Best spells for upcasting

[heavyfuel]

It's no secret that - generally speaking - upcasting is bad. It's far more effective to cast Fireball (average 28 dmg) than it is to upcast Burning Hands (average 17.5 dmg). This is not to say "upcasting is always bad", only that it's bad as a general rule. And, like every general rule, there plenty of exceptions.

What are these exceptions?


The Criteria

My criteria for the exceptions is that they must be at least twice as effective as the base spell when cast 1 level higher. Command is great when upcast because it targets twice as many creatures at level 2. Magic Missile only deals 33% more damage, so it's not especially good to upcast. Obviously, spells with other benefits due to upcasting will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.


The Spells

Armor of Agathys - you gain 5 times the spell level not only in Temp HP, but also in damage. Its double linear scaling means it's among the best upcasting spells.

Summon X (from Tasha's) - Gaining an extra attack is always nice, plus the crature also gains HP, AC, and damage.

Single Target Save-or-suck (Hold Person, Command, etc) - CC-ing multiple creatures is considereably better than CC-ing only one. Turning a 4v4 into a 4v2 is much much better than turning it into a 4v3.

Single Target Buffs (Invisibility, Fly) - Allowing more than one ally to benefit from the spell is - in these cases - about as good as having multiple Concentration spells at once. Just, don't fail those Con saves.

Mass Suggestion - Great increase in duration

Geas - Great increase in duration

Planar Binging - Great increase in duration

Bestow Curse - Decent increase in duration (unless it's a 9th level spell) but at 5th level it loses Concentration requirement

Glyph of Warding - Can use better spells

Major Image - Loses concentration requirement

Aid - Similar to Armor of Agatys, you get 5 times the spell level in HP. Unlike AoA, it's actual HP and affects 3 creatures

Continual Flame - Cast during downtime to dispel higher level Darkness effects on demand

[SharkForce]

mass suggestion (duration increases dramatically)
geas (duration increases dramatically)
planar binding (presuming your DM actually makes it function, duration increases dramatically)
bestow curse (loses concentration requirement)
potentially certain summoning spells (especially when combined with planar binding)
glyph of warding (can store a higher level spell)
major image (loses concentration requirements)
potentially some summoning spells (certain creatures can become available, and can be worth the higher spell slot. also, for the group options, more minions are often worth it as well)
aid (more max hit points is great)
continual flame (cast during downtime, dispel higher level darkness effects)
invisibility (sometimes you just need the whole party to be invisible, rather than just one person)

[stoutstien]

Erupting Earth- for a blasty aoe with DT effect it scales well.

Fog cloud- 20ft per spell level is a massive boost in area of effect.

Bestow curse +5 slot- concentration free and long duration.

Catapult- bigger items and more damage. Ready an action to smack a giant with their own rock.

Aid- rare effect with long duration

Magic missile- scales pretty well for an automatic hitting option

Scorching Ray- see above but for anyone who can gain advantage on the rolls.

Tasha's mind whip- chance of action dental scaling with targets and hits intelligence.

Tiny servant- spell mention for concentration free minions at lower tiers then the big army building later on.

[BoxANT]

don't discount an upcast Bless

[Tanarii]

Fly (add more targets)

Edit: also upcasting just for more damage increases in value for certain multiclass builds, where you have significantly higher level slots than you do spells known/prepared.

[Verble]

I'm a fan of upcasting flaming sphere on a warlock, especially the Celestial Warlock.

It provides some damage and control elements, it is moveable, and gives you a use for your bonus action if that's lacking.

Being concentration it conflicts with Hex but as a warlock your spells are heavily determined by concentration and whether you keep hex or not.

[heavyfuel]

mass suggestion (duration increases dramatically)
geas (duration increases dramatically)
planar binding (presuming your DM actually makes it function, duration increases dramatically)
bestow curse (loses concentration requirement)
potentially certain summoning spells (especially when combined with planar binding)
glyph of warding (can store a higher level spell)
major image (loses concentration requirements)
potentially some summoning spells (certain creatures can become available, and can be worth the higher spell slot. also, for the group options, more minions are often worth it as well)
aid (more max hit points is great)
continual flame (cast during downtime, dispel higher level darkness effects)
invisibility (sometimes you just need the whole party to be invisible, rather than just one person)

Agree with all of these. Will add them to the list shortly (in a day or two)



Erupting Earth- for a blasty aoe with DT effect it scales well.

