Why not be Undead?

[Delta_tea]

Sorry if this seems like a silly question. But I found Necropolis template/conversion allows your character to convert to Undead type. This removes Con in favor of Charisma but gives a boat load of immunities. It also doesn't cause an alignment change while letting you keep basically everything from before. Why wouldn't everyone want to be Undead if its so easy???

[Troacctid]

Watsonian answer: The ritual is difficult and dangerous, and the secret to performing it is not widely known. The secret to performing it safely, almost unheard of. A failed ritual results in death. Furthermore, those who do practice the ritual tend to be creepy death cultists; are you comfortable putting your life in their hands? Because they're going to be the ones with the nails.

Doylist answer: It costs xp. You lose two levels. That's not free. Also, it may not be readily available in the setting; there are elements of DM discretion involved.

[Rebel7284]

Some reasons
- Optimized Clerics exist. Being Rebuked feels bad. Druids and Paladins, and society at large are not fans of you either.
- If you have a good Con score, you can end up with notably more HP than a fixed D12 gives you.
- Character reasons is a REAL big one. Many character ideas don't jive well with being undead.
- Unclear what "pleasures of the flesh" undead can still enjoy. Snacks are nice!
- Certain class features, such as Rage, don't work with being undead. Certain classes and templates don't work either.
- Need certain workarounds for being healed effectively.

Undead immunities are nice and all, but even if undeath is remotely compatible with your character idea, there is a lot of undead hate built into D&D that you have to watch out for.

[Fizban]

To continue with the phrasing I used in a previous thread: Because I banned it. *arms crossed eyebrow raised emoji*

'Cause seriously, not all DMs allow just anything from any book.


But for practical use one not mentioned yet: If you actually play from 1st level the costs are quite significant, and if you do so as soon as possible you might just find yourself being destroyed due to the lack of your -10 range. Even if you wait until later, there's a very real chance that your usual level of caution will get you killed, where your usual living character would have survived at -10.

And speaking of low hit points, if "everyone" is supposed to include NPCs, well like 95% of the population has only 1 HD and dies. Even those that do start with just enough levels to survive (you need to start at at least 3rd), have now gone from multiple hit dice with a -10 threshold, to quite possibly 1 HD with no threshold. ~6.5 hit points, and the last one doesn't count: 5 points of damage you can take without being obliterated, compared to 15+ you probably could have taken before. NPCs may not be aware of game mechanics exactly, but if they were, I bet some of them would have a problem with that.

There are also a lot of buffs that only work on living creatures, and while healer builds actually have plenty of optimization support, undead healing builds have almost zero. And unless the entire party goes undead, now you've got a split problem as well.

And there's the simple fact that for non-casters- or rather, non-d4/d6-casters, the change in hit die is almost certainly a loss of hit points eventually. Even if you would have started with 10 Con, at high levels you'd still be buying a Con bonus item that would push your hit points higher (for someone with abysmal Con, sure becoming undead is obviously a great idea if they can afford it).


No, the biggest reason to become Necropolitan is to avoid death, that is, death by aging. Which is kinda supposed to be a big deal, and generally the reason Liches exist (it is only when other, easier methods of undeath are added, that the focus shifts to the combat usefulness of returning once destroyed). And going from "unspeakably evil ritual that requires the crafting of a 120,000gp item" to "several easily cast mid-high level spells" to "a ritual that requires no casting ability or even gp components and affects no one but the recipient and is apparently so easy there's a whole city of them," is not a progression I find compelling for undeath in my game. So Necropolitans do not exist, and even if you search up a spell that turns you into an undead without the cost of becoming a Lich, you're still going to deal with any and all complications and level adjustment involved.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Big ones are the low HP and getting absolutely steamrolled when you do have to make a rare fort save. Particular undead vulnerabilities in the form of common anti-undead equipment and characters springs pretty readily to mind too, particularly in light of the roleplaying ramifications of being a horrid mockery of life. Tack on being -way- easier to dominate; control undead, sorc/wiz 2: will save or you're a puppet on a string; and the pros and cons lean slightly toward the con in my mind.

[Fouredged Sword]

I suggest you crack open the libermortis and as your DM what version of "Why necromancy is evil" they are using. There are canons where necromancy is literally magically radioactive and blights the world in small ways that build up over time. A few skeletons won't do anything too bad, but a city of the dead is damaging enough to the general idea of life that it blights the land around it into an unliving wasteland unable to support anything OTHER than undead.

