How to Fix Eschew Materials

[Hachristo]

Eschew materials lets you cast spells without material components that costs 1 gp or less. Thing is, a spell component pouch gives the caster an infinite amount of every material component that has no listed cost. Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful. In my game, I've increased the gp equivalence to 250 gp, which allows for you cast stuff like identify, stoneskin, true seeing, and others without paying. I don't know if this is the best way to solve this, but please let me know if y'all have a better solution (or a reason not to change it in the first place).

Edit: I've been informed that it is a move action to take a component out of the component pouch. Eschew materials let's you bypass that, making it much better than I originally thought. Thanks for the feedback!

Edit (again): Previous edit has been questioned, looking in chapter 8 (Combat) of the players handbook under the actions in combat section, it specifically says preparing a spell component to cast a spell is a free action that provokes no attack of opportunity. Continue informing me of eschew materials use cases, nothing to see here.

[the_tick_rules]

well to be fair spell pouch isn't infinite like some magical arrow quivers. the materials are so common and so cheap keeping track of them would be a nuisance. if a caster was in an isolated environment for an extended time the dm would be well within fairness to begin saying you run out. it is also used a lot in monsters for whom it would be strange to carry a pouch or have anatomical reasons not to wear one.

[Silly Name]

Does it need "fixing"? It does exactly what it says: you can play a caster without having to worry about your component pouch getting damaged or lost, or being somewhere where the handwaving doesn't work (stuck in a desert, another plane, and so on).

[rrwoods]

Yeah the point of this feat is not to be in the narrow zone of "components you can't get automatically from a pouch that cost 1 gp or less". It's supposed to substitute for the pouch entirely.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.

[Hachristo]

Does it need "fixing"? It does exactly what it says: you can play a caster without having to worry about your component pouch getting damaged or lost, or being somewhere where the handwaving doesn't work (stuck in a desert, another plane, and so on).

Honestly I would much rather buy spare pouches than expend a feat, especially if I'm not a human. I suppose that a lot of the feats available to casters in core at first level aren't the greatest (Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, Spell Mastery), but you could always play the long game and get a metamagic feat. If I was running a game where I was super tactical and had all my enemies try to sunder the caster's pouch, I would be more hesitant to buff the feat, but currently most of my players prefer a casual, easy going game, so I don't have such considerations.

[Darg]

Think about how big a spell pouch is, how much weight the materials would take up, and realize that the only reason it is infinite is because the DM allows it to be. It's simply a handwave device, but that doesn't mean you should take it for granted. It can be sundered, AoE'd, or taken from you. Getting an item out of the pouch is a move action. Eschew materials makes it so you don't have to bother getting the items out.

[Hachristo]

Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.

That's actually a really cool usage I hadn't thought about. Thanks for the input!

[Hachristo]

Getting an item out of the pouch is a move action. Eschew materials makes it so you don't have to bother getting the items out.

If that's true than I retract any complaints. Eschew Materials OP:biggrin:

[ShurikVch]

Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful.
Dragon scale costs 1 gp
It's material component for:
Dragon Breath (Spell Compendium)
Dragonskin (Spell Compendium)
Hide from Dragons (Spell Compendium)
Scorch (Spell Compendium)
Sense of the Dragon (Races of the Dragon)
Summon Aspect of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon)
Wall of Scales (Races of the Dragon)

[Tzardok]

Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.

Doesn't work. Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore material components. The tuning fork is a focus component.

Also, the tuning fork doesn't need to be made from something from the target plane. It just needs to be "A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures." What metal corresponds to what plane is left to the DM, so that they have control over how easy or difficult it is to get the right tuning fork.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Doesn't work. Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore material components. The tuning fork is a focus component.

Also, the tuning fork doesn't need to be made from something from the target plane. It just needs to be "A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures." What metal corresponds to what plane is left to the DM, so that they have control over how easy or difficult it is to get the right tuning fork.After looking things over, you're correct.

Though the same still applies for simulacrum and ice assassin.

[Troacctid]

If that's true than I retract any complaints. Eschew Materials OP:biggrin:
It is not true.

[Jack_Simth]

It is not true.

More specifically, it's a free action most of the time, full-round when grappling.

[Thunder999]

It's pretty useful if you like magic jar, lets you cast spells while possession people who don't have a pouch.

[Particle_Man]

Some of it is to save roleplay time. You just assume that the cavalcade of "free" but weird stuff (including, oddly, the live spider you need to swallow for spider climb) are there with every pouch but if you lose your pouch, I guess you could roleplay looking for a spider to swallow, etc. And it is easier to have the pouch, or the feat, than roleplaying hunting up every free thing of every spell you cast, or can cast, that has a free but weird material component.

Mind you, an illusionist sans spell component pouch or eschew materials feat can get quite far with just a fleecy coat that they can take little bits of fleece off of at need. :smallbiggrin:

[gijoemike]

Things mentioned so far
Numerous components cost 1g to 2cp.

Using a Pouch while being grappled is a full round action

Simulacrum and ice assassin tom foolery. ( I disallow this, the items in those cases are more of a focus that is consumed not a cheap spell component). 99% of ice assassin usage doesn't fly.

Here is one that isn't mentioned yet.

Bluffing while spell casting. If you silent and still a spell that uses components you can still easily be called out and the spell can be identified. You MUST have eschew mats to pull off a con using most magic.

I have always seen Eschew Mats as metamagic modifier, but instead of playing the metamagic game like silent and still (+1 adjustment was the minimum when 3rd first came out) but the OG designers didn't want to punish casters with another penalty. Instead they opted to have this apply to all spells cast by the feat holder.

[Quertus]

It's pretty useful if you like magic jar, lets you cast spells while possession people who don't have a pouch.

I must admit, I hadn't thought of that.

… are there any builds (or monsters) that would noticeably make use of this? I seem to recall one Undead-piloting build, maybe?

[Gorthawar]

In my campaign sorcerers and similar get eshew materials for free. Not that it comes up a lot but it just feels right to leave the fiddling with bat guano and other obscure ingredients to the wizards.

[Zaile]

If you have a DM that likes to capture you a lot and you end up in jail with no equipment, this feat is mandatory.

The usefulness of this feat id directly proportional to how RAW your DM is on components. Arcane focus also removes a lot of the need for this too.

[Silent Alarm]

I have always seen Eschew Mats as metamagic modifier, but instead of playing the metamagic game like silent and still (+1 adjustment was the minimum when 3rd first came out) but the OG designers didn't want to punish casters with another penalty. Instead they opted to have this apply to all spells cast by the feat holder.

A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot of the spell’s normal level
The feat was, to my knowledge, first published in Deities in Demigods, as a 3.0 source. The feat very clearly has a metamagic cost of +0.

It should be noted that, for whatever reason, your game going into Epic level, taking Eschew Material becomes a bit of a power play, as it is a requirement for possibly one of the second most exploitable feats in the entire game, Ignore Material Components (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents) losing out only to Epic Spellcasting as a means of generating wealth (casting time of Fabricate and the high level requirement really thwarts it).

[Darg]

It is not true.

More specifically, it's a free action most of the time, full-round when grappling.

Where is this? It's a move action to retrieve a stored item. Did I skip over some text somewhere?

[InvisibleBison]

Where is this? It's a move action to retrieve a stored item. Did I skip over some text somewhere?

It's on the table of free actions in the Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) section.

[Crake]

Eschew materials lets you cast spells without material components that costs 1 gp or less. Thing is, a spell component pouch gives the caster an infinite amount of every material component that has no listed cost. Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition. There may be others in non core books, but the point is that there are very, very few cases where this feat is useful. In my game, I've increased the gp equivalence to 250 gp, which allows for you cast stuff like identify, stoneskin, true seeing, and others without paying. I don't know if this is the best way to solve this, but please let me know if y'all have a better solution (or a reason not to change it in the first place).

Edit: I've been informed that it is a move action to take a component out of the component pouch. Eschew materials let's you bypass that, making it much better than I originally thought. Thanks for the feedback!

