Two-weapon fighting, an oversight, please

[ElHugo]

So, I'm running a twf-warblade, and my question to the boardies here is as follows: what feats and other abilities concern themselves with TWF, and what sourcebooks are they in?
Between me and my friends, I have access to pretty much every 3.5 book out there, but not to dragon magazine.
Can you help me with a list of things my char could consider picking up if he had an infinite number of feats available to him, names and sourcebooks, and if OGL the content?
I have a DM who is willing to let himself be persuaded on all sorts of exotic houserules (such as feat merging, or extra training) if I provide a coherent argument, and I'd like to know what options are available to me

Thanks a lot !

[Azerian Kelimon]

There's TWDefense and Improved defense from CW, I think, and there's Perfect TWF from the Epic level's handbook. That's more or less it.

[KIDS]

TWF Pounce and TWF Rend from PHB2 are solid bones thrown to the TWF people but if you're a warblade you likely have those already as girallon windmill and pouncing charge or even wolf fang strike (yes it's that weak).

Classes aplenty, Dervish is very good but 10 levels, Tempest is so-so, both improve TWF and give more mobility.

I would recommend picking up Improved Buckler Defense instead of Two-Weapon Defense chain though, it's a greater, more easily applied benefit, for one feat instead of three! It's in C.Warrior.

p.s. C.Warrior also has Weapon Style feats which give you special abilities if you wield specific two weapons and have a whole lot of other feats. Tough to pull off but sometimes worth it.

[ElHugo]

Hmm, unfortunately, I'm already pretty much set on weapon choices, as I'm using weapons of legacy as part of the overarching storyline - a pair of elven thinblades, not maximally effective perhaps, but The Cewl, so w/e.

Anyhow, only what's in Cwar for feats? Damn... Although talking my DM into letting me roll them into the twf feats, I at least might pick up some defense...
On a power level, how would you people say TWF compares with two-handed and sword-and-shield?

Numbers in support would help, but solid arguments are welcome too

[Swooper]

Not a feat related to TWF directly, but Stormguard Warrior [Tactical] from ToB, when combined with TWF, will let you rock the house.

[Quietus]

There's also Pin Shield, which lets you give up your off-hand attacks and force your opponent to give up their shield bonus to AC, for what that's worth. Think it's in Cwar.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Sword and shield is ineffective. One of the main reasons is that it lowers the amount of damage you can add through Power Attack, which is more or less essential for ToBless meleers. This can be remedied using Dragon's Lady's Gambit, but it is still suboptimal.


Two Handed Fighting, on the other hand, is the most effective setup, because Power attack bonuses are doubled. This allows you to jack up the damage you do, to the extent of UberCharger builds, which can do 500+ damage per charge.

[Matthew]

You want Lion Barbarian Totem thingy from Complete Champion. A 1 level dip gets you Pounce [i.e. all your Attacks at the end of a Charge]. It's stinky cheese, but you might as well be aware of it.

[Tyger]

On a power level, how would you people say TWF compares with two-handed and sword-and-shield?

Numbers in support would help, but solid arguments are welcome too

As has already been said, when it comes right down to it, TWFing is the mathematically inferior choice of the three possible styles. Lowest BAB, without the possibility of boosting your AC, and really only effective on Full Attack, which can be hard to come by if your DM is playing the NPCs smart.

THF is mathematically the best, due to the aforementioned Power Attack bonuses, but also for those with high strength getting that 1.5X benefit as well.

[Tren]

Thinblade is considered a medium weapon correct? Are you taking penalties for using one in your off-hand? If so you may conside Oversized Two Weapon Fighting in complete adventurer, reduces the off-hand penalty for not using a small weapon.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I always get confused. Was thinblade the light elven blade, or was it lightblade?

[AslanCross]

Thinblade is the longsword-sized one with the crit range of a rapier. The lightblade is like a rapier except it's a light weapon.

[Matthew]

A quick search of these Forums should get you all the Maths you need:

Two Weapon Fighting Search Results (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=334204)

Why Two Weapon Fighting Sucks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31844)

Two Weapon Fighting and Magic Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32697)

Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30734)

[Tequila Sunrise]

On a power level, how would you people say TWF compares with two-handed and sword-and-shield?

Numbers in support would help, but solid arguments are welcome too

TWF is strictly inferior to THF. Sword and shielders have the advantage of extra AC, even if it is of arguable value but unfortunately the one and only good reason to use TWF is its "cool factor". Just take a look at the most important mechanics to any melee character:

Attack Opportunities: Without special feats or classes, a TWFer can only use their fighting style if they manage to pull off a full attack action. Other melee styles only require a charge or standard action.