You also lose the ability to reproduce. A city that turns every person into a necropolitain is a city that has doomed itself to slow decline. There are no more children. There is no population growth. Sure, nobody dies of old age, but things happen. Buildings collapse. People murder each other. Each death becomes irreplaceable. An undead city can only exist as a dependent on a living society that feeds it new blood, even if only a trickle. Mix this with the potential for necromancy to be toxic to life and you can see that large scale necromantic civilization is a parasite that unless kept in check kills the host and then slowly dies.

Also death is not a bad thing if you are good in DnD. You have an afterlife to look forward to. Not some theoretical heaven, but a real place you can, in theory, visit before hand, or at least talk to a cleric who can explain exactly what it's like. Death is not the end, but leaving the home you are born to and striding out into a wider multiverse of planes.

Now, that doesn't apply if you are evil because evil afterlives are generally crap, but for good people at least, undeath is a denial of their deserved reward for a life lived virtuously. Virtue in DnD boils down to "try to be good and don't be a ****" so most people qualify as at least neutral.

[Remuko]

Some reasons
- Certain class features, such as Rage, don't work with being undead.

This wasnt the first time I'd heard this so I looked into it.

The spell Rage does not work, which is correct, the spell says it gives morale bonuses. But the Barbarian entry, at least on the SRD, only called out the Will bonus as being a morale bonus, so undead should still benefit from the Bonus to Strength.


A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class.

[The Glyphstone]

There's also the duration to consider. Without a Con score, your Rage lasts for 3 rounds flat. For your average non optimized barbarian, a fight will probably last longer than that.

[Rater202]

Because it hurts. You're essentially being crucified to death. Crucifixion is a form of torture and death by crucifixion can take days.

You've got to want it. And have some serious psychological fortitude while you're at it, because that's the kind of suffering that can break a man.

[Jack_Simth]

Because it hurts. You're essentially being crucified to death. Crucifixion is a form of torture and death by crucifixion can take days.

You've got to want it. And have some serious psychological fortitude while you're at it, because that's the kind of suffering that can break a man.

... that might be why the level loss...

[Rater202]

... that might be why the level loss...

The level loss is, like most things in 3.5, an attempt to force balance on things that honestly are not worth the penalties. Honestly, considering the drawbacks of being undead are only partially mitigated by the Necropolitan's inherent abilities and the advantages of being undead are sometimes situational or things that might be handwaved away, they don't really need that "balance."

But that's a good enough headcanon if you don't want to hand wave away a needless penalty.

[Particle_Man]

Because it might interfere with my quest to become a Green Star Adept. :smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

Let's say that the content *hasn't* been modified for your character. Let's say we're running a published module. How often would we find being undead to be good vs bad?

Can we list the, say, 5 most popular modules, and evaluate when being undead would be a pro vs con?

I'll submit "Red Hand of Doom" as one I remember hearing people mention frequently. Anyone know the module well enough to comment on whether being undead would be good or bad?

[Twurps]

Because I don't like it.

Fluffwise:
-I don't like the idea of being undead
-I don't like carrying the reputation of an undead.

Gameplay:
-I don't like not having the same means of healing as the rest of the party (Easily solved of course, by all of us being udead, but I don't see that happening any time soon).
-I don't like being a thing my party would normally go 'murder hobo for xp' without asking questions.
-I HATE (with a passion!) vulnerability to any kind of mind control

Balance/power:
-IF it is actually stronger, making it a staple doesn't really help. All it does is force the DM to up his power level as well and we're right back where we started. Also: Punpun is a thing. if all we went for was power: everybody and their dog would be Punpun
-I don't like flat immunities. they're boring. Either my opponent can't work around my immunities, and I win easily, or he/she can work around it, and it's useless. It's like killing the tarrasque whilst being airborne. Solid safe strategy, but boring as hell. So I prefer stuff that's dependent on dice rolls. (immunity to mind control might have to be the exception here, as per above)

[Remuko]

There's also the duration to consider. Without a Con score, your Rage lasts for 3 rounds flat. For your average non optimized barbarian, a fight will probably last longer than that.

does it? im not convinced. while reading up about whether undead can be effected by the Str boost from rage, i seen plenty of evidence that it should last 3 + Cha rounds (+any bonus from feats etc), tho Cha is normally a Barb dump stat to be fair.

[Thurbane]

There's also the duration to consider. Without a Con score, your Rage lasts for 3 rounds flat. For your average non optimized barbarian, a fight will probably last longer than that.

does it? im not convinced. while reading up about whether undead can be effected by the Str boost from rage, i seen plenty of evidence that it should last 3 + Cha rounds (+any bonus from feats etc), tho Cha is normally a Barb dump stat to be fair.

