Twilight Cleric Channel Divinity vs Sources of light

[javianhalt]

Hello!

The Twlight Domain from Tasha's state the following:


TWILIGHT DOMAIN
The twilit transition from light into darkness often brings calm and even joy, as the day's labors end and the hours of rest begin. The darkness can also bring terrors, but the gods of twilight guard against the horrors of the night. Clerics who serve these deities-examples of which appear on the Twilight Deities table-bring comfort to those who seek rest and protect them by venturing into the encroaching darkness to ensure that the dark is a comfort, not a terror.

Of course, that's just flavor, so talking about mechanics, we have the Channel Divinity Feature:

CHANNEL DIVINITY: TWILIGHT SANCTUARY
2nd-level Twilight Domain feature
You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:
• You grant it temporary hit points equal to ld6 plus your cleric level.
• You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

What I'm more interested in, is this part: "The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. "
When you are in a dark place, I don't think there is any doubt that you will create a 30-foot radius dim light area.
But what about open spaces where the Sunlight is above you (or someone list a torch). I see two possible interpretations:

1. The direct sunlight is brighter and turns my dim light sphere into a daylight place like normal (which seems to be the RAW unless I missed something)
2. The sphere actually DIMS the sunlight and inside that 30 foot radius, we are in dim light, not direct sunlight, like a big umbrella sphere (which would make sense thematically and could be RAI)

The only other spells I could think of that does thing similarly are Moonbean (which fills a 2x2 grid with dim light, but never says it can't turn into full light with a torch) and darkness (which specifies clearly that nonmagical light can’t illuminate it).


Is there any consensus on how these light sources interact with themselves?

[Keravath]

My interpretation is that the rules do exactly what they say they do.

"The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."

The description of the ability does not mention other sources of light or any other effects. It just mentions that it creates a 30' radius region of dim light and would do so whether it is dark or light or any other illumination status.

The darkness spell creates darkness. Why is it a stretch to think that magic granted by a diety could not create a sphere of dim light no matter what other lighting or lack of it is present?

[javianhalt]

My interpretation is that the rules do exactly what they say they do.

"The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."

The description of the ability does not mention other sources of light or any other effects. It just mentions that it creates a 30' radius region of dim light and would do so whether it is dark or light or any other illumination status.

The darkness spell creates darkness. Why is it a stretch to think that magic granted by a diety could not create a sphere of dim light no matter what other lighting or lack of it is present?

The thing is, Darkness not only says it creates an area of darkness; it also says non-magical light can't illuminate that area. Basically, it goes out of its way to make sure you won't be able to easily make it bright again because by RAW if something is dark you just need to light a torch and make it bright again.

As far as "doing what the rules say" goes, the rules clearly work in a way that brighter things usually illuminate darker areas, and the other way around (things that darken areas) are exceptions.
So basically I'm not saying you don't create the dim light area. I'm just trying to figure out something in RAW that says it doesn't get illuminated by other light sources. Again, "doing what the rules say" would not prevent a regular light source from turning dim light into bright light, since nothing in the feature's description states that.

I'm actually hoping for it to be dim light, as it would make it easier for the cleric to fly around in 6th level (and kinda OP maybe?). Let's see if someone has a RAW argument for this to work.

[Keravath]

The thing is, Darkness not only says it creates an area of darkness; it also says non-magical light can't illuminate that area. Basically, it goes out of its way to make sure you won't be able to easily make it bright again because by RAW if something is dark you just need to light a torch and make it bright again.

As far as "doing what the rules say" goes, the rules clearly work in a way that brighter things usually illuminate darker areas, and the other way around (things that darken areas) are exceptions.
So basically I'm not saying you don't create the dim light area. I'm just trying to figure out something in RAW that says it doesn't get illuminated by other light sources. Again, "doing what the rules say" would not prevent a regular light source from turning dim light into bright light, since nothing in the feature's description states that.

I'm actually hoping for it to be dim light, as it would make it easier for the cleric to fly around in 6th level (and kinda OP maybe?). Let's see if someone has a RAW argument for this to work.

PHB p183

"The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.
Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.
Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.
Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."


The rules explicitly define what bright light, dim light and darkness are. The rules do not say that a bright light cancels dim light or darkness. That is a common sense ruling based on our normal experience. The darkness spell explicitly describes how it interacts with various sources of light because it cancels some and can be canceled by others.