AB: TWF is the only style that penalizes your chances to actually hit anyone, even with the best weapon combos. In addition, the high Dex requirements for the TWF feats almost demands Weapon Finesse to maximize your AB.

Power Attack: TWFers only get +1 damage per AB sacrificed, as counter intuitive as that sounds. Sword and shielders get that, plus their extra AC. THFers get double bang for their buck.

Strength to Damage: TWFers effectively apply x1.5 Str bonus to damage (assuming they can pull off a full attack), which is in theory superior to sword and shielders and equivalent to THFers. But thanks to the high Dex demands of the TWF feats, this shred of hope for TWFers is reduced to a crying ghost.

Damage Reduction: TWF is the only style which DR applies to doubly.

And finally, consider the cost of buying and upgrading two weapons, about the most expensive items in the game. THFers need only invest in one weapon, while even sword and shielders invest 25% less cash into their tools of choice.

Oh, and just for extra kicks note that the 4th TWF feat is missing from core. Apparently gaining a fourth off-hand attack at a -15 penalty is so good that it needs to be epic.

All that said, there is a reason for TWFing to suck the ballerinas out of all other fighting styles: if it didn't, every rogue ever played would be a TWFer capable of mincing barbarians into tiny pieces with one full attack. I myself have come up with a set of alternate mechanics for players who want to play a TWF warrior and not suck at the same time. It boosts a lot of the TWF mechanics, while restricting precision damage to one weapon at a time.

[AslanCross]

All that said, there is a reason for TWFing to suck the ballerinas out of all other fighting styles: if it didn't, every rogue ever played would be a TWFer capable of mincing barbarians into tiny pieces with one full attack. I myself have come up with a set of alternate mechanics for players who want to play a TWF warrior and not suck at the same time. It boosts a lot of the TWF mechanics, while restricting precision damage to one weapon at a time.

Just to nitpick, rogues are not likely to be able to sneak attack Barbarians anyway due to Improved Uncanny Dodge.

But yes, there is very little incentive for a TWF fighter. It's too bad, because I like it the most.

Outside of core, there are a bunch of Weapon Style feats in Complete Warrior, many of which are TWF-based.

[Kompera]

Interestingly, almost all proposed 'fixes' to the mechanical imbalance between TWF and THW involve boosting the TWF in some manner. Maybe there are some, I didn't see any "nerf THW" posts but those threads are fairly long and the signal is buried in a lot of noise.

Why no suggestions to reduce the effectiveness of THW? Would that be because doing so would only serve to widen the perceived gap between casters and melee types?

There's no particular reason why Power Attack should have the damage component doubled just because you're wielding a THW. Even the base STR bonus is only multiplied by 1.5 when using a THW.

[JaxGaret]

Interestingly, almost all proposed 'fixes' to the mechanical imbalance between TWF and THW involve boosting the TWF in some manner. Maybe there are some, I didn't see any "nerf THW" posts but those threads are fairly long and the signal is buried in a lot of noise.

Why no suggestions to reduce the effectiveness of THW? Would that be because doing so would only serve to widen the perceived gap between casters and melee types?

There's no particular reason why Power Attack should have the damage component doubled just because you're wielding a THW. Even the base STR bonus is only multiplied by 1.5 when using a THW.

Because fighting classes are already nerfed compared to casters. There's no good reason to slap the THFers down just because TWF isn't really well designed.

[Iku Rex]

There's no particular reason why Power Attack should have the damage component doubled just because you're wielding a THW. Actually, there is. +2 damage for -1 AB is roughly what the math works out to when it comes to choosing between damage or attack bonus. For example, Weapon Focus (+1 AB) adds roughly the same amount to a THW fighter's average damage dealt as Weapon Specialization (+2 damage).

If Power Attack didn't match this it would be a feat primarily for low-damage one-handed weapon wielders, like in 3.0. (Though in 3.0 you could even use it with "light" weapons.) The game designers didn't think "Power Attack" should be the staple of rapier-wielding swashbucklers and the like, so they gave it a boost when used with a two-handed weapon. Most of the time a decent THW fighter will be just as well, or better, off trying to hit as often as possible instead of increasing his already respectable damage.

Incidentally, a character wielding two one-handed weapons (like the OP) effectively gets +2 damage for each -1 AB with Power Attack, same as a 2HW fighter.

