#1231 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mystic Muse]

Awesome!:smallbiggrin:

I like all the different little worlds the gods created.

[Windscion]

Infinite Time + Infinite Energy is not the same as Infinite Creativity.

[Peelee]

Infinite Time + Infinite Energy is not the same as Infinite Creativity.

There's also that "infinite" does not mean "all" .

[Yxylu]

I like that Thor’s ringtone for Durkon is MC Hammer.

[MoonCat]

Odin seems to be having a lucid moment.

I like how the deva functions as a ringtone!

[chrnno]

Can't say Thor is not reasonable or Durkon is not trying his best. But the best part is when I got to the reason of the title. Heh still changes minds indeed.

[EmperorSarda]

Too bad that Redcloak, even with Warhammer diplomacy, won't change his mind. He has too much invested in his sinking fallacy to invest in other opinions.

[Synesthesy]

I love Thor more every time he is on a comic.

[Schroeswald]

I must say I enjoy living in the world where my opinions don’t change when I get punched.

[Metastachydium]

Didn't think I'll get to see this: Durkon lying to his god!
(They resolved to just run away at least two rounds before Xykon showed up!)

[wybrand]

Still preferable to the world where you get punched every time you change your opinion

[Reboot]

I'd be interested in a world where someone's solution was to dissolve them.

Also, shouldn't Thor ask about the world in the rift while he has Durkon on the line?

[Roselily2006]

I like how the phrase "Now everyone just gets concussions!" implies that there weren't any concussions before that world.

[GooeyChewie]

There could be some use in having opinions change as the result of hitting somebody in the head. Hate vegetables? Nope, now I love them! So much easier to eat healthy!

The bad certainly would outweigh the good, though.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I like how the phrase "Now everyone just gets concussions!" implies that there weren't any concussions before that world.

Well, if debate essentially boiled down to throwing hands every time you had a disagreement, I think I'd rather not live in a world with that kind of brain injury.

[Roselily2006]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

[Roselily2006]

Well, if debate essentially boiled down to throwing hands every time you had a disagreement, I think I'd rather not live in a world with that kind of brain injury.

True, but I meant that there weren't concussions in any world before that, and the gods added them after that world.

[hroþila]

So what does Commune working this way say about Redcloak and the Dark One.

[Roselily2006]

So what does Commune working this way say about Redcloak and the Dark One.

They mentioned that in "Speaking Terms", and I suppose this supports that.

[Shining Wrath]

I like how Thor believes it is possible for Durkon + Minrah to kill Redcloak. He has faith in those that have faith in him, does Thor.

"Warhammer Diplomacy" is best conducted between the Sisters of Battle and the Chaos Knights.

Will Thor be able to tell Durkon about Serani? That really spoils a rogue's fun when their surprise attack is known in advance and planned for.

[dancrilis]

Assuming the Commune has a 10 minute casting time (which seems likely) then The Order's buffs might be expiring soon if they cast them off panel (although other then possibly Death Ward none that I believe we have seen).

[hamishspence]

Thor is comedy gold as usual.

[hroþila]

They mentioned that in "Speaking Terms", and I suppose this supports that.
Yeah but that was in the context of Durkon telling him he had spoken to Thor in person, and there was still some doubt about how Commune works in the OotS world and whether Vamp Durkon was using Commune to talk with Hel.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like that Thor’s ringtone for Durkon is MC Hammer. Yeah, nice touch. :smallsmile:
I love Thor more every time he is on a comic. Yeah, and various Minrah quotes about Thor being the best god go here {_________________________}

I'm probably overthinking it. Probably.

So what does Commune working this way say about Redcloak and the Dark One. That the communication tends to be one way: poop flows down hill, and all that.

[Mic_128]

I like how Thor believes it is possible for Durkon + Minrah to kill Redcloak.

If it was just two on one, they probably could.

[The Pilgrim]

Warhammer diplomacy for the Win

[danielxcutter]

I'm guessing Thor is making an exception for Durkon from the standard Commune rules, which considering the stakes does make sense. Gods have a bit more wiggle room when it comes to their worshipers anyways, it seems, judging by how Loki could tell Hilgya where Durkula was at all.

Also heh, the last panel made me chuckle.

[Corian]

So what does Commune working this way say about Redcloak and the Dark One.

It says that Thor got a special ringtone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html) for Durkon.

ETA: Also confirming


I'm guessing Thor is making an exception for Durkon from the standard Commune rules

[Elenna]

Thor is hilarious and I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[Blue Dragon]

The Dark One: "Say him to not screw this up."
Thor: "Durkon, my dude!"

Oh, I laughed SO hard at the ringtone, that I think something snapped in my back.

Keep coming!

[Corian]

there was still some doubt about how Commune works in the OotS world and whether Vamp Durkon was using Commune to talk with Hel.

Hmm... I had missed the point on Durkula having had a direct line. I thought for a second it may be a high priest privilege, but that should also apply to Redcloak. So yes, gods are differentially attuned to commune. Or maybe the Dark One just hates nerds, like most bullies :smallbiggrin:

Slightly more serious speculation: The Dark One is keeping apart from other gods, maybe there's something in the way that works that could make commune more difficult?

[danielxcutter]

Is the ringtone a reference? Having it be an angel is still pretty funny though.

[TRH]

Also, shouldn't Thor ask about the world in the rift while he has Durkon on the line?

Durkon doesn't really have much to add beyond that they saw just that, to be fair.

[andreas002]

"Change someone's mind by hitting them" - in Pathfinder (D&D 3.75), there's a feat for that! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/change-of-heart/)

[danielxcutter]

"Change someone's mind by hitting them" - in Pathfinder (D&D 3.75), there's a feat for that! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/change-of-heart/)

*w h e e z e*

[elros]

I like that Thor’s ringtone for Durkon is MC Hammer.
I didn't get the reference! What song is it?

Whenever Odin talks, I don't know if he is rambling or making a profound statement. If you view everything as a nail, you will reach for a hammer, so maybe Odin is saying that they need to look at the situation differently. Or am I looking too much into it?

[KorvinStarmast]

A thought: If the lyrics change to "here comes the hammer" Redcloak may be the one getting a concussion ...

[Zhorn]

Help... MY SIDES! *wheeze*

This one is brilliant.
Top notch humour.
Loving the work as always, Giant.


I didn't get the reference! What song is it?
MC Hammer - U Can't Touch This
"Hammer Time!" is a key lyric


Whenever Odin talks, I don't know if he is rambling or making a profound statement. If you view everything as a nail, you will reach for a hammer, so maybe Odin is saying that they need to look at the situation differently. Or am I looking too much into it?
It's the inversion of "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

[Shining Wrath]

I didn't get the reference! What song is it?

Whenever Odin talks, I don't know if he is rambling or making a profound statement. If you view everything as a nail, you will reach for a hammer, so maybe Odin is saying that they need to look at the situation differently. Or am I looking too much into it?

I'd say that Papa Odin is cautioning his son not to rely on Warhammer Diplomacy, but it could just be a throwaway funny.

[The MunchKING]

Didn't think I'll get to see this: Durkon lying to his god!
(They resolved to just run away at least two rounds before Xykon showed up!)

"Summarizing" not "lying". :smalltongue:


Is the ringtone a reference? Having it be an angel is still pretty funny though.

It's the opening line to M.C. Hammer's "Can't Touch This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo&t=27s)".

[SpykeMH]

I liked the subtle way Thor addresses that Durkon wasn't killed by Redcloak.
"He tried to implode me" "Well you're not giving me this report in person so..."

[nocoolnamejim]

YMMV on your religious beliefs and what not...

But I like the idea of being literally able to call up whatever god you worship and have him answer, "Jim my dude!"

[danielxcutter]

YMMV on your religious beliefs and what not...

But I like the idea of being literally able to call up whatever god you worship and have him answer, "Jim my dude!"

I'm pretty sure Thor is one of the more chill gods and Durkon's mission is a bit more important than the average cleric(plus he's also higher level than average too).

[Skull the Troll]

I'm pretty sure Thor is one of the more chill gods and Durkon's mission is a bit more important than the average cleric(plus he's also higher level than average too).

As far as Thor is concerned he's the most important follower he's ever had in the history of millions of worlds. That's the only reason commune works as well as a cell phone right now.

[danielxcutter]

That's the main reason yes, but Thor really is pretty chill it seems. TDO is... less chill.

[dancrilis]

That's the main reason yes, but Thor really is pretty chill it seems. TDO is... less chill.

I suspect he is less chill but he might be chill enough - we just don't know.

[Toper]

"Change someone's mind by hitting them" - in Pathfinder (D&D 3.75), there's a feat for that! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/change-of-heart/)
I think you used to be able to bonk someone on the head with St. Cuthbert's cudgel to turn them into an enthusiastic worshiper for a day or two, as well...

[nocoolnamejim]

I'm pretty sure Thor is one of the more chill gods and Durkon's mission is a bit more important than the average cleric(plus he's also higher level than average too).

Oh it wasn't really a comment on this specific instance or the comic, more in general. If there is a god, I kind of like the idea of him/her being a casual, chill dude like Thor.

[GregTD]

So, Thor has a special ring tone for Durkon?

Now that is how you know you're special to your God.

[GregTD]

Too bad that Redcloak, even with Warhammer diplomacy, won't change his mind. He has too much invested in his sinking fallacy to invest in other opinions.

That appears to be something that would be true if you were writing the comic

Since you aren't, I think we'll wait and see


True, but I meant that there weren't concussions in any world before that, and the gods added them after that world.

Nope. "Now they just cause concussions." The "just" means that they caused something else, as well as possibly causing concussions.

"I had a diamond and a ruby, now I just have a ruby"

[JeenLeen]

I find Durkon's expression (frown) in the last panel to really add to the humor of Thor's detail about a past world.

Maybe that's Durkon's default expression to a degree, but it seemed really funny in this comic.

[skim172]

I like how the deva functions as a ringtone!

:smallannoyed:: "I feel this is a under-utilization of my talents."

[Ginasius]

Not a bad strip, but I feel a bit... "anticlimaxed"

[Quizatzhaderac]

Based solely on the pose, I'm imaging the archon is doing an operatic rendition of "can't touch this".

I'm also going to imagine the Elan is doing the M.C. hammer shuffle right about now.

On a more serious note, I'm speculating that maybe Xykon will figure things out (Redcloak's betrayal) first, and then Redcloak will only come along to Thor's plan once The Plan™ is no longer viable.

[Anitar]

So... Can Durkon even hear Odin chiming in? He doesn't seem to respond, and I don't think it would fit with the intended effect of the Commune spell, but...

[DaOldeWolf]

I loved the Warhammer 40k reference. :smallbiggrin:

[CountDVB]

A very wonderful and hilarious strip that does the questions on what one does do when you have to negotiate with a side who doesn't want to help because the first step would be acknowledge they have made a mistake.