However, the twilight cleric ability is very simple and explicit.

"The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."

It does not say that it is only filled with dim light when it is dark. If it had meant to say that then that is what it would say.

It also does NOT say that the radius is a source of dim light. The dim light does NOT extend beyond the 30' radius. It is not a source of dim light. It can't illuminate anything beyond the 30'. However, everything within the 30' radius is evenly illuminated with dim light.

Consider a torch that emits light which is bright for 20' and dim for an additional 20'. The twilight cleric ability does not do that. It is NOT a light source ... it is a specific lighting effect - the radius is filled with dim light no matter what other conditions might be present. During the day, a torch has no effect since the entire area is illuminated. This is because the torch is a source of light that can be over written by other sources. With the twilight cleric ability, the area is "filled with dim light".

Personally, I don't see how it can be any clearer than that. The twilight cleric ability creates a region filled with dim light with a 30' radius. How? It is magic. It is not creating a light source. In game terms it is creating a region with a defined game effect called "dim light".

I think the interaction with mundane light sources is pretty clear also. Magic > mundane. Specific > general. Torches, the sun etc would not create bright light at all within the twilight sanctuary since it is "filled with dim light".

As DM, I would tend to extend this to magical sources of both light and darkness or at least evaluate them on a case by case basis since the cleric ability is also magical. It is difficult in some cases to determine which would take precedence since most spells specify spell levels which would be canceled by the light/darkness while the channel divinity doesn't have an explicit level associated with it - so it could either be canceled by any source of magical light/darkness or by none.

Anyway, you asked for an interpretation of the rules and I tend to go with RAW for the most part and rules as written the twilight sanctuary is a 30' radius sphere "filled with dim light" that moves with the cleric and lasts a minute. Dim light is clearly defined in the rules and the rules for twilight sanctuary do not say that either natural or magical sources of light would block the effect.

P.S. Most spells create sources of light (light spell, daylight etc) rather than creating a region "filled" with a specific type of illumination. As a result, something like a torch or the light spell would cast shadows while the twilight sanctuary would not.

[javianhalt]

The rules explicitly define what bright light, dim light and darkness are. The rules do not say that a bright light cancels dim light or darkness.
Yeah, I agree they don't say bright light cancel dim light. They also don't say dim light cancels bright light. If you go to that route of argumentation, it goes both ways. You are defining the precedence of the Twilight Cleric ability based on your interpretation that it SHOULD stay dim light because it makes sense, just like common sense says a torch illuminates darkness.


If you want to avoid all this common sense and interpretation, consider the rules you quoted:


PHB p183
Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.
Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

So if I light a torch inside the area or cast the Light cantrip, how do you determine precedence? Is it light within the range of the light source and dim light on the rest? Or is the cleric's ability snuffing the light and the source becomes useless?

You presented 2 ways of determining precedence if I understood correctly:
1. "It's magic".
Doesn't stick, because like you said it does not specify a "spell level". It's basically you saying it's magical divine power and therefore more important than another light source. That's not RAW as far as I know.
2. The wording "fill with" takes precedence over "sheds light" or "source of light"
Again, unless I missed something, this is never written clearly anywhere (and it's the core problem with the interactions IMHO)

So unless I missed some part of your argument, to me it doesn't stand by itself as RAW. You are utilizing some rules but making some assumptions along with them that are not written, and that's literally RAI.


To me, there's nothing really clear about this interaction, without using some sort of common sense, to either side of the argument. I mentioned the spell darkness because - unlike the twilight cleric's ability - that one is REALLY CLEAR and EXPLICIT on its' conditions and light interactions.

If for you the twilight sanctuary by itself it's 100% crystal clear, no doubts involved, we have different ways of evaluating what's really written and well explained and this argument will end in a "agree to disagree" situation, at least from my part.

[javianhalt]

Found an example of a much more clear way of writing the effect, if the intention is turning bright light into dim light (emphasis by me):


Shadow Of Moil
4th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (an undead eyeball encased in a gem worth at least 150 gp)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Flame-like shadows wreathe your body until the spell ends, causing you to become heavily obscured to others. The shadows turn dim light within 10 feet of you into darkness, and bright light in the same area to dim light.