There is a citation for this, in a somewhat obscure source:


Barbarian: There are not many barbarians among the undead, but gangs of barbarian ghouls and ghasts are used as shock troops by the more powerful lords of Xaphan. A raging undead barbarian does not gain an increase in Constitution (or anything dependent upon Constitution such as hit points or Fortitude saves) but uses its normal Charisma modifier instead of its Constitution modifier to determine how long a rage lasts. Because undead are immune to fatigue, an undead barbarian is not penalized when a rage ends.

More info here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?520603-3-5-Undead-Barbarians).

[Particle_Man]

This might be relevant: "Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." So some "bring em back" spells don't work, and the higher level ones mean either you stop being undead when you come back, or you have to go through that necropolitan ritual *yet again* and lose a level and 1000 xp besides.

And since you are instantly destroyed at 0 hp, you are more likely to die.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This might be relevant: "Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." So some "bring em back" spells don't work, and the higher level ones mean either you stop being undead when you come back, or you have to go through that necropolitan ritual *yet again* and lose a level and 1000 xp besides.

And since you are instantly destroyed at 0 hp, you are more likely to die.

Revive undead; deathbound 5. It's raise dead with all the serial numbers filed off for undead targets. It's also a sorc/wiz 6 spell.

[Fizban]

I'll submit "Red Hand of Doom" as one I remember hearing people mention frequently. Anyone know the module well enough to comment on whether being undead would be good or bad?
In its base form, the biggest issue would probably be no Rez. It provides a Staff of Life with a few charges, but highest level NPC casters are an 8th level Aasimar Cleric, and a Wizard who won't have Revive Undead on his list. There are some enemy Clerics, but they're evil of course, won't have great chances of rebuking you with your levels and turn resistance, and they're actually supposed to Dominate Person. There are some Abishai that can spam Suggestion you'll also be immune to, and some Succubi IIRC? No need to worry about crits from the Greenspawn Razorfiends, and you're immune to the bad stuff the Ghostlord's minions do. The Ghostlord is only a 5th level Blighter, which did not have Command Undead added to its spell list in CD.

The biggest risk is probably the same one as most characters, getting dragonbreath'd to death if you're not protected and surviving the drawn-out slugfest of the Battle of Brindol, but the immunities do become more significant over time. Assuming the character was leveled up naturally they should be starting behind quite a ways, however. Common changes made to the module include powering up the Ghostlord, but as an undead you'll be immune to anti-living builds, making that even more significant if you fight them.

[Rater202]

-I HATE (with a passion!) vulnerability to any kind of mind control

To be fair, being undead makes you immune to almost literally all of that: Undead have "immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)" by default.

You gain a vulnerability to two specific spells and a class feature in exchange for being immune to literally every other kind of mind control.

And the necropolitan template explicitly gives you resistance to being turned/rebuked or being affected by a control undead spell, and control and command undead allow will saves so most of what you'd be doing to resist mind control still applies.

And, unless you GM is a jackass, the odds of you running into an evil Cleric of a high enough level to command you is slim to none.

Iron Will and Improved Turn Resistance have you covered. Maybe a couple of the feats that Iron Will serves as a prerequisite to, if you're paranoid. Like Cumrbous will(+6 to a will save but you're shaken if you use it..Which, as an undead, you're immune to.) Unnatural Will if you have a decent charisma bonus...

[Quertus]

In its base form, the biggest issue would probably be no Rez. It provides a Staff of Life with a few charges, but highest level NPC casters are an 8th level Aasimar Cleric, and a Wizard who won't have Revive Undead on his list. There are some enemy Clerics, but they're evil of course, won't have great chances of rebuking you with your levels and turn resistance, and they're actually supposed to Dominate Person. There are some Abishai that can spam Suggestion you'll also be immune to, and some Succubi IIRC? No need to worry about crits from the Greenspawn Razorfiends, and you're immune to the bad stuff the Ghostlord's minions do. The Ghostlord is only a 5th level Blighter, which did not have Command Undead added to its spell list in CD.

The biggest risk is probably the same one as most characters, getting dragonbreath'd to death if you're not protected and surviving the drawn-out slugfest of the Battle of Brindol, but the immunities do become more significant over time. Assuming the character was leveled up naturally they should be starting behind quite a ways, however. Common changes made to the module include powering up the Ghostlord, but as an undead you'll be immune to anti-living builds, making that even more significant if you fight them.

