Thoughts on a Persona-esque D&D homebrew?

[Calemyr]

So, I think we can all agree that COVID sucks, yeah? Once things die down and we can get some semblance of life together, I would really like to go back to my gaming store and DM a campaign. And, like a man dying of starvation may dream of feasts, I have been thinking about what kinds of campaigns I might propose, and one is sticking in my head: a blend of D&D and the Persona video game series. I'd like to get an outside opinion if this sounds like it'd be fun or just stupid.

The basic idea is to take a modern, "normal" world. Suddenly an event (nobody agrees on what it was) occurs and the world kinda just breaks. Monsters are suddenly real, and firearms are really not much more effective than a heavy stick might be. Rumors and folk legends are walking down main street. A raccoon sighting turns out to have been bigfoot. And a handful of individuals who survived ground zero have gained access to Eidolons - spiritual representations of the global imagination that have given them surprising abilities and knowledge. In this new world, those with an Eidolon are the top of the food chain. Now the question is what will they do?

That's the concept anyway. Players take the role of a "modern" character. A security guard, maybe, or a cheerleader or the cashier at the local gas station. They are given the opportunity to decide on an Eidolon - which is pretty much anything distinct in cultural mind. From Zeus to Puck to Anansi to Spiderman, if a lot of people envision the same basic thing when you mention the name, it'll probably work. The Eidolon acts as kind of a non-combat pet/advisor to the player, and gives them access to a small subset of suitable D&D classes to take on. The knowledge, talents, and skills conferred by the class are intended to be alien to the character, meaning that a cheerleader with a suitable Eidolon could become a barbarian or a wizard (couldn't get a C+ in Spanish class, now fluent in Draconic...).

The mechanics I'm thinking here is everyone starts human and rolls 1d6+7 for stats. Upon obtaining an Eidolon, you point buy an extra 1-6 points to each stat to suit the Eidolon's nature. If, over the course of the campaign, you change Eidolons, you they would provide a different set of bonus stats, but your original 1d6+7 would not change. This would allow a player to change their class while still being beholden to their basic character. Changing Eidolons, however, is meant to be a very difficult ordeal requiring serious personal trauma as well as fortitude. If an Eidolon has a racial bias, a character bonded to it might also become that race. Like perhaps a wielder of the king of fairies might become an elf or gnome. Eidolons, however, are only representations of cultural icons, not the real McCoy. Having Thor as your Eidolon doesn't mean you have a literal god in your corner, for example, just that you have access to classes that thematically suit Thor and your Eidolon will encourage your use of hammers and cheer you on if you decide to kick ass in glorious fashion. Perhaps he might even scold you if you are disrespectful to a valkyrie. He will not be more powerful than a phoenix, however, or even a pixie.

The campaign concept itself is pretty open-ended. First session or so are about the Event, from the perspective of the players, and meeting their Eidolons. After that, the players set the goals with clues/suggestions provided by the DM. Try to figure out what happened and how to bring life back to normal? Sure. Try to get out into the world and figure out how to help the populace survive an imaginary apocalypse? Yep. Build a post-apocalyptic empire where having an imaginary friend makes you one of the top dogs? Roll the dice. Use the fact that your Eidolon is Jesus to resurrect the televangelism industry? Well, if the other players are cool with that...

HP is a measure of supernatural luck and endurance, not bodily injury. You've got your CON score in life points, and those do represent bodily injury, but that is only depleted at 0 HP. Recovering HP is easy, recovering LP is much harder. Those that do not have an Eidolon have no HP, which makes killing and/or critically injuring them a lot easier, even if they're decked out in the finest body armor.

Firearms would be weaker, at least against monsters and eidolon users. One thought was that some physical laws have changed, such as force going from being mass*acceleration^2 to being 2*mass*acceleration, but that might be too derivative.

That's the basic idea I'm playing with. Any thoughts? Too fiddly? Too complicated? I wanted to give whatever table I end up fielding at least one option with significant room for character freedom, though it will be offered alongside a few more classically structured settings and campaigns, so maybe they won't even choose it. Still, it's been a fun mental exercise if nothing else.

[Old Harry MTX]

I'm fresh from a run at Persona 4 Golden, so I like your idea. I don't like doing world building so much, but the idea of transcribing some Persona mechanics in a DeD class is a wet dream of mine. On one hand, a mechanic that let you gain Personae by defeating enemies or by fusing them in the Velvet Room, and that gives you features and spells depending on the Persona equipped, on the other hand, although difficult to create and manage, a system of Social Links to unlocks some special class features to perform with your allies....

[Martin Greywolf]

The basic idea is to take a modern, "normal" world. Suddenly an event (nobody agrees on what it was) occurs and the world kinda just breaks. Monsters are suddenly real, and firearms are really not much more effective than a heavy stick might be. Rumors and folk legends are walking down main street. A raccoon sighting turns out to have been bigfoot. And a handful of individuals who survived ground zero have gained access to Eidolons - spiritual representations of the global imagination that have given them surprising abilities and knowledge. In this new world, those with an Eidolon are the top of the food chain. Now the question is what will they do?

