need to go undetected. The Sorcerers should both have twin, so they can multiplex out any buffs, doing either 2 powerful buffs each on both monks, or one powerful one (like flight) on all 4 members. Subtle is the other obvious metamagic, useful for various enchantments in support of the face or just being discreet. The Sorcerers have ranged fire support along with the Sun Soul for any battle that can't be handled through melee. For the battles that can be melee, 2 monks with Blind Fighting in Darkness become quite the opponents, especially if buffed by the sorcerers. And the Divine Soul can hopefully cover any healing like magic the party needs. Which should cover about everything. There are lots of ways to distribute the various skills once everyone has stealth, you will only be weaker with Int skills and Athletics which shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Finally, with the above in mind, the basic concept can be fully online at level 3 (2 variant human monks already have the Blind Fighting Style and access to Pass Without a Trace, and 2 sources of Darkness before spells, the Sorcerers both have Twin and Subtle and some spells), and just gets stronger from there.

P.S. If you do allow the level 1 Eschew Materials for Sorcerers, at level 3 (though preferably level 5 or 6 for Fly instead of Feather Fall) you could literally air drop them in with NOTHING, and expect to see them again in a few weeks fully decked out in bling, mission complete, and ready for the next assignment :)

Willowhelm

2021-04-08, 03:01 PM

GeneralVryth

2021-04-08, 04:41 PM

This sounds great! Can you flesh it out to a full build with the stats, skills and other choices you'd make? A lot of the challenge only really appears when you start making a real build. If you're monk-heavy and relying on unarmored defence for AC and unarmed strikes then even with your starting feat from variant human you're going to be missing out on some abillity scores, saves, skills etc.

Here is a beginning outline (I may try and flesh it out more later, need to actually get some work done today lol):

Way of the Sun Soul Monk:
Variant Human Starting Stats: 12 STR, 15 (+1) DEX, 13 CON, 8 INT, 15 (+1) WIS, 8 CHA

Background: Outlander
Skills: Perception (V. Human), Athletics (BG), Survival (BG), Stealth, Acrobatics
Tools: Musical Instrument
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (V. Human), +2 Dex (4th), +2 Dex (8th), +2 Wis (12th), +2 Wis (16th), ... (19th)

Way of the Shadow Monk:
Variant Human Starting Stats: 8 STR, 15 (+1) DEX, 13 CON, 12 INT, 15 (+1) WIS, 8 CHA

Background: Spy
Skills: Perception (V. Human), Deception (BG), Stealth (BG), History, Insight
Tools: Thieves Tools
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (V. Human), +2 Dex (4th), +2 Dex (8th), +2 Wis (12th), +2 Wis (16th), ... (19th)

Shadow Magic Sorcerer:
Custom Lineage Starting Stats: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 12 WIS, 15 (+2) CHA

Background: Charlatan
Skills: Stealth (C. Lineage), Deception (BG), Sleight of Hand (BG), Persuasion, Intimidation
Tools: Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit
Feats: Telepathic (C. Lineage, Cha), +2 Cha??? (4th), ...
Metamagics: Subtle (3rd), Twinned (3rd), Quicken (10th), ... (10th), ...
Spells: ...

Divine Soul Sorcerer:
Custom Lineage Starting Stats: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 12 INT, 10 WIS, 14 (+2) CHA

Background: Hermit
Skills: Stealth (C. Lineage), Medicine (BG), Religion (BG), Arcana, Insight
Tools: Herbalism Kit
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (C. Lineage), ... (4th), ...
Metamagics: Subtle (3rd), Twinned (3rd), Quicken (10th), ... (10th), ...
Spells: ...

With the above everyone has Stealth for a min mod of +4 at level 1, and +15 at level 5 with Pass Without a Trace (no one is detecting you in that case). Your face is rocking a starting mod of +6 in all of Deception, Persuasion, and Intimidation. Everyone has 120 ft. Darkvision and can see in Darkness created by the Shadow Sorc, which means adv./dis. adv. on demand in any combat situation. You cover every skill besides Animal Handling, Investigation, Nature, and Performance. Perception and Insight are both double covered. The Shadow Sorc can silently coordinate actions with his telepathy. Both Sorcerers will have plenty of extra things they can do with feats that they could probably pick up the uncovered skills if you feel they were needed and potentially get some expertise on important skills as well. Or just other extra cool stuff. Spells are definitely something that will take longer to flesh out given the Sorcerer's limited choices, but you can assume at least one combat cantrip a piece, probably some minor illusions for additional discreet shenanigans, and some mix of attack, buff, enchantment, healing, and illusions spells. Fly and Haste are two major ones that would I would try and have at the top of my list for both. The Monks aren't going to be great tanks early on, but you should always be able to pick the fights you want and sneak by ones you don't, ambush tactics with the advantage control should make up for most of the weakness here.

