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zolfo
2021-04-11, 02:58 PM
so i am DM'ing for a run in red hand of doom for 3 pcs. on of the pcs is a beast, hes a goliath with 4 arms that decimates the goblin ranks. often killing 3 at a minimum in 1 shot. ive been doing a couple things to deal with this in order to make it a challenge and still fun for my pcs. i started with uping the health of the mobs by ALOT. this created super tanky mobs and also had the side effect of making the other 2 pcs useless as they couldn't kill anything alone. so i moved from that to now using greater numbers. instead of fighting 6 gobs in an encounter its now 15. im also today trying by changing out a couple of mobs from the suggested into something a bit stronger, for exaple changing an ettin for a giant of appropriate cr for the pcs levels. anyone got any other suggestions i could use?

Batcathat
2021-04-11, 03:06 PM
This might be kind of stating the obvious (and not the sort of advice you're asking for), but have you considered trying to smooth out the power difference between the PCs somehow? As long as one is so much more powerful than the others, I suspect it will be hard to find things that challenge OP guy without overwhelming the others.

Since I suspect nerfing the power of the beast wouldn't be popular, maybe you can boost the others somehow?

MoiMagnus
2021-04-11, 04:07 PM
I think you correctly identified that ramping up the difficulty will let weaker players frustrated. It doesn't matter how (stronger enemies, more enemies), it's not enough of a solution by itself.

The goal is to ensure everyone around the table has fun. There is multiple ways to achieve that, depending on what kind of gameplay want your players:

(1) The OP PC continues to be OP during the fight, but you sideline fight so that they are secondary, and the huge majority of the session is non-battle gameplay (social encounters, etc) where characters are more balanced with each others. In-universe, you just keep creating encounters as if the OP PC was not OP, and then say "well, you easily defeat the enemies" 70% of the time the PCs are encountering enemies instead of actually playing the encounter.

(2) You give some significant buffs to the non-OP characters, so that they are relevant in combat (or help them to rebuild better characters). Or you significantly nerf the OP character (or ask him to rebuild a character weaker combat-wise, possibly keeping his current character as a NPC for some cameos). Or both.

(3) You carefully plan encounters in advance (lot of workload) so that raw power is not enough to win the encounter, and the non-OP PCs are actually required for the encounter to be winnable.

KineticDiplomat
2021-04-11, 04:24 PM
At the risk of asking the obvious - why did you let him create this PC? I think once you know the answer to that question, you’ll probably know the solution you’re heading toward.

Quertus
2021-04-11, 04:28 PM
Awesome! Go army-destroying PC! Woot woot!

Sounds like "Fighters get nice things", so, bonus!

What are the other 2 PCs? Why aren't they able to hold their own?

Balance to the table (and the module). You shouldn't have to change the module to match the balance of the party.

gijoemike
2021-04-11, 10:43 PM
At this point after several fights the goblins and enemies in general know about the beast. Have the army counter this beast. He kills 3 in a round if the goblins all line up to fuel cleave.

Goliath are big tall bruisers. Have the goblins act like they understand big tall bruiser.

Fight in cramped spaces where the reach and height of the Goliath is a disadvantage.

Use ranged touch attacks like tanglefoot bags, oil, and alchemist fire. It will hold him/her back 1 round. Goblin's like fire. Goblin's would love to see the death machine on fire.

Use smoke to fill up the top portion of a 2.5' tall tunnel. The goblins can run through just fine.

Attack through a murder hole. The Goliath cannot kill me this round if it first must break down this barricade.

Don't make the goblins tougher, play them like they acknowledge a mountain of death is coming and they are doing every dirty trick to slow it down and hurt it.

