Belkar/Minrah

[arimareiji]

After noticing the third item during a reread, I got curious how many other details of Belkar and Minrah's interactions I may have missed that others think are worth mention. Please feel free to add on, regardless of your take*.

I don't mind that my speculations can always be way off course, but I'd hate it if they are because I missed something.


1094:2,4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1094.html) - Fairly standard party introduction, Belkar is a smart@** to Minrah.
1115 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) - Minrah notices Belkar is taking the vampire arc personally; Belkar opens up and vents big-time.
1123:8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1123.html) - Ponchula claims the dominated Belkar "barely needed a push" to stab Minrah.
1132:last (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html) - After Durkon says he's been wanting to punch his own face, Minrah asks Durkon if everyone in the group has "weird emotional issues" (likely a call-back to 1115).
1188:6-7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) - Belkar asks to sit in with Minrah as Elan recaps.
1191:5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html) - Belkar brings up including Minrah (after Roy mentions .
1194 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html) - Friendly conversation, they mostly commiserate.


* - I don't want my take to get in the way of people talking about canon events...personally my principal speculation remains that one of the main reasons Minrah is in the story is because she can see Belkar in any light other than "This is what he's always been like and always will be" (viz 1194). I fully expect her to be horrified by the party's initial reaction when Belkar bites it, especially if a secondary speculation comes true that he knowingly sacrifices himself rather than passively waiting for death to take him. Roy kinda gave it away, and even Belkar is capable of reflecting -- heck, Roy just recently pointed out that Belkar is sometimes too clever by half.

Edit: Links fixed, thanks for the point-out, going to bed (^_^)/

[dancrilis]

Three of your links point to 1115.

Also they have an interaction here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1199.html) (panel 7) and here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html) (panel 15).

I wouldn't read anything to much into it personally - but I suspect that when/if Belkar dies the order will have a reaction beyond apathy with or without Minrah's involvement.

[Metastachydium]

Minrah is in the story is because she can see Belkar in any light other than "This is what he's always been like and always will be"

I don't know. Their first interaction consists of Belkar unloading a string of very hostile, demeaning and somewhat sexist remarksn on her (most importantly „[l]isten, honey, it's not like we need your weak low-level ass to – (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1094.html)”). Later on he demonstrates a complete inability to understand her grief (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1100.html) and he drops several (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html) hints (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) in Minrah's presence which make it clear that he likes to solve his problems through excessive amounts of violence. It does look like Minrah doesn't perceive him as a monster, but I can't quite see why.

[Dr.Zero]

And here I thought this thread was about the ship.

Anyway, yes, I agree: Minrah is the alien - like Spock and Data, logic aside, to humans; not like the chestbuster monster- of the situation, the one who can see the things in a different perspective, namely what they are now and not what they are according to past knowledge. Her late speech to B was, indeed, pointing out exactly that: B is to her -who started to interact with him only recently -what he is now, and not what he is for the other members of the OOTS.

[arimareiji]

Three of your links point to 1115.

Also they have an interaction here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1199.html) (panel 7) and here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html) (panel 15).

I wouldn't read anything to much into it personally - but I suspect that when/if Belkar dies the order will have a reaction beyond apathy with or without Minrah's involvement.
Thank you for the callout, and for pointing out two interactions you felt were worth mention. As I noted, we agree in thinking the order will have a noteworthy initial reaction and not just apathy. (My guess is it'll be a mixed bag, but enough of it will be callous that it horrifies Minrah.)


I don't know. Their first interaction consists of Belkar unloading a string of very hostile, demeaning and somewhat sexist remarksn on her (most importantly „[l]isten, honey, it's not like we need your weak low-level ass to – (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1094.html)”). Later on he demonstrates a complete inability to understand her grief (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1100.html) and he drops several (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html) hints (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) in Minrah's presence which make it clear that he likes to solve his problems through excessive amounts of violence.