[Matthew]

Interestingly, almost all proposed 'fixes' to the mechanical imbalance between TWF and THW involve boosting the TWF in some manner. Maybe there are some, I didn't see any "nerf THW" posts but those threads are fairly long and the signal is buried in a lot of noise.

Why no suggestions to reduce the effectiveness of THW? Would that be because doing so would only serve to widen the perceived gap between casters and melee types?

There's no particular reason why Power Attack should have the damage component doubled just because you're wielding a THW. Even the base STR bonus is only multiplied by 1.5 when using a THW.

My fix involves using the 3.0 version of Power Attack. The key changes are limiting Two Weapon Fighting to one additional attack ever and multiplying both the Strength Damage Bonus and Strength Attack Bonus by 1.5 with a Two Handed Weapon. So.

Fighter 1
Strength 15

Battle Axe and and Heavy Shield: 1 x [AB 3, DB 1D8+2 (6.5)]
Great Axe: 1 x [AB 4, DB 1D12+3 (9.5)]
Two Hand Axes: 2 x [AB 1, DB 1D6+2 (5.5)]

[KillianHawkeye]

And finally, consider the cost of buying and upgrading two weapons, about the most expensive items in the game. THFers need only invest in one weapon, while even sword and shielders invest 25% less cash into their tools of choice.

Actually, it costs much less to buy two +1 weapons than it does to buy one +2 weapon.

[Goumindong]

See if you can get your DM to let elven thinblades be shadow hand weapons.

Dip into swordsage for two levels and you get wiz to AC[you wont wear heavier than light armor] can pick up a stance that gives you +2d6 sneak attack damage[great for a TWFer, better than most of the stances ive looked at for them], and then the Shadow Blade.

This gives you on your main hand

+str + dex

and on your off hand

+ 1/2 str + dex

Which means SINGLE ATTRIBUTE DEPENDENCY. You essentially gain 2x dex to damage. You lose a point of BAB, but get a free weapon focus so your ending Attack rating is the same

Eventually against opponents vulnerable to sneak you will be doing

Main: Weapon + str + dex + int + 2d6

Off: Weapon + 1/2str + dex + int + 2d6

Which means that not only do you have single attribute dependency[dex boosts damage, and AC], but you also gain more benefits from +int, +str, + wis items than you normally would not.

If someone in your party is playing a Bard, or you dont mind losing an initiator level you can dip bard and take song of the white raven. Now you can also add a bard song[oratory] into your routine at level-2 effectiveness[I.E. as if you were a bard of two levels lower, and can apply all the feats that boost THAT for even more + attack/Dmg. NOTE: This does not allow you to use the effect as a swift action. Since you have to be in a white raven stance and THAT is a swift action and since you actually want to be in a shadow hand stance for the dex to damage bonus you will need to spend a standard action to boost.

[Tyger]

Actually, it costs much less to buy two +1 weapons than it does to buy one +2 weapon.

Yes, but that is not the point. It costs twice as much to buy two +2 weapons as it does to buy one. That's the comparitor group.

Saying that you can buy 2 Honda Civics for the price of the Porsche doesn't mean that two Honda Civics are equal to the Porsche, does it? :smalltongue:

[Goumindong]

Yes, but that is not the point. It costs twice as much to buy two +2 weapons as it does to buy one. That's the comparitor group.

Saying that you can buy 2 Honda Civics for the price of the Porsche doesn't mean that two Honda Civics are equal to the Porsche, does it? :smalltongue:

If you could drive the honda civics at the same time it would. The two hander gets +1 attack and +1 damage with his attacks, and the two weapon fighter makes up the damage in his off hands.

As you start stacking up enhancements you find that the TWF'er with two weapons enchanted for extra damage bonuses[2 x +1 Frozen Flaming Shocking daggers of collision = +6 equivelent = about same as a +8 weapon, the plus 8 weapon has 2 extra enhancements for another +7 avg damage/hit, but the second +6 weapon is still hitting for 15.5 each hit it gets.

The only real problem is that the two hander since he doesnt need extra damage die as much can grab bag weapons. Say have 3-4 +5 equiv weapons for various situations. The Brilliant Energy when fighting thigns wearing armor, the +5 for things with high AC, and the +1 hold sword of speed for general use.

[Iku Rex]

Yes, but that is not the point. It costs twice as much to buy two +2 weapons as it does to buy one. That's the comparitor group.Not really. Two +1 flaming weapons cost 16600+. One +1 flaming, shocking weapon costs 18300+ . The two-weapon fighter gets +1 to hit and +2+2d6 to damage. The two-handed weapon fighter gets +1 to hit and +1+2d6 to damage. Smaller benefit, higher price. And this gets worse as the weapons get more expensive and you add spells and weapon crystals.