Edit (again): Previous edit has been questioned, looking in chapter 8 (Combat) of the players handbook under the actions in combat section, it specifically says preparing a spell component to cast a spell is a free action that provokes no attack of opportunity. Continue informing me of eschew materials use cases, nothing to see here.

So I can spam fabricate daily to make 750gp items out of nothing and then sell them for easy money? With just the investment of a single feat, I can make thousands of gp per day? Nice.

[Darg]

It's on the table of free actions in the Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) section.

That says to prepare it, not bring it out of storage though. It also doesn't say that it is a special property of the spell component pouch either. I guess technically the rules don't require you to have the component in hand to cast as it only requires you to possess the item, but then that invalidates the need for the grapple component retrieval rule. Except for the specific rule requiring components to be in hand while grappled... Although I think the intent is for components to be in hand/touching your body in some way, maybe it is something they wanted to do away with similar to overrun on a charge which is mentioned in a few separate places.

[InvisibleBison]

That says to prepare it, not bring it out of storage though. It also doesn't say that it is a special property of the spell component pouch either. I guess technically the rules don't require you to have the component in hand to cast as it only requires you to possess the item, but then that invalidates the need for the grapple component retrieval rule. Except for the specific rule requiring components to be in hand while grappled... Although I think the intent is for components to be in hand/touching your body in some way, maybe it is something they wanted to do away with similar to overrun on a charge which is mentioned in a few separate places.

What does preparing a component mean, if not taking it out of storage?

[Darg]

What does preparing a component mean, if not taking it out of storage?

For a focus it could be positioning it to be used as a focus. For components it could be dumping the sand out of the small vial holding it, throwing some tarts, unwrapping a bit of flesh, drip a few drops of water, etc. It really doesn't fit the iconic image of a wizard to simply dump all that stuff outside of containers to keep materials separate and preserved into a bag. I mean, water evaporates fairly quickly you know?

[Hachristo]

So I can spam fabricate daily to make 750gp items out of nothing and then sell them for easy money? With just the investment of a single feat, I can make thousands of gp per day? Nice.

I haven't had anyone in my game try this; obviously this should not be the case. I would make fabricate's component a focus instead of a material, as technically the component is not expended, just transformed in shape.

[Jack_Simth]

I haven't had anyone in my game try this; obviously this should not be the case. I would make fabricate's component a focus instead of a material, as technically the component is not expended, just transformed in shape.

Just run it like the psionic version: the original materials are the targets, not a component. Also prevents bypasses via things like spell-like abilities.

[Drelua]

It's not a particularly powerful feat, but I'd say it's plenty useful. The smart thing to do if you take it is to continue using your components pouch so people still think you need it, then if you get captured they'll take it and won't know you can still cast all your spells. It doesn't usually matter, but when it does you'll be very glad to have it. It is very DM dependent of course, but it's still pretty good for core.

[Shpadoinkle]

It might help if you clarified what, exactly, you felt needed to be "fixed" about it.

[Albanymusicfund]

People really feel strongly about this haha. To be frank my sorcerer player never remembers about materials so I feel some DMs might pretend this does not exist.

[Fizban]

It might help if you clarified what, exactly, you felt needed to be "fixed" about it.
Indeed. I was thinking about material components a week or two ago and would love to throw in on the subject, but rather than addressing the material component problem that lies behind Eschew Materials, the solution here is apparently just "more free stuff?"


Eschew materials lets you cast spells without material components that costs 1 gp or less. Thing is, a spell component pouch gives the caster an infinite amount of every material component that has no listed cost. Here's a list of spells that require a material component that has a listed cost less than or equal to 1 gp:

Detect Thoughts: 1 cp
Gentle Repose: 1 cp per eye on corpse
Fabricate: The original material (only applies to items for which the raw materials to craft cost 1 gp or less)

That's it. 3 spells in the entirety of the player's handbook that fall under this condition.
Is the problem that you're reading it as not affecting components which have no listed cost? 'Cause the point is that it lets you ignore all inexpensive material components, which is like 99% of the spells that have material components. The list of spells it works on in the PHB is nearly all of them.

The bigger problem is that the more powerful a spell is, the less likely the writer is to have bothered with writing a "joke" of a material component and in general it's basically random whether or not they exist and thus matter at all, and the already mentioned "ah yes this spell says you need a piece of X but fails to list the price of everything in existence therefore it's free!" problem.

Fixing Eschew Materials first requires fixing the material component system, which first requires establishing a material component system.

[Zombimode]

Fixing Eschew Materials first requires fixing the material component system, which first requires establishing a material component system.

Precisely. The existing "system" is just that: a joke. As such in all games that I have participated, player or GM, cheap material components have always been silently ignored by everyone.

[Telonius]

Precisely. The existing "system" is just that: a joke. As such in all games that I have participated, player or GM, cheap material components have always been silently ignored by everyone.

Agree, in a literal sense. Material components are a joke. Yes, you can mumble something about sympathetic magic. But when throwing a pie at somebody results in hideous laughter, that is a terrible pun. So is 1cp to detect thoughts (penny for your thoughts).

[Quertus]

Importing the 2e "spell component cost" table may help here.

[Thunder999]

I really don't think anyone wants to make tracking material components actually necessary, the system is fine as is, a spell component pouch functions pretty much like a divine focus, i.e. it's an item most casters need to own that could be taken away (it shouldn't happen often, but is the caster equivalent of taking away weapons, which might make sense if they're meeting a paranoid noble or something) and means you need to think carefully about things like magic jar or polymorph-style effects that don't let you keep gear.

Eschew materials is a bit like still spell, it rarely matters and you're probably bette roff just picking a spell or two that doesn't have the component in the first place, but if you want to be able to walk into the throne room and cast a few spells while sitting at the high table or w/e you'll want it.

[Particle_Man]

I put it in the same category as the survival skill. There might be cases where someone needs to hunt for food, having no rations. Survival could help here or else they need to have a role play session about getting food. Similarly there might be cases where someone needs to cast a spell but do not have their material component pouch. Then they either need the eschew materials feat, or they need to have a role play session where they find the specific minor component for the particular spell that they cast, like a piece of fleece or something like that.

Usually dms ignore this but some dms might go for the “extreme survivalist”/“desperate for components” mode, if only for a little while at low levels to highlight that the survival skill or spell component pouch are nice to have.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The way I "fix" Eschew Materials is to give it to all spellcasters. It's too situational to be worth a feat slot, but now it's not taking up a feat slot. Some mechanics, such as pun-based headaches (as others have noted), aren't worth keeping in the game. The whole thing screams of Grod's Law.

The other part of the fix is to remove the cheesy applications of the component rules: The components of some spells, such as Simulacrum, are more valuable than 1 gp even though there is no listed price. This issue wasn't specific to Eschew Materials (since theoretically you could pull artifacts with no listed price out of spell component pouches), but Eschew Materials made it more obvious.

[Fizban]

I really don't think anyone wants to make tracking material components actually necessary, the system is fine as is, a spell component pouch functions pretty much like a divine focus, i.e. it's an item most casters need to own that could be taken away (it shouldn't happen often, but is the caster equivalent of taking away weapons, which might make sense if they're meeting a paranoid noble or something) and means you need to think carefully about things like magic jar or polymorph-style effects that don't let you keep gear.
Indeed, with the problem being that so many spells randomly ignore the mechanic and the number of hands required are ambiguous. Components are what separate magic that can be interfered with, from magic that is basically unstoppable. If all spells required components then you could also make further rulings that make magic effectively "two-handed," rather than ambiguously one-handed (which often leads to ambiguously anything you want is in your hands), all of which then make the ability to and convenience of removing those components much more significant, like being able to fight unarmed.

And one of the biggest hurdles is that sure, they're jokes, but they do have meaning. So if you don't have one off the top of your head, now you have to research a stupid little joke to support a mechanic that normally isn't even supposed to matter. So people can't be bothered.