I will see about fleshing out the outline further later, but you get the idea, most of it comes online at level 3 and just builds from there which I love. For levels 1 and 2 the skill coverage handles a lot. I did replace Blind Fighting with Devil's Sight as it gave the main thing I wanted plus 120 ft. darkvision, you just lose the less used interaction with invisible opponents which feels like a good trade.

P.S. I do know you could probably optimize things slightly better with custom backgrounds, that would likely be a next step a long with the spells, the basic backgrounds were useful for just quick building and limiting analysis paralysis.

Willowhelm

2021-04-08, 05:02 PM

With the above everyone has Stealth for a min mod of +4 at level 1, and +15 at level 5 with Pass Without a Trace (no one is detecting you in that case).

Again I like the general plan and I’m looking forward to when you flesh it out more. Just to be clear though - you won’t be sneaking past the checkpoint. You will be getting a pat down and baggage check no matter how sneaky you are!

(Unless you are going to be “unremarkable” by, for example, spider climbing your way across the ceiling while invisible as your warlock distracts the guard with their charm and then stay invisible for an indeterminate amount of time... but that’s a lot compared to just walking through without equipment.)

x3n0n

2021-04-08, 09:12 PM

Are Lizardfolk ok or no? They seem pretty close to Dragonborn, visually speaking.

Willowhelm

2021-04-08, 09:26 PM

Are Lizardfolk ok or no? They seem pretty close to Dragonborn.

If you're an inscrutable lizardfolk with a "fanged maw" you are probably going to be remembered so I think they're probably too unusual for this party. I'd really prefer that the whole crew passes for human but i left it more open because i think by default the PHB races are mostly unremarkable in FR.

Even a wizard shouldn't be all that uncommon in the employ of the crown.

This is true... but they're not an unremarkable commoner at that point.

PC#1: vHuman Order of Scribes Wizard

PC#2: Celestial Warlock

Things to ponder/work on:

Your first issue with the scribes wizard is probably going to be your spellbook. You'd be prepping spells before the start of the adventure/mission and then stuck without a book until it was all over. I think you can work around that in some ways (you wont be able to prep new spells if you're stuck in a dungeon) but some scribes wizard abilities assume you have the book on you. (Until the point where you can store it elsewhere in a demi plane or whatever...). If they're planning to be back-line with low AC then you'll need to over that weakness with another party member. You'll also start to have a challenge with spell components with GP costs.

The Celestial warlock has some steps taken to give it a good AC - namely the DEX and the feat. These are based around wearing medium armor. You'll need to either adjust for a lack of such armor or come up with a way to get it past the checkpoint and equipped without being noticed.

Bit tricky to do an in detail build as how many characters does it take to form a "full party" and at what level are you actually under taking this mission?

There is a duo that I would quite like to try, "Shank" an Oath of the Watchers Dexadin/Whispers Bard, that serves as a Spy for a Kingdom, and "Gank" a Totem barb/Battlemaster/Thief that is a former underworld Thug/Enforcer now in "Shank"s employ. "Shank" is the face and provides most of the DPS and magical utility as well as helping shore up "Ganks"s saves + initiative, while "Gank" is a non-magical grappler who provides control and opportunities for "Shank" to attack, plus some expertise in more physical fields.

I like this pair and it definitely fits the vibe. What's Gank's AC approach? unarmored defense?

It seems like this pair are well tailored to BBEG but might have some issues with mobs at lower levels. How would they deal with a bunch of goblins or kobolds or such? I'm not sure what the level up path is with the multi-classing though so maybe the bard control spells come online earlier than i think. Similarly the magical secrets - what level are you picking up mage armor exactly?

worth trying to obtain a scrap of leather once inside for mage armour

I think this is an easy item to get past the checkpoint. Even if they make you take off your belt and shoes to go through a metal detector you can just rip the tongue off your shoe on the other side. That's if the DM even rules it as to be a scrap and not just a leather item. Even easier - leather laces are a thing and easy to break a scrap off the end as needed. No need to ruin a perfectly decent pair of shoes.

x3n0n

2021-04-08, 09:48 PM

If you're an inscrutable lizardfolk with a "fanged maw" you are probably going to be remembered so I think they're probably too unusual for this party. I'd really prefer that the whole crew passes for human but i left it more open because i think by default the PHB races are mostly unremarkable in FR.

