The Sprite is pretty good (Chain Pact).

[Evaar]

Hi.

This struck me yesterday and I haven't really seen anyone talking about it. Everyone sort of presumes the Imp is the best pet for the Pact of the Chain Warlock.

With the release of Tasha's, I would say it's the Sprite and it's because of the new invocation: Investment of the Chain Master.

There are two main things we care about here. First, you can command your familiar to make an attack with a bonus action. Second, if your familiar would force a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC.

The Sprite has a fly speed of 40 and its primary attack option is its Shortbow, for which it has a range of 40 feet, +6 to hit, and deals 1 damage. Not super accurate at higher levels, but workable. We don't care about the damage. I don't see any other familiars with a ranged attack, and the little things are fragile so we want to be able to keep it out of harm's way. The rider on the attack forces a target it hits to make a Constitution saving throw against DC 10 --- but wait, replace that with your spell save DC because of the invocation -- or be poisoned for 1 minute. No follow-up saves.

If it rolls 5 or lower, it's unconscious unless it takes damage or someone spends an action waking it up. That's just gravy. Even if it wakes up, it's still poisoned.

The specific language of the poisoned condition here is extremely potent. I think it clearly was designed around the Save DC being very easy to pass. With this invocation, that is no longer the case. Pretty soon the DM WILL start targeting it, and when that happens it's going to die. Hide it around corners as best you can. But even if it dies, that's one hit your allies didn't take.

Unfortunately, it does rely on a bonus action to use so that doesn't benefit all patrons equally. Fathomless, for example, has a pretty busy bonus action already with its tentacle proficiency times per day. However the Celestial, Fiend, or Genie can all make excellent use of this. Also consider the Celestial's access to healing in coordination with the Gift of the Ever Living Ones invocation, which maximizes healing rolls you receive.

But this isn't here to propose a full build. I just wanted to stick up for Griffin McElroy's least favorite soda - Sprite.

[OldTrees1]

Oh yes they can be pretty good. Personally I am still a fan of the Pseudodragon for the telepathy.

[Greywander]

Between its alignment detection and ranged poison attack, the sprite can be pretty useful. I don't think it's better than the imp, but it can be used for a few things that the imp can't, so it depends on what you're trying to do.

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep. The DC doesn't matter; it's not failing the DC by 5 or more, it's rolling 5 or less regardless of the DC. Even without any bonus to the save, that's only going to happen 25% of the time. A lot of monsters have really good CON as well, making it impossible to roll a 5 or lower.

Just something to keep in mind. It's not as though this makes the sprite useless, but the sleep aspect of their poison is unreliable at best, and useless at worst. If that's why you're taking a sprite, you should reconsider. But the sprite does offer some other benefits that aren't found on the imp.

[Evaar]

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep.

Yes, I went over that in the original post. The sleep effect is just a side benefit, we're mainly here for the poisoned condition.

I don't see why the imp is better at this point. Before Tasha's, sure, but at this point the Sprite provides unmatched combat ability and it's still an invisible scout. The imp is more resilient, but I'm not clear what that resilience really does for us if it's not otherwise threatening.

Also, I feel like this point isn't really sinking in - the poison has a duration of 1 minute with no follow up saves. Can anyone find another source of the poisoned condition that lasts for the entirety of combat that doesn't allow saves each turn? Or an equivalent effect like 1 minute blindness with no follow up saves?

[ATHATH]

Yes, I went over that in the original post. The sleep effect is just a side benefit, we're mainly here for the poisoned condition.

I don't see why the imp is better at this point. Before Tasha's, sure, but at this point the Sprite provides unmatched combat ability and it's still an invisible scout. The imp is more resilient, but I'm not clear what that resilience really does for us if it's not otherwise threatening.
The sprite also has extra utility in the form of its Heart Sight ability.

Something else that's often overlooked is that although the sprite can't use its action to attack, it CAN still use its action to become invisible again after you use your bonus action to make it attack, effectively giving it advantage on the first attack you order it to make each round. Your familiar might or might not even be able to hold its action to become invisible again immediately after you order it to attack (instead of having to wait for its turn to come around in the initiative order), depending on if your DM rules that using your bonus action to command your familiar to attack consumes your familiar's reaction like sacrificing one of your attacks from the Attack action does.

Sprites combo especially well with putrid undead from the Summon Undead spell, which can force poisoned enemies to make a save vs. paralysis on each hit. Things get even nastier if you throw an Oathbreaker Paladin into the mix, whose Aura of Hate can buff the damage of your undead minion and who can deal massive damage to paralyzed enemies with crit-smites. It's a shame that Pact Magic spell slots cap out at 5th level instead of 6th- Warlock summoners kind of get their gimmicks handicapped in higher level play due to their Tasha's summons (aside from the ones from Summon Fiend) never getting their third attacks (as far as I'm aware, Warlocks can't upcast spells into their Mystic Arcanum slots).

The sprite itself can also theoretically get in on that Aura of Hate action if you can make it count as a fiend (Find Familiar says that the familiar "is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast"; I don't know how that clause would interact with a familiar whose form wouldn't normally count as a beast), although I wouldn't recommend getting it that close to the action.

[Evaar]

Something else that's often overlooked is that although the sprite can't use its action to attack, it CAN still use its action to become invisible again after you use your bonus action to make it attack, effectively giving it advantage on the first attack you order it to make each round. Your familiar might or might not even be able to hold its action to become invisible again immediately after you order it to attack (instead of having to wait for its turn to come around in the initiative order), depending on if your DM rules that using your bonus action to command your familiar to attack consumes your familiar's reaction like sacrificing one of your attacks from the Attack action does.

My reading is the sprite takes the attack action on its turn. If it took the Sprite's reaction and was used immediately, I expect the invocation would explicitly say that. Instead the language is more similar to what we see in the Battle Smith or Beast Master (but slightly different because it's presented in the invocation rather than as part of the feature). But I do agree the language could be clearer, and I had the same confusion when I first read it.


Sprites combo especially well with putrid undead from the Summon Undead spell, which can force poisoned enemies to make a save vs. paralysis on each hit.

Good find!


(as far as I'm aware, Warlocks can't upcast spells into their Mystic Arcanum slots).

Correct.


The sprite itself can also theoretically get in on that Aura of Hate action if you can make it count as a fiend (Find Familiar says that the familiar "is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast"; I don't know how that clause would interact with a familiar whose form wouldn't normally count as a beast), although I wouldn't recommend getting it that close to the action.

Eh, technically no. Aura of Hate works on melee weapon damage rolls. Maybe your DM would let you give it a dagger, but the shortbow doesn't qualify. You could do this with an Imp if you really wanted to, but as you point out you don't want any familiar that close to the action at that level.

[ATHATH]

My reading is the sprite takes the attack action on its turn. If it took the Sprite's reaction and was used immediately, I expect the invocation would explicitly say that. Instead the language is more similar to what we see in the Battle Smith or Beast Master (but slightly different because it's presented in the invocation rather than as part of the feature). But I do agree the language could be clearer, and I had the same confusion when I first read it.
Hm, maybe this is worth asking Sage Advice over.