Ironically, though one of the standard responses is that no one wants to actually track material components, the easiest way to substitute a rule rather than writing dozens of little jokes for every incomplete spell, is to instead rule that *all* material components have cost. Little costs, randomly determined per spell, which yes you do have to track. And then people that don't find tracking them to be a problem at all- and it really isn't, you don't actually have *that* many spells that you're actively casting all the time, and you can just drop a couple hundred gold and say you've got a big box of stuff in your magic bag- those people can just track them, and gain value from spells that specifically lack material components (and they can be added or removed based on how a spell compares to others). Or, you can take Eschew Materials if you really can't be bothered to track your ammunition, a tragic cost of one feat for the widely recognized most powerful classes in the game, which archers have to take whole specialized "psionic" classes to do. Or you could play a Psion.

[Particle_Man]

A mean DM would say "I am sorry, you cannot cast spider climb because you did not feed the spiders in your spell component pouch and they all died". :smallbiggrin:

[Doctor Awkward]

There is nothing wrong with Eschew Materials.

An actual physical piece of a deity is worth much more than a single gold piece.

[sreservoir]

Just a note: plane shift requires a tuning fork made from a material from the plane in question. Obtaining such can be a real pain if there're reasons why you wouldn't be able to get one despite what's printed in the rules for a spell component pouch. For instance, it's a demiplane created by an enemy spellcaster and you have no way to get material from said plane. Eschew Materials would allow you to go there, whereas it's unlikely a DM would allow you to do so with just a spell component pouch. Yes, this is Rule 0, and yes, it goes against RAW of the pouch. It's still a point to be made, however.

There even is reason to believe that your spell component pouch may not necessarily contain the right tuning fork:

Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. Forked rods keyed to certain planes or dimensions may be difficult to come by, as decided by the DM.
Add this to the list of text omitted from the SRD that inverts expectations...

There's also this bit from the top of the Spells chapter:

An M or F appearing at the end of a spell’s name in the spell lists denotes a spell with a material or focus component, respectively, that is not normally included in a spell component pouch.
And indeed plane shift is marked with an F. (But BoVD's apocalypse from the sky is isn't!)

This contradicts the description of the spell component pouch, and I'd feel comfortable calling this a specific exception except it's bizarrely out of the way, and ... well, sometimes implies odd things, like the fact that the staff you cast spellstaff on is listed as a focus and not marked F, so I guess you can just pull a wooden quarterstaff out of your spell component pouch as needed.

[Ashtagon]

A better fix...

Spell component pouches do not exist as such (although small bags of that size of course do).

Where a spell component is listed, that component remains the same if a) it is under 1 gp in cost (or clearly trivial in cost), and b) it would be easy to obtain in town or by foraging for a day on the prime material plane. Things that are expensive (such as 50 gp worth of powdered diamond) or hard to obtain (such as a tuning fork attuned to a specific plane, or the footfall of a cat) remain the same as material components.

In all other cases, the material component is replaced with an Arcane Focus item. This is personal to the wizard, and might be a staff, orb, wand, or any other hand-held device agreed with the GM. Replacing it requires first finding a suitable item to serve as the Arcane Focus (which can be a standard (not mastercraft) item) item bought in town, then spending a day of downtime attuning yourself to the new Arcane Focus. This act of attuning yourself to a new Arcane Focus simultaneously de-attunes the character from their old Arcane Focus. If desired, the Arcane Focus can be a pre-existing magic item.

Eschew Materials allows the character to dispense with the need for the Arcane Focus item.

----

The reason this works better is because half of the problem with spell components is the idea that the spell component pouch contains an essentially unlimited supply of a nigh-infinite variety of different spell components, many of which should probably have agglomerated into a gross sticky mass if left to their own devices in that small pouch.

[Fizban]

A better fix...

Spell component pouches do not exist as such (although small bags of that size of course do). Where a spell component is listed, that component remains the same if a) it is under 1 gp in cost (or clearly trivial in cost), and b) it would be easy to obtain in town or by foraging for a day on the prime material plane.
But is the caster required to declare and track them, or not?

Things that are expensive (such as 50 gp worth of powdered diamond) or hard to obtain (such as a tuning fork attuned to a specific plane, or the footfall of a cat) remain the same as material components.
Eschew Materials allows the character to dispense with the need for the Arcane Focus item.
What about joke components that would clearly be hard to obtain or maintain, but are normally presumed part of the standard pouch?

In all other cases, the material component is replaced with an Arcane Focus item. This is personal to the wizard, and might be a staff, orb, wand, or any other hand-held device agreed with the GM. Replacing it requires first finding a suitable item to serve as the Arcane Focus (which can be a standard (not mastercraft) item) item bought in town, then spending a day of downtime attuning yourself to the new Arcane Focus. This act of attuning yourself to a new Arcane Focus simultaneously de-attunes the character from their old Arcane Focus. If desired, the Arcane Focus can be a pre-existing magic item.
You've specified that it takes up a hand: does that mean arcane casting is now two-handed, but only for spells that lack standard joke components? What if you have more than one hand item that you want to be able to use? What about all classes that normally use a weapon and their off hand for spellcasting- how do they switch between spells that use the hand focus and those that use normal components?

Here's how far I've got-
Target: Two-handed magic standard for primary arcanists, magic tied to items that when drawn can/will trigger initiative rolls if a weapon would. Components matter, so Eschew Materials matters. Any options to replace material components should not be obvious upgrades that simply make material components vanish. If spellcasting gets harder, that's fine.

General: All spells have all components, somatic, verbal, and material (or focus) or divine focus. Only a spell specifically designed or evaluated as a weaker effect or with drawback to compensate could be allowed to skip one, but these should be rare and guarded secrets, not easy level up spells. Somatic components require one hand, and material components require another. If a spell happens to list both material and focus, the focus can go in either hand (spells which arbitrarily had both are not meant to be nerfed).
-Spell Component Pouches still function as normal: it is presumed that the user is always restocking them and brings a sufficient stockpile for long journeys, and the DM can always rule that exceptional circumstances might warrant running out, tracking more weight, or charging some amount of gp for instantly rebuilding a lost stockpile. A ruling that each pouch can only organize the components for X spells simultaneously (ten should be plenty) would be entirely appropriate for avoiding non-magical hammerspace pouches.


Clerics already have options for putting their holy symbol on everything. Druids could likewise tie their plant bits to pretty much anything, and it's kinda vague as to whether they were expected to even have their divine focus in hand to begin with IIRC. Both are expected to use shields, but as spellcasters are not expected to have weapon in hand at all times, and this should represent no change. Paladins and Rangers, likewise.
Wizards, Sorcerers, and similar are expected to use either a spell component pouch+somatic components, or take a 1st level feat or ACF or something that changes their material components into a casting implement. The loss of convenience of the pouch could count as an offset so the focus allows them to cast one-handed by gesturing with the implement, or they could still require both hands: both hands on the staff to "channel energy," staff is planted or spun to "gather energy" while gesturing with other hand, off-hand conducting gestures made alongside the wand, etc. Whether the small size and concealable nature of material components is a boon or not (or the obvious hostile nature of a focus weapon a detriment) depends highly on the campaign. I expect given the option most people would immediately default to a casting implement, and thus the casting implement should not reduce the 2-hand requirement, else the changes are once again self-defeating.
Bards could use full-round action verbal components, replacing material and somatic. They become less mobile without some sort of feat to speed up or walk while casting, but their casting is also meaningfully different.
Duskblades buy a slightly more expensive focus weapon and lose shield proficiency to indicate they're supposed to keep that hand open, or gain Somatic Weaponry for free, or explicitly ignore components as part of Arcane Channeling, or something. I kind of don't care, see below.
The problem with two-handed melee weapons remains, in the old question of whether you can free action remove and return your hand, and further incentivizing what already has the vast majority of support in "combat styles" is less than desirable. Unless focus weapons are arbitrarily restricted to one handed, or the two-handed versions require Somatic Weaponry or some other feat to function, the Duskblade still just ends up with the most obvious pressure.
Hexblade casting is small and their theme is "sneaky underhanded cheating," so they could warrant a full exception, with spells cast from Hexblade levels ignoring all material components and requiring only the smallest of gestures that can be done even if your hands are full.
I suppose Spellthieves could similarly flout the rules, given that Spellthief casting is also minimal.
People who take hybrid PrCs are expected to deal with it. They take an ACF to get a focus weapon, or Eschew Materials, and then deal with somatic components via Somatic Weaponry as the game already expects. The addition of material components to every spell is at worst a one-feat increase in cost to what is already an increasingly inexpensive character build.