Though Lord Odin makes a good point. While it is a play off the old adage of all problems looking like nails when you have a hammer, Odin's phrasing actually still makes sense. Sometimes when you have a pretty simple problem, alot of solutions seem to boil down to accomplishing basically the same thing.

[Psyren]

I hope Thor has better advice than "Okay I trust you, good luck with the combat! Hopefully I don't see you soon!"


:smallannoyed:: "I feel this is a under-utilization of my talents."

"I'll inform our stenographer" :smallbiggrin:



Nope. "Now they just cause concussions." The "just" means that they caused something else, as well as possibly causing concussions.

"I had a diamond and a ruby, now I just have a ruby"

This is how I read that as well, though certainly I'd prefer the former reading (people can change my mind by hitting me but concussions don't exist) were I actually living in such a world.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I loved the Warhammer 40k reference. :smallbiggrin:That's probably a reference to gunboat diplomacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy), substituting in Durkon's actual weapon.

Also, if it was a table top reference, it would presumably be to Warhammer fantasy.

[Grey Watcher]

That appears to be something that would be true if you were writing the comic

Since you aren't, I think we'll wait and see


R
Nope. "Now they just cause concussions." The "just" means that they caused something else, as well as possibly causing concussions.

"I had a diamond and a ruby, now I just have a ruby"

But you could also say "I used to have a diamond, now I just have a ruby." Which highlights that the ruby is less valuable, not necessarily that you had the ruby before. To use another example, "I used to fly first class, now I just fly coach."

[Finagle]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

[gatemansgc]

Odin seems to be having a lucid moment.

I like how the deva functions as a ringtone!

the deva part made me giggle, it was cute!

[arimareiji]

I must say I enjoy living in the world where my opinions don’t change when I get punched.
I wonder if this is a send-up of the dramatic trope (painfully common in shounen-jump manga and anime) where they refuse to discuss their differences (except to "talk with their fists"), and the loser realizes the winner was right.

[Shining Wrath]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

It's Roy's current plan. I think Durkon and Thor are moving toward a different plan in the penultimate panel. "... but you cannae truly change someone's mind by hittin' 'em." "Yeah, that's true." For how long will Redcloak's cooperation be needed? And what assurance would he have that he wouldn't be killed after contacting TDO?

[bguy]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?


On the other hand Redcloak probably would be more open to Durkon's proposals once Xykon is destroyed since not only would Redcloak believe his leverage was greatly reduced in such a scenario, but their being willing to negotiate with him even when the Plan is in ruins would show Redcloak that Durkon (and Thor) are being sincere about wanting peace with the goblins and aren't just negotiating with him out of fear of the Plan succeeding.

[arimareiji]

It's Roy's current plan. I think Durkon and Thor are moving toward a different plan in the penultimate panel. "... but you cannae truly change someone's mind by hittin' 'em." "Yeah, that's true." For how long will Redcloak's cooperation be needed? And what assurance would he have that he wouldn't be killed after contacting TDO?
Good points.

I would think they have to keep Redcloak alive for trips around the world to visit the other rifts and seal them, but 1) that's just my take and 2) Redcloak probably wouldn't believe that until he saw it.

Personal head-canon: This actually goes a long way toward guaranteeing the PC races can't immediately return to treating goblinoids as XP fodder and/or "clear them out" every time they try for something better than a hardscrabble existence in a wasteland. The world is still made of three colors, so rifts will probably keep opening periodically for millennia to come (and need to be "spot-welded" with the help of a sufficiently-high priest of TDO).

[Rinazina]

Not a bad strip, but I feel a bit... "anticlimaxed"

I might share the same feeling, but might also be the perfect setup for a Serini-Order-Xykon-Thor parallel happenings :P

Eventually Thor might stretch commune for a bit more time, for the sake of plot?
Also I would expect he'll ask a confirmative statement 'bout planet in the rift.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Ye cannae truly change someone's mind by hittin' 'em.
Actually there are specific cases where that's not true. (https://existentialcomics.com/comic/143)

Philosophical ideas that can be refuted by punching:
1. Moral Nihilism
2. Moral Relativism
3. Scepticism about the outside world
4. Scepticism about causation
5. Denial of qualia
6. That violence never accomplishes anything

[Thecommander236]

Yeah... If it was possible to get people to join you if you hit them on the head, a lot of the most violent people would be kings. All the most unreasonable people would turn everyone else unreasonable... unless you could hit them hard enough on the head.

[arimareiji]

Yeah... If it was possible to get people to join you if you hit them on the head, a lot of the most violent people would be kings. All the most unreasonable people would turn everyone else unreasonable... unless you could hit them hard enough on the head.

Which has definitely never happened in the real world. (^_~)

[Deathhappens]

Too bad that Redcloak, even with Warhammer diplomacy, won't change his mind. He has too much invested in his sinking fallacy to invest in other opinions.

Who knows? Maybe they just haven't used enough warhammer diplomacy. :smallbiggrin:

(To clarify, I don't believe that IS the direction the comic is goint to take... but that it COULD have been a direction the comic could take.)

[KorvinStarmast]

So, Thor has a special ring tone for Durkon?

Now that is how you know you're special to your God.


Actually there are specific cases where that's not true. (https://existentialcomics.com/comic/143) That made me chuckle.

[Deathhappens]

I like how Thor believes it is possible for Durkon + Minrah to kill Redcloak. He has faith in those that have faith in him, does Thor.

"Warhammer Diplomacy" is best conducted between the Sisters of Battle and the Chaos Knights.

Will Thor be able to tell Durkon about Serani? That really spoils a rogue's fun when their surprise attack is known in advance and planned for.

I mean, purely from a game perspective, it SHOULD be possible, and even advantageous, for those two to fight and kill Redcloak if we assume Xykon and the MitD are out of the picture. He's higher-level that Durkon, but not so much as to completely outclass him, and the action economy heavily favors the 2 versus one. On a completely non-exhaustive, not-particularly optimised list of things they could do, Durkon could counterspell anything Redcloak attempts to cast while Minrah puts her racial bonuses (and previous fighter levels) to work bashing his unbuffed noggin in with her hammer.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Something about "Durkon, my dude!" cracks me up. Gotta love Thor!

[Psychronia]

I wonder if it was an anime-esque world?

Thor understands warhammer diplomacy as expected. Still unfortunate, but Redcloak might face the music better once the biggest undead sunk cost is taken care of.

....I don't suppose Jirix would have the level of power needed to cast that spell, would he?

[understatement]

I wonder if it was an anime-esque world?

Thor understands warhammer diplomacy as expected. Still unfortunate, but Redcloak might face the music better once the biggest undead sunk cost is taken care of.

....I don't suppose Jirix would have the level of power needed to cast that spell, would he?

He decidedly does not, and it would be a pretty large cop-out if he did.

[Shining Wrath]

He decidedly does not, and it would be a pretty large cop-out if he did.

To be fair, he's been off-camera for a while, doing ruler stuff. Might have leveled up.
Also, recall that Crystal, as Haley's nemesis, leveled up whenever she did, for free (back when the comic was more cheap-D&D-joke oriented). Jirix could, arguably, level up whenever the plot requires it just because.

[Riftwolf]

Just a quick note: in the last three comics, the point of views jumped three times (from Serini, to the Order, to Thor).


To be fair, he's been off-camera for a while, doing ruler stuff. Might have leveled up.
Also, recall that Crystal, as Haley's nemesis, leveled up whenever she did, for free (back when the comic was more cheap-D&D-joke oriented). Jirix could, arguably, level up whenever the plot requires it just because.

(sarcasm) that's why Jirix stomped the demon roach: to become the person nemesis of roaches who are currently running through epic dungeons! (/sarcasm)

[gatemansgc]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

when you phrase it like that it sounds worse D:

[Ruck]

Go Hammer, MC Hammer, Warhammer, Thor's Hammer!

[Shining Wrath]

Go Hammer, MC Hammer, Warhammer, Thor's Hammer!

So ... it's Hammer Time?
I also recall Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em. Maybe foreshadowing?

[CountDVB]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

This is the same Redcloak who hasn't ever spoken with his god much if at all and does everything he can to avoid confronting his mistakes. He may sabotage the last Gate out of spite if something happens to him.

Of course, there's not too many options I can think of. Redcloak's too dug into his heels and we have no idea what the other forces, like the IFCC, have planned.

[Mike Havran]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?That would not be even sufficient. They need Redcloak to cast a 9th level spell equivalent at the gate... I can imagine quite well what kind of spell would Redcloak cast if being forced to do something against his will :smallwink:

[understatement]

(sarcasm) that's why Jirix stomped the demon roach: to become the person nemesis of roaches who are currently running through epic dungeons! (/sarcasm)

You're wrong. Jirix will arrive on the back of the young black dragon's green dragon girlfriend as the last Gate unravels, wielding the IFCC's chalice in one hand and Roy's properly-sized boot in the other.

[arimareiji]

Go Hammer, MC Hammer, Warhammer, Thor's Hammer!
XD

The only thing that saved me from spending the next twenty minutes trying to come up with a followup filk line, is knowing that I can't come up with one worthy of that. (^_~)

[hungrycrow]

Hammer diplomacy is sort of the worst plan, except for all the others. If they succeed, they're not in a very good position to convince Redcloak or TDO to cooperate, but at least they have time to figure out new options. If Redcloak reaches the gate however, a lot of irreversible bad things would happen. They have to stop that no matter what, and beating an epic lich in an ambush is still slightly more likely to work out than trying to reason with a guy willing to resort to omnicide.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Go Hammer, MC Hammer, Warhammer, Thor's Hammer!Two more:

If I had a hammer... (https://web.archive.org/web/20050407084710/http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/hammer-song.shtml)

Master, sir, did you just see my MAD SKILLZ!? (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/HaWbzPEE11dKK5T6HghDMUbe0wouDndnbo-MA8XdvAM4Pr3UIrDOsXpWRwQvWZq13jQ7QdQ2dZt1wtMrP2IPC buOYrKujoxoweYTz2FXT7gslH2_f0-c4IV1s9wbkSV-dfwvk8HfSfE_FDUu)

[durron597]

I would like to understand why Commune seems way more powerful than the standard rules. We know that spells have to be restricted to their defined uses or else they break the domain agreement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html). We also know that if gods break the rules, that every other god will notice. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html)

I wonder if it's because Durkon hasn't yet asked a question? The information has mostly been one sided, Durkon to Thor. The rules do not say anything about how long or complicated the question is, just about how short the answers are.

[InvisibleBison]

I would like to understand why Commune seems way more powerful than the standard rules. We know that spells have to be restricted to their defined uses or else they break the domain agreement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html). We also know that if gods break the rules, that every other god will notice. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html)

I wonder if it's because Durkon hasn't yet asked a question? The information has mostly been one sided, Durkon to Thor. The rules do not say anything about how long or complicated the question is, just about how short the answers are.

In the Geekery thread, it was proposed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25004045&postcount=361) that what we're seeing here might not be commune at all, but rather the remote sensing and remote communication divine powers.

[Ruck]

So ... it's Hammer Time?
I also recall Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em. Maybe foreshadowing?