Until the spell ends, you have resistance to radiant damage. In addition, whenever a creature within 10 feet of you hits you with an attack, the shadows lash out at that creature, dealing it 2d8 necrotic damage.

[SirDidymus]

The issue with the Shadow of Moil example is that it's something different. The specificity in that description is due to it having different effects in different light levels. It turns dim light to darkness and bright light to dim light.
That actually argues to me that the Twilight cleric creates dim light regardless of light sources because it only lists the one effect. Shadow of Moil creates a different effect based on light level. The Twilight cleric creates the same effect regardless of the light level.

[Man_Over_Game]

It also does NOT say that the radius is a source of dim light. The dim light does NOT extend beyond the 30' radius. It is not a source of dim light. It can't illuminate anything beyond the 30'. However, everything within the 30' radius is evenly illuminated with dim light.

Consider a torch that emits light which is bright for 20' and dim for an additional 20'. The twilight cleric ability does not do that. It is NOT a light source ... it is a specific lighting effect - the radius is filled with dim light no matter what other conditions might be present. During the day, a torch has no effect since the entire area is illuminated. This is because the torch is a source of light that can be over written by other sources. With the twilight cleric ability, the area is "filled with dim light".


That was my interpretation of it. If it wanted to say that you provided Dim Light with an X Radius, like any other light source, then it'd be more easily interpreted as a light source. As-is, it comes off as a weird ball that forces a diety's preferred mood lighting for any occasion. Like Darkness, just not as dark.

[Valmark]

It turns bright light (or darkness) into dim light. Reason for this being that ruling that the dim light area is 'defeated' by outside light (or darkness) means the Tricksy Fey ability (which uses the same wording) is completely useless- there's no point to filling an area with darkness if dim/bright light defeats it.

I think the lack of specifics is an error on WotC's part- if you compare it to spells/features in previous books it shouldn't work, homewever comparing the wording with other features/spells shows that ruling that it doesn't work into bright light makes another part of the book useless, which is presumably not the intent.

[follacchioso]

Well, if you are under direct sunlight, and fire up a torch, the torch will emit dim light around you. That doesn't mean that the area becomes less bright.

[Chronic]

The channel ability create a bubble of dim light no matter what, it seems pretty obvious considering the mechanics and the thematics of the class. Which also means it bypass any magical darkness, since channel divinity aren't spells, and they also connot be dispelled or conterspelled.

[Rukelnikov]

That was my interpretation of it. If it wanted to say that you provided Dim Light with an X Radius, like any other light source, then it'd be more easily interpreted as a light source. As-is, it comes off as a weird ball that forces a diety's preferred mood lighting for any occasion. Like Darkness, just not as dark.

So, In your opinion, how does it interact with other illumination effects like say Hunger of Hadar?

[Droppeddead]

Yeah, I agree they don't say bright light cancel dim light. They also don't say dim light cancels bright light. If you go to that route of argumentation, it goes both ways.

Actually, it doesn't. There is no "cancelling". The Twilight Cleric creates a sphere of dim light. What kind of light is in that sphere? It's dim. No need to go further than that.

Shadow of Moil is a different case since it explicitly has a description regarding light.

And yes, this means that 6th level Twilight clerics can fly using the dim light they create using the channel divinity.

[Rukelnikov]

Actually, it doesn't. There is no "cancelling". The Twilight Cleric creates a sphere of dim light. What kind of light is in that sphere? It's dim. No need to go further than that.

Shadow of Moil is a different case since it explicitly has a description regarding light.

And yes, this means that 6th level Twilight clerics can fly using the dim light they create using the channel divinity.

But there is need to. What happens when this effects overlaps with another effects that sets the tone, like Hunger of Hadar for instance, does the volume where the HoH spell and the TC Channel Divinity overlap have dim light?

The general rule is that the area within 30 ft of the cleric has dim light, it doesn't give specifics about the area per se.

However the spell is pretty specific "No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area"

This would indicate that it should't have dim light.

One could argue, however, that the cleric is not illuminating the area, but setting it to dim light.

But that could be refuted with the fact that dim light is listed as one of the three possible categories of illumination, thus it means it is illuminating the area.

So I don't think its as clear cut as you think it is.

[Chronic]

As written, nothing light related can interact with the channel divinity. The light dimming of shadow of moil doesn't work in the bubble. Neither does darkness. It's a strong if situational effect.

