Getting Access to Summon Monster

[Zombulian]

Suppose you’re playing a divine caster who wants to get into Nar Demonbinder but Summon Monster isn’t natively on your list. How could you fix that?

I have 3.5 ideas right now.
1. Take Initiate of Olidammara. Olidammara’s Bard Spell gives
you access to the Bard spell list up to 3rd level.

2. Take Magical Training (Wizard) and copy a Summon Monster spell into your spellbook. Having a spell in your spellbook and knowing the spell may be different things though.

2.5. Take Magical Training, Alternate Source Spell, and Arcane Disciple (Summoner Domain), treating your Divine casting side as the arcane casting for the purposes of the feat.

3. Just take a dip in any class that has access to the spell.

[Saintheart]

Extra Spell cheese?

[Zarvistic]

Radiant Fire for another initiate feat.

[Zombulian]

Extra Spell cheese?

I’d considered that, but that feat is so hard to parse.


Radiant Fire for another initiate feat.

Unfortunately that feat requires Cleric levels, which get SM natively.

[Thurbane]

I was going to suggest Summon Monster as an SLA (since SLAs can sub for specific spells when it comes to reqs), but the wording of Nar Demonbinder is a bit weird "knowledge of at least one summon monster spell".

Nightbringer Initiate feat adds Summon Monster V to a Druid's spell list.

[Zarvistic]

Unfortunately that feat requires Cleric levels, which get SM natively.[/QUOTE]
I think some others like favored soul can take it too, but I suppose that's not much different either to matter.

What's the class you're thinking of, healer?

[Zombulian]

Unfortunately that feat requires Cleric levels, which get SM natively.
I think some others like favored soul can take it too, but I suppose that's not much different either to matter.

What's the class you're thinking of, healer?[/QUOTE]

Urban Druid actually.


I was going to suggest Summon Monster as an SLA (since SLAs can sub for specific spells when it comes to reqs), but the wording of Nar Demonbinder is a bit weird "knowledge of at least one summon monster spell".

Nightbringer Initiate feat adds Summon Monster V to a Druid's spell list.

This is why I considered Magical Training and scribing the spell into the spellbook. Does that count as knowing?

[Particle_Man]

With DM permission, maybe do a private research on a new spell like Summon Monster 0? As a zero level spell it shouldn't be that hard, and is all you need.

[Thurbane]

Urban Druid actually.

Nghtbringer Initiate adds Summon Monster V to the Druid spell list - a generous reading might include Urban Druid, but probably not.

[Zombulian]

Nghtbringer Initiate adds Summon Monster V to the Druid spell list - a generous reading might include Urban Druid, but probably not.

The feat also requires spontaneous SNA which Urban Druid doesn’t get :/

[Thurbane]

Divine Disciple or Contemplative can both give bonus domains (including the ones that give Summon Monster), but come online fairly late if you are trying to get into Nar Demonbinder.

Maybe Planar Touchstone / Catalogues of Enlightenment might work with the right domain?

[Crake]

but the wording of Nar Demonbinder is a bit weird "knowledge of at least one summon monster spell".

That actually makes it rather difficult, because clerics and druids don't actually count as knowing any of their spells according to the definition of what spells known is in the phb. Only sorcerers and wizards, and classes that mimic their casting (like bards, assassins, archivists, favoured soul etc), "know" any spells, but divine casters who pray for their spells will never qualify, as even if the spell is on their spell list, they still don't actually count as knowing that spell.


This is why I considered Magical Training and scribing the spell into the spellbook. Does that count as knowing?

Yes, that should technically qualify, as a wizard counts as knowing all the spells in their spellbook, even if they aren't capable of casting them.

[WhamBamSam]

Divine Disciple or Contemplative can both give bonus domains (including the ones that give Summon Monster), but come online fairly late if you are trying to get into Nar Demonbinder.

Maybe Planar Touchstone / Catalogues of Enlightenment might work with the right domain?Planar Touchstone (Catalogues) is my usual go-to. Since the higher order abilities are cast as spells, it even arguably can cheese you into NDB without otherwise being a caster.

For earlier access than Divine Disciple/Contemplative, you can use something like Divine Oracle or Holt Warden that gives a specific domain and then UMD a wand of Substitute Domain to swap it out for Summoner.

If SLAs count as knowledge of the spell, and for this purpose it seems like they should. Touch of Summoning (though its an Eberron regional feat which might have a setting conflict with NDB) or the Draconic Rite of Passage can get you SM I.

[Zombulian]

That actually makes it rather difficult, because clerics and druids don't actually count as knowing any of their spells according to the definition of what spells known is in the phb. Only sorcerers and wizards, and classes that mimic their casting (like bards, assassins, archivists, favoured soul etc), "know" any spells, but divine casters who pray for their spells will never qualify, as even if the spell is on their spell list, they still don't actually count as knowing that spell.

Hmm that is troublesome. Funny that the wording is that way when NDB can explicitly qualify through divine casting and generally it seems that PrC's are written with the assumption that Cleric and Druid are the only actual divine casters.


Yes, that should technically qualify, as a wizard counts as knowing all the spells in their spellbook, even if they aren't capable of casting them.


Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

Aha. Very nice.


Planar Touchstone (Catalogues) is my usual go-to. Since the higher order abilities are cast as spells, it even arguably can cheese you into NDB without otherwise being a caster.

For earlier access than Divine Disciple/Contemplative, you can use something like Divine Oracle or Holt Warden that gives a specific domain and then UMD a wand of Substitute Domain to swap it out for Summoner.

If SLAs count as knowledge of the spell, and for this purpose it seems like they should. Touch of Summoning (though its an Eberron regional feat which might have a setting conflict with NDB) or the Draconic Rite of Passage can get you SM I.

Ah I knew that PT (Catalogues) would give access to the domain power, I forgot about Higher-Order Uses. It's pretty explicit that it allows you to cast spells from that domain, but now it does make me wonder if that counts for the "knowing" part...

Touch of Summoning is about as straightforward as I could have asked for! I knew there'd be a feat like that out there somewhere.

[Darg]

The feat also requires spontaneous SNA which Urban Druid doesn’t get :/

If there was a way to get SNA on the urban druids spell list, they could get the spontaneous summoner feat.

[Calthropstu]

Argue that knowledge arcane gives you knowledge of summon monster. And that spellcraft teaches you how it is cast Alternatively add a rank in knowledge:summon monster.

Hope this helps!

[Zombulian]

Argue that knowledge arcane gives you knowledge of summon monster. And that spellcraft teaches you how it is cast Alternatively add a rank in knowledge:summon monster.

Hope this helps!

I know you’re joking but in all honesty, how meaningful is the phrase “must know X spell” when most other instances of casting requirements are phrased “must be able to cast X spell” or “must have X spell known”?

It may very well be possible that simply being aware of Summon Monster spells and capable of casting 4th level spells qualifies you for NDB.