XD

The only thing that saved me from spending the next twenty minutes trying to come up with a followup filk line, is knowing that I can't come up with one worthy of that. (^_~)

I just noticed that there were a lot of different hammers mentioned in this strip, as well as the song in question, and then it just wrote itself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Not a bad strip, but I feel a bit... "anticlimaxed"

Anything that's not the climax would have to be, at least a little.

[Robots]

Hey, I'm early!

Because I had been checking quite a bit to see if there was an update (by typing in the URL of the next comic just in case my browser wasn't registering an update, this has happened more than once), the website already thought I had checked it out, lol.

[scopperil]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

You're thinking of acu-puncher.

[Taevyr]

Concerning hitting people on the head until they agree: "If violence wasn't your last resort, you didn't resort to enough of it" :smalltongue:

[Ochotona]

This depiction of how Commune works, plus Redcloak's admission he's never seen or talked to TDO makes me even more suspicious of whether TDO actually exists, versus Redcloak getting conned by some other god (probably Loki).

[TheNecrocomicon]

That would not be even sufficient. They need Redcloak to cast a 9th level spell equivalent at the gate... I can imagine quite well what kind of spell would Redcloak cast if being forced to do something against his will :smallwink:

Let me guess ... Implosion? Just maybe? :smalltongue:

So what this means is that the Order need to goad Redcloak into casting Implosion on someone or something that can survive it and absorb the magical potential of the spell, then dump said magical power into whatever ritual is used to seal the rifts and/or the Snarl's improved prison.

5e has the Rod of Absorption that could arguably do that, does 3.5e have any equivalent?


This depiction of how Commune works, plus Redcloak's admission he's never seen or talked to TDO makes me even more suspicious of whether TDO actually exists, versus Redcloak getting conned by some other god (probably Loki).

We have seen other deities openly admit to the Dark One's existence, including ones who are antagonistic to him, and enough of the godly pantheons have had interactions with the Dark One over the centuries/millennia that there's a lot more evidence in favour of the Dark One existing than against the same.

[The MunchKING]

Let me guess ... Implosion? Just maybe? :smalltongue:

So what this means is that the Order need to goad Redcloak into casting Implosion on someone or something that can survive it and absorb the magical potential of the spell, then dump said magical power into whatever ritual is used to seal the rifts and/or the Snarl's improved prison.

It's not that they need him to cast a 9th level spell, they need him to put the equivalent power of a 9th level spell into a specific ritual to strengthen the Gates.

[Ochotona]

We have seen other deities openly admit to the Dark One's existence, including ones who are antagonistic to him, and enough of the godly pantheons have had interactions with the Dark One over the centuries/millennia that there's a lot more evidence in favour of the Dark One existing than against the same.

Per strip #1142 and #1143, virtually everything we know about TDO's relationship with other deities comes from Thor, and Thor's knowledge mostly comes from Loki--the literal god of lies and deceit. Those strips explicitly mention that many other gods are skeptical of TDO's existence. And in Thor's image of him confronting TDO, Loki plus Rat and Tiamat are present for some unexplained reason--jointly maintaining an illusion, perhaps?

Its getting awfully fishy that neither we the readers nor any character are getting firsthand scenes with TDO, just flashbacks and references. I smell a twist.

[mjasghar]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

Sounds like Terry Pratchett’s idea of retro phrenology

[Falcon X]

"When all you have is a nail," would have been beautiful if he said Nale.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well! Good to know that the gods know? Still looking forward to how persuading redcloak turns out..

[CountDVB]

Per strip #1142 and #1143, virtually everything we know about TDO's relationship with other deities comes from Thor, and Thor's knowledge mostly comes from Loki--the literal god of lies and deceit. Those strips explicitly mention that many other gods are skeptical of TDO's existence. And in Thor's image of him confronting TDO, Loki plus Rat and Tiamat are present for some unexplained reason--jointly maintaining an illusion, perhaps?

Its getting awfully fishy that neither we the readers nor any character are getting firsthand scenes with TDO, just flashbacks and references. I smell a twist.

Except for Jirix having met The Dark One and Thor himself about to fight The Dark One before Loki talked him down as we saw .

[Ochotona]

Except for Jirix having met The Dark One and Thor himself about to fight The Dark One before Loki talked him down as we saw .

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?
(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)

The story told in 1143 is very, vey suspicious to my eye, and getting moreso as the story progresses.

[understatement]

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?

It's an illustration because Thor is doing some mini-illusion to show Durkon and Minrah what actually happened. It's as directly shown as you can get. Loki was there to stop Thor from killing the Dark One.


(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)


Indeed, it's irrelevant. The color of the quiddity is merely a byproduct of their divine power. Gods can't create other gods, and certainly not ones of different quiddities, else they would have done it long ago to seal up the rifts permanently.

[hungrycrow]

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is a legit point in favor of TDO existing, but even that is weirdly indirect.

The Thor attack on the TDO in 1143 isn't shown directly, it's just Thor's illustration; and as I noted above the presence of Rat and Tiamat at the confrontation is unexplained and suspicious. Why are they there? How would they even know that Thor was planning an attack, and why isn't their presence commented on?
(Also suspicious but perhaps irrelevant: purple just happens to be the color you'd get from blending Rat's blue and Tiamat's red quiddities.)

The story told in 1143 is very, vey suspicious to my eye, and getting moreso as the story progresses.

If Loki & co were able to fake a deity well enough to fool the other gods for thousands of years, and create a whole religion and an afterlife and supply all those fake clerics with spells, why would they have trouble communing with Redcloak?

I definitely agree that Loki lied about his interaction with TDO. Possibly notable is that between them they have a representative of each quiddity.

[Ochotona]

If Loki & co were able to fake a deity well enough to fool the other gods for thousands of years

From the information we're given in #1143, the amount of contact between TDO and the rest of the gods is actually very limited. After Thor's initial attack--in which, as far as we're shown in Thor's illustrations, he's never alone against TDO--Loki is the sole point of contact for the northern pantheon, and claims to have all contact cut off. Tiamat's the only point of contact for the western pantheon. We're not told whether any of the southern pantheon has met TDO, but we are told that Rat is discouraging negotiations. All pretty consistent with hinkiness from Loki+Tiamat+Rat.


why would they have trouble communing with Redcloak?

This is a fair point, but I think it's plausible that it'd be hard for Loki et al. to successfully maintain a illusion of a deity, especially against their own high-level cleric. Hence a decision to duck all contact, as they've been doing with the other gods.

[Windscion]

Saying that Loki is lying about his contacts with TDO suggests that Loki, Rat, Tiamat and TDO are conspiring together. And hence implying that Loki's actions thwarting Hel are because they need more time? Still, if this secret cabal is responsible, via 4-quiddity efforts, for the planet in the rifts, there must be more to it than getting away with it. Maybe the fact that they designed it w/o interference from the gods of good and neutrality? It seems like it could possibly shield the pantheons from the snarl's rampages, meaning that TDO (and Hel!) will readily survive the transition.

Against this idea, the rift's reaction when Vector Legion's psion (Laurin) probed it.

So maybe the plan was for RC to provoke the destruction of this world, somehow forcing the pantheons to use the already-installed planet in the rifts? Because w/o the cooperation of Purple Quiddity, they maybe cannot destroy it? If that were the case, RC has cause to be really, really pissed at his patron!

Yeah, that's unlikely, but speculation can be fun. And it might explain why TDO hasn't been more chatty with his high priest.

(If you mean TDO doesn't exist, and is a ploy by Loki, Rat, and Tiamat, their game makes no sense at all and doesn't even explain anything. Especially that fact that Thor specifically confronted TDO, by his own testimony.)

[Ochotona]

(If you mean TDO doesn't exist, and is a ploy by Loki, Rat, and Tiamat, their game makes no sense at all and doesn't even explain anything. Especially that fact that Thor specifically confronted TDO, by his own testimony.)

Dunno, tricking goblinkind into securing a gate for you, without the other gods realizing you're behind the scheme and moving to stop you, seems like the sort of thing Loki would have both an interest in and aptitude for.

I do agree that the plausibility of this theory turns on Loki/Tiamat/Rat being able to deceive Thor with illusions during his attempted attack. But we haven't really gotten any information from the strips about whether that sort of god-vs-god successful illusions are possible/plausible.

[Feruk]

Dunno, tricking goblinkind into securing a gate for you, without the other gods realizing you're behind the scheme and moving to stop you, seems like the sort of thing Loki would have both an interest in and aptitude for.


If the three of them are conspiring, then what is their goal? Why hasn't Loki said 'Nah, risks are too much', rather than 'Lets take a chance to solve this problem forever' (when the latter could not work because no TDO)? What, exactly, do these three gain by continuing to be playing this game when they all know that the ritual is far too long for the gods to allow it to finish (without the foreknowledge that they'd get locked in a godsmoot, as this was before the vote - I'm talking about the stance immediately before the vote).

It's a nice hypothesis, but I don't feel like it's got a tangible endpoint for Loki et al. that's consistent with their actions.

[Mariele]

You're wrong. Jirix will arrive on the back of the young black dragon's green dragon girlfriend as the last Gate unravels, wielding the IFCC's chalice in one hand and Roy's properly-sized boot in the other.
That can't be right, I don't see how Redclock's niece fits into this at all.


If I had a hammer... (https://web.archive.org/web/20050407084710/http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/hammer-song.shtml)
I have been listening to The Weavers a lot lately, and now this is stuck in my head again. :smallfrown:

[Corian]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?

Actually, the threat to Redcloak is more serious than that: we'll kill you and rip up your deity's artifact, so their plan is foiled. (I doubt anybody can learn the divine casting without the cloak, and I'll assume creating artifacts is not something a god does every day.) I'm not saying it's a way to get goodwill, but it is a threat that Redcloak would take much more seriously than death.

ETA: If that does not count as "screwing up", I don't know what does. So the meeting would not go proudly.

[Ochotona]

If the three of them are conspiring, then what is their goal?

A high-level goal of "control a gate and dominate the other gods" seems perfectly in keeping with what we know of Loki, Rat, and Tiamat's character.


Why hasn't Loki said 'Nah, risks are too much', rather than 'Lets take a chance to solve this problem forever' (when the latter could not work because no TDO)?

If TDO is actually a long con by Loki et al., of course he's going to urge the other gods to keep trying to negotiate, rather than blow up the world (and along with it his current scheme.) Loki 100% has been established as a character who would violate the god's rules about the snarl and gamble with the world's souls if he thought he stood to personally gain.


What, exactly, do these three gain by continuing to be playing this game when they all know that the ritual is far too long for the gods to allow it to finish (without the foreknowledge that they'd get locked in a godsmoot, as this was before the vote - I'm talking about the stance immediately before the vote).

What they planned to do to stop the gods from remaking the world long enough for Redcloak to get the ritual off is a good question that I don't have a solid theory for. Seems like a surmountable problem though--and it may end up being that Loki was manipulating the Hel-Godsmoot events to create the sort of deadlock that would let their TDO-Redcloak plan proceed.