[Segev]

The region is filled with dim light, regardless of what light sources are present.

However, any effect which specifies that it overrides or is overridden by spells of a particular level would treat it as not being a spell of that level. It therefore cannot illuminate darkness's AoE, because it is not a spell of level 2+. Daylight likewise neither illuminates it nor dispels it, because it is not a spell effect of level 2 or lower. It is also not extinguished by and will illuminate a Darkmantle's darkness, since it is not a spell effect of 2nd level or lower and is not natural light.

[Rukelnikov]

As written, nothing light related can interact with the channel divinity. The light dimming of shadow of moil doesn't work in the bubble. Neither does darkness. It's a strong if situational effect.

Why does it turn the area of Hunger of Hadar into dim light, when the spell states no light can illuminate it?

[Darthnazrael]

I see a lot of folks here arguing that there's a clear and decisive answer one way or another, and that's just obviously not the case. The point is, this power (like a lot of things in this book) is poorly edited. I mean, this same subclass grants 300 (!!!) feet of Darkvision at lvl 1, to multiple characters, when it's clear they meant to grant 30.

There is no clarity on how this channel divinity works, so frankly, you're going to need to discuss it with your DM.

[Droppeddead]

But there is need to. What happens when this effects overlaps with another effects that sets the tone, like Hunger of Hadar for instance, does the volume where the HoH spell and the TC Channel Divinity overlap have dim light?

Well, now you are talking about something comepletely different from the question I answered. So new situation requires a new answer.


The general rule is that the area within 30 ft of the cleric has dim light, it doesn't give specifics about the area per se.

Well, it does, dim light for 30 feet.


However the spell is pretty specific "No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area"

This would indicate that it should't have dim light.

Congratulations, there's your answer.


One could argue, however, that the cleric is not illuminating the area, but setting it to dim light.

Congratulations, there's your second answer. Ask your DM which answer they prefer.


But that could be refuted with the fact that dim light is listed as one of the three possible categories of illumination, thus it means it is illuminating the area.

Actually, it doesn't but I wouldn't argue with such an interpretation.


So I don't think its as clear cut as you think it is.

The situation to which my reply was directed at is very clear cut. Your new example is a different topic. Personally I would just let the effect produced most recently be the one that takes precedence. But that's just how I would rule it as a DM.

[Man_Over_Game]

So, In your opinion, how does it interact with other illumination effects like say Hunger of Hadar?

My DM senses tell me to just use the same ruling that Darkness and Daylight have, and just treat all magical lighting as having a power equal to the spell level. In lieu of a spell level, proficiency. The greater power overlaps the weaker, and two equal power levels have a nullified lighting effect.

So the Twilight Zone creates a field of Dim Light until another magical light source overlaps it with a higher spell level/proficiency than your proficiency.

Not sure what the hell is inside of Hunger of Hadar, but I imagine I'd still want to give it its privacy.

[Segev]

I see a lot of folks here arguing that there's a clear and decisive answer one way or another, and that's just obviously not the case. The point is, this power (like a lot of things in this book) is poorly edited. I mean, this same subclass grants 300 (!!!) feet of Darkvision at lvl 1, to multiple characters, when it's clear they meant to grant 30.

There is no clarity on how this channel divinity works, so frankly, you're going to need to discuss it with your DM.I actually don't see how it's "clear" they intended it to be 30 ft. While 300 feet is huge, it's not outside the realm of possibility. And we have no official word from WotC, to my knowledge. It seems like something that might've gotten a tweet or other mention; surely people have asked.

I am not commenting to balance, nor to anything else. I am just saying that we have no indication that 300 feet was not intended, other than some players boggling that it's a huge number.


Why does it turn the area of Hunger of Hadar into dim light, when the spell states no light can illuminate it?It's a region of "blackness." I don't think it matters what you set the illumination level to, any more than it does in a thick fog. You can't see anything but blackness in the area.

[MaxWilson]

Is there any consensus on how these light sources interact with themselves?

Let's look at a torch:

"A torch burns for 1 hour, providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet. If you make a melee attack with a burning torch and hit, it deals 1 fire damage."

Clearly, "providing" dim light is intended to be additive: the rules are not meant to turn daylight into light obscurement just because there's a torch 30' away.

Dancing Lights is the same way: "Whichever form you choose, each light sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius."

