Quicken Metamagic for Sorcerors and Bards

[Hachristo]

According to PHB, quicken spell can't be applied to spells cast spontaneously, such as sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously, since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action. Even a quicken spell metamagic rod won't help for sorcerers, as a sorceror must still take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod.

Why? Please explain.

[gijoemike]

To punish sorcs/bards for having all their spells known available to cast at any time applying metamagic on the fly was made into a full round action. But this completely defeats the purpose of Quicken spell metamagic. Applying quicken is pointless if in the process of applying quicken it makes the spell take even longer to cast.

There is a sorcerer alt class feature called metamagic specialist. That ACF lets you apply metamagic to spontanous cast sorc spells without extending the cast time.


Bards and sorcs have a feat or ACF that gives them a spell book. From there one can prepare spells ahead of time and metamagic doesn't extend those cast times.


Is it painful. YES, very much so. One could house rule it that quicken works as intended but is the only Metamagic that does. Also you could apply some nonsense with Rapid Spell and quicken.

[Biggus]

There are also the feats Arcane Preparation (CArc) and Rapid Metamagic (CM), and also a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC). Agreed there's no good reason they should be needed in the first place though.

[Ramza00]

Why? Please explain.

2000 Game Design, but also specific Game Designers that I am going to skip over right now. But they had ideas of balance.

Several years later we had better ideas that this limitation was unnecessary but we had rule debt, thus feats and ACFs to bypass rule debt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

RAW, the general rule actually allows spontaneously cast spells to work with quicken, and the part that says it doesn't work is actually an exception to that rule.

Here's the relevant rules text (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):
"If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."

Did you see that? The rule about spells taking longer to cast only affects spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or longer. So if the casting time is less than a standard action, such as a swift action spell like Wraithstrike or Feather Fall, a metamagic version of it doesn't take any longer than normal to cast. A Quickened spell takes less than a standard action, so RAW this rule wouldn't apply to it, except they decided to write in an exception to this rule specifically for the purpose of making it not work.

[JNAProductions]

RAW, the general rule actually allows spontaneously cast spells to work with quicken, and the part that says it doesn't work is actually an exception to that rule.

Here's the relevant rules text (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):
"If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."

Did you see that? The rule about spells taking longer to cast only affects spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or longer. So if the casting time is less than a standard action, such as a swift action spell like Wraithstrike or Feather Fall, a metamagic version of it doesn't take any longer than normal to cast. A Quickened spell takes less than a standard action, so RAW this rule wouldn't apply to it, except they decided to write in an exception to this rule specifically for the purpose of making it not work.

That's not how I read it.

"If the spell's normal casting time," which would be its casting time before you apply any metamagic.

[Darg]

If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time, as described under Cast a Spell, page 143.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.


Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can per-form another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

Basically, there is no actual reason. The reason provided contradicts the benefit of the feat and the general vs specific rules priority. The DM can rule it how they wish technically and there really isn't a reason not to rule in favor of the character considering the weaknesses of spontaneous casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's not how I read it.

"If the spell's normal casting time," which would be its casting time before you apply any metamagic.

Then in that case, a standard action spell with metamagic becomes a full-round action, and quicken is still able to reduce it to a swift action. It's dependent on order of operations, which means the owner of the effects (i.e. the caster) applies them in the most beneficial order.

[Gruftzwerg]

As others have pointed out the designer thought at the start of 3.0/3.5 that spontaneous casting would be very strong and needs some handicaps. Later after realizing the mistake they offered some cheese for at least the Sorcerer here and there to make up for it..



other ways to Quicken: e.g. Escalation Mage
Many prc abilities work like Quicken Spell but still work for Sorcerer. As such you can cast 2 Arcane Fusions per round.

Sorcerer only spells are another goodie they have got to make up for their shortcomings compared to Wizards. Most important here...

(Greater) Arcane Fusion (5th / 8th)
AF lets you cast 2 spells as one. A bit restricted by lvl (1st and 1-4th lvl for the normal version; 4th lvl or lower + 7th lvl or lower for the greater version).

Twin Spell: AF
Twin Spell combined with AF for is another method to let the prepared casters be jealous, even if it comes late (9th lvl slot without metamagic reducers).

It's not better and not worse. Just different imho.

