Trying to come up with a new Combat Maneuver method.

[SangoProduction]

CMD scales ridiculously quickly, at 2-3 CMD / CR. That basically means that CMs are pretty useless, outside of a maximized level 1 build.

And I was looking to assuage that light idiocy.

I was thinking to remake the system using Elephant in the Room, but also have it so that the appropriate CM feat (Powerful / Deft) also turns the combat maneuver check into a Reflex save, with DC = 10 + 1/2 BAB + (Str or Dex as appropriate). And remove the numerical +2 bonus from the Greater versions.

That grows at 1/2 BAB, which for a full BAB class is 1/2 level, and median reflex grows at 1/2 CR.

And now martials, if they spend a feat, have a legitimate pool of options in battle, which has a reasonable chance of success without requiring a build so hyper specialized that it's the only thing they can do that one thing.

What do you guys think of it? Does it make the Tripping area controller too reliable? Or is it a reasonable system?

[upho]

CMD scales ridiculously quickly, at 2-3 CMD / CR. That basically means that CMs are pretty useless, outside of a maximized level 1 build.While the PC CMB vs. monster CMD math is indeed wonky, I believe your conclusion is off. Even with only 1PP content, it's not difficult to put together a martial PC whose CM success chances vs. the average opponent of a CR = level increases substantially over levels, quite possibly to at least 95% vs. any 1PP opponent of any CR ever published with at the very least a couple of CMs before 20th level. In fact, CMs are the primary reason why 1PP martial PCs have a higher combat op ceiling than (non-cheese) casters.

I believe the two primary design issues with the numbers specifically are:

Monster CMB/D values are derivatives without design target values, which means the standard deviation is typically far greater than it is for any other comparable statistic relevant in combat.
There are few PC options which may grant bonuses great enough for reasonable success chances (and many of those options are unfortunately highly specific item combos which for most PCs become requirements in mid/high levels, such as the very large bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, and trip bonuses from a dueling (PSFG) (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) leveraging (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Leveraging) impact (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Impact) weapon).

But at the end, I don't think the numbers themselves are the main problem with CMs. Instead, I think the binary nature of CMB check results and the huge effectiveness/usability differences between the CMs and associated specific related options are.


And I was looking to assuage that light idiocy.

I was thinking to remake the system using Elephant in the Room, but also have it so that the appropriate CM feat (Powerful / Deft) also turns the combat maneuver check into a Reflex save, with DC = 10 + 1/2 BAB + (Str or Dex as appropriate). And remove the numerical +2 bonus from the Greater versions.

That grows at 1/2 BAB, which for a full BAB class is 1/2 level, and median reflex grows at 1/2 CR.

And now martials, if they spend a feat, have a legitimate pool of options in battle, which has a reasonable chance of success without requiring a build so hyper specialized that it's the only thing they can do that one thing.

What do you guys think of it? Does it make the Tripping area controller too reliable? Or is it a reasonable system?Well, do you believe it should be easier to bull rush the Tarrasque than say a level 20 halfling archer ranger? I think you'd also need a new CMD formula for this to work.

Outside of potential subjective verisimilitude issues, this change still requires quite a bit of work going through all related options and unfortunately doesn't really address the main problems. I don't mean to sound negative - I really do appreciate attempts to lessen the mechanical weirdness of CMs - but it's a very complex issue and there are no easy blanket fixes AFAIK.

[Silly Name]

Well, do you believe it should be easier to bull rush the Tarrasque than say a level 20 halfling archer ranger? I think you'd also need a new CMD formula for this to work.

Technically this is taken care by size rules for bull rush (and other maneuvers) even if you remove the size bonus to CMD, although there are a few ways to circumvent those limitations. Still, if a player wants to invest in being able to topple over Colossal creatures, I think it's a legitimate (and fun) playstyle.

[SangoProduction]

Well, do you believe it should be easier to bull rush the Tarrasque than say a level 20 halfling archer ranger? I think you'd also need a new CMD formula for this to work.

Outside of potential subjective verisimilitude issues, this change still requires quite a bit of work going through all related options and unfortunately doesn't really address the main problems. I don't mean to sound negative - I really do appreciate attempts to lessen the mechanical weirdness of CMs - but it's a very complex issue and there are no easy blanket fixes AFAIK.

To be fair, it's pretty hard to shove something that's not letting you touch it. Meanwhile the heroic fighter pushing back the big bad giant is a relatively common trope. But it is supposed to be a difficult feat.
But you're right. Probably should have the reflex save be optionally strength or dexterity based, because someone can just try and muscle through your attempts, not simply avoid it.
Size includes bonuses to strength, so it probably isn't correct to allow size to double dip in that respect. So add Strength possibility and remove size bonus. Seems like a decent fix for that.

Weapon enchants on the other hand.... Never had any of those come up, so never new they existed. But yeah. Probably should have that limited.