[danielxcutter]

So how much of this is idle I-don’t-really-expect-this-to-be-right speculation and how much is “I hate Redcloak so I want to drop a bridge on him”?

[AstralFire]

We're too late in the story to have such a late- revealed, fundamental fact (that gods can't do anything quiddity-wise outside their own color) prove to be false.

[Ochotona]

So how much of this is idle I-don’t-really-expect-this-to-be-right speculation and how much is “I hate Redcloak so I want to drop a bridge on him”?

If you're talking to me, I know "TDO is a con by Loki et al" would be a big twist, but it fits well with both the information we've been given and resolves a bunch of meta-textual issues (explains why Loki is getting so much strip time and ties him in to the main plot, explains why Hilgya was reintroduced when she wasn't that necessary from a plot or characterization standpoint, provides a dramatically satisfying comeuppance for Redcloak).

I like Redcloak as a character a lot; he's perhaps one of the most interesting in the entire strip. But any resolution that involves him changing his mind imo would be very inconsistent with his prior behavior and not very satisfying. On the other hand, a resolution in which Redcloak, having made so many sacrifices, finally overcomes Xykon and the Order, only to learn he's been duped the entire time? Juicy, and in Burlew's style for villain climaxes.

[danielxcutter]

I... what? How does that make a good story when at least half the buildup so far would be completely for nothing?

[Ochotona]

I... what? How does that make a good story when at least half the buildup so far would be completely for nothing?

I don't see how that would make any of the buildup "for nothing". The nature of the snarl and gates still matters, Xykon plan still matters, the Order's efforts to stop Xykon/ the world from being remade still matter, quiddity still matters (although it'd mean the fourth quiddity wouldn't be coming from TDO), the IFCC's plots re V still matter, etc.

The only plot threads it really upends are Redcloak's and Loki/Thor/Hel's, and it does so in an interesting, dramatic way that's consistent with the hints we've been given and the characterization of Redcloak and Loki.

[Patterned_Pike]

That can't be right, I don't see how Redclock's niece fits into this at all.


Her hiding idea was to get polymorphed into a green dragon.

[danielxcutter]

I don't see how that would make any of the buildup "for nothing". The nature of the snarl and gates still matters, Xykon plan still matters, the Order's efforts to stop Xykon/ the world from being remade still matter, quiddity still matters (although it'd mean the fourth quiddity wouldn't be coming from TDO), the IFCC's plots re V still matter, etc.

The only plot threads it really upends are Redcloak's and Loki/Thor/Hel's, and it does so in an interesting, dramatic way that's consistent with the hints we've been given and the characterization of Redcloak and Loki.

The gods have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure this out. The purple quiddity being a mix of Rat's and Tiamat's makes no sense because the reason TDO's quiddity is so valuable is because the current pantheons only have three and the Snarl has four. Like seriously, this is Order of the Stick, not Loki And Co. Con The Multiverse.

[Ochotona]

The gods have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure this out. The purple quiddity being a mix of Rat's and Tiamat's makes no sense because the reason TDO's quiddity is so valuable is because the current pantheons only have three and the Snarl has four. Like seriously, this is Order of the Stick, not Loki And Co. Con The Multiverse.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Loki/Rat/Tiamat created a genuine purple quiddity; I'm saying they might have created an illusion of a purple-quiddity god as part of an effort to con the rest of the pantheon.

[BriarHobbit]

I wonder if you could bypass the need for Redcloak with a 9th level spell that he loaded into a scroll and had a more reasonable priest cast the spell. I don't know how hard it would be for a high level rogue to use such a theoretical scroll.

Moving to the current comic, I expect that Durkon cast the commune spell for better reasons than to provide an update. It's not surprising that Thor would OK with war hammer diplomacy. If the Order captured Red Cloak and defeated Xykon, I have trouble seeing Red Cloak cooperating because he wouldn't believe the Order of the Stick. This comic seems like an intro to something more. I can see Durkon having to hang up suddenly because of an attack by an invisible halfling rogue.

[danielxcutter]

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Loki/Rat/Tiamat created a genuine purple quiddity; I'm saying they might have created an illusion of a purple-quiddity god as part of an effort to con the rest of the pantheon.

That's even worse because it negates the entire Redcloak plotline.

Also have you read Start of Darkness and Good Deeds Gone Unpunished(specifically the How the Paladin Got His Scar story), or at least know what happens? The goblinoid problem is probably more important than you think.

[understatement]

That can't be right, I don't see how Redclock's niece fits into this at all.


She comes in with proper ink tools for half-Celestial tattoos, a one-page picture of Aunt Ivy, and has also Polymorphed into Serini's green half.


Like seriously, this is Order of the Stick, not Loki And Co. Con The Multiverse.

To be saved for the actual Loki show.


To be clear, I'm not suggesting Loki/Rat/Tiamat created a genuine purple quiddity; I'm saying they might have created an illusion of a purple-quiddity god as part of an effort to con the rest of the pantheon.

Sometimes I wish the Dark One could be any quiddity color besides purple, since these illusion theories would probably pop if he was neon-pink.

How would the illusion be able to con the entire Northern and Southern Pantheon (and why haven't these Evil Gods done it before?) and take up an entire plane of Acheron for the goblin afterlife?

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if you could bypass the need for Redcloak with a 9th level spell that he loaded into a scroll and had a more reasonable priest cast the spell. I don't know how hard it would be for a high level rogue to use such a theoretical scroll.

You can't, the Giant clarified that Thor's plan requires Redcloak taking part in a specific Ritual to contribute a 9th-level worth of divine energy to Thor's archspell. Any random 9th-level spell will not do.

[Johndoe_142857]

Funny page as ever.

However, I hope Durkon will report to Thor the demands of the goblinoids, as in: make them equal to PC races.

[arimareiji]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

You're thinking of acu-puncher.
Ow. That's almost felony-level assault and punnery. (^_~)b

[faustin]

Funny page as ever.

However, I hope Durkon will report to Thor the demands of the goblinoids, as in: make them equal to PC races.

I don't think Thor can change the rules of the world to help goblinoids more than he could to save his niece.

[Quartz]

This depiction of how Commune works, plus Redcloak's admission he's never seen or talked to TDO makes me even more suspicious of whether TDO actually exists, versus Redcloak getting conned by some other god (probably Loki).

Jirix has seen and talked to TDO and he relayed that to Redcloak. Perhaps Redcloak is too conceited to cast Commune?

[MoiMagnus]

That's even worse because it negates the entire Redcloak plotline.

Also have you read Start of Darkness and Good Deeds Gone Unpunished(specifically the How the Paladin Got His Scar story), or at least know what happens? The goblinoid problem is probably more important than you think.

I've not read all of them, but from a narrative point of view, wouldn't the goblinoid problem be solved through disinterested acknowledgment of the problem and the unfairness of the situation, rather than by an interested acknowledgement of the problem (the only reason why the goblins get anything is because they can save the world) also be a strong conclusion to the story?

[hroþila]

Kill Xykon and then beat Redcloak to within an inch of his life so he'll change his mind?

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. Redcloak would proudly go meet the Dark One personally rather than do what some Thor worshipper said.

"You're out of healing spells and potions and down to your last 3HP. Now do as we say and contact your god and tell him to cooperate with Thor!"

That's the plan?
I think it's more about defeating Team Evil, removing Redcloak's leverage, and then offering good terms as proof that they were being honest all along and that they want to negotiate in good faith. Redcloak himself said the talk was only taking place because he was winning, and that he had no reason to make a deal when he was (in his estimation) so close to victory. Defeat him, make the victory he envisioned impossible, and he has much less of a reason to turn the offer down.

It might not work. I'm pretty sure it won't be this simple in the comic itself. But on paper, that does look like the best strategy to me.

[Shining Wrath]

If I were going to pick the 3 deities least likely to form a successful, centuries-long conspiracy and hold it together, it would be Loki, Tiamat, and Rat.
Chaotic Evil cannot trust other Chaotic Evil. The whole point of Chaotic Evil is that you don't value anything except your own good. If at any point over centuries there was short or medium-term gain for [X] from betraying [Y and Z], the betrayal happens immediately (that is, immediately from the perspective of a deity who makes centuries-long plans, so maybe in a decade or so). The gains from the scheme succeeding, versus the odds that it won't succeed at all (there's many obstacles, not the least of which is needing a high level goblinoid cleric), versus the sort-of Prisoner's Dilemma of knowing that your co-conspirators absolutely cannot be trusted at all - nope. This thing does not hold together.

I find the odds of 3 CE deities cooperating and managing to fool dozens of other deities who know exactly who they are dealing, for centuries, to be zero. YMMV, but I'm going to say it goes against everything we know about D&D alignment (which, admittedly, is a philosophical mess).

Also against the "TDO is a fake" thesis: Redcloak gets his spells by communicating with his god, in some fashion. Who is granting his spells? Because if it's Loki, Rat, or Tiamat, aren't they going against the "don't mess with the territory of other pantheons" rule? The Southern Pantheon might have some opinions about Rat participating in a conspiracy that destroys Azure City. The risks just went way up for Rat.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I find the odds of 3 CE deities cooperating and managing to fool dozens of other deities who know exactly who they are dealing, for centuries, to be zero. YMMV, but I'm going to say it goes against everything we know about D&D alignment (which, admittedly, is a philosophical mess).

This. It would completely fly in the face of the running sub-theme that OotS has established that "Evil is not some big happy family".

That, and we have the IFCC trio running a pretty clear long-prepared evil conspiracy, and having two of those would be dramatically redundant.

Obviously the direct contact with The Dark One has been deliberately limited in the story in order to breed mystery and speculation about him just like this, in advance of probably having a more clear reveal about his motivations, likely to be whenever Redcloak's warped machinations finally come to a head.

[danielxcutter]

Nitpick: we have no info on where Tiamat and Rat are on the Lawful/Chaos scale. Traditionally in D&D Tiamat is LE. I dunno about Rat, but wererats tend to be NE and it’d round out the trio.

I wonder how that makes them different from the IFCC, incidentally. It always felt weird in D&D with evil gods and evil outsiders being different factions.

[ziproot]

Not to mention that both Durkon and Hilgya also barely saw their gods. Durkon only was able to talk to Thor because Thor set "a special ringtone", and this happened because Durkon died and could help fix the endless cycle. I think it's quite common that most of the time you don't see any of the gods at all.

EDIT: And Jirix also saw the Dark One when he died, so it seems fairly consistent that if you die your god can have a chat with you.

[Riftwolf]

A high-level goal of "control a gate and dominate the other gods" seems perfectly in keeping with what we know of Loki, Rat, and Tiamat's character.

What do we know of Tiamat and Rats character? Tiamat likes to scheme but isn't interested in stable government. She has a prophet only interested in profit, and she was outraged at the IFCC for facilitating the deaths of thousands of black dragons.
I can't think of any information outside of crayon drawings about Rat.