Fog cloud- 20ft per spell level is a massive boost in area of effect.

Bestow curse +5 slot- concentration free and long duration.

Catapult- bigger items and more damage. Ready an action to smack a giant with their own rock.

Aid- rare effect with long duration

Magic missile- scales pretty well for an automatic hitting option

Scorching Ray- see above but for anyone who can gain advantage on the rolls.

Tasha's mind whip- chance of action dental scaling with targets and hits intelligence.

Tiny servant- spell mention for concentration free minions at lower tiers then the big army building later on.

In order:

+1/3 base damage per level isn't so great

Agreed on the principle, but how often do you really need such a huge AoE? Honest question, is it actually useful to have an AoE this large? Still, it undoubtedly upcasts well.

+1/3 base damage per level isn't so great

Agreed

+1/3 base damage per level isn't so great

Agreed, will add to the "single target debuff" category

On a similar note to Fog Cloud, how useful is an army of Tiny Servants really? Is it worth to spend, say, a 7th level slot on 9 servants? Still, it undoubtedly upcasts well.


don't discount an upcast Bless

Why? It only upcasts to include 1/3 more creatures at level 2, and even fewer (proportionally) creatures at higher levels. How many creatures do you have making attack rolls in a party? I can see a niche use with a Shepherd Druid, but that's not really what I'm looking for.


Fly (add more targets)

Edit: also upcasting just for more damage increases in value for certain multiclass builds, where you have significantly higher level slots than you do spells known/prepared.

I'll just add a similar category to the last one: single target buffs that target more people (Fly, Invisibility, etc)

[msfnc]

Hex/Hunter’s Mark’s duration scaling is a worthwhile use of higher-level slots. But I main Rangers, so I my judgement is questionable.

[airless_wing]

Upcasted Call Lightning is actually really good, especially against some of the gargantuan titans in the MM, since many of them don’t seem to have great Dex saves.

[Eldariel]

I'll just add a similar category to the last one: single target buffs that target more people (Fly, Invisibility, etc)

At least as important are single-target debuffs that multitarget (Blindness, Banishment, Command, Hold Person, Hold Monster, etc.). In general, multitargeting is the best form of upcasting. Should probably try to be exhaustive with the list: those are actually really valuable and there are few spells like Command that I feel like people don't actually always realise upcast that way (gets rarely mentioned in the comparisons with Dissonant Whispers even though that's the one huge thing making Command a much better spell).

Also, not Tasha's Summon but Summon Greater Demon upcasts excellently; the good options just keep coming. Infernal Calling too to a lesser degree, but its base level is pretty poor so you really just need a Talisman for it to work. All the horde Conjure spells like Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, Tiny Servant, etc. which upcast to summon hordes obviously also upcast stupidly well (Tiny Servant is notable in that it's not really even worth casting on level 3 but the level 5 upcast is pretty darn good).

Summon Lesser Demons peculiarly takes an extra level to double the numbers and it's such a cruddy spell that even being able to get hordes doesn't really save it. Animate Dead is an exception in terms of minionmancy which actually upcasts poorly but has high enough base value for that to not really matter.

Then Cleric damage spells: Spirit Guardians "only" gets +1d8 but it's actually pretty substantial on a repeating DoT with a ½ on fail, and Spiritual Weapon straight-up doubles its dice from one spell level (but higher than like level 5 upcasting is very questionable). Inflict Wounds upcasts well enough to mostly outperform all higher level Cleric nukes...which isn't saying much (it really isn't much to write home about but it's better than Harm or such). Mostly these are spells that simply don't have any "replacers" higher up so they are worth upcasting based on their unique, powerful effect alone.

Back on the Wizard-side, Shadow Blade too upcasts pretty well if only because it gets easily applied so many times, and same goes for Spirit Shroud (using it with e.g. Scorching Ray 6 means every point of upcasting gives you +4d8 or so for example).