Two big problems I ran into eventually were mage-warriors, and standard DnD consumable wands and staves.


As noted, the question of just how many hands are required and/or expected to do what, and whether or not a class is even written with this in mind, is pretty large. "Gish" PrCs and base classes just get stronger and easier over time without really addressing this, and I kinda don't care if standardizing material components to fix the system requires throwing them under the bus. The difficulty of managing both can be the main reason such individuals are considered rare, exotic, and useful when they can manage to utilize both sets of abilities in spite of the handicap. It's still only two feats in the end to brute-force your way out of the problem, even if they're not allowed an easy replacement of material components with a weapon focus.
And staves and wands being un-usable when magic is two-handed. But it's easy enough to add that wands can conduct somatic components while staves are universal foci that take the place of basic material components.


And of course, I haven't supplied a solution for the Plane Shift focus and similar problem. Though how about: spells listed with non-trivial foci simply require those items as an additional part of the spell. Or additional focus if that phrasing is preferred, it's the "additional" doing the work there, though I was thinking of how all the spells that target their "focus" still require a target.


The reason this works better is because half of the problem with spell components is the idea that the spell component pouch contains an essentially unlimited supply of a nigh-infinite variety of different spell components, many of which should probably have agglomerated into a gross sticky mass if left to their own devices in that small pouch.
Which leads to another general ruling: material components are always things that actually can be kept and retrieved safely and easily from a pocket or pouch, any unsuitable published examples are ignored and replaced with something else (specified or not, depending on desired detail).


Aside: anyone know where the "orb" came from, aside from 4e? It seems to me a desperate attempt to find some sort of casting implement that isn't a stick, but which also must be held in the hand like a stick rather than giving you a free hand like jewelry (bracelet, etc) would. The best way to give big sticks a purpose is by letting them cast more/more general spells while smaller concealable sticks have narrow use and wearables are expensive, but none of this translates to DnD casting smoothly at all since even the casters with explicitly limited spells known never stop gaining and expect to have all their spells available at all times.

The only media I've seen that actually used a "spellcasting orb" was The Dragon Prince, which did so as an effectively priceless artifact (only one shown in the whole show) which could let a human cast magic (which they normally can't at all), a glass or crystal orb that contained the primal heart of a storm. Of course, the show also used a very DnD-esque "sacrificial" magic for the humans with lots of killing various magical bugs (which offends the elves).

[Silly Name]

Aside: anyone know where the "orb" came from, aside from 4e? It seems to me a desperate attempt to find some sort of casting implement that isn't a stick, but which also must be held in the hand like a stick rather than giving you a free hand like jewelry (bracelet, etc) would. The best way to give big sticks a purpose is by letting them cast more/more general spells while smaller concealable sticks have narrow use and wearables are expensive, but none of this translates to DnD casting smoothly at all since even the casters with explicitly limited spells known never stop gaining and expect to have all their spells available at all times.

The only media I've seen that actually used a "spellcasting orb" was The Dragon Prince, which did so as an effectively priceless artifact (only one shown in the whole show) which could let a human cast magic (which they normally can't at all), a glass or crystal orb that contained the primal heart of a storm. Of course, the show also used a very DnD-esque "sacrificial" magic for the humans with lots of killing various magical bugs (which offends the elves).

Crystal balls are traditionally associated with scrying and clairvoyance, and could be reasonably extended to being "generic" foci for a mage. For D&D, Dragonlance introduced us to the Orbs of Dragonkind, which were magic orbs of immense power but with a specific function, and there are many examples in fiction of crystals and gemstones being associated with magic.

[HeraldOfExius]

The "material component fix" that I've dabbled in a bit is extrapolating backwards from spells that use expensive rocks (shiny rocks, but rocks nonetheless). The joke components would all be replaced with a single component that resembles sand. Inexpensive material components just use a pinch of this one material. This nearly universal component does not replace things like pieces of specific creatures or other such "no, you can't just pull that out of a spell component pouch" items. A "spell component pouch" is just a bag that contains enough of this material that running out isn't a concern, and Eschew Materials lets you cast spells as though you had this particular component. If you still really want to be able to cast spells without a pouch or EM by playing "I Spy," then the joke components might still be a valid way to cast spells, but your average wizard isn't going to carry around a tackle box of random junk just to cast spells.

[Ashtagon]

@Fizban


But is the caster required to declare and track them, or not?

That seems to vary by GM. I've seen it go both ways, where the spell component pouch is essentially a specialised and preloaded bag of holding, or where the GM expects the player to track every live spider. With this fix, I'm explicitly calling out tracking individual components as a thing that doesn't happen.

Note that the supercharged spell components in Unearthed Arcana and various supplements implicitly assumed that individual uses were being tracked.


What about joke components that would clearly be hard to obtain or maintain, but are normally presumed part of the standard pouch?

Can you given some examples?


You've specified that it takes up a hand: does that mean arcane casting is now two-handed, but only for spells that lack standard joke components? What if you have more than one hand item that you want to be able to use? What about all classes that normally use a weapon and their off hand for spellcasting- how do they switch between spells that use the hand focus and those that use normal components?

Arcane spell casting that has a Material component has always required a hand in order to manipulate that spell component. This isn't intended to be a change in the "handedness" of spellcasting (3.x.pf seems to assume one-handed spellcasting as the default). The open hand that would be used to magically gesture for non-Material-component spells is instead being used to magically wave the Arcane Focus.

If a spellcaster happens to have his attuned Arcane Focus item in hand when he wants to cast a spell that does not require a Material component, I'd say that's fine, but is an exception to the general rule that such spellcasting would require an open hand.

----

If I were going for a full-on fix, I would require that spellcasting require that the caster not be grappled, and have both hands available for magical gestures and/or waving an Arcane Focus around in a meaningful fashion. But that's a major change from RAW that affects balance, rather than just fixing a hole in game world logic that damages suspension of disbelief.


Aside: anyone know where the "orb" came from, aside from 4e? It seems to me a desperate attempt to find some sort of casting implement that isn't a stick, but which also must be held in the hand like a stick rather than giving you a free hand like jewelry (bracelet, etc) would. The best way to give big sticks a purpose is by letting them cast more/more general spells while smaller concealable sticks have narrow use and wearables are expensive, but none of this translates to DnD casting smoothly at all since even the casters with explicitly limited spells known never stop gaining and expect to have all their spells available at all times.

afaik, 4e was the first time it was suggested in D&D as an Arcane Focus. GURPS allows for powerstones, but those are typically much smaller , the sort of thing that might be mounted on a ring, necklace, earring, brooch, or other piece of small jewellery. The 4e orb seems to be something maybe three inches across; large enough to occupy one hand, without much danger of being casually dropped.

Orbas have of course existed in RPGs since the earliest days. D&D had crystal balls. 1e Dragonlance had the dragon orbs, and more varieties have appeared since then. Table-mounted versiosn have a long history in fortune telling circles.

[Fizban]

That seems to vary by GM. I've seen it go both ways, where the spell component pouch is essentially a specialised and preloaded bag of holding, or where the GM expects the player to track every live spider. With this fix, I'm explicitly calling out tracking individual components as a thing that doesn't happen.
I ask because once you remove the flat arbiter of gp and move into foraging, the question of how many uses for how many spells follows.


