PDA

View Full Version : Symbiotic Relationships (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2021-04-07, 08:18 AM
I dismissed this class as nothing more than a really bad attempt at making a slightly better monk / bard. Not a high bar. You half expect it to be achievable. At least for the monk side of things.
I am also completely baffled how nothing has changed about the class itself between the original spheres of power, and USOP. Maybe no one knew what to do with it.
It is the only class that has essentially no customization once the archetype has been chosen. It also has some of the most in-built fluff of any other class in spheres. Which is good and bad. A psionic symbiont is cool. Though it's basically just generically psionic-fluffed generic class features.

Ultimately, it felt less like an SoP class and more like a standard one. Or perhaps a build guide. So... perhaps a review will reveal some of those diamonds in the rough.

Post Review Analysis: Yeah. Base class is boring as sin, and has god-awful Psionics, and no redeeming qualities. And even though it has a martial-ish level table...it has no abilities that lets it succeed as a martial. Why is this a partial casting class!??! To enforce theming. But damn they do a bad job.
The archetypes on the other hand? A lot of them really try their best. Some of them even succeed. None of them really seem to take any notice that it's a partial casting class.

Well. I had several preconceptions blown out of the water. None of them in the way I wanted. OK, Gravecrawler is a pretty cool redesign even as someone who doesn't care for minionmancy. That should be released as its own class, if I'm being honest. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629899-(Spheres-of-Power)-Gravecrawler-class-PEACH&p=25002953#post25002953) I mean, I'm pretty sure with a few dozen splatbooks and a couple archetypes, it could be very respectable.

Sorry: I feel like I'm a bit mean with this review. But I'm just being honest. This class sucks.


Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds.
(M) Meh: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined well enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(A): Archetype: This is rated based on its used in an archetype, because it's so extremely superior in that context.

(G-S): Powerful talents that are almost, but not quite, universally useful or desirable.
(M-G): These are pretty reasonable talents of mediocre strength.
(N-M): It technically has a use, but the cost simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.


Class Features

Weapon / Armor proficiency (M): Simple weapons + an extremely specific set of 1-handed weapons, which roughly fluff to "nimble weaponry." So yeah, very much evokes Monk here. Oddly enough also has shields. Useful when your weapons are one-handed.
A generous DM would just allow proficiency with any martial finesse weapon, keeping with the theme.

Casting (M): Mid caster. Not good not bad. Sorta frustrating place for a caster, but this is clearly a martial with casting rather than a caster with fighting. So you basically just have more talents relative to low casters.
Oddly enough, despite having the typical CAM change with USOP, the rest of the class features still use exclusively Intelligence, so picking anything else for your CAM is a bad move. Your GM might be kind enough to offer flexibility.

Mental Powers (N-, F): Thematic... But absolutely atrocious mechanically. I mean, even ignoring telekinesis. Both spheres are very much high caster spheres. And mind sphere has a specialist so good at the job that any other mind specialist is shunt out.

Battlefield Sense (M): Immediately get your full int bonus to AC and CMD, which applies to touch and flat footed. But you have no real armor, and no provision for Unarmored Training. At least you're casting from Int, so it's not as though it's an otherwise essentially dead stat.

Psionics (N): 2 + int mod + 2*lvl rounds of psionics per day. Spends a standard action to activate (but free action to maintain). And can only have one ability up at a time. That's pretty limited, but in line with a bard.
Wow. I am impressed with how utterly underwhelming these were. These are the class's defining features! And they suck!
Here's my fix: Mind Link / Share Expertise uses 1 round per minute / hour / day depending on rank of Mind Link. Mind Link doesn't count against psionic limit. And just add like 8 to 10 levels to the class with regard to this class feature. It's slap dash, but it might be enough.
Mind Link (N-, F): Telepathy is a conceptually useful ability. But you have to activate it as a standard action, and have very, very limited duration. With how easily you can do this with magic talents for excessive amounts of time and no range limit, this is such a waste. Oh, and it takes your psionics slot.