Eh, technically no. Aura of Hate works on melee weapon damage rolls. Maybe your DM would let you give it a dagger, but the shortbow doesn't qualify. You could do this with an Imp if you really wanted to, but as you point out you don't want any familiar that close to the action at that level.
Ah, forgot about that bit. Nice catch.

[Chaosmancer]

I finally took this with my sprite, (I was moving things around and I really want her to have some more combat ability, because she has been an invaluable scout and source of knowledge). I've altered the invocation a little bit, but first some other things to talk about.

The familiar's turn is weird, and the rules are weird here. So, the familiar takes its own turn, according to the spell. It is supposed to have its own initiative and its own action and bonus action. The Pact of the Chain allows you to forgo your attack action (or one of your attacks if you somehow have multiple) to allow your familiar to take the attack action. Investment allows you to have your familiar take the attack action as a bonus action.

At no point is any of this called out as a reaction, so the Sprite can take their turn, and turn invisible, then you can command them to attack on your turn.


Now, none of this is going to apply at my table, because to keep our lives simpler, we've always just had the familiar take their turn simultaneously with the warlock, and Pact of the chain just let them attack. So, since the bonus action attack wasn't being used we did two other things. 1) A bonus to hit and damage equal to Cha Mod. 2) A bonus to hp equal to Cha plus level.

That second one, combined with Inspiring Leader gives my familiar a respectable 28 effective hp. However, the poison save is something I have talked to the DM about and we may end up nerfing it if it becomes too much. It has the potential to be disruptively powerful

[Tanarii]

Something to remember is that the way the poison ability is worded, the target has to roll a 5 or less to fall asleep. The DC doesn't matter; it's not failing the DC by 5 or more, it's rolling 5 or less regardless of the DC. Even without any bonus to the save, that's only going to happen 25% of the time. A lot of monsters have really good CON as well, making it impossible to roll a 5 or lower.Rolling a 5 or lower will always be a 25% chance. But the Sprite's ability says the result must be a 5 or lower, so it's as you say.

I was confused at first, then realized you and the OP aren't stating the feature as written.

[prototype00]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

[diplomancer]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

If your DM rules that the attack happens on your turn, as a result of your bonus action, leaving the sprite's turn free, he can use his action to become invisible, thus attacking with advantage; that helps the accuracy remain relevant until higher levels.

[Sherlockpwns]

As mentioned in the other Warlock thread, my main concern is the accuracy of the Sprite. That Arrow is only ever going to be a +6 all the way up to T4 (some fair number of my games are in T3) with absolutely nothing boosting it and by the end of T2, +6 is really not going to cut it to hit anything. Like you will be hitting (I predict) around 25% - 30% of the time, is that enough for a whole invocation?

On the other hand, your DC is going up, maybe that makes up for it?

A few things: DM dependent, but you can theoretically equip the sprite with a magic bow.

This ability shines brightest when you get it at level 5 and is certainly accurate enough trough level 11. So like many abilities it has a power curve. After that you’ll find poison immune and resistance more and the accuracy will drop. At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.

As previously stated summon undead becomes the bread and butter here, which also is going to start to drop off at t3.

So yeah, this combo is great (I wrote a thread about it already), but it’s similar to the moon Druid at t1. At t2 against poisonable enemies it is going to wreck house. At t3 you’ll use it less. If you ever reach t4 you’d use it rarely if ever. But that’s ok, it’s the origin of your story not the end point.

[diplomancer]

A few things: DM dependent, but you can theoretically equip the sprite with a magic bow.

This ability shines brightest when you get it at level 5 and is certainly accurate enough trough level 11. So like many abilities it has a power curve. After that you’ll find poison immune and resistance more and the accuracy will drop. At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.

It's not worth it to give up your one attack in a turn to have advantage on that same one attack on your next turn; your chances of hitting once are exactly the same (with the disadvantage that you will always be hitting your enemy later rather than sooner, and that's usually pretty bad), and your chances of hitting twice go from "low" to "zero". Of course, being invisible does have defensive advantages, but it's a rare combat that the sprite can't get full cover in between shooting, considering his size.


As previously stated summon undead becomes the bread and butter here, which also is going to start to drop off at t3.

So yeah, this combo is great (I wrote a thread about it already), but it’s similar to the moon Druid at t1. At t2 against poisonable enemies it is going to wreck house. At t3 you’ll use it less. If you ever reach t4 you’d use it rarely if ever. But that’s ok, it’s the origin of your story not the end point.

The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.

[javianhalt]

The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.
This!
The versatility with invocations allows you to build yourself through the levels instead of being locked into something or having to plan ahead too many levels.

[diplomancer]

This!
The versatility with invocations allows you to build yourself through the levels instead of being locked into something or having to plan ahead too many levels.

It's why I believe the over-emphasis on static"builds" over dynamic "characters" tends to short-sell the Warlock compared to other classes.

[follacchioso]

That's right, although it is such a good invocation that I would keep it anyway, even in tier 4. At that point you are probably using the familiar mainly for spying and gathering information, while you eat crisps in your lair on the other side of the plane, and the ability to knock out a low CR minion or guard is always useful.

[Greywander]

Something to remember is that thanks to Bounded Accuracy weak enemies are always just as weak. Any enemy your familiar could take on at low to mid levels they will still be able to take on at higher levels. The only reason the familiar becomes less useful is because you're facing tougher monsters, but you're never exclusively facing tough monsters. Things like goblins are viable enemies all the way to tier 4, you just need to be fighting more of them for them to pose a threat to the party. I suppose it does become true that the familiar's help is less needed as your warlock (and the rest of the party) becomes stronger and can more easily take on such enemies without the familiar's help.

[Sherlockpwns]

It's not worth it to give up your one attack in a turn to have advantage on that same one attack on your next turn; your chances of hitting once are exactly the same (with the disadvantage that you will always be hitting your enemy later rather than sooner, and that's usually pretty bad), and your chances of hitting twice go from "low" to "zero". Of course, being invisible does have defensive advantages, but it's a rare combat that the sprite can't get full cover in between shooting, considering his size.



The advantage that an invocation (or a spell) has over a subclass feature is that you can swap it out at any level up; so get Investment of the Chain Master early, and drop it when enemies AC start to get too high.

You are never giving up your action for this. At most it’s your bonus action. The advantage is that it frees up your bonus action every other turn, but you are correct it’s not useful if you have no bonus actions to do.

[diplomancer]

You are never giving up your action for this. At most it’s your bonus action. The advantage is that it frees up your bonus action every other turn, but you are correct it’s not useful if you have no bonus actions to do.

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

[MaxWilson]

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

[prototype00]

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

I think he is referring to the following scenarios:

1. Warlock with Investment of the chain master gets Sprite to take the attack action every round as a bonus action.

Vs

2. Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master gets Sprite to attack as a bonus action, Sprite takes the next round to go invisible. Then attacks against next round.

[MaxWilson]

I think he is referring to the following scenarios:

1. Warlock with Investment of the chain master gets Sprite to take the attack action every round as a bonus action.

Vs

2. Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master gets Sprite to attack as a bonus action, Sprite takes the next round to go invisible. Then attacks against next round.

Oh, so this is about examining whether the bonus action attack also costs the Sprite its action, preventing it from turning invisible? You might be right.

[diplomancer]

Can you clarify what scenario you're thinking of that gives the sprite the option to "keep attacking" twice per round? Is this a hypothetical about if the warlock isn't physically present?