Can you given some examples? [of joke components that would clearly be hard to obtain or maintain, but are normally presumed part of the standard pouch?]
The "foraging for a day" line compared to the specificity of many components is the main problem, but there are plenty that shouldn't even be available in most towns. I'll include some foci as well. And since you only mentioned the specifically attuned fork and an esoteric example I've never seen before, I'm counting anything that isn't defined by the spell as "standard pouch." Ignoring similar repeats and stuff I figure you could find in most wilderness areas (honeycomb got multiple passes, as did "string" since you might make your own, and "lime," though as a particular construction material it probably shouldn't any more than clay or flint does).


An adder is specific type of snake, so an adder's stomach is a heck of an ask anywhere they aren't found underfoot.
A piece of very fine silver wire implies that wire should have value with its own description. F
Iron filings might be easy to obtain in town, but are impossible to pull out of nowhere without a file and some spare iron.
Did the medieval world know what alum is? I barely even know what alum is, let alone where it comes from.
A bit of bat fur is once again hard to find if there are no bats.
Tentacle from a giant octopus or giant squid- not even normally fish-able sized versions which could theorhetically be found in the right fishing villages: the Giant versions. We can't even reliably find giant squid today.
Bull and cat hair are easy in town, impossible to forage if they aren't found locally.
"A piece of amber, glass, or crystal rod", again easy enough in town, impossible out, though these are things that would cost money even in town. F
A small horn or glass eye, same again. Leather glove. F
A pinch each of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue- that's something you'd have to have specially made unless there's a glassblower with vats of colored sand around.
A very small crystal or glass cone, again, something you would have to pay for.
Quicksilver (mercury) isn't something you'll find laying around, nor is the eyelash of an ogre mage or rakshasa.
A short piece of copper wire, yet again possibly easy in town but impossible in the wild.
A small piece of mirror and a brass hearing trumpet.
A copper piece. F
A lodestone- that's a magnet, possibly only the naturally found version.
A small strip of leather.
Eagle feathers/droppings.
Alcohol or distilled spirits.
The heart of a hen or white feather.
A handful of marbles.
Acorns or holly berries.
Poshporous and fireflies- where does one even find phosphorous?
Bat guano and sulphur.
A drop of oil and a piece of flint- flint can be found outside, but it's not laying around everywhere, and oil is still a processed good.
Tallow, brimstone, and powdered iron- rendered animal fat, sulphur again, and presumably iron filings again.
Hummingbird feather.
Fox fur/dung.
Gauze and a "wisp of smoke"
A scrap of cloth or bit of dirt from a ghoul's clothing or lair.
A shaving of licorice root.
"Tiny tarts"
A bit of sponge- is this sea sponge?
An eyelash encased in gum arabic- what even is gum arabic? Is it easy to find? Nope, it's sap from a particular range of trees, which for the standard western Europe styled setting would have to be imported, just like those spices given massive trade good values.
A piece from an iron golem, hero's armor, or war machine.
Fur from a bloodhound.
A tiny silver whistle.
A thin sheet of lead (and some other stuff)- again, probably cheap, but forming it is not nothing.
A small square of silk. F
In made from squid ink and black dragon's blood.
Horse hair. Also various mentions of wool or fleece.
Chameleon skin- those are normally tropical IIRC.
A brass key. F
Owl feathers/droppings.
Sesame seeds.
Pyrite.
An empty cocoon- highly seasonal.
Turtle shell.
A "miniature cloak" (what even?)
Corn extract and parchment- parchment comes up multiple times, is made from lamb's hide IIRC, and costs 2sp per sheet in the PHB itself.
Bone from one of various undead.
Eagle eye, nitric acid, copper, zinc.
Herring scales and will-o-wisp essence.
Basilisk eyelash.
Molasses.
A musical instrument. F
A drop of bitumen and a live spider.
A rotten egg or skunk cabbage leaves.
A piece of sunstone and a naked flame- I assume the former is a gem/mineral/rock of some sort, but the latter flat out cannot be stored in a pouch.
A pair of small bar magnets- so apparently we've also added magnet production at some point.
A small clay model of a ziggurat- this is the one I had in mind when I put forth the question: a specific small model is not something you just find laying around.
Clay and water- clay has to be dug out of the right sorts of riverbanks and such, though we can say that water is only a problem in deserts.
A tiny archery target. F
A pinch of powder made from a clear gem- clear gems are generally the rarer and more expensive type.
A tiny fan and feather of "exotic" origin.

And that's the whole PHB.


The best part is how many of these are material components, when they seem pretty clearly like they should be focii, which could then be given small discrete prices and all totaled up into a sensible pouch. Tons of things use glass or crystal spheres, rods, and prisms, but sometimes as foci and sometimes as components. Lodestones appear multiple times, but also as components, when those should be even harder to find than glass.

Examples of things defined by the spell:
Plane Shift's plane-specific potentially rare focus.
Demand wants a piece of the target, similar to Fabricate, Major/Minor Creation, Scrying, Simulacrum, etc. Stone Shape's arcane component says it needs to be worked into the shape of the desired object first.

There are a surprising number of the more specific and hard to obtain components being tied to more powerful and/or specific, often legacy spells, but it's still not very consistent. Black Tentacles, Contingency, and Secret Page, and Sequester all involve legit monster parts. Tons of spells reference gum arabic, crystal, glass, lodestones, metal wires or rods, and various minerals and gems, all of which should cost money. Yet more want very specific animal parts, and others specific refined goods which actually have listed prices.

Even if you change the wording to allow stuff easily found in settlements only, that still leaves plenty that clearly should not be easily found in settlements, yet with no gp cost.

And even after all that, it's still no more than what 1/2? 1/3? of spells that even have listed material components, in the PHB.


Arcane spell casting that has a Material component has always required a hand in order to manipulate that spell component. This isn't intended to be a change in the "handedness" of spellcasting (3.x.pf seems to assume one-handed spellcasting as the default). The open hand that would be used to magically gesture for non-Material-component spells is instead being used to magically wave the Arcane Focus.
If a spellcaster happens to have his attuned Arcane Focus item in hand when he wants to cast a spell that does not require a Material component, I'd say that's fine, but is an exception to the general rule that such spellcasting would require an open hand.
Just confirming, it's something you'd want to state upfront.


If I were going for a full-on fix, I would require that spellcasting require that the caster not be grappled, and have both hands available for magical gestures and/or waving an Arcane Focus around in a meaningful fashion. But that's a major change from RAW that affects balance, rather than just fixing a hole in game world logic that damages suspension of disbelief.
I would argue that allowing some sort of focus item to obviate material components is already a major change in RAW/balance, simply due to the number of changes required to finish realizing it (all those questions). Doing so only partially even moreso.


afaik, 4e was the first time it was suggested in D&D as an Arcane Focus. GURPS allows for powerstones, but those are typically much smaller , the sort of thing that might be mounted on a ring, necklace, earring, brooch, or other piece of small jewellery. The 4e orb seems to be something maybe three inches across; large enough to occupy one hand, without much danger of being casually dropped.

Orbas have of course existed in RPGs since the earliest days. D&D had crystal balls. 1e Dragonlance had the dragon orbs, and more varieties have appeared since then. Table-mounted versiosn have a long history in fortune telling circles.

Crystal balls are traditionally associated with scrying and clairvoyance, and could be reasonably extended to being "generic" foci for a mage. For D&D, Dragonlance introduced us to the Orbs of Dragonkind, which were magic orbs of immense power but with a specific function, and there are many examples in fiction of crystals and gemstones being associated with magic.

Yes, crystal balls for scrying, and Dragon Orbs, obviously, and a general association with crystals and whatnot. What I'm wondering is if anyone ever had a spellcaster holding an "orb" in their hand on the battlefield because it was required for spellcasting in general. More of a question for someone read in a broad number of fantasy authors I suppose.

[Darg]

The difference between a focus and materials is that a focus isn't annihilated as part of the casting.

The component pouch is a handwave device. Honestly I think it is a little too much handwaving for some spells. Take magic circle against evil for example. You need enough silver to make a 3 ft diameter unbroken circle within the time frame of a standard action. Yeah. That would be a lot of silver. It doesnt have a specific price but that amount would be quite substantial to fit in only one pouch. At least it doesn't require the circle to be a perfect circle, or does it?