This is not metagaming. This is an enemy getting slaughtered is trying to counter this issue. They have had time to see what the monster can do. They will not continue to apply the same failed tactics.

zolfo
2021-04-11, 11:26 PM
At the risk of asking the obvious - why did you let him create this PC? I think once you know the answer to that question, you’ll probably know the solution you’re heading toward.

im fairoly new to dming and the player with the op character knows alot of ways to make a pc that is a beast, way more then i do, so the player was able to do it. this player as well as one other is a experienced dm as well. i know i screwed up early in the campaighn by awarding a bit to much xp and now they are all a few levels higher then they should be at this point. im remyding that by cutting down on the xp a little, not enough to stagnate them but enough to slow down thier growth a bit untill i can catch up in the encounter levels. im also chyanging the encounters as needed with different mobs to accomidate for this as well.


At this point after several fights the goblins and enemies in general know about the beast. Have the army counter this beast. He kills 3 in a round if the goblins all line up to fuel cleave.

Goliath are big tall bruisers. Have the goblins act like they understand big tall bruiser.

Fight in cramped spaces where the reach and height of the Goliath is a disadvantage.

Use ranged touch attacks like tanglefoot bags, oil, and alchemist fire. It will hold him/her back 1 round. Goblin's like fire. Goblin's would love to see the death machine on fire.

Use smoke to fill up the top portion of a 2.5' tall tunnel. The goblins can run through just fine.

Attack through a murder hole. The Goliath cannot kill me this round if it first must break down this barricade.

Don't make the goblins tougher, play them like they acknowledge a mountain of death is coming and they are doing every dirty trick to slow it down and hurt it.

This is not metagaming. This is an enemy getting slaughtered is trying to counter this issue. They have had time to see what the monster can do. They will not continue to apply the same failed tactics.

i like this idea thanks. it actually makes alot of sense. if you know about RHOD then the pcs are coming to the Ruins of Rhest and are gonna be in that fight next session. i think im gonna add a few traps and puzzles to the encounter.

zolfo
2021-04-11, 11:31 PM
Awesome! Go army-destroying PC! Woot woot!

Sounds like "Fighters get nice things", so, bonus!

What are the other 2 PCs? Why aren't they able to hold their own?

Balance to the table (and the module). You shouldn't have to change the module to match the balance of the party.

well one of the pcx died today, was eaten by giant crocs, the other "living" pc is a dark elf rogue. it can do alot of sneak attack damage and makes good use of Darkness at the start of most battles. in comparison the goliath does a minimum of i think its 27 dmg on a hit, and rarely rolls under 20 to hit. not sure what its minimum to hit is. so far the best ways to fight it in combat that ive found is ranged attacks and anything spell wise with will saves

Mastikator
2021-04-12, 05:19 AM
Acknowledge the player's ability to make overpowered characters, then explain your problem, then ask him to help you to fix the problem. He probably won't be salty if he gets to decide how his character is nerfed and also understands why it's necessary.

"Dear goliath, you officially win at TTRPG. You have defeated me, the DM and your fellow players as well. As a reward for winning the game you get to decide how we proceed. I can't continue this campaign with your character being so strong, so we need to nerf your character somehow. How would you like to be nerfed?"

You have to nerf him though. The players should be roughly the same power level.

Friv
2021-04-12, 01:04 PM
So, everyone has given a lot of good advice so far, and I'm just going to add some detail questions.

Specifically, what is the build that this player is using, and does it involve a lot of homebrew?

You say in the OP that he's built a four-armed goliath who commonly kills goblins three at a time ("at least", in fact.) I'm guessing that you're playing in 3.5, most likely, since four-armed goliaths are not, to my knowledge, a thing in 5e, and those are the only two editions that I know of that have Red Hand of Doom as a campaign. I'm curious about what sort of a build is allowing this to happen? What did he use to get four arms? Is he killing groups of goblins because they're coming up close to get cleaved? Could you solve this with more archers, which other players would not have much trouble fighting?

Quertus
2021-04-12, 01:11 PM
i know i screwed up early in the campaighn by awarding a bit to much xp and now they are all a few levels higher then they should be at this point.