Battlefield Relay (M): Aggressively mediocre. Not necessarily for its effect, but because Ghost Sovern (Soul Weaver) just does it better in literally every single way without a will save, nor daily limit.

Telekinetic Manipulation (N--): Wow. Really not helping the case for telekinesis here, dude. Immediate action, while active, small penalty...before it's even rolled. Jesus Christ that is useless. At lest Mind Link gives you something productive, if enemies respond to your communications.

Share Expertise (G): Symbiat is an int-based class. So you can at least semi-reliably have the needed skills to share. The problem is the duration, and activation time. But I'm giving it a boost because I've got to cut this class some slack.

Telekinetic Edge (M): I'd probably rate this higher if it at least started off with like your entire team. Sure, this is adding +2 AC over Inspire Courage, and is an unnamed bonus, but comes online 5 levels later and is single target.

Share Capacity (G): OK, I think this is actually a potentially half-decent ability, to enable teamwork feats without sapping the entire team's feat slots. If only this didn't come online 7 levels in. That feels like a slap across the face.

Psionic Fortress (M-G): The lowest range ability of them all, but he does offer a chunky bonus to both AC and Will saves. Will saves in particular are very useful post level-11.

Psionic Colossus (M): Not bad. Definitely. Just...by the time you're level 16, this is sorta redundant. Maybe you'll add +3-ish to your barbarian's AC. Yikes.


ESP (G): A small bonus to SM and Perception. But every plus to Perception is amazing.

Evasion (G): Evasion is nice.

Pushed Movement (N-M): Pathfinder is a very static game. Movement speed means next to nothing for 90% of use cases.

Danger Sense (F): Is purely a flavor addition.

Uncanny Dodge (G): Not losing dex bonus is nice. Especially since you probably have weapon finesse, as the class is trying to hint you towards, but not actually provide.

Two Minds (G-S): Neat. A not-generic class feature, giving advantage / super advantage on will saves. Will saves are the save-or-lose saves. So yeah. Nice.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (G): no more flanking. Yay. Screw rogues and their pointy tool.

Improved Evasion (M): Eh. Who cares

Greater Psionics (N-M): Perhaps the most disappointing capstone ever. Doesn't speed up psionics. Doesn't make it more efficient. Doesn't give you more rounds. You just get to spend double the rounds to get an additional psionic effect.
Like, it's level 20 man. Let them at least: activate a psionic as a free action once per round and activate 2 as a swift action.



Archetypes

Overview: Almost entirely reworks the class, while losing next to none of the generic stuff. Somehow turns out to be really interesting. Perhaps a little bit strong. Perhaps. lol.
Corrupted Powers (M-G): Trade Telekinesis for Death. Not the best trade for a martial caster, but it's a positive trade.

Implant Drone (I, F): Normally the F rating is a "consolation prize" rating. It's not good, but helps your theming in particular. Well, you are going to have to get rid of that flavor in order to make use of it with your allies. But this defines that you can have up to CAM or 1/2 CL drones at a time. Only thing it does, really. Unfortunately requires a melee touch to grant. But it replaces Psionics outright, which is definitely a win. Saves you paperwork even if you use this for nothing else.

Swarm Powers: Oh. Bringing in some SoP design principles now? Neat.
Cocoon, Spray (S++): AoE Cocoon for a spell point. A lot of Cocoon support, but damn, this is on another level.
Energizing Drones (S+): Grant droned allies +2 to almost all d20 (and damage) rolls. +4 if they are vs droned enemies. Especially effective for you, since your undead are automatically droned.
Cocoon, Healing (S): Now this... is actually very respectable. Up to 10x class level healing over 1 minute for a single spell point.