Many of the HP buffer spells too; AoA is of course the posterboy but Aid, False Life and company are also worth noting as spells that are generally worth only upcasting since you only benefit of the highest level of such effect anyways and if you need the effect, you generally wanna upcast them.

[heavyfuel]

Hello everyone! Just posting to let you know that I've edited the OP with some of the spells mentioned here as well as gave a proper criteria of what I consider "good" when it comes to upcasting. Cheers!

[RogueJK]

I dunno... I think that criteria is overly narrow, since it rules out some otherwise good upcasting options that just aren't "twice as effective for 1 more spell level".

For example, Shadow Blade can be worth upcasting into a 3rd level slot (and sometimes even a 5th level slot) for something like a Bladesinger or a DEX-based Eldritch Knight (like LudicSavant's Soulknife build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523)).

+50% damage dice to each of your melee attacks isn't quite "twice as good", but it's nothing to sneeze at if you're focusing on melee. And upcasting Shadow Blade in a 3rd level slot (3d8) is better than using that same 3rd level slot to cast something like Spirit Shroud and just using a rapier (2d8).

[heavyfuel]

I dunno... I think that criteria is overly narrow, since it rules out some otherwise good upcasting options that just aren't "twice as effective for 1 more spell level".

For example, Shadow Blade can be worth upcasting into a 3rd level slot (and sometimes even a 5th level slot) for something like a Bladesinger or a DEX-based Eldritch Knight (like LudicSavant's Soulknife build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523)).

+50% damage dice to each of your melee attacks isn't quite "twice as good", but it's nothing to sneeze at if you're focusing on melee. And upcasting Shadow Blade in a 3rd level slot is better than using that same 3rd level slot to cast something like Spirit Shroud and just using a rapier.

"Overly narrow" is the goal here. It's impossible to consider every scenario where an upcast spell might be ideal. I'm sure people can come up with situations where upcasting Burning Hands is honestly the best option for a character. The goal of this thread is to see which spells are generally good to upcast, not spells that are situationally good to upcast.

Also, spells like Shadowblade, Spiritual Weapon, and Cure Wounds aren't as effective when upcast because they all upcast improving their dice, but not the ability mod. 3rd level SB isn't 50% better than 2nd level SB, because 3d8+Dex isn't 50% more than 2d8+Dex (unless our Dex mod is 0)

[RogueJK]

3rd level SB isn't 50% better than 2nd level SB, because 3d8+Dex isn't 50% more than 2d8+Dex (unless our Dex mod is 0)

Which is why I specified "+50% damage dice".

[heavyfuel]

Which is why I specified "+50% damage dice".

My bad, didn't see the word "dice" there. Still, not particularly great at being upcast

[stoutstien]

Sometimes actions are more valuable than spell slots so while upcasting isn't the most attractive idea sometimes it's the best one. More applicable for bards who lack higher level blasts or sorcerer who need be more selective in spell picks.

no damage spell scales well but some scale better so might as well have that as an option.

Edit- counterspell and dispel scale pretty well considering the auto cancel effects.

[Tanarii]

Apart from Fireball and Lightning Bolt, which are intentionally OP for their level, do new level of spells spells generally follow the design of 2x as much damage as spells of the previous level? I'd have to dig through books to compare but that seems high.

Edit: better yet, dig out Kryx's old spreadsheet that evaluated spells, especially damage spells.

[Valmark]

Apart from Fireball and Lightning Bolt, which are intentionally OP for their level, do new level of spells spells generally follow the design of 2x as much damage as spells of the previous level? I'd have to dig through books to compare but that seems high.

Edit: better yet, dig out Kryx's old spreadsheet that evaluated spells, especially damage spells.

If they did Fireball and Lightning Bolt would need to deal even more damage, I think. As an example Burning Hands deals 10.5 average damage- a Fireball deals 28 of average while with that design it'd need to deal 42 average damage which would be way overboard IMO.

EDIT: Speaking of which, Dragon's Breath scales pretty well actually. It doesn't do a lot of damage but it can be repeated over multiple turns- and you can cast it on someone else.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Spiritual Weapon straight-up doubles its dice from one spell level.

Is that actually correct? I've always thought that you had to cast it at 4th level to get the second damage die. "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above 2nd."