It's a module. How do you mess up XP?


so far the best ways to fight it in combat that ive found is ranged attacks and anything spell wise with will saves

I'm told RHoD loves to spam will saves. This PC may not be as OP as you believe.

zolfo
2021-04-12, 11:32 PM
So, everyone has given a lot of good advice so far, and I'm just going to add some detail questions.

Specifically, what is the build that this player is using, and does it involve a lot of homebrew?

You say in the OP that he's built a four-armed goliath who commonly kills goblins three at a time ("at least", in fact.) I'm guessing that you're playing in 3.5, most likely, since four-armed goliaths are not, to my knowledge, a thing in 5e, and those are the only two editions that I know of that have Red Hand of Doom as a campaign. I'm curious about what sort of a build is allowing this to happen? What did he use to get four arms? Is he killing groups of goblins because they're coming up close to get cleaved? Could you solve this with more archers, which other players would not have much trouble fighting?

its a fighter and it has 4 arms due to a spell cast on it. although i did learn recently i could potentially use a dispell magic to get rid of its extra arms. so i might do that. im already using dispell magic to combat overuse of darkness. the goliath is also using very large weapons via a feat that have 10-15ft range and allows badass attacks such as whirlwind


It's a module. How do you mess up XP?



I'm told RHoD loves to spam will saves. This PC may not be as OP as you believe.

i gave extra xp in return for me using mobs with large health pools to avoid a one shot on "bosses" as well as adding larger numbers of enemies. currently i am ignoring the added xp and sticking to just the base EL of an encounter. as for the will saves ive been going over the mobs in the module and adding a few extra to an encounter that have will save spells

Willie the Duck
2021-04-13, 07:16 AM
its a fighter and it has 4 arms due to a spell cast on it. although i did learn recently i could potentially use a dispell magic to get rid of its extra arms. so i might do that. im already using dispell magic to combat overuse of darkness. the goliath is also using very large weapons via a feat that have 10-15ft range and allows badass attacks such as whirlwind

Whirlwind Attack requires a full attack action. Could you have the enemies stay back and require them to take more than a 5' step? Also, the extra arms shouldn't remove the normal '1 attack unless 5' step' rules, so I hope you are enforcing that (although I assume for that issue they have something in their build to remedy.

Weasel of Doom
2021-04-13, 07:32 AM
its a fighter and it has 4 arms due to a spell cast on it. although i did learn recently i could potentially use a dispell magic to get rid of its extra arms. so i might do that. im already using dispell magic to combat overuse of darkness. the goliath is also using very large weapons via a feat that have 10-15ft range and allows badass attacks such as whirlwind

That sounds ... interesting. Do you happen to have a copy of his build or character sheet on hand?
Off the top of my head that sounds like the spell Girallon's Blessing with a Permanency which requires a 13th level wizard to cast (and said wizard would have to expend a fair bit of XP). I don't know what style of campaign you're running but that wouldn't fly in most of the groups I've played, there just ain't that many 13th level wizards to go around. It's also questionable whether you can even use the limbs granted by that spell to wield weapons (unless he's using the obsolete 3.0 version).
I leave it open to the big brains of the forum whether there are other more likely routes by which the PC might have managed multiple limbs and oversized weapons.

In any case I'm rather disappointed in the fella - anyone with the system mastery to build a melee character that overshadows the other characters ought to have the gaming experience to know why that's not fun for the other players.
My instinct though, is that he's either relying on some questionable rules interactions or has made an mistake of some kind.

MoiMagnus and Batcathat pretty much laid out your options in the second and third posts.
Either;
~ Sideline combat (difficult in RHoD)
~ Buff the other characters e.g. by rebuilding them a little stronger (can make the players feel less engaged with their characters) or throwing some nice treasure and free feats their way (a reasonable option)
~ Nerf the goliath e.g. by explaining the problem and having him rebuild himself weaker (also reasonable) or just throwing some penalties his way (probably gonna make him whine)
~ Carefully tailor every encounter and challenge such that the goliath and his team mates are all adequately challenged in a way appropriate to their relative strengths and weaknesses (difficult when you're inexperienced)

Reversefigure4
2021-04-14, 12:10 AM
Unfortunately there's a few problems. One of which is too much xp. Each DnD level is a big increase in power. Characters two or three levels higher than the module expects will destroy encounters easily. (The module also assumes 4 characters, so if you only have 3 being one level higher might balance them).