Cocoon (G-S): Standard action, close range, effectively a minute-long stun. They can try to break free of every round, but most monsters don't have ranks in Escape Artist. Larger creatures are obviously going to break out easier with Strength, but that's obvious. Can also serve as (incredibly) lightly defensive utility.
Cocoon, Mind Warp (G-S): Not only do you stun the enemy, but can then use an immediate action to inflict a Mind sphere effect whenever you feel like it? Neat!
Corrupting Drones (G-S): a -2 to saves vs all the things the class does. Or -4 for a spell point. (That is for all of your drones!)
Mobile Drones (G-S): OK, now that's... a reason to pick up the burrowing / improved wings... And that's also positively terrifying.

Damaging Drone (G): Finally grants some range to those buggers. And makes it so you're not totally wasting your time if you do it in combat. Still mostly wasting your time, but not totally.
Hive Network (I, F): God... This could positively wreck a creature's life, all while being almost impossible to connect you to the poor thing's actions.

Discorporation (M-G) The option of discorporating as an immediate action to save yourself is neat. But otherwise this ability is particularly underwhelming.

Hive Senses (M): Blindsight 10 ft, and get to share blindsight with droned creatures. A useful ability. Not useful range.
Enduring Drones (M, F): You don't need to keep repeatedly infecting people.
Distributed Mind (M): Meh. You already have advantage. I mean, sure, you can go for super advantage if you care to.
Hive Network, Improved (M): Any sphere effect on any drone creature on your plane. That's neat. Not sure you care all that much about it. Especially by level 18.

Revolting Embrace (N-M): What a completely random ability to have.
Expanded Swarm (N-M): 2 extra drones at once. You really don't want to need it. But if you need it, you need it.
Wings (N-M): Gliding for a feat? Eh. Not great by SoP standards.
Cocoon (N-M): Staggering yourself for an extra 1 hp / level... probably not worth it. Not even with 1/2 level DR.
Burrowing (N-M): In a vacuum, it's pretty neat. With Alteration sphere considered, this does seem kinda pointless.

Wings, Improved (N): Just like Burrowing, this is pretty pointless. Unless you want to grant your undead flying with Mobile Drones. I wouldn't spend 3 Swarm Powers for that.


Hive Workers (G-S): Use Mind sphere on mindless creatures with drones. And some reanimation improvement too.

Swarm Simulacrum (M): Gives a neat buff to a single undead, and allows it to act as a shield for a target with an implanted drone for a few rounds. Only usable once per day though.

Hive Transference (G, F): Infinite reincarnate, so long as you've got humanoid corpses that aren't getting destroyed... And you... um... Kinda raise undead. You should have a few of those.


Overview: You know? This should probably just be the default version of the class. Flavorful and powerful, without being generic. Or maybe it shouldn't be the default version, due to having so many time-specific abilities, and thus requiring more effort from archetypes.

Chronomancy (G): Time sphere may be pretty poor, but even it is better than telekinesis, especially as a partial caster. Warp is...Warp. But it's not trying to overlap Mind sphere. So this is a win.

Enhanced Teleportation (C): This is the entire reason you take this archetype. +1 (unit) duration to alter time talents per 3 levels. Trying to Steal Time to permanently lock down enemies, with absolute ease, is probably going to get the class banned from the table.
Simultaneously, however, for most of the talents that wouldn't be banned already have scaling duration, and you're imperceptibly better than a full caster.
With Time Freeze at least, you can go JoJo. And that's probably about as

Psionics
Rapid Teleportation (S): Doesn't take a psionic slot, and improves the usability of teleport. Even to the point of getting to use it as a swift action just for possessing Quick Teleport, without the spell point.

Temporal Feedback Loop (S+): Grants a target disadvantage on basically every d20 roll. Jesus Christ! Wow! OK. Neat! I think it takes up your psionics slot, but damn. That's a good lock down... And doesn't take any further action from you once you've inflicted it. Pretty sure it uses your rounds while it's active.

Warp Dodge (M): You must be a real-life psychic to be able to tell when you need to spend your turn to activate this, and then have your allies just barely fail their saves.