I mean, there is a host of holes in this plot you could drive a truck through, because nukes still exist and armies don't just have assault rifles, but let's ignore that. This game is supposed to be about a weird battling with weird things, not about exploring semi-realistic global reacion to power shifts.



That's the concept anyway. Players take the role of a "modern" character. A security guard, maybe, or a cheerleader or the cashier at the local gas station. They are given the opportunity to decide on an Eidolon - which is pretty much anything distinct in cultural mind. From Zeus to Puck to Anansi to Spiderman, if a lot of people envision the same basic thing when you mention the name, it'll probably work. The Eidolon acts as kind of a non-combat pet/advisor to the player, and gives them access to a small subset of suitable D&D classes to take on. The knowledge, talents, and skills conferred by the class are intended to be alien to the character, meaning that a cheerleader with a suitable Eidolon could become a barbarian or a wizard (couldn't get a C+ in Spanish class, now fluent in Draconic...).

This is a really good idea for a game. But it is a terrible idea to do it in DnD.

Not only is class and level system kind of poorly suited to this without bending over backwards and making things far too complicated, DnD specifically is really, deeply lacking in any sort of mechanics to resolve social conflicts and personality clashes you should have with your eidolon - because Zeus insists you perform all manner of lewd acts, and you are a shy nerd.

So, find a system that fits better. Personally, I advise to look into FATE Core, but anything skill based with strong social combat mechanics will work well as a base.

[Calemyr]

I'm fresh from a run at Persona 4 Golden, so I like your idea. I don't like doing world building so much, but the idea of transcribing some Persona mechanics in a DeD class is a wet dream of mine. On one hand, a mechanic that let you gain Personae by defeating enemies or by fusing them in the Velvet Room, and that gives you features and spells depending on the Persona equipped, on the other hand, although difficult to create and manage, a system of Social Links to unlocks some special class features to perform with your allies....

It's not exactly meant to be Persona, just a campaign that runs along a similar vein. No Wild Card PCs here, for example, no Velvet Room. There is the collective unconscious being the source of power for both the monsters and the protagonists, and basic Jungian concepts do play a part, but it's a thematic inspiration rather than a full-on implementation.


I mean, there is a host of holes in this plot you could drive a truck through, because nukes still exist and armies don't just have assault rifles, but let's ignore that. This game is supposed to be about a weird battling with weird things, not about exploring semi-realistic global reacion to power shifts.

You do realize that the description is the broad strokes from the beginning, yeah? Not the actual full plot? Things like nukes and stuff are NOT going to be the first option a government is going to use against monsters in their own population center, especially early on while the monsters are still relatively weak. Later on, when the monster ecosystem starts to manifest and bigger things start to emerge, things like that will be a growing concern, but there will also be government officials trying to find ways to keep that from happening.

However, at least the way I've always run games, they've been about putting players in a complicated situation and letting them decide what to do with the assets they have. The consequences a situation has, including consequences derived from more powerful factions like governments and religions, are part of the game.


This is a really good idea for a game. But it is a terrible idea to do it in DnD.

Not only is class and level system kind of poorly suited to this without bending over backwards and making things far too complicated, DnD specifically is really, deeply lacking in any sort of mechanics to resolve social conflicts and personality clashes you should have with your eidolon - because Zeus insists you perform all manner of lewd acts, and you are a shy nerd.

So, find a system that fits better. Personally, I advise to look into FATE Core, but anything skill based with strong social combat mechanics will work well as a base.

A fair point, but this is meant to be a table at a gaming store, not something with an established gaming group. Using a rule set that is solidly defined and readily available was intentional. The social bits are somewhat weak, yes, but that will require me to have some ability at improv and roleplaying myself. The Eidolons are only intended to be as big a role as the players want them to be. If said nerd were to ask Zeus for advice, part of said advice would certainly be to pursue whatever potential love interest the character might have regardless of the probability of success. However, the players are the focus of the campaign, not the Eidolons themselves. They're there for flavor.

[noob]

There is also the dnd damage system: 60 damage is not just using three times as much energy as 20: damage in function of energy in dnd often follows a logarithmic scale.
So Nukes in dnd deals like 20d6 and grenades deals 5d6 while nuclear bombs explodes way stronger than 4 times stronger than a grenade.
Strength is another example of that: 10 more strength means that you deal 5 extra damage with your longsword but it also means that your muscles can exert 4 times more energy (You can lift, push/pull and drag 4 times more) so your damage again does not increase nearly as much as the energy does.
So in dnd world having 60 extra hp can mean that you go from being killable with a single rifle shot to surviving half of the time a nuclear explosion(you would still die in approximatively 7 rifle shots).

This is why nukes does not matters as much in dnd world: you should be more scared of a warhead that explodes in smaller warheads that explodes in even more small warheads for maximal damage instance count.