Those are true events that happen during the start of their interactions, although the spin may be* going a little far in finding ways to cast Belkar in the worst possible light.
* - But on the other hand, Ponchula's assertion is left out. Imo it might be one of the worst elements (if Minrah believes it), even if you take it at face value with no spin.


It does look like Minrah doesn't perceive him as a monster, but I can't quite see why.
I'd speculate it's for the reason I cited, which you quoted. She has an apparently-uncommon capacity for it.


Anyway, yes, I agree: Minrah is the alien - like Spock and Data, logic aside, to humans; not like the chestbuster monster- of the situation, the one who can see the things in a different perspective, namely what they are now and not what they are according to past knowledge. Her late speech to B was, indeed, pointing out exactly that: B is to her -who started to interact with him only recently -what he is now, and not what he is for the other members of the OOTS.
Thank you, I think "alien" in a non-pejorative sense is a really useful lens through which to see her. And worth further examination.
If memory serves, humans have provided the harshest examples in terms of assuming Belkar is incapable of change**. I'd find it really interesting if the Giant is painting a picture in which there are wide variations† within every D&D race, but Sigdi was right -- humans skew toward a different perspective than dwarves††.

** - But somewhat weirdly, humans are the aliens to Belkar -- although (at least nominally) not to the readers.

† - Shojo apparently thought him capable of change, extremely so if you believe Belkar's "hippie vision quest mode" was anything more than a figment of Belkar's imagination.

†† - What really blows my mind is that dwarven society is extremely lawful, which some associate with being extremely judgmental (viz Miko). But look at Minrah, who castigates the "stupid judgy faces" of those who can't accept people as capable of change... and appears to be the opposite of Miko, wrt "willing to accept people for who they choose to be now instead of who I've already judged them to be". I'd love it if this really is the story being told, not just my spin.

[Mike Havran]

It does look like Minrah doesn't perceive him as a monster, but I can't quite see why. Minrah seems to share the optimistic outlook about others that made Durkon friendly with both Hilgya and, later, Malack.

[Scottzg]

It does look like Minrah doesn't perceive him as a monster, but I can't quite see why.
Minrah only knows reformed Belkar. She explains it herself in 1194 panel 10,11-


Panel 5

Belkar: Not that I've, uh, managed that most of the time.
Minrah: That's OK. I'm sure you did your best.
Belkar: Eh, I'm not really the "do your best" type, as I'm sure the others would tell you.

Panel 6

Minrah: Don't say that! That's loser talk!
Minrah: You're not a type! You're a person, a person who does stuff! If you want to be different, do different stuff!

Panel 7

Minrah: Look at me. I used to be a town guard, and then I decided I wanted to be a cleric.
Minrah: Did everyone I know tell me, "Oh, I don't really think you're the type to be a cleric"? Yes! Did I listen to them? No!
Minrah: I mean, I listened, or else I wouldn't have known they said it. But it didn't stop me! And now I'm a cleric.

Panel 8

Minrah: If anyone tells you that you can't be better if you want to be, you punch them in their stupid judgy face!
Minrah: No, wait. That's an overreaction.
Minrah: You tell them to mind their own business, and then you go out there and be as better as you want to be!

Panel 9

Belkar: Hell yeah. I never gave a damn what they thought about what I did before. Why start now?
Minrah: Screw the haters!
Belkar: Preach it, sister!
Minrah: I already am, because I'm a cleric!

Panel 10

Minrah: And you know what the best part is?
Minrah: When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on?
Minrah: Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice.

Panel 11

Minrah: I've got a whole bunch of new friends now, and not one of them thinks of me as just a dumb town guard.

[Ruck]

Largely agreed with the spoiler, without being sure of the details, but I think the idea is correct.


Minrah only knows reformed Belkar. She explains it herself in 1194 panel 10,11-



Agreed with this too.

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, even "reformed" Belkar still doesn't seem that great in isolation, and examples were provided where he himself implies he is (or at least used to be) quite a bit worse. I don't think it's strange to ask why she apparently hasn't picked up on this.