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

The post I was responding to also seems to assume this interpretation, specially this part:

At worst this means you only attack with poison every OTHER turn. Shoot, go invis next turn, shoot again the following turn. +6 with adv is plenty to carry you in t3.
I was pointing out that this is not an effective use of the Sprite's action (i.e, atacking once every other turn, with Advantage from being invisible) and that it's more effective to attack once every turn, without bothering on becoming invisible (Here of course I'm ignoring the defensive advantages of invisibility, which I believe are smaller for a tiny flying creature with a ranged attack that can easily find full cover at the end of most of its rounds; I'm just comparing the offensive capability of the two options, attack-attack-attack-attack-etc vs attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible-etc). I was not suggesting that the sprite would be attacking twice, either on the same turn or on the same round.

Of course, if the ability is interpreted that the Sprite attacks immediately when you use your bonus action, "for free", then, since it CAN'T attack on its own turn, it could indeed then turn invisible with its action and attack with advantage on your next bonus action. But then it would not be attacking only every other turn, which was suggested by the post I was responding to.

Edit: I just realized that there IS a situation where the attack-turn invisible-attack again might be the recommended course of action; when the Warlock has another decent use of his Bonus Action; for the Sprite to turn invisible does not cost the Warlock's bonus action, so, though it is, in abstract, less efficient than just attacking, there may be situations where it would work better (and some situations where it would be almost mandatory, like a Celestial Warlock using Healing Light as his Bonus Action to heal a fallen Ally).

[follacchioso]

I was talking about the sprite; it's better for the sprite to keep attacking than to attack-turn invisible-attack-turn invisible, etc

By RAW familiars cannot take the Attack action. A warlock with Chain Pact can forgo their Attack action to let the familiar attack instead. With the Investment invocation, the warlock can instead use a Bonus Action instead of that. Otherwise the familiar does not attack on their turn.

From the Find Familiar spell:


Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.

From Pact of the Chain:

Pact of the Chain
You learn the find familiar spell, it doesn't count against your number of known spells, and you can cast it as a ritual. Your familiar can take on a more powerful form, and when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

[prototype00]

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.

I veer more towards the conservative interpretation which is good T1-T2 and heck T3-T4 you have a 25% chance to get 21 or higher and slam someone with a DC 23 poisoned so that isn’t nothing.

[diplomancer]

By RAW familiars cannot take the Attack action. A warlock with Chain Pact can forgo their Attack action to let the familiar attack instead. With the Investment invocation, the warlock can instead use a Bonus Action instead of that. Otherwise the familiar does not attack on their turn.

From the Find Familiar spell:


Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.

From Pact of the Chain:

Pact of the Chain
You learn the find familiar spell, it doesn't count against your number of known spells, and you can cast it as a ritual. Your familiar can take on a more powerful form, and when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?

IF the attack happens the moment you take your bonus action (whether for free or at the cost of the familiar's reaction), then yes, Familiar could use its own Action to turn invisible and attack again, with advantage, on the following turn when you take the Bonus Action again. In fact, if it's entirely for free and it goes before you on initiative, it could use all its actions in combat to ready an action to become invisible right after it attacks at your command, functionally being invisible for the entire combat.


I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.

I veer more towards the conservative interpretation which is good T1-T2 and heck T3-T4 you have a 25% chance to get 21 or higher and slam someone with a DC 23 poisoned so that isn’t nothing.

I agree, that's my interpretation as well, and the one I'm assuming in this thread. I just make a note that other people interpret it differently (and, in fact, on my first read of the ability that's how I interpreted it also, it was only upon later reflection that I, somewhat grudgingly, accepted that the intent is to have the familiar use its own action to attack after you use your bonus action).

The fact that the ability says "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.", and NOT "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to attack" is a strong indication that this is the intended meaning

[MaxWilson]

I believe there is an ambiguity in the rules about Investment of the Chain Master, whether the attack happens when you take the bonus action, "for free" (from the Sprite's perspective), or whether, after you take the bonus action, the sprite can use its own action to attack on its own turn. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the second interpretation is the right one.

*snip* I was pointing out that this is not an effective use of the Sprite's action (i.e, atacking once every other turn, with Advantage from being invisible) and that it's more effective to attack once every turn, without bothering on becoming invisible

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, I understand now what you're saying.

My experience with Sprite familiars is that between the +6 to hit and the Con save, inflicting Poisoned isn't reliable against nontrivial monsters. I think it winds up causing Poisoned around 1 round in 3, against mid-CR monsters. This isn't terrible for a bonus action but it's also not fantastic for an invocation that competes with other invocations like Tomb of Levistus and Voice of the Chain Master. Obviously the ability ti make your familiar attack as a bonus action gets a lot better if the familiar has a stronger attack, e.g. Sprite familiar + Investment of the Chain Master + Hideous Gnawing (Cthulhu 5e pg 60, 3d6 extra piercing damage if advantage or adjacent ally) + Frightful Familiar (ibid, your bonus action to trigger 1/short rest Fear against creatures of familiar's choice within 60' that are aware of it, until start of its next turn, Wis save to negate) + Sanity Threatening Familiar (ibid, creatures who see it attack take 4d6 psychic damage and are stunned until start of its next turn, Int save to take half damage and be unable to see the familiar until it's next turn instead of being stunned). If you go all in on enhancing your familiar + Eldritch Blast it could be a pretty powerful bonus action... but that's a lot of eggs in one basket.

From my experience with it, I liked it, but I don't think it makes my top 5 list of most desired invocations. There are too many other ways to impose disadvantage more reliably, e.g. summoning Constrictor Snakes.

But if your DM runs things such that the Sprite can get advantage every round then maybe that would make it worth it.

[diplomancer]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, I understand now what you're saying.

*snip*

From my experience with it, I liked it, but I don't think it makes my top 5 list of most desired invocations. There are too many other ways to impose disadvantage more reliably, e.g. summoning Constrictor Snakes.

But if your DM runs things such that the Sprite can get advantage every round then maybe that would make it worth it.

I'd say the main advantage is the lack of concentration; so, naturally, using your concentration summoning Constrictor Snakes should be more powerful.

[Tanarii]

I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?But if the sprite uses its action when the warlock uses a bonus action, the point being made is that in this particular case there is a point to alternating attacks with invisibility to gain advantage. The warlock can use their bonus action for something on the off-turns,

[prototype00]

I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).

[RogueJK]

I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).

Telekinetic is a fantastic choice for just about any non-Chainlock, or even Chainlocks who don't have the Investment Invocation. It's a good choice for many casters, in fact. Most casters lack good options for frequent use of their Bonus Action, and even the ones that do have some (like Clerics and Druids, or Warlocks with Hex) have to expend limited resources on them. So picking up something useful to do with your Bonus Action from range that doesn't cost resources is great. The fact that it's also a half-feat for your primary casting stat, and gets you a useful cantrip, is even better.

Maddening Hex Invocation is another option for weaponizing your Warlock's Bonus Action, provided the target is currently under the influence of your Hex, Hexblade's Curse, or similar.

Relentless Hex Invocation is similar to Maddening, trading out the damage against the cursed target for increased mobility through Bonus Action teleportation. (This can be hard to pull off in practice though, since the BA to move your Hex to a new target competes with the BA needed to teleport close to that new target.)