How does that apply to Twilight Cleric? It seems to me that "is filled with dim light" is closer in intent to "provides dim light" and "sheds dim light" than "causes the area to be lightly obscured/only dimly lit." I therefore rule that it works like a torch or Dancing Lights: Twilight Sanctuary increases the illumination level within 30' to at least dim lighting, but doesn't darken bright light to dim.


I see a lot of folks here arguing that there's a clear and decisive answer one way or another, and that's just obviously not the case. The point is, this power (like a lot of things in this book) is poorly edited. I mean, this same subclass grants 300 (!!!) feet of Darkvision at lvl 1, to multiple characters, when it's clear they meant to grant 30.

There is no clarity on how this channel divinity works, so frankly, you're going to need to discuss it with your DM.

Is it clear? Now that you mention it, that would make more sense, but the whole subclass is so overpowered that I wouldn't say it's clear.

[GeoffWatson]

I actually don't see how it's "clear" they intended it to be 30 ft. While 300 feet is huge, it's not outside the realm of possibility. And we have no official word from WotC, to my knowledge. It seems like something that might've gotten a tweet or other mention; surely people have asked.

I am not commenting to balance, nor to anything else. I am just saying that we have no indication that 300 feet was not intended, other than some players boggling that it's a huge number.


The playtest version was unlimited darkvision, so it was reduced to 300'.

[Rukelnikov]

My DM senses tell me to just use the same ruling that Darkness and Daylight have, and just treat all magical lighting as having a power equal to the spell level. In lieu of a spell level, proficiency. The greater power overlaps the weaker, and two equal power levels have a nullified lighting effect.

So the Twilight Zone creates a field of Dim Light until another magical light source overlaps it with a higher spell level/proficiency than your proficiency.

Sounds good to me.


Not sure what the hell is inside of Hunger of Hadar, but I imagine I'd still want to give it its privacy.

Xactly, would likely en up making the PCs roll wisdom saves to stave of insanity if they can somehow "see" it :smalltongue:


It's a region of "blackness." I don't think it matters what you set the illumination level to, any more than it does in a thick fog. You can't see anything but blackness in the area.

Yeah, that's like... I have trouble wrapping my head around "illuminating" it.

[Segev]

Let's look at a torch:

"A torch burns for 1 hour, providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet. If you make a melee attack with a burning torch and hit, it deals 1 fire damage."

Clearly, "providing" dim light is intended to be additive: the rules are not meant to turn daylight into light obscurement just because there's a torch 30' away.

Dancing Lights is the same way: "Whichever form you choose, each light sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius."

How does that apply to Twilight Cleric? It seems to me that "is filled with dim light" is closer in intent to "provides dim light" and "sheds dim light" than "causes the area to be lightly obscured/only dimly lit." I therefore rule that it works like a torch or Dancing Lights: Twilight Sanctuary increases the illumination level within 30' to at least dim lighting, but doesn't darken bright light to dim.I would say the opposite, actually. If they'd said "you shed dim light out to 30 feet," then it would read the say a torch or dancing lights does. But instead it says the area is "filled with dim light." (emphasis added) That implies it actually fixes the illumination level to dim lighting.


Is it clear? Now that you mention it, that would make more sense, but the whole subclass is so overpowered that I wouldn't say it's clear.I couldn't think of a way to say this without being snarky, but it's not an unfair observation.


The playtest version was unlimited darkvision, so it was reduced to 300'.That is interesting to know, and does suggest that 300 feet might well be intentional, since the feature apparently was originally envisioned to be limitless.

[quindraco]

I would say the opposite, actually. If they'd said "you shed dim light out to 30 feet," then it would read the say a torch or dancing lights does. But instead it says the area is "filled with dim light." (emphasis added) That implies it actually fixes the illumination level to dim lighting.

I couldn't think of a way to say this without being snarky, but it's not an unfair observation.

That is interesting to know, and does suggest that 300 feet might well be intentional, since the feature apparently was originally envisioned to be limitless.