[Darg]

As others have pointed out the designer thought at the start of 3.0/3.5 that spontaneous casting would be very strong and needs some handicaps. Later after realizing the mistake they offered some cheese for at least the Sorcerer here and there to make up for it..



other ways to Quicken: e.g. Escalation Mage
Many prc abilities work like Quicken Spell but still work for Sorcerer. As such you can cast 2 Arcane Fusions per round.

Sorcerer only spells are another goodie they have got to make up for their shortcomings compared to Wizards. Most important here...

(Greater) Arcane Fusion (5th / 8th)
AF lets you cast 2 spells as one. A bit restricted by lvl (1st and 1-4th lvl for the normal version; 4th lvl or lower + 7th lvl or lower for the greater version).

Twin Spell: AF
Twin Spell combined with AF for is another method to let the prepared casters be jealous, even if it comes late (9th lvl slot without metamagic reducers).

It's not better and not worse. Just different imho.


Shadow Haste: By the time you reach 5th level, you can entreat the Shadow to catalyze your spellcasting. You can attempt to cast the spell with a casting time of 1 full-round action or less as a swift action, as though using the Quicken Spell metamagic feat.

Escalation mage doesn't get around the feat limitation.


Then in that case, a standard action spell with metamagic becomes a full-round action, and quicken is still able to reduce it to a swift action. It's dependent on order of operations, which means the owner of the effects (i.e. the caster) applies them in the most beneficial order.

"most beneficial order" is something the FAQ made up to make it more fun for the player even if harmful for the table or roleplay (see the ruling on wild mage with practiced spellcaster). Not everyone actually uses such a thing. Personally I prefer to first arbitrate general vs specific, then order of operations based on when an effect is to take place (wild magic happens when they cast vs practiced spellcaster providing the benefit at all times = practiced spellcaster's benefit is applied before), and lastly IF they happen at exactly the same time then the order that is most beneficial because at this point it would be too nitpicky.

The most relevant rule for quicken spell is general vs specific and the special text has a general rule overriding specific rule text which is contrary to how the system is structured.

[Gruftzwerg]

Escalation mage doesn't get around the feat limitation.

It does:

Escalation (Su): By appealing to the arcane mastery of the Shadow, you put yourself at risk in exchange for the promise of power. Beginning at 2nd level, you learn how to instantly work such appeals into your arcane spellcasting, mimicking the effects of metamagic feats. These escalations do not actually change the spell's level or casting time.

While the Escalation ability refers to Metamagic, it is more specific here and thus trumps the general Metamagic rules for spontaneous casters. Have fun with Shadow Hasting your (Greater) Arcane Fusion and then casting a regular one ;)

[Albanymusicfund]

Why? Please explain.[/QUOTE]

The Wizards of the Coast writers have a hard-on for wizards, go figure.

[Zaq]

It does:

While the Escalation ability refers to Metamagic, it is more specific here and thus trumps the general Metamagic rules for spontaneous casters. Have fun with Shadow Hasting your (Greater) Arcane Fusion and then casting a regular one ;)

You're right, but I am still amused by the slight dysfunction inherent in a quickening ability stating that it doesn't affect the casting time. I don't think anyone anywhere actually uses this interpretation, but by RAW, getting it down to a swift action would be "affecting the casting time," which it's explicitly stated not to do.

As I mentioned, a bit dysfunctional. Intent is clear enough that I doubt it bothers anyone.

[Gruftzwerg]

You're right, but I am still amused by the slight dysfunction inherent in a quickening ability stating that it doesn't affect the casting time. I don't think anyone anywhere actually uses this interpretation, but by RAW, getting it down to a swift action would be "affecting the casting time," which it's explicitly stated not to do.

As I mentioned, a bit dysfunctional. Intent is clear enough that I doubt it bothers anyone.

It's not dysfunctional. Let me explain the ruling here. I'll start with the already mentioned point..

1. The Escalation ability is more specific than the general rule for Spontaneous Metamagic and thus trumps it.

2. The Shadow Hast ability is more specific than the general rules for "Escalations" and thus trumps it.

"General" and "Specific" aren't static values. They are dependent on the situation and the circumstances. While "Escalation" is "more specific" when compared to "general" Spontaneous Metamagic rules, it becomes "General" itself when compared to the "Shadow Haste" ability. This aspect of the Primary Source Rule can be irritating if you aren't aware of it.
I hope I could clear your doubts here? ^^