Shield Master's Bonus Action Shove is an option for a melee Warlock with Shield proficiency, like a Hexblade or a Warlock with a Fighter/Cleric dip. You just need a high enough STR/Athletics bonus to capitalize on it. Unlike Telekinetic, it can be used not only to shove enemies to move them, but also to shove them prone.

Polearm Master is an option for a Sword Pact Warlock.

Goblin Warlocks can Disengage or Hide with their Bonus Actions.

[diplomancer]

I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is). Telekinetic seems interesting (and is a half feat for mental stats) if you're playing a spiked growth Genie-Lock (and for repositioning squishy party members in melee).

Celestial Warlocks have Healing Light; it's better than Healing Word to bring back fallen Allies, but most of the time you are only really using them on turns where you have a fallen ally (or if you yourself are low on hit points, specially if you have the Gift of the Ever Living Ones invocation).

[Evaar]

Fathomless Warlock uses a bonus action to attack with its tentacle and a bonus action to summon it. You can use it proficiency/day, so at higher levels your bonus action will be spoken for most of the time.

[Chaosmancer]

I know this; what still has not been determined is WHAT happens when you take the Bonus Action? Does the Familiar attack immediately or on its own turn, using its own action? (this is how an Artificer's pet works, IIRC) )If immediately, does it use its reaction, or is it for free?

IF the attack happens the moment you take your bonus action (whether for free or at the cost of the familiar's reaction), then yes, Familiar could use its own Action to turn invisible and attack again, with advantage, on the following turn when you take the Bonus Action again. In fact, if it's entirely for free and it goes before you on initiative, it could use all its actions in combat to ready an action to become invisible right after it attacks at your command, functionally being invisible for the entire combat.



I agree, that's my interpretation as well, and the one I'm assuming in this thread. I just make a note that other people interpret it differently (and, in fact, on my first read of the ability that's how I interpreted it also, it was only upon later reflection that I, somewhat grudgingly, accepted that the intent is to have the familiar use its own action to attack after you use your bonus action).

The fact that the ability says "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.", and NOT "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to attack" is a strong indication that this is the intended meaning



My interpretation is definitely different. I think the intent is that familiar attacks when the Warlock uses their action.

Familiars have their own turn, with their own action, and with just Pact of the Chain the Warlock can "forgo one attack" to let the familiar attack with its reaction.

This is necessary for a lot of logistical reasons. If the warlock simply commanded the attack, then the sprite or the warlock were knocked unconscious, then the action is wasted. And the sprite may go before them, so you make a command, that then has to be remembered and carried out after every single turn on the board? Makes no sense.

It makes far more sense that Investment is a boost, changing it from being an action (because a chain pact warlock only has one attack, so in practical terms it was taking an action originally) to a bonus action, and still using the reaction.

[Evaar]

My interpretation is definitely different. I think the intent is that familiar attacks when the Warlock uses their action.

Familiars have their own turn, with their own action, and with just Pact of the Chain the Warlock can "forgo one attack" to let the familiar attack with its reaction.

This is necessary for a lot of logistical reasons. If the warlock simply commanded the attack, then the sprite or the warlock were knocked unconscious, then the action is wasted. And the sprite may go before them, so you make a command, that then has to be remembered and carried out after every single turn on the board? Makes no sense.

It makes far more sense that Investment is a boost, changing it from being an action (because a chain pact warlock only has one attack, so in practical terms it was taking an action originally) to a bonus action, and still using the reaction.

I get where you're coming from, but I feel that if the intent was for the familiar to use its reaction then it would explicitly say so in the invocation. It doesn't say that. Instead it says you command it to take the Attack action. It can only do that on its turn, otherwise it would cost its reaction.

I am aware that Pact of the Chain has language for granting the familiar a reaction by the Warlock taking their own Attack action, but I don't think they would rely on awareness of that language to define the invocation correctly. Instead they would follow the "It does what it says, not anything it doesn't say" style, which would expect us to recognize that a creature can only take the Attack action on its turn.

Note that the invocation explicitly says you command the familiar to take "the Attack action." Not like the language in the Pact of the Chain that says "use its reaction to make one attack of its own." The Attack action is specifically an action, not a reaction, and it is not synonymous with "making an attack."

It's also not disqualifying that the action would be wasted if the familiar was knocked unconscious before its turn rolled around. Look at the Command spell. If you Command a target to Grovel, it falls prone on its turn and then ends its turn... unless your party kills it first, in which case your spell and the action you used to cast it were wasted. I don't actually see any clause in the Find Familiar or Pact of the Chain that would cause the familiar to vanish if the Warlock is knocked unconscious, so as far as I can see it would still take the Attack action on its turn if the Warlock got knocked unconscious between the bonus action to command and the familiar's actual turn.

[Chaosmancer]

I get where you're coming from, but I feel that if the intent was for the familiar to use its reaction then it would explicitly say so in the invocation. It doesn't say that. Instead it says you command it to take the Attack action. It can only do that on its turn, otherwise it would cost its reaction.

I am aware that Pact of the Chain has language for granting the familiar a reaction by the Warlock taking their own Attack action, but I don't think they would rely on awareness of that language to define the invocation correctly. Instead they would follow the "It does what it says, not anything it doesn't say" style, which would expect us to recognize that a creature can only take the Attack action on its turn.

Note that the invocation explicitly says you command the familiar to take "the Attack action." Not like the language in the Pact of the Chain that says "use its reaction to make one attack of its own." The Attack action is specifically an action, not a reaction, and it is not synonymous with "making an attack."

It's also not disqualifying that the action would be wasted if the familiar was knocked unconscious before its turn rolled around. Look at the Command spell. If you Command a target to Grovel, it falls prone on its turn and then ends its turn... unless your party kills it first, in which case your spell and the action you used to cast it were wasted. I don't actually see any clause in the Find Familiar or Pact of the Chain that would cause the familiar to vanish if the Warlock is knocked unconscious, so as far as I can see it would still take the Attack action on its turn if the Warlock got knocked unconscious between the bonus action to command and the familiar's actual turn.


I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?

I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.

[diplomancer]

I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?

Because designers thought it would be too powerful to do so, probably. The invocation is good enough at that cost, so I suppose they were right. And it's not like a bonus action is a HUGE cost; as noted above, most Warlocks don't have a reliable use of their bonus actions, this invocation gives one. On the other hand, if you DO have a good reliable use of the bonus action (see the Fathomless Warlock, for instance) the invocation loses a lot of it's value, and it would do so whether the familiar attacked on its own turn or immediately.


I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.

Neither Flinds nor Orc Warchiefs allow that.

I'd say the difference in phrasing:

"As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action."
Vs.


"when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction."

Makes the RAW pretty clear.

I also just realized; the Familiar CAN attack twice in the same round, but at the considerable cost of your action, the familiar's reaction, your bonus action, and the familiar action. Still, there might be situations where that's useful, specially if for some reason you cannot take any action on the round that's more effective than another poison attempt.

[MaxWilson]

I also just realized; the Familiar CAN attack twice in the same round, but at the considerable cost of your action, the familiar's reaction, your bonus action, and the familiar action. Still, there might be situations where that's useful, specially if for some reason you cannot take any action on the round that's more effective than another poison attempt.