Sure you can cast it with a 3rd level slot. But the damage increases for every two slot levels above 2nd. Using a 3rd level slot is only one slot level above 2nd.

[borg286]

Rather than having the criteria be it must do 2x damage at a +1 level bump, might I recommend computing the damage per spell point. While a DM may not allow the variant Spell Points, it is a useful tool for analysis.
Thus we can look at how much more damage it deals per spell point spent. From this perspective and looking at raw damage, Scorching Ray's +2d6 per level is actually quite competitive if we want to deal lost of single target damage, especially when combined with Hexblade and Hex and advantage.
Chain Lightning adds +4d8 per spell level, but requires more targets that are such a threat that you'd want to damage them.

[borg286]

Here is a list of spells that let you target an additional creature when upcast
Bane
Charm Person
Command
Heroism
Longstrider
Blindness/Deafness
Enhance Ability
Invisibility
Fly
Banishment
Hold Monster
Charm Monster
Cause Fear
Elemental Bane
Intellect Fortress
Tasha's Mind Whip


I'd like to call out that the concentrations ones let you break the game the same way that Twinned Spell metamagic does for sorcerer. Concentration is so critical in the game that I view it as a slot, and a non-frontline character not using their concentration for something useful still has something to give. Frontloading damage and actions in battle is the other critical element of the game. Thus being able to dynamically double up on concentration for no extra action cost is amazing.

Cause Fear, Hold Person, Hold Monster, and Banishment are each good spells that double their effectiveness with only a few more resources spent and the same concentration commitment.

Blindness/Deafness is a great non-concentration buff and debuff that scales really well.

[heavyfuel]

Here is a list of spells that let you target an additional creature when upcast
Bane
Charm Person
Command
Heroism
Longstrider
Blindness/Deafness
Enhance Ability
Invisibility
Fly
Banishment
Hold Monster
Charm Monster
Cause Fear
Elemental Bane
Intellect Fortress
Tasha's Mind Whip


I'd like to call out that the concentrations ones let you break the game the same way that Twinned Spell metamagic does for sorcerer. Concentration is so critical in the game that I view it as a slot, and a non-frontline character not using their concentration for something useful still has something to give. Frontloading damage and actions in battle is the other critical element of the game. Thus being able to dynamically double up on concentration for no extra action cost is amazing.

Cause Fear, Hold Person, Hold Monster, and Banishment are each good spells that double their effectiveness with only a few more resources spent and the same concentration commitment.

Blindness/Deafness is a great non-concentration buff and debuff that scales really well.

That's a great list! Thanks!

[whateew]

Call lightning is often worth upscaling, as the longer you can concentrate on it, the more the benefit is seen. sure +1d10 isn't a massive boost once-off, but if you use the spell multiple times it earns its keep quick. A stars druid flying in dragon form could get a nice amount of use out of this, while keeping concentration.

Still, you always have the question of if it's worth using such a slot for damage over CC

[ImproperJustice]

Fog Cloud goes around corners so a large enough AOE will shut down an entire building or room ahead of you.

Storm Sphere upscales pretty well, adding to both the AOE and bolts.

Also, 3-5 Tiny Servants can do a lot working together.
A chain and locks, a pack of torches to burn a camp,
A pack of tireless shovels can do some work. Tools to disassemble doors and structures.
Two servants to carry a barrel of acid and three others to deliver flasks to structures.
Each Servant can hold an item too.
Or roving early warning systems.

Lots and lots of possibilities.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Tasha's Caustic Brew. You deal 2d4*spell level acid damage on a dex save, and they keep taking that damage until someone uses an action to scrape it off, and it's a line 30' long so you can nearly always get at least 2 enemies in it. and usually avoid your allies. Basically a perfect attack spell to upcast.

[LudicSavant]

It's no secret that - generally speaking - upcasting is bad. It's far more effective to cast Fireball (average 28 dmg) than it is to upcast Burning Hands (average 17.5 dmg). This is not to say "upcasting is always bad", only that it's bad as a general rule. And, like every general rule, there plenty of exceptions.

What are these exceptions?