The module also assumes fairly regular characters, straight out of the players handbook, like a basic human fighter. Once you get into letting the players be more powerful races like drow and goliath - and powerful spells like Gorillians Blessing, they're an order more powerful again.

On top of that, it sounds like the players might be taking advantage of your lack of experience to produce strange combinations of feats and weapons that may not be legal. Hard to tell without a lot more specifics.

At this point you're faced with either asking the players to reduce their own power, or significantly changing the module, or going to a much higher level module, or just letting them keep on OPing it.

Saintheart
2021-04-14, 08:35 AM
What's the goliath's AC like? Ranged attacks might not be a complete solution, but a couple of hobgoblin rangers casting True Strike ought to get his attention, especially if they're shooting from an elevated position that he can't get to easily, e.g. up in a tree.

J-H
2021-04-14, 11:00 AM
I think an in-depth review of his character sheet is in order.

Xervous
2021-04-14, 12:20 PM
Gorillon’s blessing on a Goliath would admittedly smash RHoD. The module isn’t exactly a meat grinder. I do recall the master discussion thread pointing out how underwhelming numerous fights are.

KineticDiplomat
2021-04-14, 05:29 PM
One of D&Ds (extraordinarily many) flaws is it tends to allow min-max players to overcome the DM unless the DM (as opposed to the enemy) if they are more experienced. A very strong option for a new GM is to not play D&D, taking away the knowledge disparity and balancing in a system less prone to blatant exploitation and game breaking. How proof it is varies, but the first step to playing an enjoyable game is very often learning to ditch D&D in favor of...well, not ANYTHING...but it’s pretty close.

Assuming you’re stuck with the poor decision to play D&D, the next question is “since you allowed the player to create this PC out of ignorance, what drove him to create it?” The answer to how you handle it is obviously different between “it sounded cool and he didn’t really know” versus “he’s a Man-child who views his PCs fictional battlefield competence as an extension of his own awesomeness in the one area of life he’s not a disaster in”

fof3
2021-04-14, 06:10 PM
Player enjoys playing uber killing machine and is having fun, great. Give other players something else to do - maybe the rogue needs to sneak through the fight to stab the mage before he finishes the ritual, or unlock the door, or dismantle the death machine ...
Spend more time on the non-fight moments, force the min-maxed character into situations where he's min-ed.
And don't give xp for fights until they become challenging.

Or make the goliath even more overpowered until the player realises he's not having fun playing anymore (like teh old smoke all the cigarettes shtick).

Most importantly, are you enjoying playing or not? What about the other PCs? If people are not having fun, switch to "the second squad" who are playing in a different area, new PCs for everyone and a better zeroth session discussion.

False God
2021-04-14, 07:34 PM
I see a lot of suggestions on how to "fix" the situation. But what I want to know is: are your players having fun?

Obviously Mr Smashy is, so what about the other two? Have they complained? Do they show signs of quiet frustration? Or do they seem to be enjoying watching Mr Smashy solve the armies-in-their-face problem?

I understand it can be frustrating to put a lot of work into getting things set up, only for an OP player to dice it up like nothing. But, if everyone is having fun, do your best to keep your workload down, and let your party go to town.

Quertus
2021-04-15, 12:16 PM
I see a lot of suggestions on how to "fix" the situation. But what I want to know is: are your players having fun?

Obviously Mr Smashy is, so what about the other two? Have they complained? Do they show signs of quiet frustration? Or do they seem to be enjoying watching Mr Smashy solve the armies-in-their-face problem?