For example, if your familiar is far away from you and you're not in the fight at all. E.g. it's escorting an elemental to a remote fight while you take a short rest for more elementals.

[Evaar]

I see your logic, but... why not just say the Familiar can attack then? Why make it cost a bonus action on top of the invocation?

I'm thinking they copied the ranger without remembering that the Familiar isn't taking its turn on the same turn as you, which makes a big difference. And, there is absolutely nothing that says you can't take the attack action when it isn't your turn. You just normally can't take actions, but nothing would prevent an ability from granting an ally an out of turn action. The phrasing is a bit odd, but I believe things like flinds and such do allow for off-turn actions. Or Orc Warchiefs.

I don’t see anything in the Flind or Orc War Chief that does that. The Flind allows bites as a bonus action, or forces an enemy to make a melee weapon attack on its own turn. Nothing saying “Take the Attack action.”

Of course there’s no rule saying you specifically can’t take the Attack action outside of your turn. The rule is that you take actions on your turn.


On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.

Reactions and actions are two different things, which is why the Incapacitated condition says you can’t take “actions or reactions.” Reactions can happen outside your turn. Actions can’t. The Attack action is an action.

It doesn’t allow you to just have the familiar attack without costing a bonus action because that’s how it works for all the other pet based classes, like the Beast Master or the Battle Smith. Certain classes get access to more situational pets like the Hexblade’s Accursed Specter that requires only a verbal command (costing no action) but in general permanent pets cost part of the character’s action economy to utilize.

I think I’ve made my case pretty conclusively. If you can find me an example of something causing an Attack action (not just “an attack”) outside of a creature’s turn, we can revisit.

[Greywander]

Interesting, I never noticed this before (probably because attacking with a familiar isn't usually a very solid strategy). If I understand correct, you can use an action (which I suppose counts as you taking the Attack action, e.g. if you have feats like Shield Master or PAM; does it use just one of your attacks if you have more than one, or does it use all of them?) in order to have your familiar attack as a reaction (so presumably the attack is right away). With the Investment invocation, you can use a bonus action to command your familiar to take the Attack action, in which case they probably don't do so until their turn.

So from this is seems like you could spend an action to make your familiar attack, then have them use their action to turn invisible on their turn. If you have the Investment invocation, then you could just have them attack twice, once as a reaction and once as an action. Of course, you're probably using your action for Eldritch Blast, unless you're having your familiar scout ahead.

[diplomancer]

For example, if your familiar is far away from you and you're not in the fight at all. E.g. it's escorting an elemental to a remote fight while you take a short rest for more elementals.

Hmm, a few things to check with your DM about this particular circumstance:

1- are you using Voice of the Chain Master to know what's going on? I understand the RAW is ambiguous about whether it just extends the range of the communication and the sense sharing, or whether it also gets rid of the action cost of the sense sharing. If your DM interprets it as you still having to use your action every round to see through your familiar's eyes, you wouldn't be able to take the attack action. On the other hand, this same DM might let your familiar say "we are under attack" telepathically and you'd start taking the attack action even without knowing anything about what's going on at the battle site. But it does feel weird to me to "be in initiative order" under those circumstances.

2- does taking the Attack action interrupt your short rest, even if, in fact YOU are not doing anything except taking the abstract Attack action? A DM might rule that being involved in combat, even from a distance, would interrupt the short rest. Can you read a book while taking the Attack action every turn? :)

[Evaar]

Interesting, I never noticed this before (probably because attacking with a familiar isn't usually a very solid strategy). If I understand correct, you can use an action (which I suppose counts as you taking the Attack action, e.g. if you have feats like Shield Master or PAM; does it use just one of your attacks if you have more than one, or does it use all of them?) in order to have your familiar attack as a reaction (so presumably the attack is right away).

Not quite. You take the Attack action. You can forgo one of the attacks that action would give you in order to cause your familiar to attack as a reaction.

So if you’re a straight class Warlock, that’s your whole Attack action. If you’re a Warlock 3/Fighter 5, you would still make one attack as part of the Attack action.

By my reading you definitely can use the Shield Master bonus action, as that only requires that you take the Attack action. Which you did.

PAM is trickier because it says you have to take the Attack action and only attack with a qualifying weapon. So if you take the attack action and never actually make an attack roll with a qualifying weapon, I don’t think that counts. If you had Extra Attack from a multiclass and do make an attack with a qualifying weapon, I would probably count it... because you aren’t wielding your familiar; you forwent one of your attacks in order to allow it to make an attack.

But this is pretty unlikely to come up because what even is this build where you use a Polearm and go Chain Pact and want your familiar to make attacks instead of you?

[javianhalt]

I think it’s going to be a bit of a hard sell to DMs to say that after the sprite takes it’s “attack action” according to Investment that it still has yet another action to take on the same turn to go invisible.
I don't see why that is a problem. The cost for the familiar's attack is your action (or bonus action) PERIOD
Remember that Find familiar says the familiar has his own turn and initiative, so commanding him to attack on the warlock's turn shouldn't interfere with the familiar's turn.


EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)

[Tanarii]

I wonder whats a good bonus action use for a Warlock (aside from spells, that is).
Moving Hex to a new target is the traditional one, but if you're making Sprite attacks instead of your own attacks, that becomes less of a thing.



EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)Taking the Attack Action (on any other action) outside your turn has no impact on your turns actions. If that's how the feature words the ability of the Sprite to attack with your bonus action, it definitely still gets its own full turn as well. It would have to explicitly call out that it takes the Attack Action on its turn, or that it takes the Attack Action (implied now), but loses its action on its turn.

[Evaar]

Taking the Attack Action (on any other action) outside your turn has no impact on your turns actions. If that's how the feature words the ability of the Sprite to attack with your bonus action, it definitely still gets its own full turn as well. It would have to explicitly call out that it takes the Attack Action on its turn, or that it takes the Attack Action (implied now), but loses its action on its turn.

Actions, such as the Attack action, are different things from reactions or non-actions. Making an attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. Actions are things you do on your turn.

If you don’t believe that is accurate, please cite an example of an action - such as Dodge, Attack, Cast A Spell, etc - that you use outside your turn and which doesn’t have exception language built into the effect (i.e. if it says “the creature immediately takes the Dodge action, no action required” or something like that).


EDIT: I read the other posts and kinda understand now where the confusion is coming from ("taking an attack action" vs "making an attack"). I still think that it makes no logical sense to forgo both your bonus action and the familiar's turn to make an attack, BUT now I'm not convinced my original interpretation is RAW (it's barely even RAI for that matter)

I don't see why that's confusing. It works the same way as the Battle Smith Artificer's Steel Defender, or the Beast Master Ranger's updated pet options. You take a bonus action to command it, and then the pet takes the resulting action on its turn. The only differences are 1) the familiar has a different initiative and 2) the familiar could already take non-Dodge actions on its turn because it was specific to Pact of the Chain that you could have it attack at all in the first place, and it was before they had any standardized approach to how they wanted pets to work.