Also if Lokis end-goal was to get one up on the good gods, he'd have assisted Hel rather than turning her against him. Also, three members of three different pantheons will secure a single nuke and then be able to agree on the target before the rest of the Gods pull the plug?
Bear in mind that the three Gods aren't newbies. They've been round for billions of worlds now. The Dark One's plan is based on flawed information. For the three gods to have come up with the same plan while knowing this world is a Tear in the Rain would be pretty dumb.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's more about defeating Team Evil, removing Redcloak's leverage, and then offering good terms as proof that they were being honest all along and that they want to negotiate in good faith. Redcloak himself said the talk was only taking place because he was winning, and that he had no reason to make a deal when he was (in his estimation) so close to victory. Defeat him, make the victory he envisioned impossible, and he has much less of a reason to turn the offer down. Yes. That's the kind of leverage needed to get Redcloak off of top dead center. :smallsmile:

It always felt weird in D&D with evil gods and evil outsiders being different factions. It's one of my favorite aspects of the OoTS world, in terms of how it is different from other game worlds. This 'start up' in the Evil industry is trying to make a move to become a major player. (Kind of like a one time start up Amaz0n.c0m wanted to be a major player, and now is). :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

Yes. That's the kind of leverage needed to get Redcloak off of top dead center. :smallsmile:

I wonder if that’d work, but I must say I can’t think of a better one.


It's one of my favorite aspects of the OoTS world, in terms of how it is different from other game worlds. This 'start up' in the Evil industry is trying to make a move to become a major player. (Kind of like a one time start up Amaz0n.c0m wanted to bad to be a major player, and now is). :smallcool:

I guess when you want to take over the world, anyone else with the same goal is a competitor.

[Anitar]

I guess when you want to take over the world, anyone else with the same goal is a competitor.

Not necessarily. The IFCC are allegedly planning to take over the Upper Planes, and they're being about as teamwork-y as anyone can be.

[danielxcutter]

Not necessarily. The IFCC are allegedly planning to take over the Upper Planes, and they're being about as teamwork-y as anyone can be.

The IFCC seems to be an outlier for now, and also they’re not massing the entire forces of Evil behind them, just some fiends. Archfiends are non-insignificant Evil factions, but they’re still in the grassroots stage of things.

Heck, their current scheme might not even be that grandiose compared to the other factions. They want to prove a point don’t they?

[bunsen_h]

Durkon doesn't really have much to add beyond that they saw just that, to be fair.

There's a bit more detail: Soon's Rift showed a whole world at a distance, while Girard's Rift showed an ocean close-up.


YMMV on your religious beliefs and what not...

But I like the idea of being literally able to call up whatever god you worship and have him answer, "Jim my dude!"

If "He's dead Jim", Jim would be reporting in person. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: But being on such positive terms with one's deity is a very attractive notion.

[Peelee]

Per strip #1142 and #1143, virtually everything we know about TDO's relationship with other deities comes from Thor, and Thor's knowledge mostly comes from Loki--the literal god of lies and deceit.

Who explicitly is unable to tell the truth except when dealing with Thor.

[GregTD]

But you could also say "I used to have a diamond, now I just have a ruby." Which highlights that the ruby is less valuable, not necessarily that you had the ruby before. To use another example, "I used to fly first class, now I just fly coach."

This is all true. So it is possible that they did not have concussions before.

It's is also possible that they did. The post I was responding to claimed it was only possible that the didn't have concussions before, and I was pointing out why that interpretation was not correct

[Snails]

It always felt weird in D&D with evil gods and evil outsiders being different factions.

To me, it always felt weird in D&D how so many disparate factions work together just because they are evil. It is the nature of Evil to have many more attractive reasons for betrayal, which are directly encouraged by the worldview.

(That is not to say that evil persons cannot have genuine friends. But there are significant obstacles to forming a lasting friendship that non-evil people suffer much much less from.)

[GregTD]

Quote Originally Posted by Existential comics, comic 1043, titletext
Philosophical ideas that can be refuted by punching:
1. Moral Nihilism
2. Moral Relativism
3. Scepticism about the outside world
4. Scepticism about causation
5. Denial of qualia
6. That violence never accomplishes anything

Well done.

I've long believed that the proper response to "how do I know that rock exists?" is to throw it at the person saying so.

Reality is that which happens regardless of your thoughts / feelings

[Snails]

I think it's more about defeating Team Evil, removing Redcloak's leverage, and then offering good terms as proof that they were being honest all along and that they want to negotiate in good faith. Redcloak himself said the talk was only taking place because he was winning, and that he had no reason to make a deal when he was (in his estimation) so close to victory. Defeat him, make the victory he envisioned impossible, and he has much less of a reason to turn the offer down.

It might not work. I'm pretty sure it won't be this simple in the comic itself. But on paper, that does look like the best strategy to me.

Which is pretty much how Roy is dealing with it. At some theoretical and ethical level, Durkon's effort made sense. But at a practical level, Xykon is a huge obstacle, both because he offers the surest seeming shot at victory to RC, and because changing plans now would precipitate lethal retribution against RC and Goblotopia.

Once Xykon is killed, negotiations are plausible. In fact, since Xykon's phylactery is presumably either destroyed or stripped of defenses (so it is one simple Disintegrate away from destruction), killing Xykon would almost force Redcloak to negotiate.

Logically speaking, this ambush could work, Xykon could die, and then negotiations could ensue. And this comic is wrapped up within a couple dozen strips. I doubt that is the route The Giant will take us, though.

[EmperorSarda]

That appears to be something that would be true if you were writing the comic

Since you aren't, I think we'll wait and see


Cheeky.

Given that Redcloak has sacrificed his brother, amid countless others, for the Plan, a little setback like Xykon being destroyed won't change his mind. I look forward to my supposition being proved wrong. But Redcloak does not come off as open minded or willing to change plans.


Who knows? Maybe they just haven't used enough warhammer diplomacy. :smallbiggrin:

(To clarify, I don't believe that IS the direction the comic is goint to take... but that it COULD have been a direction the comic could take.)

That's what Redcloak expects though. The violence inherent in the system that has always been used to keep goblinoids in the mud.

[durron597]

Nitpick: we have no info on where Tiamat and Rat are on the Lawful/Chaos scale. Traditionally in D&D Tiamat is LE. I dunno about Rat, but wererats tend to be NE and it’d round out the trio.

I wonder how that makes them different from the IFCC, incidentally. It always felt weird in D&D with evil gods and evil outsiders being different factions.

Perhaps that is exactly the reason the IFCC exists, then. Because Tiamat, Rat and Loki are working together and the IFCC are their top lieutenants. We even have a scene of Director Lee talking to specifically Tiamat, as opposed to some other LE deity. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) It is interesting that Tiamat has so many appearances (6?) so far.



Also if Lokis end-goal was to get one up on the good gods, he'd have assisted Hel rather than turning her against him.

Not if the long term plan is to get Durkon and OOTS to have the final showdown at the final gate with Redcloak and Xykon. If Hel's plan succeeds, then the Order never makes it to this part of the story. I have a hunch that Loki's plan requires both Redcloak and Durkon (working for Thor, not Hel) to be here.

[danielxcutter]

To me, it always felt weird in D&D how so many disparate factions work together just because they are evil. It is the nature of Evil to have many more attractive reasons for betrayal, which are directly encouraged by the worldview.

I suspect this is the reason you fight factions not currently backstabbing each other. Also I'm pretty sure they plan to backstab each other eventually, but unfortunately Evil=/=Stupid.


(That is not to say that evil persons cannot have genuine friends. But there are significant obstacles to forming a lasting friendship that non-evil people suffer much much less from.)

Oh I agree. Look at Nale and Sabine. Nale also seems to regard Zz'dtri as a friend, enough to attack a vampire cleric to save him barehanded.


Which is pretty much how Roy is dealing with it. At some theoretical and ethical level, Durkon's effort made sense. But at a practical level, Xykon is a huge obstacle, both because he offers the surest seeming shot at victory to RC, and because changing plans now would precipitate lethal retribution against RC and Goblotopia.

Once Xykon is killed, negotiations are plausible. In fact, since Xykon's phylactery is presumably either destroyed or stripped of defenses (so it is one simple Disintegrate away from destruction), killing Xykon would almost force Redcloak to negotiate.

Logically speaking, this ambush could work, Xykon could die, and then negotiations could ensue. And this comic is wrapped up within a couple dozen strips. I doubt that is the route The Giant will take us, though.

The thing is, while Redcloak does have the phylactery I'm not sure if he'd destroy it if the current plan fails and Xykon gets destroyed. That'd be the logical thing to do since the first thing Xykon would do once regenerated would be turning Redcloak into a smoking crater, but Redcloak is not always a logical man when it comes to the Plan.

You're probably right though and I also feel like the negotiations with the TDO faction are going to be more dramatic and impactful than that.

Actually now that I think about it, the Order doesn't know that Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery do they? Durkon knows about the fortress, but that's actually a red herring.

[Fyraltari]

Cheeky.

Given that Redcloak has sacrificed his brother, amid countless others, for the Plan, a little setback like Xykon being destroyed won't change his mind. I look forward to my supposition being proved wrong. But Redcloak does not come off as open minded or willing to change plans.

That's the thing though. Redcloak didn't murder his brother just for the Plan. He killed his brother to save Xykon (to enact the Plan). If Xykon is killed for good and Redcloak has to move on with the Plan without him, then there is no justification for not helping Right-Eye kill him 20 years ago. If Xykon dies without the Plan being fullfilled then Redclaok will have to be confronted with the pointlessness of the sacrifices he's made so far. Along with the dark One rebuking him, I feel like this is the only situation where Redcloak could shake off his sunk cost fallacy

[faustin]

I know it may sound crazy, or at least a long shot, but could Banjo (and Giggles) have gathered enough belief from Elan and the orcs up to this point to ascend into minor unaligned deities, thus capable of provide the extra quiddity?

[understatement]

I know it may sound crazy, or at least a long shot, but could Banjo (and Giggles) have gathered enough belief from Elan and the orcs up to this point to ascend into minor unaligned deities, thus capable of provide the extra quiddity?

Nope.

And even if they did, they don't have a 17th level divine caster to carry out the legwork.

[Fyraltari]

Nope.

And even if they did, they don't have a 17th level divine caster to carry out the legwork.

:roy: Third, they're puppets.
:elan: Oh, good! I was really getting worried there for a moment!
:belkar: Yeah, let's not swing that pendulum too far the other way, chief.

[bunsen_h]

I've long believed that the proper response to "how do I know that rock exists?" is to throw it at the person saying so.

Reality is that which happens regardless of your thoughts / feelings

There's a nice bit in Diane Duane's Spock's World (https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Spock_s_World/_rgK-dtgJMoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&kptab=overview) in which a Vulcan is blathering on about the solipsistic nature of existence and the impossibility of knowing if the world outside one's head is real.


"Ah," K's't'lk said, "the old dichotomy problem. Don't you think that one or the other of those 'lives,' physical reality or theoretical unreality, might sometimes be senior to the other? More valid, shall we say?"