[Morty_Jhones]

I don't see escew Materials as a problem for 2 main resions.

1. you can't Ignore costly or special materal costs which go against a regions laws.

Geting a humaiods tounge might be easy in a evil land where I can see slaves having there tong cut out but in a holy paladins keep that going to be a bit more defecult.

1. Materail componant's require one free hand to use. add in the other hand needs to be free to actualy cast the spell and this means that spell casters with out this feat can't carry weapons.

[Ashtagon]

So, going through that list of material components in the PHB...

My criteria was that anything that can be found safely while foraging somewhere on an Earth-like planet, or could be found reasonably easy in town for under 1 gp (more specifically, in an alchemy shop), can be replaced with my Arcane Focus item. Remember, Eschew Materials by RAW replaces material components that cost under 1 gp, not merely material components with no meaningful cost.

I am very much aware that you can't forage all of these in one place, nor are all of them likely to be purchasable in town. That's not the criteria though. As long as they can be bought cheaply or foraged someplace on Earth (or earth-like planet), they meet the criteria.

An adder is specific type of snake, so an adder's stomach is a heck of an ask anywhere they aren't found underfoot.

It's a common snake across most of Europe, as it happens. Easy enough to forage. They are poisonous, but if you are out hunting for adders, can be hunted easonably safe.

A piece of very fine silver wire implies that wire should have value with its own description. F

A piece one inch long would certainly weigh less than a coin, and so definitely be under the 1 gp limit.

Iron filings might be easy to obtain in town, but are impossible to pull out of nowhere without a file and some spare iron.

Easily found in town, so no problem.

Did the medieval world know what alum is? I barely even know what alum is, let alone where it comes from.

It's really quite unremarkable in alchemy circles.

A bit of bat fur is once again hard to find if there are no bats.

Bats are common throughout Europe. Unremarkable.

Tentacle from a giant octopus or giant squid- not even normally fish-able sized versions which could theorhetically be found in the right fishing villages: the Giant versions. We can't even reliably find giant squid today.

This one I grant would need to remain as an actual spell component.

Bull and cat hair are easy in town, impossible to forage if they aren't found locally.

But yes, forageable, so they get replaced with an Arcane Focus.


"A piece of amber, glass, or crystal rod", again easy enough in town, impossible out, though these are things that would cost money even in town. F
A small horn or glass eye, same again. Leather glove. F
A pinch each of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue- that's something you'd have to have specially made unless there's a glassblower with vats of colored sand around.
A very small crystal or glass cone, again, something you would have to pay for.


Would be under 1 gp in ye olde alchemy shoppe.

Quicksilver (mercury) isn't something you'll find laying around, nor is the eyelash of an ogre mage or rakshasa.

Quicksilver is classic alchemy shop material. The ogre mage and rakshasa eyelashes however would need to remain as material components.


A short piece of copper wire, yet again possibly easy in town but impossible in the wild.
A small piece of mirror and a brass hearing trumpet.


Again, alchemy shop under 1 gp, so Arcane Focus gets these.

A copper piece. F

Pretty sure this is under 1 gp :smalltongue:

A lodestone- that's a magnet, possibly only the naturally found version.

Known since 600 BC, and easily found in alchemy shops. Spell Focus item.


A small strip of leather.
Eagle feathers/droppings.
Alcohol or distilled spirits.
The heart of a hen or white feather.
A handful of marbles.
Acorns or holly berries.


All common items that can be replaced with the Arcane Focus.

Poshporous and fireflies- where does one even find phosphorous?

Historically, it was refined from urine. I'm not even joking.

Bat guano and sulphur.

Bat guano is reasonably common in any place that has bats (like, most of Europe). Sulphur was historically mined from sites near volcanoes.

A drop of oil and a piece of flint- flint can be found outside, but it's not laying around everywhere, and oil is still a processed good.

And a drop of oil is certainly under 1 gp. I never made it a requirement that the creation of a basic replaceable-with-arcane-focus-item spell component be possible without skilled labour.

Tallow, brimstone, and powdered iron- rendered animal fat, sulphur again, and presumably iron filings again.

Again, Arcane Focus.


Hummingbird feather.
Fox fur/dung.
Gauze and a "wisp of smoke"


All easy enough, so AF item. A wisp of smoke can just be a freshly-extinguished flame.

A scrap of cloth or bit of dirt from a ghoul's clothing or lair.

Okay, this one needs to remain as a material component. Ghouls aren't known for being cooperative with the living (or as they call it, "dinner").

A shaving of licorice root.

Common in western Asia and southern Europe. Can be foraged. AF item.

"Tiny tarts"

Ye olde bakerie. AF item.

A bit of sponge- is this sea sponge?

Almost certainly sea sponges, which were actually used as cleanig tools in the way modern household sponges are used (which are typically made from either plant fibres or plastic).

An eyelash encased in gum arabic- what even is gum arabic? Is it easy to find? Nope, it's sap from a particular range of trees, which for the standard western Europe styled setting would have to be imported, just like those spices given massive trade good values.

Yeah, gum Arabic (which historically would have used the Acacia senegal tree only) is needlessly exotic. That said, it can easily be foraged on an Earth-like planet, albeit not in the proto-typical pseudo-medieval Europe. Still meets the criteria for AF item conversion.

A piece from an iron golem, hero's armor, or war machine.

Iron golems aren't really a safe source, and hero armour is needlessly rare, but war machines are common as muck, especially if you just need a couple of splinters of wood from the frame. AF item again.

Fur from a bloodhound.

A trained animal. AF item.


A tiny silver whistle.
A thin sheet of lead (and some other stuff)- again, probably cheap, but forming it is not nothing.
A small square of silk. F


All definitely under 1 gp in town, so AF item.

In made from squid ink and black dragon's blood.

Black dragons aren't cool with being blood donors, so this remains a material component.

Horse hair. Also various mentions of wool or fleece.

Unremarkable. AF item.

Chameleon skin- those are normally tropical IIRC.

Tropical, sure. But can be found easily and safely on an Earth like planet, so AF item.

A brass key. F
Owl feathers/droppings.
Sesame seeds.

AF item.

Pyrite.

One variety of this is known as fool's gold. This stuff was a key component in early firearms. It was also used in jewellery making since the time of ancient Greece.

An empty cocoon- highly seasonal.

And highly forageable. AF item.

Turtle shell.

AF item.

A "miniature cloak" (what even?)

Better known as a handkerchief :smallwink:

Corn extract and parchment- parchment comes up multiple times, is made from lamb's hide IIRC, and costs 2sp per sheet in the PHB itself.

And at 2sp a sheet is still under the 1 gp threshold to be replaced with an AF item.

Bone from one of various undead.

This has to remain as a material component.

Eagle eye, nitric acid, copper, zinc.

Ye olde alchemy shoppe. AF item.

Herring scales and will-o-wisp essence.

Material component. I've no idea how to get willowisp essence, or even how to get them to cooperate.

Basilisk eyelash.

Definitely needs to stay as a material component.

Molasses.

AF item, and not an anachronism. Ancient Greeks were aware of it being made in distant lands as early as the 5th century BC. The sweetener of choice across most of Europe however was honey, up until around the 16th century.

A musical instrument. F

A drop of bitumen and a live spider.

Common enough. AF item. The live spider bit was one of the things that bugs me about spell component pouches, since they shouldn't reasonably expect to survive more than half an hour in there.

A rotten egg or skunk cabbage leaves.

AF item.

A piece of sunstone and a naked flame- I assume the former is a gem/mineral/rock of some sort, but the latter flat out cannot be stored in a pouch.

Sunstone is a mineral, which can be foraged. A naked flame can be made simply with a candle, or even a matchstick, both of which can reasonably be found in alchemy shops.

A pair of small bar magnets- so apparently we've also added magnet production at some point.

Surprisingly, not an anachronism. Magnetic compasses were in use in Europe as early as the 12th century. AF item.