Oh, there's a ton of exceptions that are well worth their slot level when upcast! But I think you might have stymied your own search for answers with the criteria below.



The Criteria
My criteria for the exceptions is that they must be at least twice as effective as the base spell when cast 1 level higher. Command is great when upcast because it targets twice as many creatures at level 2. Magic Missile only deals 33% more damage, so it's not especially good to upcast. Obviously, spells with other benefits due to upcasting will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

I suggest rethinking this criteria, in part because your own list already doesn't meet it. After all, Continual Flame is on your list. Is the Darkness immunity "twice as effective?" What about Glyph of Warding "using better spells?" Or "an increase in duration?" Or "removing Concentration requirement with 2 levels of upcasting?" Those things are indeed worthy of note, but don't meet your "doubling with 1 level of upcasting" criteria.

Like, imagine if you could upcast Fireball by 1 level and it got +7d6 damage instead of +1d6. That would be one of the best upcasts in the entire game, but your criteria would make it not count just because it's not a doubling over 1 level. By choosing the wrong criteria, you're going to exclude some things that you really should be upcasting.

I think a better criteria, and one that more accurately answers your original question of "what are the exceptions to upcasting being bad," would be to identify spells that outperform / are competitive with good higher level spells when upcast.

Like, it shouldn't matter that Summon Celestial doesn't create two celestials when upcast. It should matter that it's one of the best single target damage spells for a Cleric in a 6th or 8th level slot.




The Spells

Armor of Agathys - you gain 5 times the spell level not only in Temp HP, but also in damage. Its double linear scaling means it's among the best upcasting spells.

Summon X (from Tasha's) - Gaining an extra attack is always nice, plus the crature also gains HP, AC, and damage.

Single Target Save-or-suck (Hold Person, Command, etc) - CC-ing multiple creatures is considereably better than CC-ing only one. Turning a 4v4 into a 4v2 is much much better than turning it into a 4v3.

Single Target Buffs (Invisibility, Fly) - Allowing more than one ally to benefit from the spell is - in these cases - about as good as having multiple Concentration spells at once. Just, don't fail those Con saves.

Mass Suggestion - Great increase in duration

Geas - Great increase in duration

Planar Binging - Great increase in duration

Bestow Curse - Decent increase in duration (unless it's a 9th level spell) but at 5th level it loses Concentration requirement

Glyph of Warding - Can use better spells

Major Image - Loses concentration requirement

Aid - Similar to Armor of Agatys, you get 5 times the spell level in HP. Unlike AoA, it's actual HP and affects 3 creatures

Continual Flame - Cast during downtime to dispel higher level Darkness effects on demand

Some that haven't been mentioned yet:

Healing Spirit upcasts well, doubling from 1d6 to 2d6 per tick in a level 3 slot.

Quite a few of the Tasha's Summon spells upcast well to 4th, 6th, and 8th level slots. Upcast Summon Celestial for instance can hit harder than some entire martial characters, and is one of the better ways for high level Clerics to deal single target damage.

A few of the level 1 direct damage spells upcast very well to level 2 (though none upcast well to level 3+ unless you have particular synergies). For instance, Magic Missile outdamages Scorching Ray against foes of AC 14+, on top of being a better damage type, completely reliable, etc. And if comboed with features like Empowered Evocation and/or Hexblade's Curse, it can be worth upcasting to any level (seriously, it's possible to kill Tiamat in one turn with Magic Missiles, no to-hit roll needed).

Thunderwave is another example, dealing as much damage as Shatter in a second level slot, but coming with a useful rider on top of it (and that knockback rider can be used to trigger particularly deadly combos).

Scorching Ray, like Magic Missile, can be well worth upcasting beyond level 2 if comboed with certain features (like Hex, Hexblade's Curse, Flames of Phlegethos, etc).

Hellish Rebuke can be worth upcasting due to its efficient action economy, as well as certain build synergies.

[loki_ragnarock]

Cloud of Daggers upcasts for simple damage better than most pure damage spells, doesn't allow a save for damage, and allows for full party synergy for applying that damage.