Timeline Link (M): Meh. +2 to a single person's skill checks, using up your precious rounds.

Warp Edge (M): Still essentially Inspire Courage, 5 levels late. But now it's up against Temporal Feedback Loop.

Temporal Accord (<S++>): Depending on how you read this, this is insane. Or pretty useless. It doesn't say "while it's activated." So theoretically, it's a massive bump to your entire party's initiative. And same with reflex saves.

Temporal Armor (M-G): Reflex is definitely worse than Will. And you are still trying to contest with Temporal Feedback Loop. But this is favorable vs large numbers of smaller threat enemies.

Chronomantic Mastery (G): 2 move actions, and slightly better haste bonuses. 3 move actions with Temporal Haste. And doesn't take a psionics slot. The duration scaling is poor, but by this level it'll last a full combat one way or another.

Greater Temporal Accord (G): ... If you just lost sight / LOE on your ally within 60 ft of you, you have much bigger things to worry about than whether or not you can buff th- Oh right. You can teleport. Do that.


Overview: Cool little archetype. Neat abilities. But doesn't change enough from the base class to be able to save it. All while competing with the Eliciter, and goes several levels without getting any abilities of note.
Mental Powers (G): Lose telekinesis in order to have full caster on Mind sphere. Better state of affairs than before. And hey, just dip into Eliciter for just 1 level, and you'll be fine enough.

Splintering Strike (S): Hrm. Neat, considering it can stack with Eliciter. Possibly of use as a Gestalt. Not nearly as good as Eliciter in raw power and reliability, though it scales twice as quickly and stacks. How does one activate it in social situations without negating its usefulness... Illusion sphere. Suppression. Touch.

Psionics
Coordination (N): Absolutely tiny bonus to damage.

Extension (G-S): Swift action lesser charm... that's neat. Not game breaking. And it requires a hit in melee. But it's neat.

Assimilation (<S>): Gosh. I keep missing that some abilities don't have "while this effect is active." So this is just a massive passive bonus to will saves. Assuming your DM reads it like that. If your DM deems that this must be active, it's trash.

Trepanation (S+): Wraith disappearance, but also buff your ally's stuff in the mean time. It...does not make explicit that it uses psionic rounds. One would assume so, but it says you can use psionic abilities, which one would infer to mean that it's normally possible to do so while in Trepanation. Which means it's not taking a psionics slot.



Overview: A singular gimmick given an archetype. Not to be disparaging, as it is an interesting gimmick that could have been interesting if it were just not tied to this class. And perhaps if it had some some more substance behind it. A bit more meat. More choice. Oh, and if it wasn't basically just a martial that has the lasting power of a caster.

Background: I'll be honest? This is the archetype that burst my bubble both when it comes to CMs being dog doo, and same for telekinesis. And I thank the archetype immensely for it. With that context out of the way...
Of note: Never updated to USOP. Probably due to proximity of releases, and no one caring once it was out. But I don't know.

Proficiencies (S++): Loses shields and highly specific martial weapons to gain armor and martial tradition (which is like 4-6 martial talents). Yeah. No, that's... that's great.
Blended Training (G-S): Finally, the 3/4 BAB class has the option to have martial-style abilities!
Maneuver Specialist (N): Grants two bonus telekinesis talents. But not full caster level. When the CMs being used by Telekinesis are based on CL. Oh boy.
Mental Maneuvers (G): Give up AC Bonus for the ability to use armor, and a bonus sphere. Great trade off.

Kinetic Overload: Activates as move action now. Yay. Ignores the -5 CM on using the main interaction of the class. Beyond epic!
Allows for use of Brute/Scoundrel/Wrestling. But not just passively, only during this time limit. He gains a cantrip, shape-less, type-less Destructive blast on any granted attacks by those spheres. And allows those spheres to have their basic abilities done AoE with a spell point. Neat. Again, only during the time limt.