A small clay model of a ziggurat- this is the one I had in mind when I put forth the question: a specific small model is not something you just find laying around.

I agree this is another 'joke' item, but again, it's cheap enough to make (the main obstacle would be in describing it to the artisan). It'd be under 1 gp, so AF item.

Clay and water- clay has to be dug out of the right sorts of riverbanks and such, though we can say that water is only a problem in deserts.

Forageable. AF item.

A tiny archery target. F

A pinch of powder made from a clear gem- clear gems are generally the rarer and more expensive type.

A tiny fan and feather of "exotic" origin.

The fan is unremarkable, so AF item. The feather, since it's being specifically called out as exotic, I can see a case for it remaining as a material component.


Putting that together, the following are the ones that would remain as material components (i.e., not replaced with the Arcane Focus item):


Tentacle from a giant octopus or giant squid- not even normally fish-able sized versions which could theoretically be found in the right fishing villages: the Giant versions. We can't even reliably find giant squid today.
A scrap of cloth or bit of dirt from a ghoul's clothing or lair.
Ink made from squid ink and black dragon's blood.
Bone from one of various undead.
Herring scales and will-o-wisp essence.
Basilisk eyelash.
A tiny fan and feather of "exotic" origin.


The common theme seems to be that dangerous monsters are involved, OR the item is specifically called out as being rare and (ahem) exotic.

[Fizban]

My criteria was that anything that can be found safely while foraging somewhere on an Earth-like planet,
That's. . . not a useful criteria at all? And also not really how you stated it, since foraging for a day means foraging for a day. So, found within half a day's travel from where you are. Not teleporting across the country to a specific place. And the question remains of whether that's foraging for a day for a single use for a single spell, or to "reload" your entire pouch.

By saying something can be foraged, you immediately invite players to forage for things, which is why the criteria of "anywhere on the planet" is completely useless. It just means that the moment someone says "hey, material components are supposed to be forage-able, I'll just spend a day gathering," the whole thing falls apart because no, they can't.


or could be found reasonably easy in town for under 1 gp (more specifically, in an alchemy shop), can be replaced with my Arcane Focus item. Remember, Eschew Materials by RAW replaces material components that cost under 1 gp, not merely material components with no meaningful cost.
Now it sounds like your material component fix is "Eschew Materials, but focus items that don't cost feats." Which doesn't fix the material component system at all (though it could be taken as a fix for the feat by removing it I suppose).

You're just making a backwards path into what the spell component pouch already is. Saying that anything that exists on the planet without being tied to a Monster is already available in sub-1gp quantities at any alchemy shop, and thus can be gained easily, is already how the spell component pouch works. Whether you replace with a focus or not. Since most of those things wouldn't actually be that easily available without spellcasters wanting to buy them, removing them is self-contradictory, the Dragon Disciple removing its own non-dragon prerequisite.

You might as well just say "spell component pouches are replaced by the Arcane Focus, unless the spell calls for a specific component based on the target," and leave no room for spells with poorly written un-priced generic components to slip through.


Putting that together, the following are the ones that would remain as material components (i.e., not replaced with the Arcane Focus item): . . .
[list of monster bits]
The common theme seems to be that dangerous monsters are involved, OR the item is specifically called out as being rare and (ahem) exotic.
But (added bold)-

Where a spell component is listed, that component remains the same if a) it is under 1 gp in cost (or clearly trivial in cost), and b) it would be easy to obtain in town or by foraging for a day on the prime material plane. Things that are expensive (such as 50 gp worth of powdered diamond) or hard to obtain (such as a tuning fork attuned to a specific plane, or the footfall of a cat) remain the same as material components.

In all other cases, the material component is replaced with an Arcane Focus item.
So to recap: you said things that can be easily bought or foraged for are left as normal. I asked about the "standard pouch" components that are clearly not easy to find. You have responded by essentially changing the definition of what "easy" and "forage" mean in any practical terms and ignoring a number of other problems, but fine let's not argue about those. Your criteria of "exists on the material plane" means that actually the Arcane Focus item applies to almost nothing, just a very specific set of monster-bit components. So all those components that are actually far from easy to find, are still required, while those that should have costs but don't are replaced by the Arcane Focus.

Except you've flopped, and are now saying that the Arcane Focus replaces all the easily found components, and only the joke components that aren't actually "easy" to find remain the same. I was actually reading it that way before, hence asking what happens to the spells with non-easy components (the answer to the question was evident, since the monster-bit components were the only ones actually replaced by the focus, so it was a bad question). Even taking the broadest possible definition so the focus applies to as many spells as possible, you still have half a dozen random spells that need specific addressing, in the PHB alone, as these are not spells that are expected to require quests or making up prices for monster-bits.



So, which is it? Does the Arcane Focus only matter for a small handful of spells with monster-bit components, or does it dump the entire material component system except for a small handful of spells that happen to be written with monster-bit components, which are now effectively nerfed because of their arbitrary joke components?



I submit:

Material and focus components vary depending on the person, and are always things they have reasonably readily available in their environment. As most spells come to mind or are worked out in study, the practitioner chooses material components and/or foci to match them, selecting things that are familiar, cheap or easy to find, and for materials easy to replace. Pinches of dust, dirt, powder, drops of water or other liquids, unspecified or general animal hairs or feathers, rocks and minerals in varying shapes, simply shaped bits of metal or wood, etc. Anything that they would naturally be familiar with and has a thematic link, as a spell comes to mind and demands some sort of component, they could use for it. Expensive components retain their cost and their usual form, unless a change is granted to rectify a clash in character theme with the published description.

Many published spells have the same components as others, sometimes even when the spells have little to do with each other, and further many have a series of alternate components such as multiple dead bugs instead of a live one, pitch instead of oil or charcoal, etc.

Therefore, each individual's spell component pouch contains maybe a dozen assorted foci and/or material components, which in various combinations serve all of their spells. Said items could serve for maybe up to twice as many spells at once, more if the individual follows a very narrow theme of spells (such as having mostly ice spells, or fire spells, or animal related spells, etc).

A player can choose components and foci for their spells (say half or so at least should use materials rather than foci). Published components can be used wholesale or for inspiration, but those which are clearly not readily available to a given person are always replaced with something more appropriate. If the group does not find this interesting it can be safely ignored without impacting normal gameplay, since in the end it all goes into one (or two, three at most) spell component pouches anyway. However, without a list of defined components, a spellcaster cannot hide, stockpile, or replace an individual component: they must abide by any ruling the DM makes on their supplies running dry, and if their spell component pouch is lost, are not allowed to cast any spells until it is entirely replaced.

Exception: Cantrips would grossly inflate the count, and as such are "free" in this system. They either have no components, or are assumed to always piggyback on those of more powerful spells without impacting them. A higher level spellcaster might have so many spells ready that they should carry two pouches, maybe even three for an eclectic wizard at the far end, but the long list of free minor effects given to all casters is not meant to require an entire separate bag.

[Ashtagon]

So it might seem I accidentally wrote in my first post the diametric opposite of what I intended. Please take it to mean what I intended, instead of holding me to my original words as the one true gospel.

The intent is that, generally speaking anything that Eschew Materials currently covers is covered and changed to an AF item. The exceptions being things that are dangerous to forage (for a 1st level warrior with non-magical and affordable for him precautions), things that require going to another plane/world to acquire, and things that are specifically called out in the description as rare, exotic, or hard-to-acquire.

[loky1109]

Snowcasting (Frostburn, p. 50)

[Fizban]

So it might seem I accidentally wrote in my first post the diametric opposite of what I intended. Please take it to mean what I intended, instead of holding me to my original words as the one true gospel.
Like I said, I did read it as that the first time anyway, which is why I went through all the PHB material components to find examples that weren't actually cheap or easy, so . . .


The intent is that, generally speaking anything that Eschew Materials currently covers is covered and changed to an AF item. The exceptions being things that are dangerous to forage (for a 1st level warrior with non-magical and affordable for him precautions), things that require going to another plane/world to acquire, and things that are specifically called out in the description as rare, exotic, or hard-to-acquire.
But this creates exceptions that Eschew Materials/standard pouch doesn't have, the list of spells that happen to have monster-bits or other rare components which are un-priced, which are now harder to cast than before.