Makes sense. I think there's PHB text that denotes Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling as "common", and the rest as uncommon. I suspect that a Half-Elf would also be unremarkable.

Asking the DM: can you feed a Goodberry to a 0 HP ally to wake them? (MI: Druid for Guidance, something, Goodberry seems like a useful hedge at low levels, especially if the answer is yes.)
2nd cantrip options: Produce Flame, Magic Stone, Shape Water

First pass sketch:

Half-Elf Celestial Warlock (Pact of the Chain, Imp)
8/13+1/13+1/12/12/15+2
Decept, Persua, Stealth, Acro, Arcana, Investig
E.Blast (Magic Stone until we can afford Ag.Blast), Mind Sliver (, Chill Touch)
Armor of Shadows, Devil's Sight, Ag.Blast (, Mask of Many Faces, Repelling Blast)
ASIs: Actor (or Elven Accuracy/Cha), Inspiring Leader, Cha, Res:Con, ?

V.Human(MI:wiz/sorc, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Mage Armor) (Moon) Druid
8/13+1/13/12/15+1/12
Athl, Stealth, Percep, Insight, Nature
Guidance, Magic Stone
ASIs: Res:Con, Wis, Wis, ?, ?

V.Human(Alert) (Shadow) Monk
8/15+1/14/8/15+1/10
Acro, Stealth, Percep, Decept, xxx; Thieves' Tools, Forgery Kit
ASIs: alternate Dex/Wis, ?

V.Human(Fighting Initiate: Unarmed, to retrain as Blind Fighting at 4th level) (Beast) Barbarian
15+1/14/15+1/8/10/8
Athl, Stealth, Percept, yyy, Decept
ASIs: alternate Con/Str, ?

Everybody gets some good way to deal with Darkness by the end of Tier 1: Devil's Sight, Blindsight Wild Shapes, Alert, Blind Fighting
Wild Shape + Mage Armor
Grapple/Spike Growth shenanigans
Magic Stone means everybody has ranged attacks
Everybody's primary attack counts as magical at 6th
2 healers + Goodberry
2 Pass Without Trace
Guidance and Enhance Ability

I'd like to fit Deception on the Druid and Perception on the Warlock, but am running low on skill slots.
If I weren't short on skill slots, I'd really like to get Inspiring Leader on the Warlock via v.human
Mistletoe in boot seems fine to smuggle for Goodberry?
A Divine Soul could slot in for the Warlock and have Mage Armor online at 1st level for both casters, saving a feat slot for the Druid, at the loss of all the warlock stuff.

Willowhelm

2021-04-08, 10:11 PM

Asking the DM: can you feed a Goodberry to a 0 HP ally to wake them? (MI: Druid for Guidance, something, Goodberry seems like a useful hedge at low levels, especially if the answer is yes.)

I allow it. I wouldn't judge another DM if they don't or if they ask for CON checks after multiple berries.

Hexblade is there to tank if needed but it's honestly probably not as Monk and Rogue can typically tank as needed.

Can you elaborate on how they'd be tanking? Especially at early levels. I think the best their AC would be is 16 for the an unarmored monk and 14 for a rogue with no armor, 17 if they somehow get some studded leather past the checkpoint and find a way to wear it.

Hexblade is similarly going to have trouble benefiting from their medium armor proficiency but could pick up mage armor and shield. Then the question is how much are you going to lean on their DEX vs their CHA and where are you putting those ASIs? High DEX at level 1 gives you better AC but hurts your face position. 16s in both and you start losing out elsewhere... what are you going to dump?

Tanarii

2021-04-08, 10:43 PM

I think the biggest problem here is going to be weapons/armor, spellcasting foci, and for a Wizard / tome lock their necessary book.

The weapon/armor restrictions makes me think Monks, Tavern Brawler Grappling Barbarians, and either Dex-based EKs (summoning their weapons) or Bladelocks would be best for melee combat. Casters with lots of no-M component spells would probably handle ranged best. With careful attention paid to easily obtainable M components that might be used when available.

For a party, I'd be inclined to go with a shadow monk, a Moon Druid (built in animal disguises!), a bladelock (with mask of many faces!), and a Subtle Sorc (lots of cantrips!).

Bladelock I'd probably build high Dex with passable Cha as a melee/stealth expert, and Sorc high Cha and Con secondary as the face. Moon Druid would want some Dex and Stealth skill, but also Int and Sage background as the knowing stuff guy of the party, since Dex isn't needed for fighting.