It helps to look at each attack "pair" in a two-weapon attack sequence as a single attack when comparing to two-handed weapons.

[Shisumo]

It helps to look at each attack "pair" in a two-weapon attack sequence as a single attack when comparing to two-handed weapons.

It does help. That's because it's inaccurate. Taking a random example - an AC that the 1WF can hit on an 11+ - the 2WF is only a third as likely to do its full damage as the 1WF is. That extra +1 damage isn't going to make up the damage lost by having to roll your dice more often and to take penalties while doing so.

[Tequila Sunrise]

There's no particular reason why Power Attack should have the damage component doubled just because you're wielding a THW. Even the base STR bonus is only multiplied by 1.5 when using a THW.
I agree; I'd prefer if PA enhanced THF by x1.5 if only to make it consistent with the Str enhancement. I don't houserule it though, because I really try not to nerf anything core--that's a quick and easy way to create a bunch of unhappy headache players.

[Iku Rex]

It does help. That's because it's inaccurate. Taking a random example - an AC that the 1WF can hit on an 11+ - the 2WF is only a third as likely to do its full damage as the 1WF is. That extra +1 damage isn't going to make up the damage lost by having to roll your dice more often and to take penalties while doing so.Uh, yes, two-weapon fighting comes with an attack penalty. That "single attack" will have -2 AB compared to THF. How does that make magic weapons more expensive?

And having to "roll your dice more often" won't lower your damage by itself. You won't do full damage as often, but in return you'll do some damage more often. (DR can be harder to deal with, but that's a different matter.)

[Shisumo]

Uh, yes, two-weapon fighting comes with an attack penalty. That "single attack" will have -2 AB compared to THF. How does that make magic weapons more expensive?
I wasn't talking about price. I quoted the part I was referring to: the specific suggestion that considering two weapons the equivalent of one weapon with a higher bonus was valid. It isn't; it significantly weights the comparison in favor of the two weapons, because it assumes that the damage from both weapons will get through as often as the damage from one weapon will - this is not the case.


And having to "roll your dice more often" won't lower your damage by itself. You won't do full damage as often, but in return you'll do some damage more often. (DR can be harder to deal with, but that's a different matter.)

It's true - you are a little less than one-third more likely to do some damage over using a single weapon (given the AC/attack bonus relationship I stipulated earlier). Nevedrtheless, even leaving aside DR (and other issues like Power Attack, raising Dex instead of Str and the benefits of using a weapon two-handed over one handed), having to make multiple attacks at a penalty reduces your average damage. Putting together my attack example and your weapon example, we have this:

1WF: attack success 50%, average damage per successful attack +8 (from the weapon enchantments alone, since that's what we're comparing), average damage per attack +4 (8*.5)
2WF: attack success 40%, average damage per successful attack +4.5, average damage per attack pair +3.6 (4.5*.4 + 4.5*.4)
So extra chance to do damage notwithstanding, over the course of an entire fight you will do more damage with a single weapon than with two.

Now, however, I am curious - if we take that average damage and divide it by the amount of money paid to get it, which comes out ahead on damage/gp? I honestly don't know, I've never checked before. It's pretty simple, though: (18300/4=4575), (16600/3.6=4611.11)

So I guess using two weapons does make them more expensive... from a certain point of view, anyway.

[Matthew]

It's easier to compare damage output when you use Power Attack to make the AB equal.

So:

TWF: -2 AB = THF: +4 DB

Everytime THF gains a +1 AB over TWF (usually via magic) it becomes an additional +2 to Damage.

Much more important than all that, though, is the 'Of Speed' 'enchancement' (yes, I said enchancement), as it doesn't stack with itself (or is usually thought not to). THF kills TWF at that point.

[Iku Rex]

I quoted the part I was referring to: the specific suggestion that considering two weapons the equivalent of one weapon with a higher bonus was valid. It isn't; it significantly weights the comparison in favor of the two weapons, because it assumes that the damage from both weapons will get through as often as the damage from one weapon will - this is not the case.Here's what I said: "It helps to look at each attack "pair" in a two-weapon attack sequence as a single attack when comparing to two-handed weapons."