I understand it can be frustrating to put a lot of work into getting things set up, only for an OP player to dice it up like nothing. But, if everyone is having fun, do your best to keep your workload down, and let your party go to town.

Very much this. Don't put in work trying to fix a "problem" that doesn't exist. If your players are having fun, roll with it!

Batcathat
2021-04-15, 12:38 PM
Very much this. Don't put in work trying to fix a "problem" that doesn't exist. If your players are having fun, roll with it!

While I might once again be stating the obvious, remember to add "and you" to the above sentence. The GM should obviously have fun too.

MrStabby
2021-04-15, 12:52 PM
I think most of the answers so far cover it, but to build on them (although this is largely built on 5th edition experience) I would suggest looking for the asymetries between characters.

If other characters are better at wisdom saves, throw in some enemy clerics with sanctuary type spells (wisdom save to be able to attack that enemy in 5th). If other characters are better at range, strip out the combats that begin close to.

For characters to have the same average number of kills (also not the best metric of either balance or fun, but used as an example) you dont need to have them do the same damage. Change the average number of turns on which each of them get to attack.

Likewise in some circumstances you can equalise by lowering HP rather than raising. Change power coming from damage per attack to number of creatures effected (though that sounds less useful here as I imagine this guy is rocking more attacks than most). 4 attacks per round is great but a clerics destroy undead ability can still clear some rooms faster.

Add resistance and vulnerabilities. Doing one thing great is less effective than being able to adapt to the circumstances.

Anything on this list should be done in moderation though. You just want to adjust things enough to let the other players have fun. Incremental small tweaks to let the others step out of the shadows into the spotlight should be ok.

But importantly, check that this is an issue with the other players before doing anything drastic.

Quertus
2021-04-15, 05:37 PM
While I might once again be stating the obvious, remember to add "and you" to the above sentence. The GM should obviously have fun too.

Well, now, this is tricky. And related to another current thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629852-What-if-it-IS-what-my-character-would-do) in that, "what should one do when one's interests do not match those of the group?".

In a perfect world, I agree with you. But in practice? One person's fun hurting the game for everyone else? That's a tough sell.

My gaming religion holds, I suppose, that the GM, by virtue of their superlative ability to ruin everyone else's fun, is held to higher standards than other players - including higher standards of abnegation.

If the other players are having fun? No, the GM should not risk that fun in pursuit of their own fun. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

Of course, there's a lot of complexity hidden in that stance, like, "it is an unwise GM who does not plan for the own fun", or "it is a selfish GM who is unwilling to compromise *some* of their sources of fun". That is, it's the GM who pitched this as a fun game. If they've succeeded for everyone else, but failed *for themselves*, then it's generally best to take it as a painful learning experience for next time.

Because it's much easier for a GM to tailor a game to what they find fun, and pitch that, than to deal with righteous accusations of their selfishness after ruining what the other players had found to be a fun game.

So, again, in a perfect world, I agree with you. But, in a perfect world, the GM wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

(I could go on with more reasons why this is part of my gaming religion, but let's see where this gets us)

False God
2021-04-15, 07:58 PM
To cut to the chase: A GM who isn't enjoying themselves is unlikely to run a good game. They're likely to be less mentally and emotionally invested in what they're presenting and thus put less time and effort in it.

A GM shouldn't have to suffer in order for others to have fun. It's neither fair nor fun to find out your DM has been secretly hating every moment of the game.

The GM is a player, a player with more responsibility, sure. Though I will caveat that when I DM I put a lot of burden on my players to ensure that we're ALL having fun.

zolfo
2021-04-15, 08:57 PM
Whirlwind Attack requires a full attack action. Could you have the enemies stay back and require them to take more than a 5' step? Also, the extra arms shouldn't remove the normal '1 attack unless 5' step' rules, so I hope you are enforcing that (although I assume for that issue they have something in their build to remedy.

i dont know what you mean by "1 attack unless 5' step" can you elaborate that for me?


