Escribblings
2021-04-08, 09:37 PM
The Battlerager is widely regarded as a weak or niche subclass, and not particularly suited to multiclassing.
This post is more of a case of rubber duck debugging, but I felt it might also be beneficial to others. Feel free to comment on this.
One of the benefits of choosing to dip or full MC into fighter is to pick up fighting styles, but at the sacrifice of ASIs you can get them through Fighting Initiate feat from TCoE. it doesn't say anything about it, so I presume that you could stack this feat to choose multiple fighting styles.
Color codes (based on my desires)
Gold = Desirable
Blue = Beneficial
Black = Meh
Levels
Proficiency
(Primary Class)
Rages
Rage
Damage
Barbarian
Features
Fighter
Features
0 / 20
+6
-
-
-
Extra Attack (3)
1 / 19
+2
2
+2
Rage, Unarmored Defence
ASI/Feat
2 / 18
+2
2
+2
Reckless Attack, Danger Sense
Survivor
3 / 17
+2
3
+2
Battlerager Armor
Action Surge (2 uses), Indomitable (3 uses)
4 / 16
+2
3
+2
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
5 / 15
+3
3
+2
Extra Attack (1), Fast Movement
Superior Critical (18-20)
6 / 14
+3
4
+2
Reckless Abandon
ASI/Feat
7 / 13
+3
4
+2
Feral Instinct
Indomitable (2 uses)
8 / 12
+3
4
+2
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
9 / 11
+4
4
+3
Brutal Critical (1 die)
Extra Attack (2)
10 / 10
+4
4
+3
Battlerager Charge
Additional Fighting Style
11 / 9
+4
4
+3
Relentless Rage
Indomitable (1 use)
12 / 8
+4
5
+3
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
13 / 7
+5
5
+3
Brutal Critical (2 dice)
Remarkable Athlete
14 / 6
+5
5
+3
Spiked Retribution
ASI/Feat
15 / 5
+5
5
+3
Persistent Rage
Extra Attack (1)
16 / 4
+5
5
+4
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
17 / 3
+6
6
+4
Brutal Critical (3 dice)
Improved Critical (19-20)
18 / 2
+6
6
+4
Indomitable Might
Action Surge (1 use)
19 / 1
+6
6
+4
ASI/Feat
Fighting Style, Second Wind
20 / 0
+6
Unlimited
+4
Primal Champion
-
I honestly feel these 2 classes do have some synergy.
It's just deciding where to split them. As far as fighting styles are concerned, I see two options:
1-handed weapon and shield
2 handed weapon
So fighting styles. I'm not interested in any of the optional fighting styles, they don't add anything for me. From the basic styles, Archery and Two-weapon Fighting can also get lost, and Protection is a bit too situational for me.
That leaves
Defense - +1 AC, what's not to like
Duelling - Benefits shield users, +2 damage on 1-handed weapons (actually better for some versatile weapons (longsword/warhammer))
Great Weapon Fighting - minor benefit to 2 handed weapons, the greatsword benefits the most.
The question then is whether to go with a 1d8/10 versatile weapon, a 1d12 great weapon, or a 2d6 great weapon.
Duelling means additional critical damage die are d8s, max brutal critical would be 5d8+2, but AC is increased by 2
Great Weapon Fighting gives a dilemma. With a Greatsword, max brutal critical would be 7d6, but with a Greataxe would be 5d12. Rerolling 1s & 2s on the Greatsword could put the average rolls above the greats axe, etc... and would certainly give a more even spread, but would definitely sacrifice nova damage.
The Battlerager Armor basically gives the Two-Weapon Fighting style, without the dual wielder feat, TWF limits you to 2x 1d6 weapons. The Battlerager armor may only be a 1d4, but it means the primary attack can be a 1d8+2, 1d10, or 1d12. Although, unless the DM is on board with magical armor imparting its bonus to the attack/damage as well as the AC, 2 high level magic weapons *might* overtake it.