[Calemyr]

There is also the dnd damage system: 60 damage is not just using three times as much energy as 20: damage in function of energy in dnd often follows a logarithmic scale.
So Nukes in dnd deals like 20d6 and grenades deals 5d6 while nuclear bombs explodes way stronger than 4 times stronger than a grenade.
Strength is another example of that: 10 more strength means that you deal 5 extra damage with your longsword but it also means that your muscles can exert 4 times more energy (You can lift, push/pull and drag 4 times more) so your damage again does not increase nearly as much as the energy does.
So in dnd world having 60 extra hp can mean that you go from being killable with a single rifle shot to surviving half of the time a nuclear explosion(you would still die in approximatively 7 rifle shots).

This is why nukes does not matters as much in dnd world: you should be more scared of a warhead that explodes in smaller warheads that explodes in even more small warheads for maximal damage instance count.

Heh. That is true. "Awakened" individuals, especially those who have a good amount of experience in battle, would be really scary in a world where 90% of the population could be killed or incapacitated with a single bullet or sword swing, whereas these guys might be able to take a missile to the face and not get so much as a bruise. Of course, the risks have to rise as their power level does, while the population doesn't get any more resistant to this nonsense. At first, the cops and military can largely hold their own with their firearms and teamwork, but imps, goblins, and shades are just the first things to manifest. The more the population understands that monsters truly exist, the monsters WILL exist, and the nastier the variations that surface. If the party become effective gods, the devils shall rise to meet them. And will the gods care about the mortals that tread like ants underfoot?

And in the end, if the party finds a way to end this nonsense, if they discover that doing so will take away their Eidolons and reduce them to what they were before this mess? What choice will they make? Will they even see it as a choice? And what if there are other Eidolon users who use their powers for other goals than the party. If the party learns to enjoy this new world while another faction is fighting to undo it? Or Eidolons find their way into truly depraved hands? I mean, knowing yourself doesn't mean you have to be a good person, right? Honestly, that could be true of anyone in the party as well.

So, I guess this is a proper Persona game, after a fashion. I mean, the DM is setting this up for the sole purpose of seeing what the players will do when given power. I wonder if the DM should be the final boss in that case?

[Mechalich]

The basic idea is to take a modern, "normal" world. Suddenly an event (nobody agrees on what it was) occurs and the world kinda just breaks. Monsters are suddenly real, and firearms are really not much more effective than a heavy stick might be. Rumors and folk legends are walking down main street. A raccoon sighting turns out to have been bigfoot. And a handful of individuals who survived ground zero have gained access to Eidolons - spiritual representations of the global imagination that have given them surprising abilities and knowledge. In this new world, those with an Eidolon are the top of the food chain. Now the question is what will they do?

This is the plot of Devil Survivor, not Persona, which is a slight variation on the standard MegaTen formula.

[Calemyr]

This is the plot of Devil Survivor, not Persona, which is a slight variation on the standard MegaTen formula.

I am aware, but I'm tending towards the variation, I think, with the Eidolons. They're fragments of the PCs psyches, not monsters in their service. I am certainly drawing more from Persona 1 and Persona 2 a&b for this, to my mind, where the masquerade breaking does impact the general populace, but even then I want it to be at least moderately upbeat. The goal is to entertain the players, not be self-indulgently dark.

Though my final boss, if I were to do that, might at very least count as self-indulgent.
In order to summon the final boss and achieve their goal, the party must supply a single pure desire they all share. This achieved by experiencing several potential outcomes of their desire, as it is twisted and warped. They will see happy endings, they will see horrific endings, they will see endings that are only happy for some of them. In the end, they endure, obtain the pure desire, and summon the final boss. Out of the miasma steps a pudgy, middle-aged white dude.

The supposed final boss greets them in the voice of the DM, which is to say the voice the DM takes when speaking in the role of the DM - a little deeper than normal, with a little more authority. He congratulates them on finding their desire, but finding it and realizing it are two different things. If they want this to end, they know what they have to do. The boss draws a pen, that turns into a sword.

The ensuing fight does not go well for the party. The DM is blatantly cheating. No hits land on the boss, not even nat 20s, while the boss uses a constant barrage of flashy and high damage attacks that somehow never do enough damage to reduce anyone below 1 HP, which becomes very evident when these big, dramatic attacks start doing 0 damage... This farce of a fight continues until one player, in frustration, does something outside of the game. Maybe they throw a d12 at the DM, maybe they close their player's handbook in disgust. To everyone's surprise, the boss reels at this, and appears to have taken significant damage. The players catch on that the only way to beat the boss is to not play by the DM's rules. The DM may not enjoy this bit if they conclude attacking him is the way to damage the boss, but ultimately the boss is slain. The DM attempts to suggest the players pick whichever ending they liked from when they purified the desire, but if the party calls him out on his BS, the DM relents and properly roleplays a hopefully satisfying epilogue. What does everyone want to play next week?