Sure it's only 5 extra damage per level when upcast... but it's 5 damage per level per application, which can turn into quite an amount with the right party. Add in that magical slashing damage is resisted by either nothing or very little, and it's got better potential than most damage spells by a fair amount. That's a fair dinkum deal compared to fireball's 3 extra damage per level, 1.5 on a save, resisted by gobs of things.

Don't sell it short. It can shred in the right party.

[heavyfuel]

I suggest rethinking this criteria, in part because your own list already doesn't meet it. After all, Continual Flame is on your list. Is the Darkness immunity "twice as effective?" What about Glyph of Warding "using better spells?" Or "an increase in duration?" Or "removing Concentration requirement with 2 levels of upcasting?" Those things are indeed worthy of note, but don't meet your "doubling with 1 level of upcasting" criteria.

Like, imagine if you could upcast Fireball by 1 level and it got +7d6 damage instead of +1d6. That would be one of the best upcasts in the entire game, but your criteria would make it not count just because it's not a doubling over 1 level. By choosing the wrong criteria, you're going to exclude some things that you really should be upcasting.

I think a better criteria, and one that more accurately answers your original question of "what are the exceptions to upcasting being bad," would be to identify spells that outperform / are competitive with good higher level spells when upcast.

Like, it shouldn't matter that Summon Celestial doesn't create two celestials when upcast. It should matter that it's one of the best single target damage spells for a Cleric in a 6th or 8th level slot.


I did mention in the criteria part the following:


Obviously, spells with other benefits due to upcasting will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Is Continual Flame twice as good? Maybe not. But the fact that it can be (up)cast during downtime and then become useful with a free item interaction is definitely something that affects the rating

Summon X are in a similar category. You don't get twice as many creatures, but the creature you do have improves in a number of ways (usually more HP, AC, number of attacks, damage per attack) in that I do consider them worthy of upcasting.

I can see the Fireball argument. I guess thinking about 1st level spells got me in the wrong mindset. I think perhaps the percentage should be based off the base-level. If we follow Armor of Agathys' progression (usually considered prime example for upcasting) we have that the spell needs to increase by 1/(n-1)%, where n is the base level.

Lv 1 - n/a
Lv 2 - 100%
Lv 3 - 50%
Lv 4 - 33%
Lv 5 - 25%
Lv 6 - 20%
Lv 7 - 16.67%
Lv 8 - 14.28%
Lv 9 - 12.5%

AoA has this progression AND it scales twice. So Fireball would need to deal 33% more damage per upcasting level for it to be as good at being upcast, so it should be either 2 or 3d6 per level, which would actually make it a proper good spell at being upcast.

[sambojin]

Almost the reverse of this, but still worthwhile upcasting, is Good Berry. You may as well dump any slots leftover at the end of the day into it, no matter how high that slot is, and druids often have a smattering of them.

It doesn't do anything more when upcast (unless you've got a Life Cleric dip, but even that's a marginal improvement), but is so worthwhile to do anyway, because more free healing tomorrow is just that good.

[Eldariel]

Is that actually correct? I've always thought that you had to cast it at 4th level to get the second damage die. "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above 2nd."

Sure you can cast it with a 3rd level slot. But the damage increases for every two slot levels above 2nd. Using a 3rd level slot is only one slot level above 2nd.

You're correct, I typoed it there.


Also, spells like Shadowblade, Spiritual Weapon, and Cure Wounds aren't as effective when upcast because they all upcast improving their dice, but not the ability mod. 3rd level SB isn't 50% better than 2nd level SB, because 3d8+Dex isn't 50% more than 2d8+Dex (unless our Dex mod is 0)

Well, this is a bit reductionist: Shadow Blade does 2d8+Dex but it has an opportunity cost: you use it instead of a weapon and the weapon you're using it instead of would probably do 1d8+Dex (Rapier is generally the go-to) so the true damage increase of Shadow Blade in most cases is 1d8. You get another 1d8 out of a 3rd level slot and then another out of a 5th.

I agree, Cure Wounds isn't worth upcasting though but that's mostly because it's not even worth casting in the first place.

Not that it matters: you shouldn't compare it to the original spell but other spells of the same level. If the upcast spell is competitive with or better than the competition (like e.g. upcast Shadow Blade often competes well with Tenser's and upcast Spiritual Weapon has little competition) then it upcasts well.