What's the goliath's AC like? Ranged attacks might not be a complete solution, but a couple of hobgoblin rangers casting True Strike ought to get his attention, especially if they're shooting from an elevated position that he can't get to easily, e.g. up in a tree.

the goliaths ac is around 23 or 25 depending on rage and a couple other magic things that happen in battle. i have used large amounts of arrows to combat the pc before during a bridge battle. the pc was forced to retreat a couple times due to the number of arrows flying at it.


I see a lot of suggestions on how to "fix" the situation. But what I want to know is: are your players having fun?

Obviously Mr Smashy is, so what about the other two? Have they complained? Do they show signs of quiet frustration? Or do they seem to be enjoying watching Mr Smashy solve the armies-in-their-face problem?

I understand it can be frustrating to put a lot of work into getting things set up, only for an OP player to dice it up like nothing. But, if everyone is having fun, do your best to keep your workload down, and let your party go to town.

in general everyone including myself is having more fun now that ive increased the amount of enemies to fight in an encounter. earlier when i increased mob health there was less fun and more confusion due to some things seaming unkillable. but in general its been better. and as stated in another reply i am also changing some mobs out for stronger CR rating ones that fit thier level. this means i have to customise red hand of doom more for them but it does give a far better challenge and make the fights fun.

---

its also not so much a problem to fix its more im trying to figure out what i can do to make it a challenge for the pc but not overwhelming the other pcs while keeping it fun. but i will absolutely acknowledge my lack of experience dming but i find dming to me more fun for me them playing a pc. and playing with experienced dms is great since they both help me out and give me pointers

Batcathat
2021-04-16, 12:36 AM
If the other players are having fun? No, the GM should not risk that fun in pursuit of their own fun. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.


But why would a GM even run a game if it wasn't fun? It's usually quite a bit of work and if they aren't enjoying it, why would they bother at all?

Pauly
2021-04-16, 03:51 AM
1) Play the Goblins as smart, not cannon fodder. Look up Tucker’s kobolds.

2) Goblin engineering, mining and building is for goblin sized beings. I’ve been down mine working from the 1800s when the average miner was about 165cm and 60 kg (roughly 5’ 6” and 150 lb in American). I”m 182cm and 95kg (6’0” and 210 lbs in American) and roughly 1/3 of the spaces I can move about if I duck my head down, 1/3 I have to squeeze tight and 1/3 I might push my self into if a bear was chasing me. An extra pair of arms adds more bulk and makes fitting into tight spaces even more difficult. Essentially the PC in the OP is like a guy in a Hunvee with extra wide tires trying to drive down a mountain bike teack.

3) Nemesis/I am Legend. The PC has become so feared the goblins bring special sauce just to deal with him.

awa
2021-04-16, 09:37 AM
dont do tuckers kobolds, it might be fun for a dm but it wont be fun for a pc, particularly if they have to deal with it more than once. Its just frustrating.

JNAProductions
2021-04-16, 09:45 AM
dont do tuckers kobolds, it might be fun for a dm but it wont be fun for a pc, particularly if they have to deal with it more than once. Its just frustrating.

Depends on the players. Many players would be frustrated, yeah, but some would take it as a call to get smart.

Know your table, and do what's best for them. I've heard of tables with a half-dozen DMPCs where everyone is having a grand ol' time, which is horribly against any advice I've received and given. Probably wouldn't work for me. But it worked for them, so who cares?

Friv
2021-04-16, 12:00 PM
i dont know what you mean by "1 attack unless 5' step" can you elaborate that for me?
In D&D 3.x, unless you have a special ability that specifically allows for it you can't make multiple attacks if you move more than five feet, regardless of how many attacks you have access to. This means that if you're charging into the middle of a group of people you're usually reliant on Cleave and Great Cleave to hit more than one of them, and if this is a Goliath (LA +1) who's a Barbarian on top of that, he presumably only has so many feats.


the goliaths ac is around 23 or 25 depending on rage and a couple other magic things that happen in battle. i have used large amounts of arrows to combat the pc before during a bridge battle. the pc was forced to retreat a couple times due to the number of arrows flying at it.
I was going to say that this also seems a bit hinky, given that goliaths have a Dexterity penalty, but I guess +1 Full Plate gets you to AC 20, and then if you have four arms you can toss a shield on top of that and still be flailing away with two-handed weapons and maybe have an extra item for bonus AC.