If you don't think the familiar's attack action is worth both your bonus action and the familiar's action, then don't take the invocation. However, the Sprite's attack action (as boosted by Investment) is much more valuable than the Steel Defender's or the Beast of the Land's, for example. To my mind it's worth both the action economy requirement and the invocation to access.

[Tanarii]

Actions, such as the Attack action, are different things from reactions or non-actions. Making an attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. Actions are things you do on your turn.

If you don’t believe that is accurate, please cite an example of an action - such as Dodge, Attack, Cast A Spell, etc - that you use outside your turn and which doesn’t have exception language built into the effect (i.e. if it says “the creature immediately takes the Dodge action, no action required” or something like that).That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn. :smallamused:

[Evaar]

That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn. :smallamused:

I did above already.


On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.

Or from "Actions in Combat"


When you take an action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.

Or from "Reactions"


A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's.

So we have definitions of Actions and they're only mentioned as occurring on your turn. And we have a definition of Reactions, specifying it can happen on someone else's turn. So unless you have something that contradicts that, the clear conclusion is actions are things you do on your turn, and reactions are the exception that proves that rule.

[Tanarii]

Those say on your turn, you can take actions. Not that you can only take actions on your turn. There's no general rule in the latter format.

So if something gives you an action out of turn, you're fine and it doesn't have to specify it doesn't use your on turn action.

[ATHATH]

We really need a Sage Advice or an errata for this...

Sadly, I don't have a Twitter account, so I can't ask the designers this question myself.

[MaxWilson]

I did above already.

Or from "Actions in Combat"

Or from "Reactions"

So we have definitions of Actions and they're only mentioned as occurring on your turn. And we have a definition of Reactions, specifying it can happen on someone else's turn. So unless you have something that contradicts that, the clear conclusion is actions are things you do on your turn, and reactions are the exception that proves that rule.

Isn't that a bit like arguing that you can only use an action (e.g. cast a spell, Dodge, ready an action) after initiative is rolled? Clearly you can cast a spell outside of combat; Dodging and readying actions are more controversial but there's no conceptual reason why you couldn't.

[Valmark]

I'd like to point out that the Investment invocation doesn't say that the familiar takes the Attack action when you use your bonus action.

It says that you tell them to do so. Never gives it the chance of attacking out of turn (like Evaar said this is the same wording as the Steel Defender feature).

[diplomancer]

That is not correct. On your turn, you can take an action. Nothing says actions are only things you can take on your turn. If some other ability gives you the ability to take an action outside your turn (without using your reaction), there's no limitation that says you cannot.

If you don't believe that to be accurate, please cite where in the PHB it says that actions can only occur on your turn. :smallamused:

I believe the only example of Actions taken in combat outside one's turn which are not reactions are Legendary Actions. So, are you claiming that this invocation turns your Familiar into a Legendary Creature? :p

[Evaar]

Isn't that a bit like arguing that you can only use an action (e.g. cast a spell, Dodge, ready an action) after initiative is rolled? Clearly you can cast a spell outside of combat; Dodging and readying actions are more controversial but there's no conceptual reason why you couldn't.

No, because turns are specific to combat. See "The Order Of Combat" in the PHB.

When there is no combat, you instead refer to the "How To Play" section. You just say what you want to do and the DM decides what happens.

If someone could get around to citing an actual example of taking an action outside of your turn in combat that would be great. Otherwise, I again assert that reactions are the exception that proves the rule (in the original meaning of that phrase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule#Proving_the_existen ce_of_the_rule)).

If anyone wants to make an actual cited argument to the contrary rather than just asserting it without any evidence or example, I'd be happy to hear it.

EDIT

Because I'm obsessing at this point, here's a relevant Crawford tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1151608428139122688?s=20):

Remember that you can take a bonus action only on your own turn.

Here's the language from the "Bonus Actions" section of "The Order Of Combat":

Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action.

Here again is the language from the "Your Turn" section of "The Order Of Combat":

On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action.

Nothing in the Bonus Action language explicitly says you can ONLY take a bonus action on your turn, just that some abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. Nothing in the Your Turn section explicitly says you can ONLY take an action on your turn, just that on your turn you can take one action.

And yet, you can only take a bonus action on your turn. Are we good? Is this conclusive enough yet?

[Chaosmancer]

I can't find anything that explicitly says that actions can only happen on your turn. I also can't find anything that grants an action when it isn't your turn...except maybe the samurai? They have Strength Before Death which uses your reaction to grant you a full turn, but that doesn't prove anything since it is basically just adding a new turn to the initiative count.

Personally, I don't see any reason to have a familiar take a turn separate from you anyways, which neatly solves the problem. And I'd be a bit miffed with using my bonus action to declare an attack, then potentially having nothing happen because my familiar doesn't get a turn or gets taken out.

[Tanarii]

If anyone wants to make an actual cited argument to the contrary rather than just asserting it without any evidence or example, I'd be happy to hear it.

The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.

[Evaar]

The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.

It absolutely doesn't.

I even linked Crawford above stating you can only take a bonus action on your turn. Is there some reason an action should be held to a different standard?

[Sigreid]

I just skimmed the post, but I didn't see another point on the familiar covered. It isn't what it is. You can re-summon your familiar and all of a sudden you have which ever of the familiars you want at this time. It's an imp today because your running Descent. Could be a sprite tomorrow or a quasit or whatever. What your familiar is isn't a choose once, stuck forever deal.

[Valmark]

The burden of the proof so far remains on you. What you've cited so far shows my position to be correct.
Except you didn't support your position with anything while Evaar brought examples for their position both from ruled and other features.

I just skimmed the post, but I didn't see another point on the familiar covered. It isn't what it is. You can re-summon your familiar and all of a sudden you have which ever of the familiars you want at this time. It's an imp today because your running Descent. Could be a sprite tomorrow or a quasit or whatever. What your familiar is isn't a choose once, stuck forever deal.
The problem is that to change forms you need to spend a slot and money, while to simply dismiss/summon it you spend nothing.

[RogueJK]

The problem is that to change forms you need to spend a slot and money

Money, yes. It costs 10 gp in materials per casting. (Which can be a lot at very low levels, but isn't that burdensome once you get past the first few levels, provided your DM doesn't make those specific material components exceedingly hard to come by.)

However, you don't necessarily have to spend a slot, since Chainlocks and Wizards can cast Find Familiar as a Ritual.

[Valmark]

Money, yes. It costs 10 gp in materials a pop. (Which can be a lot at very low levels, but isn't that much once you get past the first few levels.)

However, you don't necessarily have to spend a slot, since Chainlocks and Wizards can cast Find Familiar as a Ritual.

Right! Somehow I forgot that one of the iconic ritual spells was a ritual spell xD thanks.

[Evaar]

I just skimmed the post, but I didn't see another point on the familiar covered. It isn't what it is. You can re-summon your familiar and all of a sudden you have which ever of the familiars you want at this time. It's an imp today because your running Descent. Could be a sprite tomorrow or a quasit or whatever. What your familiar is isn't a choose once, stuck forever deal.

Totally valid point. I just think folks tend to get attached to one form or another as part of character identity, but you are right.

[Sigreid]

Totally valid point. I just think folks tend to get attached to one form or another as part of character identity, but you are right.

Totally. Our chainlock things of her familiar as an imp. To her, that's what he is. Part of his identity.