If fighting in animal form is a problem for the Moon Druid, maybe a Dex / Wis Knowledge Cleric (expertise in two knowledge skills). Trickery Cleric would seem thematic, but they're designed to be a more standard (if defensively oriented) armor/weapon cleric.

GeneralVryth

2021-04-09, 04:51 AM

Again I like the general plan and I’m looking forward to when you flesh it out more. Just to be clear though - you won’t be sneaking past the checkpoint. You will be getting a pat down and baggage check no matter how sneaky you are!

(Unless you are going to be “unremarkable” by, for example, spider climbing your way across the ceiling while invisible as your warlock distracts the guard with their charm and then stay invisible for an indeterminate amount of time... but that’s a lot compared to just walking through without equipment.)

The idea is they can sneak when they need to go places they aren't supposed to be (and they have lots of ways to do that). For the more day to day stuff, they literally shouldn't be much more than commoners or travelers with "walking sticks" (and even the sticks are pretty optional especially if you allowed an Eschew Materials feature for Sorcerers). The Shadow Sorcerer face would do most of the talking, they would have +6 to Deception/Persuasion/Intimidation at 1st level, going up to +8 at 8th level. Which should get them into most places without issue, and for everything else there is always a subtle Friends/Charm Person/Suggestion (and again this is when sneaking into a place with +5 to +15 stealth, and 120 ft. darkvision to see things coming isn't good enough).

In combat both Monks start with 16 AC, which becomes 18 AC by level 8. Either Shield of Faith or Haste twinned makes that a respectable AC 20, especially if you mix in Darkness for disadvantage on enemy attacks. On offense, the party isn't going to blow out the heavy DPR builds, but they are going to hit very consistently with darkness providing advantage on attacks, especially if Bless is in play. And of course if things are extra nasty that is when you start throwing Fireballs like its no tomorrow.

Overall the idea is the party should need very minimal equipment, and they have lots of ways to approach a problem, whether it's combat or getting into/out of an area, or sweet talking someone.

Way of the Sun Soul Monk:
Variant Human Starting Stats: 12 STR, 15 (+1) DEX, 13 CON, 8 INT, 15 (+1) WIS, 8 CHA

Background: Custom - False Identity
Skills: Perception (V. Human), Athletics (BG), Survival (BG), Stealth, Acrobatics
Tools: Herbalism Kit
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (V. Human), +2 Dex (4th), +2 Dex (8th), +2 Wis (12th), +2 Wis (16th), ... (19th)

Way of the Shadow Monk:
Variant Human Starting Stats: 8 STR, 15 (+1) DEX, 13 CON, 12 INT, 15 (+1) WIS, 8 CHA

Background: Custom - False Identity
Skills: Perception (V. Human), Sleight of Hand (BG), Stealth (BG), History, Insight
Tools: Thieves Tools
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (V. Human), +2 Dex (4th), +2 Dex (8th), +2 Wis (12th), +2 Wis (16th), ... (19th)

Shadow Magic Sorcerer:
Custom Lineage Starting Stats: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 12 WIS, 15 (+2) CHA

Background: Custom - False Identity
Skills: Stealth (C. Lineage), Deception (BG), Insight (BG), Persuasion, Intimidation, Performance (Skill Expert, 8th)
Tools: Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit
Feats: Telepathic (C. Lineage, Cha), Fey Touched (Charm Person, Cha) (4th), Skill Expert (Deception, Cha) (8th), ... (Or Shadow Touched (Silent Image, Cha) in place of Skill Expert)
Spells Known: 4 besides Origin/Feat spells at level 3, 7 at level 6.
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Firebolt, Mage Hand, Friends, Mind Sliver (4th), Mending (10th)
1st: Charm Person (Fey Touched), Mage Armor, Shield -Possible: Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Feather Fall, Grease, Silent Image
2nd: Darkness (Origin), Detect Thoughts (Telepathic), Misty Step (Fey Touched), Alter Self, Suggestion -Possible: Web
3rd: Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern -Possible: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image

Divine Soul Sorcerer:
Custom Lineage Starting Stats: 8 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 12 INT, 10 WIS, 14 (+2) CHA