Feats are the next area of choice:
If not dual classing, then taking the Fighting Initiate feat once, or even twice, could make sense
For multiclassing there are a few of interest
Great Weapon Master - Turns your 1d4 Armor attack into a 1d10/1d12 Weapon attack on a critical hit, plus the option to add 10 to damage (with a +5 penalty to the attack)
Medium Armor Master - Increase max AC Dex bonus from +2 to +3, so AC+1 and removes stealth penalty.
Crusher - Increase STR or CON by 1, pushback 5' 1ce per turn on bludgeoning damage, attack rolls against target have advantage until your next turn on critical bludgeoning damage.
Piercer - Increase STR or DEX by 1, re-roll damage dice 1ce per turn (use new roll), 1 extra damage die on critical with a piercing weapon
Savage Attacker - Reroll damage dice 1ce per turn (use either total)
Slasher - Increase STR or DEX by 1, reduce target speed by 10' 1ce per turn, on critical slashing damage, target has disadvantage on all attacks until your next turn.
Using the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and a mountain dwarf (+2 CON, +2 STR), and up to 7 ASIs/Feats. We can start with a STR and DEX of 17 and 14.
This only needs 1 ASI and a feat to hit 20 STR, leaving the Barbarian 3 ASIs/Feats available. The Fighter gets up to 5, plus 2 fighting styles. If the Barb burns to feats on fighting styles, that leaves 1 ASI/Feat. However, the Barb's capstone is equivalent to 4 ASIs, and raises the stat caps from 20 to 24!
Working out the split points is tricky.
Anything below 3/17 is pointless as the extra rage damage is vastly outweighed by the fighters 3rd attack.
3/17 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 2 surges, 2, fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18
4/16 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 7 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gains an ASI/Feat, but seriously delays the first extra attack.
5/15 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gets the extra attack at the right time, but loses an ASI/Feat.
6/14 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
8/12 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
9/11 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die
12/8 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die
13/7 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice
16/4 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice
17/3 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +3 crit dice
Going past 17 halves the chance of a crit, and unless you take it to 19 , loses an ASI/Feat, might as well go to 20 if you're doing that.
Based on the above, I think Battleragaer 9 / Champion 11 is a good split.
STR 20 (using 1 ASI), DEX 16
Defense / Great Weapon Fighting
Great Weapon Master / Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI
AC = 14+3+1 = 18
3 attacks at 1d12+10(GWM)+5(STR)+3(Rage) = 90 max, On crit = 3d12+10+5+3 (max 162 (plus 1d12 for piercer (pike))) and bonus attack changes from 1d4+5+3 to 1d12+10+5+3.
With advantage from reckless attack, crit on 19 or 20, and an action surge, there is a good chance of critting.
Defense / Duelling
Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI x2
Shield
AC = 14+3+1+2 = 20
3 attacks at 1d8+2+5+3 = 48 max, on crit = 3d8+2+5+3 (max 102 (plus 1d8 for piercer)), bonus attack = 1d4+5+3
A 2 AC penalty, but half the damage output makes the GWF very appealing to me.
However, a Frenzy Barb gets to use their Weapon as a bonus attack all the time, and dropping the GWM feat drops the max damage from 3 attacks from 90 to 60, much closer to the 48 of the dueller.
And if a dueller picks up a +3 shield, and the GM allows for +3 Battlerager armor, you're looking at an AC of 26! +5 AC vs +12 max damage (ignoring crits) makes it a much tougher decision.
Then there's the path to get to Level 20 - long and arduous, and unlikely to happen, so do you go to Barb 9, then go fighter?, do you dip fighter early to pick up a fighting style?
Or do you decide you only need a 3 level dip to pick up the improved critical and a fighting style, and burn a feat for the second fighting style (if you want it?)
This post is more of a case of rubber duck debugging, but I felt it might also be beneficial to others. Feel free to comment on this.