So… I'm hearing a lot of "it's better", *except*…

The module gives you free resurrection, whereas you'll *have* to bring your own.

You're fighting a *Dragon*, so you'll probably *need* that resurrection.

… which sounds pretty game-ending.

Then there's the Dominate Person spam. Now, this one's complex.

If you *aren't* wearing a Hat of Disguise, *and* they can make the DC 10 Knowledge Religion check to know that you're undead (and what are the odds that Clerics have Knowledge Religion?), then they'll avoid throwing the spells at you, concentrating them on your teammates. At which point, the value of your being undead is dependent upon your relative defenses (mostly Will save, but also things like Protection from Good). So… could go either way.

But… the Clerics might waste their turns trying to Turn you… which sounds advantageous.

However, you also mentioned NPCs. Which means that the PC probably wants to interact with them, and so probably needs to pay the feat wealth and slot tax to get a Hat of Disguise. Which… once again makes it a judgement call of whether that tax is worth 1/x of the Dominate Person spells being spammed being wasted. I suspect that the calculus on whether a Ring of Protection from Good would be a wise purchase for this module.

So, your WBL is largely spoken for, in terms of interaction and resurrection.

Sounds like the PC would have reasonably strong defenses, but lack the punch of a character who could spend their wealth improving their offense. So… fairly neutral?

[Twurps]

To be fair, being undead makes you immune to almost literally all of that: Undead have "immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)" by default.


Good point. Not enough to go undead for me, but still...

[Bonzai]

10 fluff reasons:

1. Religious values.
2. Procreation.
3. You enjoy being able to eat and drink normal food.
4. Social biases against undead.
5. Vanity.
6. No ability to heal naturally.
7. Immortality can be a curse.
8. You actually enjoy the sensation of.... being alive.
9. A lack of legal protection in most places. Laws generally only apply to living citizens, and no one would bat an eye if an over zealous clergy member dusts you.
10. You value your humanity, and know that undead would rob you of much of what makes you human. It may take time, but it will irrevocably change you into something that is inhuman.

[Erik the Green]

Bonzai, I like all your caveats and agree strongly. There is also an annoying drawback, depending on how seriously you take your RP and want to keep your character options open: RAW, Undead is one of the three types at the top of the Type pyramid.
To quote Savage Species (p143) "once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else." So, it's a one-way trip, short of invoking the get destroyed and then resurrected by someone you really really trust option. And that's hard to picture if you are the sort of person who chooses to become undead for fun and profit...and to avoid consequences...in the first place. Easier, and more fun as a character quest arc would be to try to become a Chosen or at least gain Divine Rank 0 from a deity that grudgingly admits they owe you one...and you don't have to particularly be Good or even good for that gaff, either.

[Bohandas]

Sorry if this seems like a silly question. But I found Necropolis template/conversion allows your character to convert to Undead type.

Do you mean necropolitan? If so, the implied in world reason is that it's extremely painful. IIRC it involves being crucified.

[redking]

Non mechanical reason: being undead sucks. You remember being alive, and what used to bring you pleasure can no longer be enjoyed.

Also, if you encounter a cleric that can command undead, you risk being in thrall forever. Under the clerics complete and total control. Even suicidal orders will not give you an opportunity to resist.

[Maat Mons]

People always worry about being Rebuked and Commanded as Undead. But a Cleric with the right domain could Rebuke or Command other things too. You never hear anyone say "Playing a Warforged puts you at risk of being commanded by Clerics with the Warforged domain."

Anyway, no one has it as bad as Outsiders. If you're an 18th-level Aasimar Cleric, you can be Planar Bound by any 15th-level Wizard who knows your name. You don't need to have ever met the guy, and he can pop off to another plane, cast the spell, and what are you going to do about it?

[Fizban]

People always worry about being Rebuked and Commanded as Undead. But a Cleric with the right domain could Rebuke or Command other things too. You never hear anyone say "Playing a Warforged puts you at risk of being commanded by Clerics with the Warforged domain."
The Warforged domain is the only one to worry about there- unless you plan on playing a plant or elemental. But the ability to usurp control of constructs, one of the primary features of which is absolute loyalty to the creator with basically zero ways to subert it? (One expensive dedicated item, and this domain).