Background: Custom - False Identity
Skills: Stealth (C. Lineage), Investigation (BG), Religion (BG), Arcana, Medicine
Tools: Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit
Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (C. Lineage), Shadow Touched (Silent Image, Cha) (4th), Fey Touched (Detect Magic, Cha) (8th), ...
Spells Known: 4 besides Origin/Feat spells at level 3, 7 at level 6.
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Firebolt, Mage Hand, Message, Mind Sliver (4th), Prestidigitation (10th)
1st: Bless (Origin), Silent Image (Shadow Touched), Detect Magic (Fey Touched), Shield, Healing Word, Shield of Faith -Possible: Absorb Elements, Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Silent Image
2nd: Invisibility (Shadow Touched), Misty Step (Fey Touched), Spiritual Weapon -Possible: Suggestion, Web, Lesser Restoration, Silence
3rd: Fireball, Fly, Haste -Possible: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Sending, Spirit Guardians

P.S. Yes I know I only brought the spell lists to level 6, it's so painful for fill them out, and you get the idea. I will say the new Tasha's feats are really nice for filling out the small amount of Spells Known Sorcerers have. And while I didn't list it directly, there is something very interesting in the idea of 2 twinned Gaseous Form spells. The entire party can now fly, are relatively innocuous, and get anywhere air can get to. That is some power if you want to explore it. Just imagine, the 4 get locked in a cell, the guards come by and they are all gone, the door is completely unchanged, just there 1 minute and gone the next. Dimensions Door could do something similar at level 7+ and would probably replace Gaseous Form as a known spell (Just like Fly would probably replace Feather Fall if you got Feather Fall).

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-09, 08:49 AM

Rogue: Mastermind (any race)
Barbarian: vHuman, Resilient Dex feat (Starts 16 16 16 8 8 8)
Warlock: vHuman, Celestial, Pact of the Blade, Polearm Mastery feat.
(Se can put her weapon away until they need it starting at third level)
Monk: Sun Soul (any race)
Sorcerer: Divine Soul (If the lock takes a different patron) or (Preferred) Shadow Magic, vHuman. Alert Feat

A few points. Barbarian always pumps CON initially. (To boost AC)

Warlock: Take the Armor of Shadows and start with a 16 Dex so that AC is OK early on. Con will suffer slightly. Dump INT. Dump Wis. S 14 D 16 C 10 I 8 W 8 Ch 16, Armor of Agythys is a must early on.

Mastermind: whomever needs advantage on an attack, the mastermind provides it.
Monk: sneak and strike. Could do shadow also, but I find the sun soul flexibility between melee and ranged to be useful.
Sorcerer: Not Fettered with Books.

Lastly, background:
Criminal Background for Barbarian, not sure about the others at the moment, but I'd like to see "thematically"
a Noble (malcontent, etc),
one Sailor (since scruffy person from dockside is a standard trope),
one Charlatan (likely the Rogue),
one Local Hero.

Tanarii

2021-04-09, 08:54 AM

Rogue: Mastermind (any race)
Barbarian: vHuman, Resilient Dex feat (Starts 16 16 16 8 8 8)What are these two doing for weapons?

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-09, 09:29 AM

What are these two doing for weapons?
What ever they pick up/find, recover.
Barbarian can use improvised weapons, rogue needs to pick up daggers etc once the infiltration goes off.

Sleight of Hand: expertise (Maybe slip a dagger out of the TSA official's sheath as the finally clear security :smallbiggrin: )

The master mind can provide 'help' (Action) to one character and as a bonus action provide adv BA to another character. :smallwink: Each round. Two other's have advantage on attacks ...

The barb is also there to grapple/push/shove/climb/scout/ and I think ancestral guardians would be an excellent choice, or, Barbarian goes Beast (Tasha's)

Yes, we can go moon druid instead, but that's already been suggested in another post, so I tried to make a different fit.

Tanarii

2021-04-09, 09:58 AM

What ever they pick up/find, recover.
Barbarian can use improvised weapons, rogue needs to pick up daggers etc once the infiltration goes off. That doesn't meet the immediately ready for action clause, but it's definitely doable overall

Sleight of Hand: expertise (Maybe slip a dagger out of the TSA official's sheath as the finally clear security :smallbiggrin: )That sounds like a highly risky maneuver if the check-point is a regular occurrence. I'd assume the check-points passive perception and investigation skills to be at least a 14-15, to be good at their job.

The barb is also there to grapple/push/shove/climb/scout/ and I think ancestral guardians would be an excellent choice, or, Barbarian goes Beast (Tasha's)I was thinking tavern brawler for the same reasons.

Yes, we can go moon druid instead, but that's already been suggested in another post, so I tried to make a different fit.Moon Druid is definitely an awesome option ... provided been seen changing into an animal for fights doesn't cause more issues than it solves. If being seen fighting is an automatic problem if you leave any witnesses, then it's not such a big issue.