On another comment, a chain lock can't cast rituals unless they take the ritual caster feat. So yes, it requires a slot. But it's a good slot on a prep day or if your imp does die.

[RogueJK]

On another comment, a chain lock can't cast rituals unless they take the ritual caster feat. So yes, it requires a slot. But it's a good slot on a prep day or if your imp does die.

From Pact of the Chain's description:

You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known.

When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite.

Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

[Christian]

OK, this seems to me to be a very clear instance of designer intent, between the wording of the spell and the invocation.


Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In Combat, it rolls its own Initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't Attack, but it can take other Actions as normal.


As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.

So, normally, you give whatever commands you want to the familiar on your turn (not an action), and the familiar spends its turn using its own action, movement, abilities etc. following those commands; with the limitation that the familiar can't use the attack action. When you have the invocation, you can use a bonus action on your turn to remove that limitation.

If you compare with the wording of the general Pact of the Chain ability:


Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one Attack of its own with its Reaction.

it's quite clear that if the developers had intended to grant an out-of-turn attack action to the familiar, they would have said so explicitly, either stating that it uses its reaction, or stating (to contrast with the pact boon) that the attack doesn't use its reaction. When they make a rule that gives an exception to an existing rule, they point to the portion of the rule that's being excepted, and the other portions are assumed to apply as normal. In this case, the rule being excepted is that the familiar, when acting on its turn, can't take the attack action. There's nothing in the text which states or implies that the general rule that a character or monster only acts on its turn in the initiative order is being excepted.

[Sigreid]

From Pact of the Chain's description:

You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known.

When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite.

Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.

Nice! Not playing warlocks I missed that.

[Greywander]

Yeah, I don't think chainlocks can normally cast Find Familiar using a spell slot. They have to do it as a ritual. Honestly, I wish they explored these kinds of things more. I'd like to see a spellcaster class built entirely around ritual casting, potentially including normally non-ritual spells that can be cast as rituals. It would be tricky to use in combat, but perhaps you could get around this by forgoing the normal concentration limits and/or extending spell durations so you can buff up at the start of the day. There's probably other things they could do to increase combat viability as well, but getting all your spells as rituals would be quite a nice out-of-combat utility boost, just look at how popular tomelock is.

As for attacking with the familiar, I don't believe you can normally take actions outside of your turn, except for reactions. Using one of your attacks calls out that the familiar uses its reaction to attack. Using a bonus action to command your familiar to attack doesn't say it uses a reaction, nor does it say it can attack without needing to use an action. Making an attacking without spending any actions is a pretty unusual thing, and definitely not normally allowed, so if the ability allows your familiar to do such a thing then it should say so, and it doesn't. In fact, it specifically says you command them to "take the Attack action", which is something it can only do on its turn. Again, if the ability were supposed to allow them to take actions out of turn then it should have said so.

Circling back around to the original topic, let's take a look at some of the things that makes each familiar unique.

The imp has immunity to fire and poison, allowing you to send them into dangerous situations such as a burning building or a mine filled with poison gas. Niche, to be sure, but you'll be glad to have it should it come up. The imp also has Devil's Sight, which is also pretty niche, but worth pointing out. The imp has the weakest poison ability, only dealing damage, but it has the best shapechanger forms, as rats, spiders, and ravens are both very common and rather innocuous (people won't be surprised to see them, and also will tend to ignore them).

Like the imp, the quasit has poison immunity, but only fire resistance. It can't fly, which is a pretty big hit, but it can turn into a bat. It's shapechanger forms aren't as good as the imp's, but it does include an aquatic form. It can inflict the poisoned condition for up to a minute, with a save every round. It also has a 1/day fear effect, which also offers a save every round. Now that I look at them, quasits are actually much better than I first thought.

The sprite has no shapechanging and no damage immunities, so that's a big hit to them. They have one of the few ways in 5e that you can learn someone's alignment, though the usefulness of that will vary wildly. What makes them most interesting is their ranged attack that can inflict the poisoned condition for up to 1 minute, with no saves after the first. On a result of 5 or less, the target even falls unconscious, but many monsters will have at least a +5 to CON saves, making this impossible.

The pseudodragon has no shapechanging, damage immunities, or invisibility, immediately setting them quite far back compared to other familiars. It makes up for this with hands down the best poison attack, inflicting the poisoned condition for up to 1 hour with no saves after the first. Unlike the sprite's poison, increasing the save DC also makes it more likely that you can knock the target out. I can't stress how potentially powerful this is; 1 hour of unconsciousness and/or the poisoned condition, with no further saves. It's limited telepathy and keen senses add a bit of utility to them as well.

To summarize, the imp and quasit are surprisingly interchangeable, with the imp having slightly better out-of-combat utility while the quasit has some better combat options. The sprite has the only ranged poison attack, allowing them to inflict the condition without getting into melee, and offers no saves after the first. The pseudodragon is crucially lacking invisibility, but has the strongest poison ability, lasting up to an hour with no saves and actually having a decent chance of knocking someone out.

[prototype00]

I’ll note that movement speed can be removed from the Familiar calculus as Investment gives all of them either 40ft flying or swimming speed (can you switch it up when you re-summon them I wonder?)

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I don't think chainlocks can normally cast Find Familiar using a spell slot. They have to do it as a ritual. Honestly, I wish they explored these kinds of things more. I'd like to see a spellcaster class built entirely around ritual casting, potentially including normally non-ritual spells that can be cast as rituals.

You might want to check out formula magic from the Cthulhu 5E book. (https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e-pdf/) It's skill-centric not class centric (and investing in Expertise for the relevant skills can indirectly drive you insane) but it emulates the feel of classic, trope-based ritual magic very nicely: formula backlash, special component types including time (equinoxes), place, and specific number of secondary casters, plus a metric ton of new spells in the book, many of which are formula magic spells. It even has a wizard subclass (Ritualist) which IIRC is oriented towards formula magic, although obviously Diviners have advantages there too (just as PHB enchanters have advantages at conjuration).

Plus it's just a fantastic book for high-level campaigns, full of extremely scary elder evils.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, I don't think chainlocks can normally cast Find Familiar using a spell slot. They have to do it as a ritual.

Nothing in Pact of the Chain's description states that they can only cast it as a Ritual:

"You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known."

In fact, it explicitly says that they "learn the Find Familiar spell". When you learn a spell, it becomes a Spell Known, castable with slots like other spells known. They just also gain the additional ability "and can cast it as a ritual", unlike other Warlock spells known which normally cannot be cast as rituals. The "and..." is additive, not restrictive.

Compare to something like the Totem Barbarian's Spirit Seeker ability, in which they "gain the ability to cast the Beast Sense and Speak With Animals spells, but only as rituals". They do not explicitly learn the spell, just gain the ability to cast it within the specific parameters that they can only cast those spells as Rituals. The "but only... is restrictive. (This means that even if they gain spell slots from multiclassing, they cannot use those slots to cast those spells, since they are not Spells Known and are only available as Rituals.)

Or compare to the various Warlock Invocations that grant the ability to cast to additional non-Warlock spells, like Sculptor of Flesh or Thief of Five Fates. Those Invocations specifically give you the ability to cast a spell within certain parameters (must spend a Warlock spell slot and only usable 1x/long rest), but they do not learn the spell and it therefore doesn't become a standard Spell Known castable with slots freely.