FYI, this is not new wording - it's in the PHB. However your GM rules on "fill", they should be consistent. Here are other effects (all spells) that fill with bright light or dim light in the PHB (checking every sourcebook is beyond me); you'll need a ruling on how multiple fills interact when they overlap, if you're choosing to interpret fill as a different verb from the other synonyms various light sources use, like provide and shed:

Hallow (bright)
Moonbeam (dim)
Symbol (dim)

Note that Darkness uses "fill", but has explicit RAW none of the others do, so there's no question how it works and it's a special case dissimilar from the others even before you get to the fact that fill has multiple definitions based on what you're filling with (the word fill is used in a variety of other spells that don't fill with light - Darkness and Web use similar wording, for example).

[Chronic]

The region is filled with dim light, regardless of what light sources are present.

However, any effect which specifies that it overrides or is overridden by spells of a particular level would treat it as not being a spell of that level. It therefore cannot illuminate darkness's AoE, because it is not a spell of level 2+. Daylight likewise neither illuminates it nor dispels it, because it is not a spell effect of level 2 or lower. It is also not extinguished by and will illuminate a Darkmantle's darkness, since it is not a spell effect of 2nd level or lower and is not natural light.
Except it's not a spell, it's a channel divinity. And when you consider that channel divinity can neither be dispelled or counterspelled, why would a darkness spell do anything? And it clearly override natural light anyway, why would it be different for magical light or darkness? That's the entire concept behind the domain and it's a niche effect.

[Segev]

Except it's not a spell, it's a channel divinity. And when you consider that channel divinity can neither be dispelled or counterspelled, why would a darkness spell do anything? And it clearly override natural light anyway, why would it be different for magical light or darkness? That's the entire concept behind the domain and it's a niche effect.

Actually, good point. Darkness only says nonmagical light cannot illuminate it. This is magical light, and it is not a spell of 2nd level or lower, so it is not dispelled.

[Keravath]

FYI, this is not new wording - it's in the PHB. However your GM rules on "fill", they should be consistent. Here are other effects (all spells) that fill with bright light or dim light in the PHB (checking every sourcebook is beyond me); you'll need a ruling on how multiple fills interact when they overlap, if you're choosing to interpret fill as a different verb from the other synonyms various light sources use, like provide and shed:

Hallow (bright)
Moonbeam (dim)
Symbol (dim)

Note that Darkness uses "fill", but has explicit RAW none of the others do, so there's no question how it works and it's a special case dissimilar from the others even before you get to the fact that fill has multiple definitions based on what you're filling with (the word fill is used in a variety of other spells that don't fill with light - Darkness and Web use similar wording, for example).

Fills is not the same as shed or provides ...

Just curious how you would rule the following:

Inside a hallow spell - I erect a small room which is completely blocked on all sides. Is this room dark because light can't get in or is it lit because the Hallow spell fills the area of effect with bright light?

Similarly, if I erect a similar room in a region of darkness caused by the Hallow spell can it be illuminated with a light source?

In both cases, I would say no because the spell text says that the area is "filled" with the particular type of illumination or lack of it rather than saying that a particular source emits, sheds or provides light.

---

Personally, I would just rule that any effect that says an area is filled with a particular level of illumination is not imposing a light source that can cause shadows but a lighting condition throughout the entire space. Fills is NOT a synonym for sheds, emits or provides.

[quindraco]

Fills is not the same as shed or provides ...

Just curious how you would rule the following:

Inside a hallow spell - I erect a small room which is completely blocked on all sides. Is this room dark because light can't get in or is it lit because the Hallow spell fills the area of effect with bright light?

Similarly, if I erect a similar room in a region of darkness caused by the Hallow spell can it be illuminated with a light source?

In both cases, I would say no because the spell text says that the area is "filled" with the particular type of illumination or lack of it rather than saying that a particular source emits, sheds or provides light.

---

Personally, I would just rule that any effect that says an area is filled with a particular level of illumination is not imposing a light source that can cause shadows but a lighting condition throughout the entire space. Fills is NOT a synonym for sheds, emits or provides.

That's not the interesting question. The interesting question is how a Hallow effect overlapping with a Symbol effect works. It's not interesting how to mechanically obey the word "fill" - and I agree with you, I would have every grid cube in the area functionally emit the light, so everything was lit up. What is interesting and what the plethora of threads like this are generally about is what happens when a bright light source such as Hallow or just normal daylight overlaps with a dim light filler like the Twilight cleric's channel divinity, Moonbeam, or Symbol.

My personal ruling is decidedly that light in 5E always works the same way, so brightest light "wins". I've met numerous people online who want the dim light to win so stuff like Shadow Blade is buffed.