Even just those we agree on include Black Tentacles, Ghoul Touch, Mnemonic Enhancer, Scare, Secret Page, Sequester, and Wind Wall. A random assortment of true power spells, spells of variable cheesing worth, spells most people care about so little they don't know they exist, and spells found commonly on NPC lists (and probably with more in other books of course). They are joined together only by joke components written with no regard for the actual value of what is mentioned in the joke, filtered through a lens that makes an effort to distinguish those components, but does not change or account for them. As I said, it would be easier and clearer to simply replace all material components that aren't linked to the spell's target (or have gp costs).

Or to phrase it another way: what is your goal in keeping only these few un-priced material components that happen to avoid the definition of those being replaced? Making the Arcane Focus cover as many things as possible only makes those few left even more obvious vestiges that failed to be stamped out, rather than keeping the system alive and relevant (something I consider a precondition for any "fixing" of Eschew Materials, the fixing and maintained relevance of materials in the first place- as you were not responding initially to me nor agreed to it later, this it not meant to be a gotcha).



I don't think it's possible to fix the material component system without abstracting the components out (and simply replacing them entirely with a single casting focus is a replacement, not a fix). Attempting to assign broad multiple choice components to every spell will still inevitably fail when some combination that a character would normally be allowed to take ends up not making sense with where they live. But creating a looser guideline with clearer goals that allows material components to be completely undefined by the spell, and thus applied to as many or as few spells as desired in conjunction with whatever role or lack of role the components are meant to play mechanically: I think what I've suggested may be the only real solution. Still a bit wordy though.


The difference between a focus and materials is that a focus isn't annihilated as part of the casting.

The component pouch is a handwave device. Honestly I think it is a little too much handwaving for some spells. Take magic circle against evil for example. You need enough silver to make a 3 ft diameter unbroken circle within the time frame of a standard action. Yeah. That would be a lot of silver. It doesnt have a specific price but that amount would be quite substantial to fit in only one pouch. At least it doesn't require the circle to be a perfect circle, or does it?
25gp of silver is five pounds, so yes it would almost certainly be stored in its own little bag, rather than dumped in with the un-priced un-weighted components. But it's also a component with a defined gp cost and weight already, so yeah. You'd just tie it to your belt alongside the spell component pouch, belt pouch, weapon sheathes . . .

[bean illus]

?

Does everyone allow archers infinite ammo?

I don't care for the infinite components spell pouch. It seems like one more boost to the most powerful class in the game.

My fix: when you buy a spell pouch, you can choose 20 items, which are always available at the shop. They can be replenished at any shop, at any time. It is your responsibility to track them. I do make it reasonably easy to find spiders, etc, but there are some items that are not laying on the dungeon floor.

If you carry multiple pouches, you must make a concentration check at DC 10 +1 for every pouch you carry, to not mistakenly reach for the wrong pouch.

It does reduce the chance of a sunder, or slight of hand, which is nice. By mid levels, a caster makes the concentration check every time.

I realize that, this doesn't change much, and barely fixes anything. But i just can't stand the free ammo for wizards. It does occasionally create interesting roll play, or combat situations.

[Silly Name]

?

Does everyone allow archers infinite ammo?

I mean... my players track their ammo, but I don't particularly enforce it, same way we don't tend to play tightly by the carrying capacity rules, especially once Handy Haversacks and Bags of Holding start to come into play. Eventually every archer will find a quiver of Ehlonna or similiar items that trivialises the bookkeeping, or even come across some magical bow that creates its own arrows when the string is drawn.

(I *do* track special and magical ammo, though)


I don't care for the infinite components spell pouch. It seems like one more boost to the most powerful class in the game.

Hardly, it's the baseline assumption for casters. Nine times out of ten, the component is just some silly joke or pun associated with the spell, and the only times the existence of material components is when they're costly, rare, or the caster is somehow unable to reach their pouch (in a grapple, or because it's been lost or destroyed). Having infinite non-costly material components is one of the core assumptions of the magic system.


If you carry multiple pouches, you must make a concentration check at DC 10 +1 for every pouch you carry, to not mistakenly reach for the wrong pouch.

I tried playing with various "roll to cast" houserules, and they always slow down the casters' turns more than normal, which are already prone to slow play when they have a bunch of viable options.

[Drelua]

Yeah I absolutely give infinite regular arrows, tracking them doesn't really add anything to the game IMO, and compared to every other bit of gear the players probably have they're dirt cheap. I don't see why not, fun is the most important thing, and resource management is not my idea of fun.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I feel the need to repeat my invocation of Grod's Law. Don't fix a problematic mechanic by making it annoying to use (or, in this case, so annoying that you just pay the Eschew feat tax).

[NilsRichter]

There is one more use from Eschew Materials that no one has mentioned yet:

Imagine the adventurers are parted from their gear. (Maybe the party got framed for murder and decided not to massacre the usually allied city guard, and got taken to gaol.) Suddenly many of their usual options are no longer available.

The Archer is in tears, the Paladin feels naked, the Monk and the Warlock are grinning at each other, and the Spellcasters' players are desperately searching for spells without material components.

[Quertus]

A piece of sunstone and a naked flame- I assume the former is a gem/mineral/rock of some sort, but the latter flat out cannot be stored in a pouch.

You just need to be very passionate with someone very small, strip their clothes off, and stuff them in a bag. Voila! Naked flame, stored in a pouch. :smallamused:

[Ashtagon]

There is one more use from Eschew Materials that no one has mentioned yet:

Imagine the adventurers are parted from their gear. (Maybe the party got framed for murder and decided not to massacre the usually allied city guard, and got taken to gaol.) Suddenly many of their usual options are no longer available.

The Archer is in tears, the Paladin feels naked, the Monk and the Warlock are grinning at each other, and the Spellcasters' players are desperately searching for spells without material components.

Module A4 has a lot to answer for.

[Twurps]

Agree, in a literal sense. Material components are a joke. Yes, you can mumble something about sympathetic magic. But when throwing a pie at somebody results in hideous laughter, that is a terrible pun. So is 1cp to detect thoughts (penny for your thoughts).

As for the penny, I kinda like that one. You call it a joke, but it could also easily be the entire 'in game' reason while the whole expression came into being in the first place.

I got nothing for the pie though.. that one is just sad.

[Segev]

While I think the OP's suggestion is too powerful for just one feat, the idea is intriguing. What if it were not an epic feat, but merely a feat that had Eschew Materials as a prerequisite? Maybe two feats: first for up to 50 gp, second gets you all the way to 250?

House rule fabricate to have the materials as targets rather than components or foci to close that one silly loophole.

I feel this thread, tangentially, also deserves to have blood money (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money/) pointed out.

[Prime32]

One suggestion: retrieving a material component is always a move action. Eschew Materials is a psionic feat which allows you to use your personal energy as a substitute "spark" for your spells, and requires you to expend your psionic focus to use it.
This makes it useful, but not spammable, and also gives it a bit more allure as something that not all casters are capable of.

[Darg]

Retrieving material components already is a move action (even though most people ignore this or don't really know about it) and making eschew materials a psionic feat that requires expending a full-round action is simply making it worse for no reason. Eschew materials is not a strong feat, but neither is it weak. Honestly it is one of the better designed feats out there. It provides a marked improvement in action economy while providing an extremely convenient service. There are times when a caster is separated from their components. It happens. It's also useful if you prefer the gish playstyle. Combine it with the Somatic Weaponry feat and you don't need a free hand to cast a spell, only one that can hold something like a mithril light shield.

[Malphegor]

I for one would give it its +0 metamagic feat status back. As it does alter the way you cast spells (and it would make it easier to qualify for classes that require ‘any one metamagic feat’ without taking a junk feat you’ll never use)

[Darg]

It was a metamagic feat? I guess they wanted to make it more useable for spontaneous casters.