Also similar to Magic Initiate vs. Fey/Shadow Touched feats. MI grants the ability to cast a 1st level spell, but it does not become a Spell Known and is only castable within the specific restrictions of the feat wording (1x/long rest and only at 1st level). Whereas the other two feats specifically state that you learn the 1st and 2nd level spells, so they're also castable with slots as standard Spells Known (if you have spell slots), and are even upcastable with higher slots.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Yes, I went over that in the original post. The sleep effect is just a side benefit, we're mainly here for the poisoned condition.

I don't see why the imp is better at this point. Before Tasha's, sure, but at this point the Sprite provides unmatched combat ability and it's still an invisible scout. The imp is more resilient, but I'm not clear what that resilience really does for us if it's not otherwise threatening.

Also, I feel like this point isn't really sinking in - the poison has a duration of 1 minute with no follow up saves. Can anyone find another source of the poisoned condition that lasts for the entirety of combat that doesn't allow saves each turn? Or an equivalent effect like 1 minute blindness with no follow up saves?

Not sure if it was resolved, but so we're all clear, a warlock taking attack action and bonus action can make familiar attack once during the Warlock's turn and once during the familiar's turn. With that in mind:

Pseudodragon, with its blindsight, can freely attack under cover of darkness (moving without provoking AoO). Unlike the Sprite's poison, it lasts an hour with no repeat save. It Investment Invocation this save DC is now moved to your Spell DC, but key wording differentiates it from Sprite poison:

"If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the target falls unconscious for the same duration, or until it takes damage or another creature uses an action to shake it awake." That is a massive improvement and by level 4 it can be ~45% of hits will sleep a target.

If you can boost the PD's hp with Inspiring Leader, Chef treats, etc, the resistance can give it the durability to forego Darkness (or greater invis etc) and instead combine the PD with a Summoned Wretched Undead.

In this way you can force a target to make 4 save or suck saving throws a round. If it doesn't fall unconscious but does get poisoned, every attack made by the undead has a chance to paralyze.

[Evaar]

Pseudodragon, with its blindsight, can freely attack under cover of darkness (moving without provoking AoO).

Good catch! It would also get advantage on those attacks, and it has a fly speed of 60 feet to help it get into melee and get sufficiently far away. With a some support the scaly little guy does better than I thought. If you decided to take the Mark of Hospitality Halfling as your race, you'd get access to Aid and at level 9 could increase its hit points by 20. Also worth noting the Celestial Pact gains the ability to give 1/2WarlockLevel + Charisma THP to creatures at the end of rests, too, if Inspiring Leader isn't available/desired.

I still don't think it's worth sacrificing your own action to get an extra attack from the familiar, but maybe experience would prove me wrong on that.

[diplomancer]

Good catch! It would also get advantage on those attacks, and it has a fly speed of 60 feet to help it get into melee and get sufficiently far away. With a some support the scaly little guy does better than I thought. If you decided to take the Mark of Hospitality Halfling as your race, you'd get access to Aid and at level 9 could increase its hit points by 20.

I still don't think it's worth sacrificing your own action to get an extra attack from the familiar, but maybe experience would prove me wrong on that.

Usually, it's not; but sometimes you can't attack, even with Eldritch Blast, and your more mobile Familiar can.

[Evaar]

Usually, it's not; but sometimes you can't attack, even with Eldritch Blast, and your more mobile Familiar can.

Makes sense. If someone has obscured the whole battlefield, maybe the psuedodragon is your best chance at getting things done.

[Sherlockpwns]

Makes sense. If someone has obscured the whole battlefield, maybe the psuedodragon is your best chance at getting things done.

It actually works well with a character design I have been messing with focused around fog cloud as your main concentration spell (regardless of level). Basically, fog cloud prevents line of sight and grants big benefit to blindfighting characters (or enemies).

You could fly a pseudodragon into the fog, use it to both attack with its bonus action and use its reaction to cast touch spells. If that spell is shocking grasp (and it hits) you can effectively just move away too, further reducing the risk to the little guy.

Unfortunately there's not too many touch spells that are offensive in nature (Inflict Wounds & Bestow Curse (which you cant use at the same time as fog cloud until 5th level spells) are about all you get).

Still it is an interesting way to CC a huge area of a fight and keep yourself relatively safe (though my current primary character idea is more of a melee guy). A genie warlock now gets fog cloud, so you can bask in the glory that is a 100ft radius sphere of doom (gloom?)... until someone casts gust of wind. :D

That said, between the better base to-hit, ranged attack, and how easy it is to down a pseudodragon, I do think the sprite is the better all-around choice unless you know you'll be dealing with magical darkness or similarly blinding effects. Of course it dovetails perfectly into the Darkness warlock though.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It actually works well with a character design I have been messing with focused around fog cloud as your main concentration spell (regardless of level). Basically, fog cloud prevents line of sight and grants big benefit to blindfighting characters (or enemies).

You could fly a pseudodragon into the fog, use it to both attack with its bonus action and use its reaction to cast touch spells. If that spell is shocking grasp (and it hits) you can effectively just move away too, further reducing the risk to the little guy.

Unfortunately there's not too many touch spells that are offensive in nature (Inflict Wounds & Bestow Curse (which you cant use at the same time as fog cloud until 5th level spells) are about all you get).

Still it is an interesting way to CC a huge area of a fight and keep yourself relatively safe (though my current primary character idea is more of a melee guy). A genie warlock now gets fog cloud, so you can bask in the glory that is a 100ft radius sphere of doom (gloom?)... until someone casts gust of wind. :D

That said, between the better base to-hit, ranged attack, and how easy it is to down a pseudodragon, I do think the sprite is the better all-around choice unless you know you'll be dealing with magical darkness or similarly blinding effects. Of course it dovetails perfectly into the Darkness warlock though.

Neat! I never thought to use Fog Cloud, now I can make a character whose Patron is one of the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, summoning the mists and having a horror within consume them (since you can deal absurd damage with Inflict Wounds, Empower Spell and Grave Domain Divinity).

[Evaar]

You could fly a pseudodragon into the fog, use it to both attack with its bonus action and use its reaction to cast touch spells. If that spell is shocking grasp (and it hits) you can effectively just move away too, further reducing the risk to the little guy.

If it's in a fog cloud, the enemy can't see it and it already can fly away without provoking an opportunity attack.

Shocking Grasp would help if the enemy has blindsight, but then the fog cloud is pointless anyway.

[prototype00]

The main issue of the fog cloud from a character angle is that it screws the warlock casting it unless they have Blindsight (either via the Martial Initiate feat or a level in fighter).

I mean, it’s nice that the pet gets to flex, but you’re the one doing the real damage!

[MaxWilson]

IME it's best to get heavy obscurement from the party, for the party, e.g. warlock, enchanter, and moon druid cooperating on Summon Greater Demon + Conjure Animals + Pyrotechnics to get advantage and defensive benefits for the Pseudodragon, the wildshaped druid, a metric ton of Giant Poisonous Snakes, the warlock's Barlgura, any Tiny Servants the Enchanter precast, and to some extent the Enchanter himself if he invested in Alert. And the Enchanter still has his concentration free!

Look for party combos--they are there.