"Indeed not," said the Vulcan. "It is a classic error in thinking, particularly, if I may say it, of the human sort. The illusory or internally subjective nature of physical existence is perhaps its more important and revealing characteristic. When one remembers that, on most levels of consideration, one does not exist, such matters as the question before us today assume their proper aaaaaaaiigh!"

The gentleman had been so busy expounding on the illusory nature of matter that he had never noticed K's't'lk come softly down from the stage and walk down the aisle next to which he was standing. As for the rest of it--even a Vulcan will react when a silicon-based life form bites him on the leg.

"Fascinating," K's't'lk said. "For someone whom on most levels of consideration doesn't exist, you scream with great enthusiasm. And I heard you, too. Better have that looked into."

[RowenMorland]

This makes me think that various gods other than Hel have definitely sabotaged Snarl containment via mortals when a world setup has started messing up their mortal worship supply.

[Wraithfighter]

I think that its exceedingly unlikely that The Dark One is anything but, well, what's been described thus far... but if you were going to come up with an alternate theory about what the Dark One might be that isn't "a goblin that managed to ascend to godhood under a new quiddity", I think a far better option would be another powerful force about which we know almost nothing, and all of it coming second (or third) hand:

The Snarl.

While it'd still operate entirely on the "the main evidence is the lack of evidence" factor, which is of course bad, the one time the Snarl's been depicted directly (as in, not through a character talking about it) was... decidedly purple. The Dark One's evil plan directly involves the Snarl, the Dark One apparently didn't need to be told about the Snarl (apparently being finding out about it on its own), it just kinda chilling out behind a massively open rift over Azure City/Gobbotopia while lashing out at Jacinda and her forces almost immediately through a smaller breach, one could argue that a thing created by deific discord might feel some kinship towards beings that were created by the same gods just to be slaughtered...

Still, it'd require discounting a lot of things that Thor's said about the Dark One and the Snarl. Not at all likely, but at least a fair bit more plausible than "he's some sort of long-con by three gods from different pantheons".

[faustin]

:roy: Third, they're puppets.
:elan: Oh, good! I was really getting worried there for a moment!
:belkar: Yeah, let's not swing that pendulum too far the other way, chief.


Odin: "Well, I wouldn't mind..."
Thor: "Not again, dad."

[Ochotona]

I think that its exceedingly unlikely that The Dark One is anything but, well, what's been described thus far... but if you were going to come up with an alternate theory about what the Dark One might be that isn't "a goblin that managed to ascend to godhood under a new quiddity", I think a far better option would be another powerful force about which we know almost nothing, and all of it coming second (or third) hand:

The Snarl.


Eh, we've gotten zero in-text information to indicate the snarl is sentient, or that it would have the capabilities to run a con.

On the other hand, we've been repeated told that Loki is a liar and a cheat, and then shown a backstory in 1143 in which key information is being filtered solely through Loki. We're told "recruit the purple quidddity" was Loki's idea. We're shown Loki, Tiamat, and Rat apparently cooperating to defend TDO, without any real commentary or explanation as to why all three are present. And then we're given a bunch of details about how little contact TDO has with any gods outside of Loki & Tiamat.

That strikes me as a fair amount of in-text evidence to suggest something is hinky with TDO, and that Loki at al. is involved in the hinkiness. Rich is a careful storyteller; the details he includes usually are significant.

Edit: also, this comment from Rich in response to a question about TDO's alignment in his last Q&A is suggestive:

"Further, I should point out that Redcloak says a lot of things, some of which are true and some are not. Some are things he believes to be true but definitely aren’t, and others are things he knows are false but that he desperately wants to be true. This includes things you might reasonably expect him to be an uncontested expert on, such as his own reasons for doing something, and of course it also applies to almost everything we know about the Dark One."

[Ruck]

We have Redcloak's tale of the Dark One from Start of Darkness. We have Jirix's account of meeting the Dark One. We have Thor's account of meeting the Dark One. We have Redcloak still receiving spells from the Dark One. I don't see how all of this would work if the Dark One wasn't real.

[Ochotona]

We have Redcloak's tale of the Dark One from Start of Darkness. We have Jirix's account of meeting the Dark One. We have Thor's account of meeting the Dark One. We have Redcloak still receiving spells from the Dark One. I don't see how all of this would work if the Dark One wasn't real.

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is the strongest problematic fact for the "TDO is a con" theory, imo.

Thor's and Redcloak's beliefs are easily explainable as being victims of illusions/deceptions from Loki et al. TDO clerics are explainable as actually getting spells from Loki/Tiamat/Rat.

[Fyraltari]

Something is definitely up with The Dark One, but I'm 100% confident he actually exists in-comic. A few months ago I was entertaining the idea that he was running some sort of con with Loki, Tiamat and Rat, but after reading Loki's rant at Thor, I don't think it's likely anymore.

[Ochotona]

Something is definitely up with The Dark One, but I'm 100% confident he actually exists in-comic. A few months ago I was entertaining the idea that he was running some sort of con with Loki, Tiamat and Rat, but after reading Loki's rant at Thor, I don't think it's likely anymore.

What's your take on why Tiamat and Rat are shown as present along with Loki when Thor attacks TDO, in Thor's illustrations in strip #1143? Even if you think TDO exists, that seems like a weird unexplained detail that at a minimum suggests some further scheme.

[Ruck]

"Evil gods defending the ascension of another Evil god from a Good god" doesn't seem like it needs much of a conspiracy to be plausible.

[Necris Omega]

Do they really need to change Redcloak's mind insofar as his outlook, goals, plans, or ideals? In this case, they don't need his conversion, just his cooperation.

Coerce him into helping save the world and then worry about changing his mind, if that's so important.

Besides, if he can get over his inferiority complex long enough to realize that his god already has Snarl-based leverage over the gods, gates be damned, not to mention leverage that doesn't come with explicit risk of unified retaliation for TDO and Goblinkind as a whole...? If his pragmatism can win out over his pride and overbearing lust for revenge (and to his credit, it has before), he could still be convinced.



... but, it makes it a lot easier to convince him either way when he doesn't have an epic level superlich backing him up. Really, other than the obvious risks of having to fight/kill Xykon, which was always the plan anyways, there's no reason from any diplomacy angle why he shouldn't be removed.

Warhammer Diplomacy - It might not change minds, but it sure can open them.

[understatement]

"Evil gods defending the ascension of another Evil god from a Good god" doesn't seem like it needs much of a conspiracy to be plausible.

And in that same comic, it's even stated Loki purposefully goes to defend the Dark One because he recognizes the importance of the quiddity.

[arimareiji]

I think it's more about defeating Team Evil, removing Redcloak's leverage, and then offering good terms as proof that they were being honest all along and that they want to negotiate in good faith. Redcloak himself said the talk was only taking place because he was winning, and that he had no reason to make a deal when he was (in his estimation) so close to victory. Defeat him, make the victory he envisioned impossible, and he has much less of a reason to turn the offer down.

Yes. That's the kind of leverage needed to get Redcloak off of top dead center. :smallsmile:
For some reason I'm reminded of how furious Haley was about Celia "betraying her principles all over the friggin' place"*. Whether or not either Haley or Redcloak is right to think that way, it's normal to think "You don't back down and negotiate when you're winning".

* - Tangential rant: Even if Celia is right about having found a better solution than finishing off their attackers, her implication that there's a parallel has always irritated me.
When Haley says it, she's taking responsibility for her own principles and saying they differ from Celia's. Celia neither bears a cost nor has to violate her own principles.
When Celia says it, she strong-armed Haley into a deal that makes Haley bear a heavy cost to stay in line with Celia's principles. She also hid that cost from Haley until after she's accepted, because she knows she's trying to force Haley to violate her own principles.



Nope.

And even if they did, they don't have a 17th level divine caster to carry out the legwork.
Not to mention that if they're sponsored by Odin/Thor, they'd be yellow quiddity. But as Fyraltari quoted, "Third, they're puppets." (^_~)

[Ruck]

For some reason I'm reminded of how furious Haley was about Celia "betraying her principles all over the friggin' place"*. Whether or not either Haley or Redcloak is right to think that way, it's normal to think "You don't back down and negotiate when you're winning".

* - Tangential rant: Even if Celia is right about having found a better solution than finishing off their attackers, her implication that there's a parallel has always irritated me.
When Haley says it, she's taking responsibility for her own principles and saying they differ from Celia's. Celia neither bears a cost nor has to violate her own principles.
When Celia says it, she strong-armed Haley into a deal that makes Haley bear a heavy cost to stay in line with Celia's principles. She also hid that cost from Haley until after she's accepted, because she knows she's trying to force Haley to violate her own principles.


Not to derail this thread too much, but it also bugged me that they were only in that situation because of Celia in the first place. We have multiple instances of her not knowing what humans can do almost as soon as she shows up, she knows she's not an adventurer and doesn't understand this world, and yet she decides to override Haley to bring Roy's body to Greysky City anyway. But then, self-righteous know-it-alls who don't actually know it all always bug me, no matter how Good they are.

[Oddstar]

Too bad that Redcloak, even with Warhammer diplomacy, won't change his mind. He has too much invested in his sinking fallacy to invest in other opinions.
Redcloak may not be able to change his mind. He has been wearing an artifact on his back for the last several decades, and one of the canonical features of artifacts in D&D is that they influence the minds of their bearers in all sorts of ways. If you have read Start of Darkness, when Redcloak first puts on the Crimson Mantle, he hears a voice that says "Learn." The voice saying that has inverted colors from the other speech bubbles in the comic. Then Redcloak himself says, with normal speech bubble, that he understands so much now. Then, in speech bubbles that are also color inverted, he says "I need to leave. I need to get as far away from here as possible. The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue." The fact that he said "The Plan must continue" twice, combined with the fact that his speech bubbles had the some unusual coloring as the speech bubble when the Crimson Mantle was talking to him, could mean that the artifact was putting him under a mental compulsion to continue the plan no matter what. It is quite possible that the Dark One made the Crimson Mantle to compel its wearer to continue the plan no matter what, perhaps without foreseeing that there might come a time when the Dark One did not want the plan to continue, but rather would prefer to negotiate. Who knows? Perhaps TDO wanted Redcloak to take Durkon's offer, but the Crimson Mantle won't let Redcloak do so. Perhaps Redcloak subconsciously suspects that his god wants him to change course, and so refrains from casting Commune or otherwise engaging in two-way communication with TDO precisely to avoid giving TDO the chance to tell him that. This is all just speculation, though.

[Ruck]

I do think it's possible that maybe Redcloak is so invested in His Plan and justifying the things he's done that Xykon being destroyed breaks him. Like he just takes the cloak off and dies or something like that instead of negotiating TDO's terms to perform the sealing ritual. What I don't think will happen is that it will turn out there was some workaround where Redcloak doesn't need to be involved at all and doesn't get to make any decisions on that front.

[Fyraltari]

My apologies if somebody already talked about this upthread but...