That remains true. The single attack in question will have a -2 penalty compared to a THW attack, but I'm pretty sure everyone reading this (barring casual lurkers) knew TWF came with an attack penalty. They don't need you to point it out. It has nothing to do with extra damage from magic weapons, which was after all the topic of my post.

Then you felt the need to "prove" that a -2 penalty on attacks means lower average damage. I hate to tell you this, but again I'm confident everyone knew that.

If you actually want to compare the average damage output from two-handed weapons with two-weapon fighting you need to add more per-attack damage modifiers like cheap (at higher levels) spell buffs, weapon crystals (MIC), a Torc of the Titans (MIC), Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, sneak attack, the Shadow Blade (ToB) feat, the Divine Might (CWar) feat, the swashbuckler's (CWar) Insightful Strike ability... and so on and so forth. All of which are effectively doubled by two-weapon fighting. It's not that hard to beat the average damage lost due to the attack penalty.

[Matthew]

Here's what I said: "It helps to look at each attack "pair" in a two-weapon attack sequence as a single attack when comparing to two-handed weapons."

That remains true. The single attack in question will have a -2 penalty compared to a THW attack, but I'm pretty sure everyone reading this (barring casual lurkers) knew TWF came with an attack penalty. They don't need you to point it out. It has nothing to do with extra damage from magic weapons, which was after all the topic of my post.

Then you felt the need to "prove" that a -2 penalty on attacks means lower average damage. I hate to tell you this, but again I'm confident everyone knew that.

If you actually want to compare the average damage output from two-handed weapons with two-weapon fighting you need to add more per-attack damage modifiers like cheap (at higher levels) spell buffs, weapon crystals (MIC), a Torc of the Titans (MIC), Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, sneak attack, the Shadow Blade (ToB) feat, the Divine Might (CWar) feat, the swashbuckler's (CWar) Insightful Strike ability... and so on and so forth. All of which are effectively doubled by two-weapon fighting. It's not that hard to beat the average damage lost due to the attack penalty.

Perhaps you could present such a Character Build so that we can compare it to what can be done with Two Handed Fighting?

[Iku Rex]

Perhaps you could present such a Character Build so that we can compare it to what can be done with Two Handed Fighting?What is it you doubt? That per-attack bonuses can add up to more than 4 damage? (To compensate for the lost attack bonus.)

I don't understand why a "build" is required to show that. I've already listed a number of ways to accomplish it.

[Matthew]

Erm, because I am interested in seeing exactly the process by which you're seeking to optimise Two Weapon Fighting. Just citing a bunch of Magical Items and Feats doesn't really show anything much until they are put in context. To be blunt, yeah, I doubt that Two Weapon Fighting can be optimised to be better than Two Handed Fighting for conventional play.

[Shisumo]

Here's what I said: "It helps to look at each attack "pair" in a two-weapon attack sequence as a single attack when comparing to two-handed weapons."

That remains true.
Helps to what end? Because the rest of your post - and I'm referring specifically to "Smaller benefit, higher price," - seems to be saying that it "helps" to make two weapons more effective as compared to one, and that simply isn't true.

The single attack in question will have a -2 penalty compared to a THW attack, but I'm pretty sure everyone reading this (barring casual lurkers) knew TWF came with an attack penalty. They don't need you to point it out. It has nothing to do with extra damage from magic weapons, which was after all the topic of my post.
As was mine.


Then you felt the need to "prove" that a -2 penalty on attacks means lower average damage. I hate to tell you this, but again I'm confident everyone knew that.
I'm sure they did to, but whether you wish to admit it or not, you weren't taking the matter into account. It does not matter if you are doing equal or greater damage with TWF unless the bonus damage actually makes up for the loss of damage you take from simply using a second weapon. All the extra damage in the world is irrelevant unless you actually hit with it - since that happens less often with two weapons than it does with one, a comparison that ignores that is simply not valid.


If you actually want to compare the average damage output from two-handed weapons with two-weapon fighting
Yes, but I don't. I didn't mention two hands, Power Attack, or any of the rest of that except to say that wasn't my purpose. As I said twice in my post, I was looking at specifically the benefits of the enchantments on the weapons, nothing more.


All of which are effectively doubled by two-weapon fighting. It's not that hard to beat the average damage lost due to the attack penalty.

They are not effectively doubled, for the same reason that you can't equate a pair of 2W attacks with a single 1W attack (and I'm using italics here because it's the central point you seem to be missing): extra damage is not worth as much if you have to hit less often to get it.