Even so, I definitely feel like there may be some shenanigans in play. They might not be deliberate shenanigans, but it feels a bit like this character has taken the strengths of a few different approaches and none of the weaknesses.


in general everyone including myself is having more fun now that ive increased the amount of enemies to fight in an encounter. earlier when i increased mob health there was less fun and more confusion due to some things seaming unkillable. but in general its been better. and as stated in another reply i am also changing some mobs out for stronger CR rating ones that fit thier level. this means i have to customise red hand of doom more for them but it does give a far better challenge and make the fights fun.

---

its also not so much a problem to fix its more im trying to figure out what i can do to make it a challenge for the pc but not overwhelming the other pcs while keeping it fun. but i will absolutely acknowledge my lack of experience dming but i find dming to me more fun for me them playing a pc. and playing with experienced dms is great since they both help me out and give me pointers

It sounds like you're making good progress on this front! I definitely agree that more enemies is usually more fun than tougher ones, because you can still have a challenge while feeling like sexy shoeless gods of war. A few CR bump-ups, the occasional enemy who prefers to hit and run and toss spells from a distance, and some extra non-combat challenges, and you can still have the goliath be king in his field of "stabbing people in the face" while having ways for the other players to shine. Rogues are good at mobility, traps, and scouting, so give good info that lets the rogue be in position to be close to those ranged enemies early on. Encourage the third player to pick up a spellcaster who can learn useful non-combat spells (unless they've already chosen their new character, obviously.)

Quertus
2021-04-16, 01:37 PM
But why would a GM even run a game if it wasn't fun? It's usually quite a bit of work and if they aren't enjoying it, why would they bother at all?

Commitment. Training. Comradery. Not everyone has to view everything under the lens of "what's in it for me?".

Batcathat
2021-04-16, 01:39 PM
Commitment. Training. Comradery. Not everyone has to view everything under the lens of "what's in it for me?".

I guess. Though that raises the question, why does it matter that the players have fun? Why should they be selfish and want to actually have fun instead of playing for selfless reasons like the GM?

Willie the Duck
2021-04-16, 02:02 PM
I guess. Though that raises the question, why does it matter that the players have fun? Why should they be selfish and want to actually have fun instead of playing for selfless reasons like the GM?

This is a communal entertainment activity. No one person needs to have fun at any given time, but the group as a whole should hopefully be having fun doing this activity overall, and no one person is likely to stick around if they routinely don't have any fun (and 'fun' can be replaced with something like 'satisfaction' or 'sense of accomplishment' where appropriate).

Batcathat
2021-04-16, 02:18 PM
This is a communal entertainment activity. No one person needs to have fun at any given time, but the group as a whole should hopefully be having fun doing this activity overall, and no one person is likely to stick around if they routinely don't have any fun (and 'fun' can be replaced with something like 'satisfaction' or 'sense of accomplishment' where appropriate).

I agree. Not everyone can count on having fun 100 percent of the time but the notion of the GM's fun somehow being less important seemed very odd to me.

False God
2021-04-16, 05:38 PM
I agree. Not everyone can count on having fun 100 percent of the time but the notion of the GM's fun somehow being less important seemed very odd to me.


This is a communal entertainment activity. No one person needs to have fun at any given time, but the group as a whole should hopefully be having fun doing this activity overall, and no one person is likely to stick around if they routinely don't have any fun (and 'fun' can be replaced with something like 'satisfaction' or 'sense of accomplishment' where appropriate).