One of the benefits of choosing to dip or full MC into fighter is to pick up fighting styles, but at the sacrifice of ASIs you can get them through Fighting Initiate feat from TCoE. it doesn't say anything about it, so I presume that you could stack this feat to choose multiple fighting styles.
Color codes (based on my desires)
Gold = Desirable
Blue = Beneficial
Black = Meh
Levels
Proficiency
(Primary Class)
Rages
Rage
Damage
Barbarian
Features
Fighter
Features
0 / 20
+6
-
-
-
Extra Attack (3)
1 / 19
+2
2
+2
Rage, Unarmored Defence
ASI/Feat
2 / 18
+2
2
+2
Reckless Attack, Danger Sense
Survivor
3 / 17
+2
3
+2
Battlerager Armor
Action Surge (2 uses), Indomitable (3 uses)
4 / 16
+2
3
+2
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
5 / 15
+3
3
+2
Extra Attack (1), Fast Movement
Superior Critical (18-20)
6 / 14
+3
4
+2
Reckless Abandon
ASI/Feat
7 / 13
+3
4
+2
Feral Instinct
Indomitable (2 uses)
8 / 12
+3
4
+2
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
9 / 11
+4
4
+3
Brutal Critical (1 die)
Extra Attack (2)
10 / 10
+4
4
+3
Battlerager Charge
Additional Fighting Style
11 / 9
+4
4
+3
Relentless Rage
Indomitable (1 use)
12 / 8
+4
5
+3
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
13 / 7
+5
5
+3
Brutal Critical (2 dice)
Remarkable Athlete
14 / 6
+5
5
+3
Spiked Retribution
ASI/Feat
15 / 5
+5
5
+3
Persistent Rage
Extra Attack (1)
16 / 4
+5
5
+4
ASI/Feat
ASI/Feat
17 / 3
+6
6
+4
Brutal Critical (3 dice)
Improved Critical (19-20)
18 / 2
+6
6
+4
Indomitable Might
Action Surge (1 use)
19 / 1
+6
6
+4
ASI/Feat
Fighting Style, Second Wind
20 / 0
+6
Unlimited
+4
Primal Champion
-
I honestly feel these 2 classes do have some synergy.
It's just deciding where to split them. As far as fighting styles are concerned, I see two options:
1-handed weapon and shield
2 handed weapon
So fighting styles. I'm not interested in any of the optional fighting styles, they don't add anything for me. From the basic styles, Archery and Two-weapon Fighting can also get lost, and Protection is a bit too situational for me.
That leaves
Defense - +1 AC, what's not to like
Duelling - Benefits shield users, +2 damage on 1-handed weapons (actually better for some versatile weapons (longsword/warhammer))
Great Weapon Fighting - minor benefit to 2 handed weapons, the greatsword benefits the most.
The question then is whether to go with a 1d8/10 versatile weapon, a 1d12 great weapon, or a 2d6 great weapon.
Duelling means additional critical damage die are d8s, max brutal critical would be 5d8+2, but AC is increased by 2
Great Weapon Fighting gives a dilemma. With a Greatsword, max brutal critical would be 7d6, but with a Greataxe would be 5d12. Rerolling 1s & 2s on the Greatsword could put the average rolls above the greats axe, etc... and would certainly give a more even spread, but would definitely sacrifice nova damage.
The Battlerager Armor basically gives the Two-Weapon Fighting style, without the dual wielder feat, TWF limits you to 2x 1d6 weapons. The Battlerager armor may only be a 1d4, but it means the primary attack can be a 1d8+2, 1d10, or 1d12. Although, unless the DM is on board with magical armor imparting its bonus to the attack/damage as well as the AC, 2 high level magic weapons *might* overtake it.