I'm thinking about Odin's line in the sixth panel. It's a reversal of the idiom "when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" which is about overrelying on a single method to solve issues and how that leds one to try to do thing in utterly inapropriate ways. So is Odin just being kooky or is he actually trying to formulate a complex thought? "When all you have is a nail, every solution starts to look like a hammer" could mean that when faced with a straightforward problem (a nail, a goblin who doesn't want to co-operate) one might consider all possible solutions (negotiations, force) as equally valid when only one is a ctually correct (the metaphorical hammer).

If that reading is correct, then Odin could be trying to tell Durkon and Thor not to follow Roy's plan.

What do you think?

[Quizatzhaderac]

My apologies if somebody already talked about this upthread but...

I'm thinking about Odin's line in the sixth panel. It's a reversal of the idiom "when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" which is about overrelying on a single method to solve issues and how that leds one to try to do thing in utterly inapropriate ways. So is Odin just being kooky or is he actually trying to formulate a complex thought? "When all you have is a nail, every solution starts to look like a hammer" could mean that when faced with a straightforward problem (a nail, a goblin who doesn't want to co-operate) one might consider all possible solutions (negotiations, force) as equally valid when only one is a ctually correct (the metaphorical hammer).

If that reading is correct, then Odin could be trying to tell Durkon and Thor not to follow Roy's plan.

What do you think?Definitely maybe.

At first Odin's reasoning in #999 "I see worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn" sounded like vaguely mystic gibberish, but on further thought there's an extra world within (the rift) and some new yarn that need to be considered.

As for my interpretation, in the original phasing, one is underestimating how different known problems are from each other.

That would make the converse underestimating how different known solutions are from each other. Durkon seems to be somewhat under the impression that there's nothing between "polite discussion" and "might makes right". Redcloak's actions have shown "polite discussion" isn't viable and some level of force is goin to be needed.

But there's still major differences in the remaining options. For example consider the two options 1) Destroy Xykon, capture recloak, offer then free him and ask to return to the negotiation table 2)Destroy Xykon, capture recloak, then threaten to destroy the crimson mantle and kill Redcloak unless he seals this rift.

[Wraithfighter]

My apologies if somebody already talked about this upthread but...

I'm thinking about Odin's line in the sixth panel. It's a reversal of the idiom "when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" which is about overrelying on a single method to solve issues and how that leds one to try to do thing in utterly inapropriate ways. So is Odin just being kooky or is he actually trying to formulate a complex thought? "When all you have is a nail, every solution starts to look like a hammer" could mean that when faced with a straightforward problem (a nail, a goblin who doesn't want to co-operate) one might consider all possible solutions (negotiations, force) as equally valid when only one is a ctually correct (the metaphorical hammer).

If that reading is correct, then Odin could be trying to tell Durkon and Thor not to follow Roy's plan.

What do you think?

It's an interesting thought. And yeah, I kinda assume that everything Odin says is actually meaning something important, at least when its not transparently silly.

I personally read that as an attempt to comfort Durkon for going back to hammer-time as the plan. To me, it was more "if you're only faced with problems that can be properly solved in the same way, then your solutions are going to end up all looking the same". Flexibility and the self-knowledge to avoid becoming over reliant on a single way of doing things is all well and good, but if the correct answer to the problems you run into keeps being "hit it with a hammer", then don't feel bad about hitting them with that hammer.

But yeah, your version is also possible, and worth thinking about. That's the trouble with talking about mystical metaphors and concepts: Sometimes things get a biiit unclear in the analogies :).

[Ronnoc]

A world where hitting people in the head changes their mind huh? I guess it's not surprising the gods tried a Shonen anime world at one point.

[EmperorSarda]

That's the thing though. Redcloak didn't murder his brother just for the Plan. He killed his brother to save Xykon (to enact the Plan). If Xykon is killed for good and Redcloak has to move on with the Plan without him, then there is no justification for not helping Right-Eye kill him 20 years ago. If Xykon dies without the Plan being fullfilled then Redclaok will have to be confronted with the pointlessness of the sacrifices he's made so far. Along with the dark One rebuking him, I feel like this is the only situation where Redcloak could shake off his sunk cost fallacy

I don't think Redcloak has that level of introspection though. Even if Xykon perishes, he will most likely just look for another sorcerer. He's going to do what he can to further the plan.

Minrah called him out for it. Redcloak is fighting for future goblins, not current goblins. He has no reason to help when he is going to look for every escape or every other method to enact the plan.

Also. Redcloak anticipated Xykon wanting to hold onto his phylactery. Meaning he probably anticipated the potential for Xykon's body being destroyed again.

Hobgoblins make better arcane casters than goblins. Why wouldn't Redcloak send out teams of adventurers with the sole cleric religious mandate to build up their arcane casters?

[hungrycrow]

I don't think Redcloak has that level of introspection though. Even if Xykon perishes, he will most likely just look for another sorcerer. He's going to do what he can to further the plan.

Minrah called him out for it. Redcloak is fighting for future goblins, not current goblins. He has no reason to help when he is going to look for every escape or every other method to enact the plan.

Also. Redcloak anticipated Xykon wanting to hold onto his phylactery. Meaning he probably anticipated the potential for Xykon's body being destroyed again.

Hobgoblins make better arcane casters than goblins. Why wouldn't Redcloak send out teams of adventurers with the sole cleric religious mandate to build up their arcane casters?

If Redcloak could find another arcane caster, he'd have to admit that he didn't have to work with Xykon this whole time and all the goblins he sacrificed to keep the relationship going died in vain. Maybe he could work through that but it'd be pretty emotionally devastating to grapple with.

[mjasghar]

The nail quote might be a reference to Redcloak’s POV.
That is, as goblins are usually oppressed and forced to take what they’re given, the tendency is to see any offer as being a forced treaty. So redcloak isn’t seeing it as here’s an opening offer he is seeing it as ‘here’s the offer take it or die’.

[danielxcutter]

The nail quote might be a reference to Redcloak’s POV.
That is, as goblins are usually oppressed and forced to take what they’re given, the tendency is to see any offer as being a forced treaty. So redcloak isn’t seeing it as here’s an opening offer he is seeing it as ‘here’s the offer take it or die’.

...Huh that makes sense.

[Peelee]

Given this strip, I no longer have any reason to suspect this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) was not a successful Commune in Stickworld (and, given Durkon's and Redcloak's commiserating with each other, I theorize that Commune is rarely successful for whatever reason).

[danielxcutter]

Well gods getting calls from their clerics seems to be their purview entirely; whether they decide to send it to an automatic response system or spend 10 minutes chatting is up to them.

[Squire Doodad]

Given this strip, I no longer have any reason to suspect this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) was not a successful Commune in Stickworld (and, given Durkon's and Redcloak's commiserating with each other, I theorize that Commune is rarely successful for whatever reason).

I'd like to imagine that Thor is just picking up a call while Hel has had three Communes since the world was created, so she decided to put some effort into it.

[Peelee]

Well gods getting calls from their clerics seems to be their purview entirely; whether they decide to send it to an automatic response system or spend 10 minutes chatting is up to them.

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

[danielxcutter]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

Basically, yes.

[Squire Doodad]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). Hel, having zero clerics, could afford to spend time with hers, especially as he was cosmically important for her, just as Durkon is cosmically important for Thor.

Yeah, pretty much. The gods are awfully fond of mortals, too, so I think it's a "get your affairs in order" thing rather than them disliking communes period.
I imagine some of the demigods actually respond to Communes and chat with their upper-tier priests from time to time, but anyone with a significant following would quickly run out of time or patience.

[Ochotona]

Headcanon: Most gods have more important things to do than play "what color is the bad guy's shirt" with a ten thousand clerics a day. Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

[Squire Doodad]

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

Maybe Redcloak never learned Commune?

[danielxcutter]

Has Redcloak, y'know, ever used a Commune himself?

Maybe he doesn't because he's scared he's been wrong. I dunno.

[Squire Doodad]

Has Redcloak, y'know, ever used a Commune himself?

Maybe he doesn't because he's scared he's been wrong. I dunno.

I imagine he either doesn't have it because few clerics ever get a response, because that was a spell slot he needed to put Enhanced Fool-Smiting on, or because he's afraid that if he talks to the god and actually explains his thoughts, they'll settle on something that takes away what RC has been working on for the last 20 years.

Imagine if RC Communed with TDO after Jirix came back, and then was able to actually get an explanation about what had happened. Imagine if "Don't mess this up" was meant to imply "You're putting a lot on the line by going after the Snarl when Gobbotopia needs to thrive. I trust you, but you better not mess this up by aiming for the grand prize when you've already won".

Though, most likely, RC is citing the first two to justify his actual fears of the third.

[Peelee]

It is hard for me to imagine what could possibly be more important to The Dark One than the success or failure of his highest level cleric on the cusp of seizing control of the gate that would let him dominate all other gods.

Some of the other reasons in this thread why TDO might not ever talk to Redcloak are plausible, but "he's just too busy" seems like a real stretch.

He's the sole god of three entire races*, all of whom may have any number of clerics, favored souls, divine crusaders, etc. etc., along with the non-class-level priests, shamans, and just general worshippers. Tell me, what are a god's duties? I sure don't know, so to me, saying that he can't have anything more important seems equally presumptuous to saying that he has tons of things more important (at least, at the moment). And both assumptions being equal, one fits the text while the other doesn't.

* Not counting racial variants, such as aquatic goblins/hobgoblins, which we know exist in Stickworld.

[Ochotona]

He's the sole god of three entire races, all of whom may have any number of clerics, favored souls, divine crusaders, etc. etc., along with the non-class-level priests, shamans, and just general worshippers. Tell me, what are a god's duties? I sure don't know, so to me, saying that he can't have anything more important seems equally presumptuous t0 saying that he has tons of things more important (at least, at the moment). Znd both assumptions being equal, one fits the text while the other doesn't.

Are any of those various other followers on the verge of either securing TDO the leverage to survive, or triggering the unmaking of the world? Are any of those other followers the target of a persuasion campaign from a significant fraction of the rest of the gods?

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

[Peelee]

Are any of those various other followers on the verge of either securing TDO the leverage to survive, or triggering the unmaking of the world? Are any of those other followers the target of a persuasion campaign from a significant fraction of the rest of the gods?

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

By word of author, it is now too late for the gods to kill The Dark One as a deity, and in-comic, the gods themselves don't even know if he can survive the transition between worlds (which TDO will have less information on). TDO also, so far as we know, is not aware that this isn't simply the second world, and his potential cosmic importance - so far as we can tell, Redcloak is less important to him than Durkon is to Thor, because we know that Thor is fully aware of all the implications of TDO's existence while we don't know that TDO is (and have every reason to suspect he does not, in fact, know this).