Yeah, no Warforged domain here either. At least undead do have a significantly supported "bloodthirsty pokemon trainer" thing that encourages the DM to monitor their appearance, and plants and elementals have some strong resonant themes. Having all "machines" suddenly hackable by a ridiculously specific domain granted by a particular god, I no like, even if it didn't affect what is supposed to be a standard PC and NPC race.

Anyway, no one has it as bad as Outsiders. If you're an 18th-level Aasimar Cleric, you can be Planar Bound by any 15th-level Wizard who knows your name. You don't need to have ever met the guy, and he can pop off to another plane, cast the spell, and what are you going to do about it?
If the DM actually makes this a thing, it suddenly makes True Names a thing all their own without any wacky mechanics. The efforts a PC would then go to erase all knowledge of their name. . .

[Asmotherion]

It's the extream of "why not have a surgery if you need one". It has it's benefits, but it's not 100% sure to work, and even if it does, it usually will change your life significantly.

-You have to trust some other people to do their job correctly or you might end up dead.
-Your organism (level) needs to be resilient enough, or you might end up dead.
-Your religion may have bad views on the subject, or you personally think badly of undead.
-You end up a vastly unatractive thing after the ritual that keeps decaying. Not everyone is a fan of that state of being.
-Society will view you diferently.

And that's just a few examples of why someone would not want to become a walking corpse.

[Satinavian]

Non mechanical reason: being undead sucks. You remember being alive, and what used to bring you pleasure can no longer be enjoyed.
Not sure that is necessarily true. Every follewer of Evening Glory would insist that you can experience most kinds of pleasure perfectly fine post-mortem. Some of them would have personal experience.

And let's not even get started on all those kinds of undead that are heavily sexualized in fiction, most prominently vampires or how they are often portrayed as decadently indulging in various pleassures and very much enjoying their feelings.

I mean, yes, envying the living for their life is one common undead trope. But it is far from universal and technically there is little preventing many kindof undead to enjoy the same thing they enjoyed before.

[icefractal]

And let's not even get started on all those kinds of undead that are heavily sexualized in fiction, most prominently vampires or how they are often portrayed as decadently indulging in various pleassures and very much enjoying their feelings.
Vampirism is kind of a pyramid scheme trap though. Only the relatively elite become full Vampires (5th level required) the rest become Vampire Spawn. But either way, you're under the control of the vampire who created you, until they die or let you go, which could be centuries.

It is potentially the easiest option, but there are considerable downsides.

[Quertus]

Me Thag am goodest Barbarian, go punch out gods with bare fists and mighty thews. Me Thag sad as me Thag get older, see first grey hair.

Pretty evening dawn Lady says she understand, give me Thag way to stay young. But now me Thag no longer enjoy body things - not even enjoy take good **** on dying enemy.

Scrawny book worm say he fix this. Give me Thag his old hat - evil thing, fill me Thag head with ideas when wear. Teach me Thag to read his funny book. Now, with book and evil hat, me Thag can enter other's bodies, feel warm flesh again.

Me Thag reminded of story of woman who swallow fly; not sure how rest of it go.

Ah, the lengths we'll go to to get what we want.


Vampirism is kind of a pyramid scheme trap though. Only the relatively elite become full Vampires (5th level required) the rest become Vampire Spawn.

Wait, what? So there's no such thing as a Vampire Commoner 1, or a Vampire Monk 1?

[Fouredged Sword]

[I]
Wait, what? So there's no such thing as a Vampire Commoner 1, or a Vampire Monk 1?

Nope. If you are under 5HD you become a vampire spawn instead, losing all your class features. You come back as a vampire spawn with 4RHD. I would imagine this is pretty much like nothing but the very core of you surviving having vampire dumped over the top of you. You lose all your skills, and mechanically I think this would translate to losing much of your memory, or at least becoming unattached to much of your memory, as if it happened to someone else. Some other person you are no longer and do not really know.

[Rater202]

You also implicitly lose racial features.

Granted, you could also take the Vampire Spawn Savage progression in Libris Mortis, which would allow for keeping prior ht-ice and racial features, but savage progressions for the most part suck by default.

[hamishspence]

Wait, what? So there's no such thing as a Vampire Commoner 1, or a Vampire Monk 1?


Nope. If you are under 5HD you become a vampire spawn instead, losing all your class features. You come back as a vampire spawn with 4RHD.

That said, it's possible that with the right magic (maybe a Wish spell, cast by someone else on your corpse?) you could still be turned into a Vampire, since the template does not say "Any creature with 5 or more Hit Dice"

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

It's just that no Vampire can turn a 4HD or less being into a vampire just by biting them.