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-09, 10:11 AM

That doesn't meet the immediately ready for action clause, but it's definitely doable overall I think it means that the OP doesn't understand infiltration very well. :smallwink:

That sounds like a highly risky maneuver if the check-point is a regular occurrence. I'd assume the check-points passive perception and investigation skills to be at least a 14-15, to be good at their job. No guts, no glory. Team approach includes provide a visual distraction (all four other party members) as they try it with the aim of getting advantage on the attempt.

I was thinking tavern brawler for the same reasons. Yeah, that was my other feat idea. I went with dex to keep str up, but you know what, Taver Brawler is better. Barb gets boosts to dex saves at level two.

Willowhelm

2021-04-09, 11:11 AM

I think it means that the OP doesn't understand infiltration very well. :smallwink:
No guts, no glory. Team approach includes provide a visual distraction (all four other party members) as they try it with the aim of getting advantage on the attempt.
Yeah, that was my other feat idea. I went with dex to keep str up, but you know what, Taver Brawler is better. Barb gets boosts to dex saves at level two.

The time between the checkpoint and things kicking off is intended to afford an opportunity to try and prepare. You might find a suitable weapon. And pilfer it without notice. And conceal it on your person. But then in some of the examples I think that wouldn’t be possible (without tavern brawler for improvised weapons)

As for high risk high reward... that’s a style of play you can choose. I did say the checkpoint needs a reliable way through. Once you have a reliable talent and expertise you can probably lift the dagger from the checkpoint guard without being noticed no worries. Of course that is a trail of evidence that might lead to further scrutiny later... actions have consequences! ;)

Similarly if the entire team are causing a visual distraction it is going to make that checkpoint period pretty memorable. Likely to be remarked upon when questioned later. More consequences.

Tavern brawler does seem necessary if you want to use sneak attack with an improvised weapon. I don’t think improvised weapons can have finesse otherwise?

x3n0n

2021-04-09, 11:22 AM

Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight (V. Human)

Just a nit: the Monks can't take Eldritch Adept because they don't have a feature named Spellcasting or Pact Magic, but they can take Fighting Initiate: Blind Fighting (or Alert, which covers some but not all of the same ground).

I'm a big fan of that combo.

Tanarii

2021-04-09, 11:24 AM

Tavern brawler does seem necessary if you want to use sneak attack with an improvised weapon. I don’t think improvised weapons can have finesse otherwise?

The DM has the option to rule something sufficiently narrow and pointy as being a dagger, for all intents and purposes.

Willowhelm

2021-04-09, 11:29 AM

The DM has the option to rule something sufficiently narrow and pointy as being a dagger, for all intents and purposes.

Yes. But RAW it is still an improvised dagger without the tavern brawler I believe? It’s quite a large part of the feat because it can take you from 1d4(?) to whatever the similar weapon’s damage dice is.

GeneralVryth

2021-04-09, 11:49 AM

Just a nit: the Monks can't take Eldritch Adept because they don't have a feature named Spellcasting or Pact Magic, but they can take Fighting Initiate: Blind Fighting (or Alert, which covers some but not all of the same ground).

I'm a big fan of that combo.

You are completely right. What I get for throwing something together while working. But yeah for the Monks just do that replace.

Overall, the effectiveness should be quite high, also the symmetry I stumbled into amuses me (a shadow and light themed pair of monks, teamed with a shadow and light themed pair of sorcerers). I think as a group at level 8 using their high DPS setup (Haste on the monks and darkness in the combat zone, with an active Spiritual Weapon), they should be doing north of 80 DPR after taking accuracy into account. Before taking accuracy into account I know Monks would be 37 a piece (3 staff attacks plus an unarmed strike, conserving ki), the Sorcerers would be 11 each with Firebolt, with another 8.5 from the Spiritual Weapon. Added up that's ~105 DPR, and with +7 or +8 to hit, with advantage, you should be hitting north of 80% against most foes you would encounter at that level. Shows the power of consistency versus raw damage. Though it srtill would get destroyed by a group of Sharpshooters or GWMs, but these are guys with sticks they could more or less make out of anything, and shouldn't be questioned anywhere on :).

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-09, 12:02 PM

Tavern brawler does seem necessary if you want to use sneak attack with an improvised weapon.
Barbs don't sneak attack, Tanarii and I were discussing that feat over Res Dex, and I find he has the better idea, so I'll amend my suggested team soon. Have to do some RL stuff.