Feats are the next area of choice:
If not dual classing, then taking the Fighting Initiate feat once, or even twice, could make sense
For multiclassing there are a few of interest
Great Weapon Master - Turns your 1d4 Armor attack into a 1d10/1d12 Weapon attack on a critical hit, plus the option to add 10 to damage (with a +5 penalty to the attack)
Medium Armor Master - Increase max AC Dex bonus from +2 to +3, so AC+1 and removes stealth penalty.
Crusher - Increase STR or CON by 1, pushback 5' 1ce per turn on bludgeoning damage, attack rolls against target have advantage until your next turn on critical bludgeoning damage.
Piercer - Increase STR or DEX by 1, re-roll damage dice 1ce per turn (use new roll), 1 extra damage die on critical with a piercing weapon
Savage Attacker - Reroll damage dice 1ce per turn (use either total)
Slasher - Increase STR or DEX by 1, reduce target speed by 10' 1ce per turn, on critical slashing damage, target has disadvantage on all attacks until your next turn.
Using the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and a mountain dwarf (+2 CON, +2 STR), and up to 7 ASIs/Feats. We can start with a STR and DEX of 17 and 14.
This only needs 1 ASI and a feat to hit 20 STR, leaving the Barbarian 3 ASIs/Feats available. The Fighter gets up to 5, plus 2 fighting styles. If the Barb burns to feats on fighting styles, that leaves 1 ASI/Feat. However, the Barb's capstone is equivalent to 4 ASIs, and raises the stat caps from 20 to 24!
Working out the split points is tricky.
Anything below 3/17 is pointless as the extra rage damage is vastly outweighed by the fighters 3rd attack.
3/17 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 2 surges, 2, fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18
4/16 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 7 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gains an ASI/Feat, but seriously delays the first extra attack.
5/15 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 18 - gets the extra attack at the right time, but loses an ASI/Feat.
6/14 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
8/12 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19
9/11 - 3 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 2 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die
12/8 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 6 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +1 crit die
13/7 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice
16/4 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +2 crit dice
17/3 - 2 attacks + bonus attack, 1 surge, 1 fight styles, 5 ASIs/Feats, crits on 19, +3 crit dice
Going past 17 halves the chance of a crit, and unless you take it to 19 , loses an ASI/Feat, might as well go to 20 if you're doing that.
Based on the above, I think Battleragaer 9 / Champion 11 is a good split.
STR 20 (using 1 ASI), DEX 16
Defense / Great Weapon Fighting
Great Weapon Master / Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI
AC = 14+3+1 = 18
3 attacks at 1d12+10(GWM)+5(STR)+3(Rage) = 90 max, On crit = 3d12+10+5+3 (max 162 (plus 1d12 for piercer (pike))) and bonus attack changes from 1d4+5+3 to 1d12+10+5+3.
With advantage from reckless attack, crit on 19 or 20, and an action surge, there is a good chance of critting.
Defense / Duelling
Medium Armor Master / Choice of Crusher/Piercer/Slasher / Choice of any other Feat/ASI x2
Shield
AC = 14+3+1+2 = 20
3 attacks at 1d8+2+5+3 = 48 max, on crit = 3d8+2+5+3 (max 102 (plus 1d8 for piercer)), bonus attack = 1d4+5+3
A 2 AC penalty, but half the damage output makes the GWF very appealing to me.
However, a Frenzy Barb gets to use their Weapon as a bonus attack all the time, and dropping the GWM feat drops the max damage from 3 attacks from 90 to 60, much closer to the 48 of the dueller.
And if a dueller picks up a +3 shield, and the GM allows for +3 Battlerager armor, you're looking at an AC of 26! +5 AC vs +12 max damage (ignoring crits) makes it a much tougher decision.
Then there's the path to get to Level 20 - long and arduous, and unlikely to happen, so do you go to Barb 9, then go fighter?, do you dip fighter early to pick up a fighting style?
Or do you decide you only need a 3 level dip to pick up the improved critical and a fighting style, and burn a feat for the second fighting style (if you want it?)