I guess. Though that raises the question, why does it matter that the players have fun? Why should they be selfish and want to actually have fun instead of playing for selfless reasons like the GM?


Commitment. Training. Comradery. Not everyone has to view everything under the lens of "what's in it for me?".

This is all precisely why we need to stop thinking of the DM as this "other". Their responsibility is the same as the players: to ensure an enjoyable game is had by all. They're running NPCs and setting up the terrain, but that's just the "role" they're "playing" in this game. The players should be equally burdened to enforce the rules properly (especially on themselves), to ensure their actions are not causing active un-fun for the rest of the table (DM included).

The DM is a Player. Their role is different. But many of the burdens the DM undertakes voluntarily ought to be undertaken by everyone else at the table as well. Ensuring table fun should never be a martyr-like activity. If the people you are playing with cannot be bothered to care for the enjoyment of the DM or other players as well, those people are jerks. Self-flagellation for their enjoyment is not a healthy way to go about gaming.

This kinda goes over to that other thread on murderhobos. If one of more of the players are causing a problem, their character's alignment has nothing to do with it, but everything to do with how that player decided it was okay to value their "fun" above all others.

Slipjig
2021-04-16, 06:57 PM
Tucker's Kobolds can be fun, especially if the DM drops some hints early on that wiping out the kobolds through straight combat is unlikely,, and that the PCs should count just surviving as a victory.

zolfo
2021-04-16, 09:19 PM
for the upcoming fight i think im gonna redesign the suggested area from the campaign into something a bit more challenging. adding some traps and murder holes and things like that. i think im also gonna make a part where the pcs get trapped in a room and a flood of goblins come in from one side, think zombies charging a few survivors in a store, maybe some sort of arena. could be a fun event and lets me add as many gobs as i like but not so many as to tpk. giving the players a moment of "oh ****" but a satisfying victory when it ends for all involved

Quertus
2021-04-16, 10:02 PM
This is all precisely why we need to stop thinking of the DM as this "other". Their responsibility is the same as the players: to ensure an enjoyable game is had by all. They're running NPCs and setting up the terrain, but that's just the "role" they're "playing" in this game. The players should be equally burdened to enforce the rules properly (especially on themselves), to ensure their actions are not causing active un-fun for the rest of the table (DM included).

The DM is a Player. Their role is different. But many of the burdens the DM undertakes voluntarily ought to be undertaken by everyone else at the table as well. Ensuring table fun should never be a martyr-like activity. If the people you are playing with cannot be bothered to care for the enjoyment of the DM or other players as well, those people are jerks. Self-flagellation for their enjoyment is not a healthy way to go about gaming.

This kinda goes over to that other thread on murderhobos. If one of more of the players are causing a problem, their character's alignment has nothing to do with it, but everything to do with how that player decided it was okay to value their "fun" above all others.

I agree with you that *all* of the players should care about and do everything in their power to create a game that is fun for all. And, yes, I include "enforcing the rules properly" in that category - in fact, I often talk about how the healthiest groups usually have the players adjudicating the rules as readily as the GM.

So, if I agree this far, why do I hold the GM to higher standards of abnegation?

Well, several reasons.

I've seen far, far too many GMs go the opposite direction. (In part because humans are bad at "fair")

It's too easy for the GM to lose sight of the players' fun.

Many players - even ones who are great at watching out for one another's fun - haven't a clue how to facilitate a GM's fun.

Thus, my gaming religion says that the GM should chalk it up to their own error, and take the satisfaction of a learning experience, rather than ruin everyone else's fun.

FabulousFizban
2021-04-16, 10:10 PM
Employ tactics rather than numbers. Or have the PC fall inti water and drown.

DwarfFighter
2021-04-29, 09:59 AM
OPs decision to add more mobs seems ok to me. The player apparently enjoys playing a character that is killing heaps of enemies. Adding more of them shouldnt screw up things for the other PCs much.

It does sound like the PC in question warrants a review, though.

-DF