Nidgit

2021-04-09, 12:19 PM

Can you elaborate on how they'd be tanking? Especially at early levels. I think the best their AC would be is 16 for the an unarmored monk and 14 for a rogue with no armor, 17 if they somehow get some studded leather past the checkpoint and find a way to wear it.

Hexblade is similarly going to have trouble benefiting from their medium armor proficiency but could pick up mage armor and shield. Then the question is how much are you going to lean on their DEX vs their CHA and where are you putting those ASIs? High DEX at level 1 gives you better AC but hurts your face position. 16s in both and you start losing out elsewhere... what are you going to dump?

16 AC is plenty acceptable for a low level AC, especially when the Monk has Patient Defense to provide disadvantage on attacks. Sure it cuts into damage substantially but that's why they're not always committed to tanking. A Rogue has Uncanny Dodge to mitigate damage too and could conceivably pick up something like Defensive Duelist. An Arcane Trickster could also take Mage Armor or Shield as their unspecified spells.

A Hexblade with 14 Dex means with Mage Armor and Shield up that reaches 20 AC. Very much acceptable for when they can't procure a shield or better armor.

Bloodcloud

2021-04-09, 12:30 PM

Soulknife Rogue, Moon druid, Dex based tortle Eldritch knight, Lore bard. You got STR, DEX, WIS and CHA mains, bard can use a small flute that is very unlikely to get confiscated ever and have backup instruments hidden anywhere as anything. Nobody needs any more than light armor, and can probably live without. Everybody can grab stealth profiency, the bard can talk around obstacles with ease, plenty of healing to go around between the druid and bard, plenty of tankiness between the barb and druid, enough DPR with the rogue and eldritch knight, ranged and close combat abilities.

Willowhelm

2021-04-09, 12:37 PM

Barbs don't sneak attack, Tanarii and I were discussing that feat over Res Dex, and I find he has the better idea, so I'll amend my suggested team soon. Have to do some RL stuff.

I know. I was just combining the discussion of the tavern brawler feat with the discussion of obtaining weapons during/after the checkpoint.

Also...nitpick that I know you already know... barbs can sneak attack. Even with STR. You just gotta dip rogue (which also lets you pick up athletics expertise for your grappling).

KorvinStarmast

2021-04-09, 01:51 PM

I know. I was just combining the discussion of the tavern brawler feat with the discussion of obtaining weapons during/after the checkpoint.

Also...nitpick that I know you already know... barbs can sneak attack. Even with STR. You just gotta dip rogue (which also lets you pick up athletics expertise for your grappling).
In other words, Barb's can't sneak attack, but a Barb/Rogue MC can. :smallwink:

My proposed team will not multiclass for the first 5 levels.
Rogue: Mastermind (Half Elf)
Background: Charlatan

Barbarian: vHuman, Ancestral Guardian; Tavern Brawler feat (Starts 16 16 16 8 8 8)
Background: Criminal (Strong Silent Type, used as muscle in the old guild .....)

Warlock: vHuman, Celestial, Pact of the Blade, Polearm Mastery feat.
Background: Noble
(She can put her weapon away until they need it starting at third level, or lend it to the Barbarian in a pinch, for a minute at a time)

Monk: Sun Soul (Wood Elf or Half Elf)
Background: Local Hero

Sorcerer: Shadow Magic, vHuman. Alert Feat.
Background. Sailor
(If the Warlock picks something other than Celestial, swap this to Divine Soul)

A few points.
-Barbarian always pumps CON initially. (To boost AC). Can sometimes borrow the Halberd from the Warlock, situationally dependent. Can grapple and pin and beat on foes.

-Warlock: Take the Armor of Shadows and start with a 16 Dex so that AC is OK early on. Con will suffer slightly. Dump INT. Dump Wis. S 14 D 16 C 10 I 8 W 8 Ch 16, Armor of Agythys is a must early on.

-Mastermind: whomever needs advantage on an attack, the mastermind provides it.

-Monk: sneak and strike. (Could do shadow also, but I find the sun soul flexibility between melee and ranged to be useful).

Sorcerer: Not Fettered with Books. Doggie is handy, as it sight.

At level 6:
-Sorcerer stays Sorcerer: doggie
- Barbarian: may take the Ancestral Guardian class feature or MC 1 level of Rogue for sneak attack capability.

Warlock: Remain Lock at 6.

Rogue: Remains rogue until 7 at the least; Evasion shall not be delayed.

Monk: All Monk All The Time.

MasterMind: Master of Intrigue ought to be very useful or a lot of different attempts to get the party past things so that infiltration is aided.