[Segev]

That's not the interesting question. The interesting question is how a Hallow effect overlapping with a Symbol effect works. It's not interesting how to mechanically obey the word "fill" - and I agree with you, I would have every grid cube in the area functionally emit the light, so everything was lit up. What is interesting and what the plethora of threads like this are generally about is what happens when a bright light source such as Hallow or just normal daylight overlaps with a dim light filler like the Twilight cleric's channel divinity, Moonbeam, or Symbol.

My personal ruling is decidedly that light in 5E always works the same way, so brightest light "wins". I've met numerous people online who want the dim light to win so stuff like Shadow Blade is buffed.

If there is no clear way to read interaction or precedent, I would go with whatever effect is higher level and/or more costly to use. Failing ability to gauge that, I would have the casters engage in a key ability stat roll-off, with proficiency.

[quindraco]

If there is no clear way to read interaction or precedent, I would go with whatever effect is higher level and/or more costly to use. Failing ability to gauge that, I would have the casters engage in a key ability stat roll-off, with proficiency.

How would have dancing lights interact with a torch? How would you have the light spell interact with a candle?

I think the only sane reading in general is that photons are photons and brightest light applies unless it's told not to, like with Darkness.

[ATHATH]

Well, if you are under direct sunlight, and fire up a torch, the torch will emit dim light around you. That doesn't mean that the area becomes less bright.
Yeah, from my perspective, it looks like this ability is just a source of dim light, not something that sets the light level around you to dim. Holding a dim lighter in an area of bright light doesn't make the bright light darker, so why should a magical source of dim light do that (without explicitly stating that it does that)?

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, from my perspective, it looks like this ability is just a source of dim light, not something that sets the light level around you to dim. Holding a dim lighter in an area of bright light doesn't make the bright light darker, so why should a magical source of dim light do that (without explicitly stating that it does that)?

Because it's cool.

There's also nothing saying that Darkness casts a shadow (or any illusion, for that matter), we just assume it does because it's cooler (at least, some of us do, but that's another can of worms).

I, personally, like the idea of the Twilight Zone creating an area of dim light. It makes sense for the class, it's unique, and it supports other Twilight powers (the darkness flight). We're getting down to the point where we're trying to define physics manipulated by magic, when it all is going to boil down to one nerd's opinion at a table.

[MaxWilson]

I would say the opposite, actually. If they'd said "you shed dim light out to 30 feet," then it would read the say a torch or dancing lights does. But instead it says the area is "filled with dim light." (emphasis added) That implies it actually fixes the illumination level to dim lighting.

Could you explain WHY "filled with" strikes you as implying subtraction rather than addition whereas "provides" doesn't? If it said "filled only with" I would agree with you, but to me "fill with" implies the exact same thing as "provide with" or "shed". If I fill everyone's cup with water halfway, that doesn't imply that I dump the water out of cups that are already 90% full. I just guarantee that half full is the new minimum.


FYI, this is not new wording - it's in the PHB. However your GM rules on "fill", they should be consistent. Here are other effects (all spells) that fill with bright light or dim light in the PHB (checking every sourcebook is beyond me); you'll need a ruling on how multiple fills interact when they overlap, if you're choosing to interpret fill as a different verb from the other synonyms various light sources use, like provide and shed:

Hallow (bright)
Moonbeam (dim)
Symbol (dim)

*Snip*

Nice catch.

[da newt]

To be perfectly honest this needs an errata. We can all argue about how we interpret the words as written, but until WotC provide an official ruling it could be reasonably interpreted to act as a source of dim light, or a source of shadow partially obscuring bright light, or both.

Personally I like the idea that it creates a bubble of dim light which brightens darkness and dims bright light, but I cannot say with certainty that that is RAI.



And then there is the question of precedence - which sources of light and darkness and shadow/dim light are more powerful?

What happens when a cleric with twilight sanctuary active and wielding a flame tongue casts darkness on themselves outside in a downpour at noon?

[Man_Over_Game]

To be perfectly honest this needs an errata. We can all argue about how we interpret the words as written, but until WotC provide an official ruling it could be reasonably interpreted to act as a source of dim light, or a source of shadow partially obscuring bright light, or both.

Personally I like the idea that it creates a bubble of dim light which brightens darkness and dims bright light, but I cannot say with certainty that that is RAI.