Also gain the following abilities (again... exclusively while during the time limit).
Focused Push (M): A tiny bonus for doing what you do? Neat. Oh. Wait, you mean it only makes up for your lack of CL, and exclusively during the time limit? Wow, raw deal dude.
Unconscious Deflection (M): An even more tiny bonus to AC? Well, you've got armor now, so neat.
Force Trample (I): I... don't get it. I mean...yay for having another option? I guess? Why you would want to hurl yourself through enemies is beyond me. Why this is worth waiting until level 7 for is even further beyond.
Overpowering Force (S): It took until level 9, but you can finally ignore spell resistance. This is probably around the time that it starts seeing widespread adoption, so congrats.

Focusing Overload (<C>): You think I'm kidding, but this is proof that it was never updated to USOP. Before USOP, you not only had a -5 to CMs, but they also got a save before you even attempted it. Dayam. The writers were really scared that telekinesis would take off originally.

Kinetic Evasion (M): Evasions are only active while Kinetic Overload is active. But no armor restriction. Honestly, don't think there needed to be any give and take with letting it evade in armor, but it works.

Earthshaker (S): Gain the one class ability he has... permanently! Woo!


Basically: Awesome! It's fully committed to War. That's great. Even does the silly limited ranges well by tying them to a talent, and then expands on the war sphere talent.
It just doesn't change enough to be of particular note, or to make it worth more than a 1 level dip for A Genius for War. There is no compelling reason to go any further when there is an Incanter on the board.


Overall: Although the individual abilities are good, it just doesn't sum up to a compelling package. Why would I play this vs an Incanter who gets more talents? Would I take 3 extra class features, over 20 levels, or 10 extra talents? Yeah... Not really a question.
Covert Training (G-S): War sphere is a martial sphere, which likes partial casters (I believe... last I've checked). And Illusion sphere... Well, it requires creative use to not enable will saves, but it's plenty possible. Overall, a very useful set of spheres.

Logistics (G): Replace Psionics to gain more talents or feats. Makes up for not being a full caster.

Low Drag (G): Stealth is better than Sense Motive for most characters.

High Speed (N): Nerfed speed. Literally doesn't matter. But it's basically a strict nerf, which has even monk laughing.

Always Ready (G): Once / round, cast from Illusion or War as a move action. Or 2 spell points to cast as an immediate action even while flat-footed. But only lasts for at most 1 round when cast this way. Still very thematic of a ninja.

Rapid Deployment (G): Free action cantrips each round. 1 round duration. Again, neat. it's at least not an utterly disappointing capstone.


Overview: Pure theme. No real consistency nor interplay of abilities. Still a good trade off for the base class
Vampire Touch (G): Loses 2 talents in order to gain 1 talent...but full casting in the sphere... unfortunately the sphere is Blood. But it lost telekinesis. I think that's a good trade. Not even a meme.

Vampiric heritage (G): Replaces the pathetic psionics with passive abilities.
Divine Undead (<G>): Speed divination for specifically undead, as a full caster? Useful when divining for undead is useful. When is not often. But it does happen.

Fangs (N-M, F): Meh. Very conservative power allotment.

Wall Cling (G): It's not flight, and it's not fast, and it doesn't scale. But passive ability to travel along any surface is cool.

Night Eye (<M-G>): Darkvision is good. So good that there are memes about people trying to use darkvision too often, and people being sick(/jealous) of it.

Mist Form (G, F): A classic vampire ability, and finally grants flight, though you'd get it earlier and better and for longer if you used Alteration sphere. Kind of the emblematic of the problem with highly thematic classes in SoP.

Dominate (N-): Casts a Mind sphere ability with a will save to resist, and then another every round, and requires concentration as a standard action to maintain, and it's limited per day. Yeah, that's pointless. It's here to say it's here.

Inured To Death (M): Ignore negative levels, outside of death. Eh.