Tanarii

2021-04-09, 02:06 PM

Yes. But RAW it is still an improvised dagger without the tavern brawler I believe? It’s quite a large part of the feat because it can take you from 1d4(?) to whatever the similar weapon’s damage dice is.
Nope. If a DM determines it resembles a weapon, it is treated as that weapon.

GeneralVryth

2021-04-09, 02:13 PM

@KorvinStarmast

I like the Pact of he Blade Warlock as a way to have a more normal weapon wielder. Why celestial instead of hexblade given the MADness? Is it just to keep the Sorcerer as a Shadow?

x3n0n

2021-04-09, 02:52 PM

I'm reasonably happy with this now.

V.Human(Inspiring Leader) Celestial Warlock (Pact of the Chain, Imp)
8/13+1/14/12/10/15+1
Criminal or Bounty Hunter
Decept, Persua, Stealth, Acro, Arcana, Investig
E.Blast (Magic Stone until we can afford Ag.Blast), Mind Sliver, Light, Sacred Flame (, Chill Touch)
Armor of Shadows, Devil's Sight, Ag.Blast (, Mask of Many Faces, Repelling Blast)
ASIs: Cha 18, Cha 20, Res:Con 15, wildcard, wildcard

The main ranged attacker, party face, secondary healer, investigator, and Arcana specialist.
Would like to fit Inspiring Leader at 1, but running low on skill slots, and can't afford the invocation for face skills. Edit: changed it up to do this, lost Acrobatics. :(
I'd also prefer Tome, but am not confident that we could get it in. The one-hour ritual works for longer-running missions, but not having a Pact for a significant fraction of missions sucks. Blade would be fine, but I don't want to be in melee anyway, and E.Blast/Ag.Blast is just fine for ranged attacking.
A Divine Soul Sorcerer could slot in here and have Mage Armor online at 1st level for both casters, saving a feat slot for the Druid, at the loss of all the warlock stuff. I think I value the E.Blast, Imp, short-rest recovery, and slot-less healing more, but could be argued either way.

V.Human(MI:Sorc for Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Mage Armor) (Moon) Druid
8/13+1/13/12/15+1/12
modified Hermit
Athl, Stealth, Percep, Insight, Religion
Guidance, Magic Stone
ASIs: Res:Con 14, Wis 18, Wis 20, wildcard, wildcard

Only tweaks to vanilla Moon Druid are the Mage Armor synergy (so high-Dex forms are better than those with lots of natural armor) and heavy obscuration in the party (so blindsight forms will be good).
Magic Stone can be handed out to the others for ranged attacking.
Responsible for Guidance and Enhance Ability.
Mistletoe (Goodberry) and a scrap of leather (Mage Armor) don't seem like a problem to smuggle.

V.Human(Alert) (Shadow) Monk
modified Criminal or Bounty Hunter
8/15+1/14/8/15+1/10
Acro, Stealth, Percep, Decept, History; Thieves' Tools, Forgery Kit
ASIs: Dex 18, Wis 18, Dex 20, Wis 20, wildcard

The other half of the Rogue stand-in.
Alert means he will frequently win initiative and can Darkness defensively, and Alert/Darkness forces disadvantage instead of straight rolls on attacks.
Primary source of Darkness (obscuration combos), the Darkvision spell when useful, and Pass Without Trace
He'd like to secure a quarterstaff and/or a sling post-checkpoint, but is also ok without.

V.Human(Fighting Initiate: Unarmed, to retrain as Blind Fighting at 4th level) (Beast) Barbarian
modified Mercenary Veteran
15+1/14/15+1/8/10/8
Athl, Stealth, Percept, Nature, Decept (, Survival at 3rd, Animal Handling at 10th)
ASIs: Con 18, Str 18, Res:Wis, Con 20, Str 20

He's the muscle/athlete/pack-mule whenever Wild Shape is impractical.
He'd like to be able to Rage to get weapon dice once Unarmed Fighting gets retrained, but see bottom of PHB 147 about using improvised weapons (per Tanarii's note above).

Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
I expect to be able to rely on finding club-compatible objects whenever he can't afford to Rage.

Everybody gets some good way to deal with Darkness by the end of Tier 1: Devil's Sight, Blindsight Wild Shapes, Alert, Blind Fighting
Spike Growth shenanigans (Grapples, Repelling Blast)
Everybody's primary attack counts as magical at 6th level
3 competent melee attackers
2 competent grapplers
Everybody has Stealth, every knowledge skill is covered, and almost everyone has Deception, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Athletics.
2 healers + Goodberry
Everybody has a good Wis save by 12th level