And then there is the question of precedence - which sources of light and darkness and shadow/dim light are more powerful?

What happens when a cleric with twilight sanctuary active and wielding a flame tongue casts darkness on themselves outside in a downpour at noon?

I'd just treat each spell to use its spell level, or each non-spell to use its proficiency.

So a level 2 Darkness bubble and a Twilight Zone from a level 2 Cleric are equals.

[Sepaulchre]

Unless otherwise specified by a rule or effect, I would go with:

1. Higher light levels illuminate lower light levels.
2. Magical light effects of any light level overrule non-magical effects.
3. Higher level spell effects overrule lower level spell effects.

Ex. 1.1. Torches illuminate a dark night.
Ex. 1.2. A 4th level Daylight spell illuminates a 4th level Darkness spell. Neither is dispelled.
Ex. 2. Twilight Sanctuary is filled entirely with dim light even if the Twilight Cleric is holding a lit torch.
Ex. 3. A 5th level Darkness spell creates magical darkness in the area that it overlaps a 4th level Daylight spell.

Rule 3 is shaky on RAW. In the Spells section of the SRD, it says:

“Spell Level: Every spell has a level from 0 to 9. A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is...”

“Combing Magical Effects: The Effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The Effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.”

I infer from this rule that the most potent effect from mutually-exclusive different spells should also apply.

Each proposed rule is of course also limited by any specific rules that apply because of the context.

Just my 2 cents.

[Segev]

How would have dancing lights interact with a torch? How would you have the light spell interact with a candle?

I think the only sane reading in general is that photons are photons and brightest light applies unless it's told not to, like with Darkness.No, you're missing the key difference, here: dancing lights, like a torch, emits/sheds light. The Twilight Cleric power "fills" a space with dim light. These are two different things.


Yeah, from my perspective, it looks like this ability is just a source of dim light, not something that sets the light level around you to dim. Holding a dim lighter in an area of bright light doesn't make the bright light darker, so why should a magical source of dim light do that (without explicitly stating that it does that)?Nothing in the ability says "shed," "emit," "radiate," or "source." It says "fills."

If something sheds light, then it can't make things dimmer. If something fills a space with a particular light level, and that light level is lower than the ambient light level, it can make that area dimmer.

Effects which specify that it requires magical light of a particular spell level or higher to illuminate them cannot have their light level set by the Twilight Cleric's effect because it is not a spell of sufficient level. Effects which specify they fill an area with a light level, however, with no discussion that touches on what other effects that also fill the area with a light level do in interaction, require adjudication, because they conflict without a tie-breaker. My own tie-breaker would be first effective power/level/cost of the effect (which may require further judgment calls on the DM's part), followed by a roll-off of d20+prof. bonus+key ability modifier between the originators of the effects.

But again, the dancing lights comparison doesn't work because it uses different terminology and does different things. It doesn't fill an area with dim light. It sheds dim light. The Twilight Cleric power - no matter how broken it may be - fills the area with dim light. Different verb.

[da newt]

"As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light."

If it weren't for the first sentence, it would be much simpler to argue that it creates an AoE of shadow/dim light. ('a sphere of {twi}light emanates from you.') I think it's really a matter of by RAW is twilight / dim light a light source (weak illumination) and/or a source of shadow?





WRT precedence, for spell effects using the highest lvl wins and natural causes are weaker than magic is pretty simple but what about a channel divinity, racial, or magic item?

[Sepaulchre]

WRT precedence, for spell effects using the highest lvl wins and natural causes are weaker than magic is pretty simple but what about a channel divinity, racial, or magic item?

The RAW simply runs out at this point. It's up to DM fiat.

In my opinion, if its a racial or magical item spell effect, I would assume that the spell is cast at the lowest level possible, and treat that as the spell level. Otherwise, I would treat magical light or darkness from those sources as equivalent, so that the highest light level wins. Where the rules of magic run out, returning to the background principles of The Environment seems most reasonable.

Hence a 4th-level Daylight spell causes bright light even if it overlaps with a 4th-level Darkness spell. Similarly, Daylight and Continual Flame cause bright light in the area covered by Twilight Sanctuary.

I would probably treat artifacts, given their unique and unusual nature, as an exception and rule that they generally trump other magical sources.