Greater Domination (G-S): Now it lasts for 20 hours, and the creature only gets a new save every hour. That's actually useful.


Overview: Sad as I am to admit it, because I basically only ever saw Shadow Leap before...this class feature not only has next to nothing going on, but the few ability adjustments it got were already inherent to Dark sphere itself, or a direct nerf from even the base form.
Dark Passage (G): Exchange Telekinesis for Darkness. A pretty great sphere with great support. Really really talent hungry though, and you don't have as many talents as a true caster.

Shadow Leap (G-S): Honestly, every time I make a Dark caster, I am tempted to dip a single level into Invidian purely for this move action telepoirt within my darkness without a spell point. It really just just cool. And even as static as D&D is, this does have usefulness in teleporting behind your meat shields.

Blackened Psyche: Adjusts it so psionics now runs off of CAM
Shadow Manipulation (N): You've got 20% concealment at level 1? Sweet beans! It cost you a standard, and immediate action, and affects just 1 person, and has a daily limit but it's not like... oh, you have the Dark sphere?

Jumping At Shadows (N): Well... OK, clearly this is intended to be supporting a rogue even more than darkness normally does. But this is literally worse than even the knock off Inspire Courage of the base form. And it's still coming in 5 levels late. What's the rogue supposed to do until you get to level 6? Actually find flanking solutions?

Afraid of the Dark (G-S): Took 11 levels, but you've got a useful ability. And it's a passive. Being near by an enemy causes self-escalating fear. And then running away negates the fear. I mean, at worst, that means it's a 3 round cycle - weaken, run away run back - but it's neat and it's passive, and that's not a bad outcome.

Shadow Puppetry (N-M): It's a neat pseudo-exhaust, plus a stagger. It also lacks the "while this effect is active" wording, so it's arguably passive. But with it being targeted, your GM might not see that as likely. Save for the stagger, this is a relatively minor effect. Stagger is quite killer vs anything that needs a full round action, like the martials ... oh, you mean you already have Dark sphere and could do that by level 1? Well, you're not a full caster anyway, they are probably making their saves.


Basically: Full caster telekinesis...yay. I ... think. But nerfs literally everything else it touches. I really do try and not have my anti-telekinesis bias to slip in, but it's not even that. The writers themselves are trying to tell you something! It doesn't even try to sell itself over an Incanter.

Basically: Telekinesis. Not even ironically. It's just bad.

Leadership sphere. No thanks.

Overall: Take Chronomancer.
Twisted Mind (M-G): Still using Mind sphere. At least it exchanges Telekinesis for Warp, which is great. But Warp is still warp.

Lengthened Teleport???????????: Know what? It's been literal years, and been through USOP, and literally no one has addressed that Pushed Movement was never a psionic ability. Not even the writers gave a **** about the archetype. Why should I?

SangoProduction
2021-04-07, 01:17 PM
OK, and finished. Thank you all for your patience as I went back to bed... and was tormented by nightmares of sentient spiders. lol. If I seem mean, just blame the spiders, OK? I'm just giving my honest opinions without intending to disparage anyone.

Rynjin
2021-04-07, 09:16 PM
Symbiat is I think the only SoP class I've looked at repeatedly and thought "why would anyone ever want to play this?" every single time. Each of the others I've found a potentially interesting use for, or an archetype that's really grabbed me (the Lingchi Warrior Armorist, for instance, even though I'm not a huge fan of the base class), but on the Symbiat? Nothin'.

SangoProduction
2021-04-08, 01:52 AM
Symbiat is I think the only SoP class I've looked at repeatedly and thought "why would anyone ever want to play this?" every single time. Each of the others I've found a potentially interesting use for, or an archetype that's really grabbed me (the Lingchi Warrior Armorist, for instance, even though I'm not a huge fan of the base class), but on the Symbiat? Nothin'.

Same here. But I'm somewhat glad I got rid of the nagging feeling that there was just something I was missing about it.