[Crake]

Big ones are the low HP and getting absolutely steamrolled when you do have to make a rare fort save. Particular undead vulnerabilities in the form of common anti-undead equipment and characters springs pretty readily to mind too, particularly in light of the roleplaying ramifications of being a horrid mockery of life. Tack on being -way- easier to dominate; control undead, sorc/wiz 2: will save or you're a puppet on a string; and the pros and cons lean slightly toward the con in my mind.

Control undead is a 7th level spell, you're thinking of command undead, which is more akin to charm person than dominate, though it lasts 1 day/level rather than 1 hour/level. Of course, it's also a level higher than charm person too, so that's not entirely surprising.

[Bohandas]

Nope. If you are under 5HD you become a vampire spawn instead, losing all your class features. You come back as a vampire spawn with 4RHD. I would imagine this is pretty much like nothing but the very core of you surviving having vampire dumped over the top of you. You lose all your skills, and mechanically I think this would translate to losing much of your memory, or at least becoming unattached to much of your memory, as if it happened to someone else. Some other person you are no longer and do not really know.

To be fair, this is essentially what happens when you die in D&D's cosmology anyway. The souls of the dead forget all but the very most core parts of their identity and spend the afterlife in a dissociative state.

[Anthrowhale]

Greater Turning seems worth pointing out as well as Rebuke Undead. Both of these exist in core so it's very reasonable to expect to encounter them in adventures. While turn resistance helps, there are many conditions (higher level cleric, lucky cleric, optimized cleric) where these are no-save lose vulnerabilities.

A list of no-save vulnerabilities is somewhat interest. W.r.t no-save control, we have:
Constructs //Warforged Domain
Deathless // Deathless Domain
Dragon // Rebuke Dragon
Elemental // Spirit Binding
Fey //Spirit Binding
Ooze // Ooze Domain, Slime Domain, Thirst Domain
Outsiders // Planar Binding, Planar Turning
Plant // Plant Domain
Undead // Rebuke Undead, Spirit Binding (for incorporeal)

That leaves: Aberration, Animal, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Vermin as having a chance. However, subclasses take out many more:

[Air] // Air domain
[Cold] // Cold Domain
[Earth] // Earth Domain
[Fire] // Fire Domain
[Water] // Water Domain
[Spirit] // Spirit Binding

Blightspawned, evil-aligned animals or plants // Blightbringer domain
Reptilian animals // Scalykind Domain
Astral // Spirit Binding
Spiders // Spider Domain
Spirit Folk // Spirit Binding

Fewer creatures are in the insta-gib category, but there are still some significant ones:
Outsiders // Planar Turning
Undead // Greater Turning / Turn Undead
[Air] // Earth Domain
[Earth] // Air domain
[Fire] // Cold Domain, Water Domain
[Water] // Fire Domain
Lycanthropes // Moon Domain

[Rater202]

To be fair, this is essentially what happens when you die in D&D's cosmology anyway. The souls of the dead forget all but the very most core parts of their identity and spend the afterlife in a dissociative state.

Honestly, that's terrifying. You'd think that everybody who knows about that would seek to become immortal. That's worse than ceasing to exist.

"I've finally done it. I've found a ring of three wishes. Now to find a lawyer to make sure I don't get screwed over."

Use one wish to restore your body to perfect health and youth, one to become a vampire, and the third to upgrade to Vampire Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

Also, trivia, a vampire Lord always makes vampires, never Vampire Spawn, so there are, in fact, ways to gain the vampire template without five hit dice.

I find it amusing that the article lists a bunch of prerequisites for how someone becomes a vampire lord but none of them are actually part of the template.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly, that's terrifying. You'd think that everybody who knows about that would seek to become immortal. That's worse than ceasing to exist.

"I've finally done it. I've found a ring of three wishes. Now to find a lawyer to make sure I don't get screwed over."

Use one wish to restore your body to perfect health and youth, one to become a vampire, and the third to upgrade to Vampire Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

Also, trivia, a vampire Lord always makes vampires, never Vampire Spawn, so there are, in fact, ways to gain the vampire template without five hit dice.

I find it amusing that the article lists a bunch of prerequisites for how someone becomes a vampire lord but none of them are actually part of the template.

These wishes are outside the scope of safe wishes are are just ASKING the DM to mess with you.

The first wish kills you and then targets your body with a delayed reincarnate.

The second can't apply a template to you directly, so instead it uses the transport without error function to send you to a vampire looking to spawn. Good luck being a slave for a few thousand years.