And no, it isn't too hard to make up for the damage lost that way - but it is hard to make up for the damage lost that way on top of the benefits gained by a 1WF putting the same number of resources into their attack and damage output, especially when you realize first that you're at least one feat behind just by trying TWF.

[Iku Rex]

(Sorry about the delay.)

Erm, because I am interested in seeing exactly the process by which you're seeking to optimise Two Weapon Fighting. Just citing a bunch of Magical Items and Feats doesn't really show anything much until they are put in context. To be blunt, yeah, I doubt that Two Weapon Fighting can be optimised to be better than Two Handed Fighting for conventional play.Ah, you have me confused with imaginary Iku Rex, who "seeks to optimize" Two-Weapon Fighting and thinks it's the end-all, be-all of melee combat.

The real Iku Rex on the other hand considers Two-Weapon Fighting a sub-optimal fighting style, mainly because of the MAD, feat requirements and the need for full attacks to use it to full effect. Not, however, because it's useless or incapable of matching or surpassing the damage output of a two-handed weapon under the right circumstances.

I'm sure I could come up with a few builds that make good use of two-weapon fighting, but I don't see any point in doing the work for your amusement. Especially when you name no target level, willingness to accept cheese or other requirements.

[Iku Rex]

Helps to what end?
Two-weapon fighting: X damage on "one" (combined) attack.
Two-handed weapon: Y damage on one attack.

Does dealing X damage make up for the (most commonly) -2 penalty? Or is dealing Y damage without the penalty and having extra feats better?

Comparing two numbers, one modified by attack penalty, is easier than dealing with the individual attacks in the two-weapon attack sequence. You even did it yourself when calculating damage from magic weapons per attack.

Because the rest of your post - and I'm referring specifically to "Smaller benefit, higher price," - seems to be saying that it "helps" to make two weapons more effective as compared to one, and that simply isn't true.You're wrong. Being able to use two weapons instead of one lets you buy more "weapon damage" at lower cost, which is an advantage. In this particular instance doesn't make up for the disadvantage of a -2 penalty on attacks, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

It's not like I was all cryptic about what I meant by "smaller benefit, higher price" - it was spelled out quite clearly in my post. I find it difficult to believe that you genuinely believed that I was including the attack penalty for using two weapons (at least one light) in that statement.

They are not effectively doubled, for the same reason that you can't equate a pair of 2W attacks with a single 1W attack (and I'm using italics here because it's the central point you seem to be missing): extra damage is not worth as much if you have to hit less often to get it.They're effectively doubled for the purpose of average damage on a regular hit. There is no way to reasonably read my post to "interpret" it so that I meant "average damage on an attack" in that statement. The "damage" from those sources is doubled the same way that Weapon Specialization adds 2 to your "damage".

[Matthew]

Heh, okay, I can understand that. On the other hand, if you did feel like doing stuff for my amusement, I would like to see the build at Levels 1, 6, 11 and 16, also Levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. :smallbiggrin: Anything from an Official D&D Supplement (but not Campaign Setting) would be fine, but Races limited to the Default. I would also be interested in a Tome of Battle and None Tome of Battle variants. No custom Magic Items, but otherwise Wealth By Level as you like.

If you really want to entertain me, I would like to see an Optimised Monk...

[Person_Man]

TWF doesn't require any fixes. It just requires intelligent use.

1) Find something to do that isn't Power Attack. Precision damage is popular. Ability damage works even better (Rogue 10, or Psychic Assassin 5, Maiming Strike, Touch of Golden Ice, etc). Fear sometimes works well (Disciple of the Eye, Avenging Executioner, Frightful Presence). And the Tome of Battle is chock full of combos (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285) that work well with TWF.

2) And/or use Power Attack intelligently. With Improved Unarmed Strike or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, you can apply Power Attack to every attack.

3) Get Pounce. This is an old link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3517356) with a ton of different ways. The ToB gives you a good option as well. Or you can dip one level into Barbarian using the Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion. Once you have Pounce, Leap Attack becomes a great option with TWF.

4) Be a Ranger. Take commonly fought enemies as your Favored Enemies, like Aberrations, Magical beasts, Undead, and Arcanists. Take the Extra Favored Enemy feat if you need more. Take two levels of Stalker of Karash if you want Favored Enemy (Evil). Then take Favored Power Attack to double your Power Attack bonus.

5) Use a masochist build. This is very feat intensive, and very dangerous, but it can be very potent. TWF + Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit. Enemy hits you once, you hit enemy four times in return. Works even better with Decisive Strike or Overpowering Attack (PHBII variants) and/or a King of Smack build.