The correct question to ask WRT upcasting isn't "How many times better is this than cast on lower level?" but "How good is this on this level contra on its original level?" It's not the direct scaling that makes spells worth casting, it's the competition.

[LudicSavant]

I think perhaps the percentage should be based off the base-level. If we follow Armor of Agathys' progression (usually considered prime example for upcasting) we have that the spell needs to increase by 1/(n-1)%, where n is the base level.

Lv 1 - n/a
Lv 2 - 100%
Lv 3 - 50%
Lv 4 - 33%
Lv 5 - 25%
Lv 6 - 20%
Lv 7 - 16.67%
Lv 8 - 14.28%
Lv 9 - 12.5%

It's not a steadily decreasing percentage either. For example, there's a huge bump from 8th level direct AoEs to Meteor Swarm, much larger than the bump from 7th to 8th level blasts.


I can see the Fireball argument. I guess thinking about 1st level spells got me in the wrong mindset

Yeah. I recommend discarding the percentage idea entirely, as the progression of spells is not even across levels or roles. You really DO need to get your AoE about twice as good in the bump from 2nd to 3rd level slots or 8th to 9th, but the difference between, say, a 3rd and 4th level blast, or a 7th and 8th, is considerably narrower.

Instead of thinking about the percentage difference, just think about how the upcast spell compares in value to other good spells of its slot level (that your class has access to). Don't worry about how the spell relates to spells of a lower level, worry about how it relates to spells of its current level.

Or in other words, if you wanna know if you should upcast a blast to 9th level, you shouldn't be asking "is this X% better than the 8th level spell, Sunburst?" You should be asking "would I cast this instead of the 9th level spell, Meteor Swarm?"

[JellyPooga]

To add another damage spell to the list, Moonbeam scales very nicely at 1d10/lvl because it's not only +1d10, but it's +1d10 multiplied by an AoE as well as +1d10 multiplied by time. Is a lvl.9 Moonbeam as good as Meteor Swarm in terms of pure damage? No. But it still has a decent potential to inflict a lot of damage. Where Moonbeam is better than it looks is not in the damage it actually does but in the damage it threatens to do. It's high enough to be a genuine threat to a lot of foes and as such can be an effective area denial spell that has the advantage of being laser-focused (unlike many area denial control spells, which tend toward larger, blanket AoE), but you are also able to move it, as the caster, keeping it relevant throughout the course of an encounter (unlike many other effects which can simply be avoided).

Fog Cloud's 20ft/lvl scaling is absolutely a gem. When fighting in a large enough arena and against fast enough opponents, that radius adds up fast and is absolutely worthy of mention. Compare an upcast Fog Cloud to Darkness; 40ft vs. 15ft is an enormous difference. Large enough to encompass the ceiling of large caverns and buildings (banqueting halls, cathedrals, etc.) where a cunning opponent might be able to fly or climb above a smaller AoE. At lvl.3, Fog Cloud has a diameter of 120ft, which is wide enough that even taking a Dash action, most creatures would be unable to cross the AoE in a single turn. As an escape spell, this feature can be invaluable; functional Invisibility for the entire party if all you need to do is be unseen for a round or two.

[RogueJK]

To add another damage spell to the list, Moonbeam scales very nicely at 1d10/lvl because it's not only +1d10, but it's +1d10 multiplied by an AoE as well as +1d10 multiplied by time.

Yep. Call Lightning is similar in those regards: +1d10 per upcast spell level, with an AoE and repeatability. (Especially nice for a Tempest Cleric, as upcasting it gets you a straight +10 to damage per spell level when used alongside your Destructive Wrath Channel Divinity.)

Unlike upcasting a one-off damage spell, when you upcast a persistent spell that does damage like Shadow Blade, Call Lightning, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Moonbeam, etc., it results in that extra damage being added every round. And sometimes multiple times each round, if it has an AoE, or you're using something like Shadow Blade with Extra Attack(s).

[sethdmichaels]

don't discount an upcast Bless

this may seem like a fairly trivial consideration, but in, say, a four-person party it feels like there's value to a 2nd-level Bless just so you don't have to pick who doesn't get it.