The third fizzles.

[Rater202]

These wishes are outside the scope of safe wishes are are just ASKING the DM to mess with you.

The first wish kills you and then targets your body with a delayed reincarnate.

The second can't apply a template to you directly, so instead it uses the transport without error function to send you to a vampire looking to spawn. Good luck being a slave for a few thousand years.

The third fizzles.

That's what the LAwyer s for, to word the wish in a way that it can't be misinterpreted.

Also, we're talking about characters, not players. GM doesn't apply.

And please cite Wish not being able to apply templates?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The one time I played an undead, the DM and I homebrewed necropolitan (and evolved undead) a bit (fluffed as being necropolitan'd basically right on top of a portal to the positive energy plane as an attempt of cultists to corrupt it [which didn't work]). Instead of being based on negative energy, my PC was based on positive energy, so all positive/negative effects were flipped. I healed via positive, was harmed by negative, and was turned by rebuking and rebuked by turning. Of course, I also took Human Heritage to be immune to things that affect undead altogether, while still having immunity to mind-affecting and such, so I didn't have to worry about any of that stuff anyway.

Being destroyed at 0 was my main concern; for that, I played a psionic manifester with a psicrystal and basically abused +1 manifester arrows and share pain/vigor on it for tons of hp to make up the difference. Dumping Con and the points I would've spent on it (and upping my age category a bit) definitely improved my numbers in other areas to help compensate even more.

[hamishspence]

The second can't apply a template to you directly, so instead it uses the transport without error function to send you to a vampire looking to spawn.

That's what the LAwyer s for, to word the wish in a way that it can't be misinterpreted.

Also, we're talking about characters, not players. GM doesn't apply.

And please cite Wish not being able to apply templates?

Savage Species actually goes into some detail on "Using Wish to become a new kind of creature".


However, it's also the kind of wish which may possibly not function fully:

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

In this case, the recommendation in Savage Species is for partial fulfilment. The spellcaster must make a Spellcraft check for each "special ability" - 5% chance to have the ability, for each point by which the check result exceeds 20. So a 40% chance if they have a Spellcraft check result of 28. And the spellcaster charges a lot of gold.

Still, as written, a very very rich 1st level character, who finds a very powerful spellcaster with the Wish spell, could ask them to turn them into a vampire, and it could reasonably work, granting all the abilities if the spellcaster rolls well on all their Spellcraft checks.

[Rater202]

That honestly sounds like another case of arbitrarily making things suck to discourage players from trying to get cool stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That honestly sounds like another case of arbitrarily making things suck to discourage players from trying to get cool stuff."Oh, you're not a vanilla PC race with a single PHB class? Here are about fifty ways we ensured you suck more than needed without jumping through hoops or houseruling! Enjoy!"

The 3e devs did that a lot. They did not like anyone who had the audacity to play anything interesting.

[Asmotherion]

Vampirism is kind of a pyramid scheme trap though. Only the relatively elite become full Vampires (5th level required) the rest become Vampire Spawn. But either way, you're under the control of the vampire who created you, until they die or let you go, which could be centuries.

It is potentially the easiest option, but there are considerable downsides.

True, but unlike a pyramid scheme, you always end up winning eternal life; The fact you are virtually employed for life is just an added benefit.

-"How to sell them on Vampirism for dummies"

[ShurikVch]

Non mechanical reason: being undead sucks. You remember being alive, and what used to bring you pleasure can no longer be enjoyed.
Libris Mortis, Diet:

However, even undead that do not need to eat may have a preferred morsel. Essentially, some undead can choose to eat if they desire, even if they have no requirement to consume. They could eat even ordinary food, if they desired to appear normal or were interested in trying to tease out some hint of flavor; undead with tongues, such as ghouls and skirrs actually retain their sense of taste.

And about the... "other pleasures" - let's see fluff for the Necromantic Bloodline feat (Dragon #325):

The touch of undeath in a family almost exclusively comes from intelligent, corporeal undead. It takes powerful magic or extremely bizarre situations for creature to gain this feat from unintelligent or incorporeal undead. The descendants of ghouls tend to be feral and constantly hungry. Those with ghast ancestors generally have a strong, unpleasant stench, and they often find it difficult to satiate their hunger. Lich-blooded characters value intelligence and generally have elitist personalities, often appearing gaunt and skeletal. Characters descended from mummies tend to have dull but focused personalities, and many have gaunt, dry skin. Descendants of vampires tend to have long canine teeth and commanding, seductive personalities. Wight-blooded characters tend to have clawlike fingernails and toenails, and lean, muscular bodies; they are generally hate-filled loners who hold grudges.

[Maat Mons]

Wasn't medieval society already kind of a pyramid scheme?

[Zanos]

Doylist answer: It costs xp. You lose two levels. That's not free. Also, it may not be readily available in the setting; there are elements of DM discretion involved.
Not that your point is any less valid, but if you do it at level 3 you should only lose one level. Losing a level sets your XP to halfway between the previous levels, which would be 2000 total xp. You'd then lose another 1000, so you'd be at 1000, just enough to still be level 2.

At very high levels of optimization being undead is not good. The undead type makes you vulnerable to a lot of effects that are not easy to defend against, and you lose your ability bonus to fortitude saves and hit points. There are other ways to get undead immunities from spells and magic items, and you also won't lose those immunities when you use form changing magic since they aren't attached to your base form.

[Particle_Man]

And with respect to vampirism in particular, make sure your DM doesn't adopt the OOTS view on vampires, or you will find that "you" the PC are the soul trapped inside the vampire's head and the vampires is now running "your" body (so effectively an NPC). Unless you can "Pull a Durkon" somehow *and* exceed Durkon by keeping the vampire body indefinitely while under your pc's control.

[Asmotherion]

Not that your point is any less valid, but if you do it at level 3 you should only lose one level. Losing a level sets your XP to halfway between the previous levels, which would be 2000 total xp. You'd then lose another 1000, so you'd be at 1000, just enough to still be level 2.

At very high levels of optimization being undead is not good. The undead type makes you vulnerable to a lot of effects that are not easy to defend against, and you lose your ability bonus to fortitude saves and hit points. There are other ways to get undead immunities from spells and magic items, and you also won't lose those immunities when you use form changing magic since they aren't attached to your base form.

Being alive gives you far worse vulnerabilities. And spells can off-set the Undead vulnerabilities just like they can for alive creatures. It really pays off being Undead, for it takes less spells to persist.

As an undead (Arcane) Caster, the only thing you have to worry about is positoxins and Dead Magic Zones. At least in high levels of Play.

[noob]

Because it might interfere with my quest to become a Green Star Adept. :smallbiggrin:

You mean "because it would save me from taking one really bad prc that would allow my character to not overshadow too much the fighter that waste half of its turns doing nothing at all".
I still think there is plenty of other bad prcs to take to become weaker and you need not to restrict yourself to casting ones: you could try to get some levels in fighter and polymorph in a dwarf to qualify for dwarven defender then stop being a dwarf so that the class is even more useless(that is mid level optimisation).

[Clistenes]

And with respect to vampirism in particular, make sure your DM doesn't adopt the OOTS view on vampires, or you will find that "you" the PC are the soul trapped inside the vampire's head and the vampires is now running "your" body (so effectively an NPC). Unless you can "Pull a Durkon" somehow *and* exceed Durkon by keeping the vampire body indefinitely while under your pc's control.

This. In some settings ALL undead are kinda like that. The original character dies a new spirit inhabits their corpse...

[Quertus]

To be fair, this is essentially what happens when you die in D&D's cosmology anyway. The souls of the dead forget all but the very most core parts of their identity and spend the afterlife in a dissociative state.

I thought that this thread was "reasons *not* to be undead", not "the existential horror that demonstrates why everyone should be going for immortality". :smallamused:


Savage Species actually goes into some detail on "Using Wish to become a new kind of creature".


However, it's also the kind of wish which may possibly not function fully:

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

In this case, the recommendation in Savage Species is for partial fulfilment. The spellcaster must make a Spellcraft check for each "special ability" - 5% chance to have the ability, for each point by which the check result exceeds 20. So a 40% chance if they have a Spellcraft check result of 28. And the spellcaster charges a lot of gold.

Still, as written, a very very rich 1st level character, who finds a very powerful spellcaster with the Wish spell, could ask them to turn them into a vampire, and it could reasonably work, granting all the abilities if the spellcaster rolls well on all their Spellcraft checks.

Those who will provide the Wish, and Vow not to destroy (and, preferably, to protect) the world are welcome to can upon Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, to provide 100% ability acquisition. :smallwink:


True, but unlike a pyramid scheme, you always end up winning eternal life; The fact you are virtually employed for life is just an added benefit.

-"How to sell them on Vampirism for dummies"

Thanks for the laugh! :smallbiggrin:

Good pitch…