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

[Squire Doodad]

By word of author, it is now too late for the gods to kill The Dark One as a deity, and in-comic, the gods themselves don't even know if he can survive the transition between worlds (which TDO will have less information on). TDO also, so far as we know, is not aware that this isn't simply the second world, and his potential cosmic importance - so far as we can tell, Redcloak is less important to him than Durkon is to Thor, because we know that Thor is fully aware of all the implications of TDO's existence while we don't know that TDO is (and have every reason to suspect he does not, in fact, know this).

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

I'd argue Redcloak is still pretty important to TDO. If I had to guess, this is something on RC's end

[Ochotona]

Again, do you know what a god's duties comprise? Because if so, I would love to find out, but if not, it seems remarkably presumptuous to say that one person cannot imagine what might be more important so it is unlikely that there is anything more important.

All either of us know is what's been written in the strip, and there's been zero indication that TDO has any other major irons in the fire. To the contrary, what little we've been told about TDO has him laser focused on his plan about the gates. Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.

"TDO is too busy to talk to Redcloak" isn't a completely foreclosed take, but its pretty at odds with what we've been shown thus far. (I'd buy this theory more if, say, the strip established there was a struggle for another gate someplace else, or a major goblinoid war on another continent--something concrete to occupy TDO's attention.)

[Wraithfighter]

We've been told nothing to indicate TDO has other issues of a similar scale elsewhere in the world. I guess its possible but there's not much basis in the text for that reading--especially since a bunch of other powers--Thor, Hel, the IFCC--seem to be tracking things closely.

This is a really good point. With Hel, Thor, the IFCC and others having so much focus locked onto what's going on with Redcloak and the Order of the Stick, it certainly is odd that The Dark One doesn't personally speak to Redcloak.

No idea what that means exactly, could just be a Conservation of Details thing to prevent things from getting bloated, or The Dark One not being much of a people-person. Might even be an oversight by Rich, love his work, but every creation has little bits of weirdness in it, part of the act of creation. But... it is at least interesting to think about and consider what it might mean.

[Fyraltari]

He's the sole god of three entire races*
[...]
* Not counting racial variants, such as aquatic goblins/hobgoblins, which we know exist in Stickworld.
"And don't even get Oona started on norkers and nilbogs who get even shorter end of stick!"

[ratfox]

See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?
It's called retrophrenology!



You can go into a shop in Ankh-Morpork and order an artistic temperament with a tendency to introspection.

— Men at Arms

[hamishspence]

Given this strip, I no longer have any reason to suspect this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) was not a successful Commune in Stickworld (and, given Durkon's and Redcloak's commiserating with each other, I theorize that Commune is rarely successful for whatever reason).

Agreed. At least, an answer "Yes" to "Can we have a conversation", followed by the god activating Remote Sensing and Remote Communication - Remote Sensing to hear everything their worshipper (and everything else within 1 mile or more radius) says, and Remote Communication to talk telepathically or verbally.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...#remoteSensing

Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[arimareiji]

My apologies if somebody already talked about this upthread but...

I'm thinking about Odin's line in the sixth panel. It's a reversal of the idiom "when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" which is about overrelying on a single method to solve issues and how that leds one to try to do thing in utterly inapropriate ways. So is Odin just being kooky or is he actually trying to formulate a complex thought? "When all you have is a nail, every solution starts to look like a hammer" could mean that when faced with a straightforward problem (a nail, a goblin who doesn't want to co-operate) one might consider all possible solutions (negotiations, force) as equally valid when only one is a ctually correct (the metaphorical hammer).

If that reading is correct, then Odin could be trying to tell Durkon and Thor not to follow Roy's plan.

What do you think?
It makes a lot of sense, and I like it even if it doesn't hold up. (^_^)b


If Redcloak could find another arcane caster, he'd have to admit that he didn't have to work with Xykon this whole time and all the goblins he sacrificed to keep the relationship going died in vain. Maybe he could work through that but it'd be pretty emotionally devastating to grapple with.
Indeed. Sometimes living with your sins can be a far worse punishment than dying for them.


See, the question is how you choose what to change their mind about. Was it a thing where you thought really hard about the opinion you wanted them to have? Were there certain spots on the head that correlated to something, say, vegetables, and hitting the spot flipped their opinion?

I'm probably overthinking it.

Is there a spot I can hit to fix that...?

It's called retrophrenology!
Funny thing, the ongoing march of progress and extensive work with fMRI's have shown phrenology was much like the Weapons of Legacy sourcebook: Great idea, terrible execution. (Which is why it was fun to see the Giant take a humorous poke at it in 303 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0303.html), while also showing the healer really was on the right track.)

Specific areas of the brain actually do control very specialized functions, to the extent that it's possible to zap a small target with powerful magnetic pulses to provide relief from anxiety, depression, et al... which I guess you could call retrophrenology. But brain function had jack-all to do with the shape of the skull, let alone crazy people who used it to "prove" their prejudices.


Maybe Redcloak never learned Commune?
I guess he didn't read enough theory. (^_~)
https://media.tenor.com/images/3481d8a208177b9a14478d65f349ed8f/tenor.gif

[Peelee]

I'd argue Redcloak is still pretty important to TDO.
Oh, absolutely. It's just that without knowledge of the billions of other worlds, and the knowledge that TDO is in a unique position to stop the cycle, Redcloak isn't as important to TDO as Durkon is to Thor. If TDO found that out, I expect things would change.

All either of us know is what's been written in the strip, and there's been zero indication that TDO has any other major irons in the fire. To the contrary, what little we've been told about TDO has him laser focused on his plan about the gates. Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.

"TDO is too busy to talk to Redcloak" isn't a completely foreclosed take, but its pretty at odds with what we've been shown thus far. (I'd buy this theory more if, say, the strip established there was a struggle for another gate someplace else, or a major goblinoid war on another continent--something concrete to occupy TDO's attention.)

Indeed, all we know is that TDO hasn't directly communicated with Redcloak, and yet we have confirmation that he exists and that he still wishes to convey messages to Redcloak through other, less intensive means (eg giving someone who is physically with TDO and going back to physically be with RC imminently a message short enough that it'd count as a free action in combat).

TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

[Oxenstierna]

"... turns out it's a huge advantage for the bad guys in the long run."
*thwack*
"... or is it?"

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think Redcloak has that level of introspection though. He has his moments (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), but generally yes. {...I'm turning into Xykon}

Especially The Dark One, who is a new god and is alone in his pantheon and thus probably has all sorts of god things he has to take care of (metaphorically rebuilding the abandoned house that he found entirely on his own while the other pantheons have one god as a plumber, one as an electrician, one as a gardner, etc etc). *golf clap*

I imagine some of the demigods actually respond to Communes and chat with their upper-tier priests from time to time, but anyone with a significant following would quickly run out of time or patience. Yeah, although I am not sure that deities run on the same timeline as mortals ... and I think that they can multitask.

Indeed. Sometimes living with your sins can be a far worse punishment than dying for them. (Which is why it was fun to see the Giant take a humorous poke at it in 303 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0303.html), while also showing the healer really was on the right track.) One of the few strips in "Haley can't talk" thing that I really enjoyed.

[mashlagoo1982]

Oh, absolutely. It's just that without knowledge of the billions of other worlds, and the knowledge that TDO is in a unique position to stop the cycle, Redcloak isn't as important to TDO as Durkon is to Thor. If TDO found that out, I expect things would change.


Indeed, all we know is that TDO hasn't directly communicated with Redcloak, and yet we have confirmation that he exists and that he still wishes to convey messages to Redcloak through other, less intensive means (eg giving someone who is physically with TDO and going back to physically be with RC imminently a message short enough that it'd count as a free action in combat).

TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

Another theory...

We know that the belief of their followers shape the deities in some form or another.

Perhaps TDO does not want followers to become too familiar.
It maybe difficult to maintain the image or status as deity of revenge if your followers think you are pretty swell.

So, TDO is intentionally being aloof in action to keep the status quo with followers... maybe?
This is probably not the only reason, but it could play a part.

[Ochotona]

I think the most natural interpretation of what we've been shown is that The Dark One is behaving unusually, compared to the other Gods and extraplanars, by not more directly communicating with Redcloak. That fact coupled with the extreme lack of contact TDO has with other gods outside of Loki/Tiamat/Rat, and the lack of information we the readers have been shown about TDO, is a sign that something significant about TDO is being hidden.

[ebarde]

Redcloak needs to understand that even he can't put in the time and effort to make his deity notice him if the other party isn't willing to do the same. Poor guy.

[bunsen_h]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

I'm reminded of Verra, the Demon Goddess in Steven Brust's Dragaera series. When she's physically present and talking with a small group of people, each of them tends to hear her say different things.


TDO being busy with stuff we don't see because it doesn't matter for the plot solves this perfectly. But you are absolutely free to disbelieve this theory. So what other theories solve this just as nicely (or even better)? I'm not married to the theory, I'm perfectly willing to jump on another train if I think that one's better. It's just.... I've never heard any other theory come even close.

It could be one of those things where Redcloak needs to grow as a person before he'll be able to do something TDO needs, and the only way that can happen is for TDO to not talk with him.

Or TDO is constantly trying to reach him, but Redcloak is always wearing the Cloak inside-out to hide a couple of permanent stains and minor tears, which blocks communication. Neither of them realize this; each thinks that he's being ignored by the other. :smallbiggrin:


We know that the belief of their followers shape the deities in some form or another.

Perhaps Redcloak is utterly convinced, unconsciously, that he's not worthy of the job -- there's some (weak) supporting evidence for this in Start of Darkness. And that TDO will never communicate with him, which then causes that to happen.

[UnintensifiedFa]

My first guess into this discrepancy is just that TDO is younger and less powerful than other gods, and that a direct conversation with a communing cleric is simply something beyond his current abilities. Remember these other Gods have had nigh-infinite time to hone their abilities to perfection, but TDO came about much, much more recently, it stands to reason that he might be more limited in the scope of what he can do.

And he chose to send a message through Jirix because it was the best way that he knew how.

Remember Gods like Thor can remember each individual follower and world in perfect detail, I'd imagine that adjusting to that level of near-omniscience would be difficult for someone who was once a Mortal, like the Dark One. Godly things probably just aren't as easy for him as anyone else.

Plus, I think TDO currently believes that Redcloak has a handle on the situation, and trusts him to get what needs to be done, done.

[ebarde]

Maybe the Dark One thinks that by being obtuse and not communicating with Redcloak directly, that will only make him want even more willing to push himself harder. If he feels he's failing the Dark One, he'll be always on his toes instead of being confident that everything is according to the plan.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Maybe the Dark One thinks that by being obtuse and not communicating with Redcloak directly, that will only make him want even more willing to push himself harder. If he feels he's failing the Dark One, he'll be always on his toes instead of being confident that everything is according to the plan.

I actually really like this, it's both compelling as a motivation, and it seems fitting for both Redcloak and an Evil god. Remember, Redcloak needs the Dark one, there is no other god that he believes can grant him what he wants.

In all honesty, I think the Dark One's relative lack of direct communication probably stems from multiple converging factors, like this, but also his business and relative newness as a God. At least, that's what I'm going with until we see otherwise.

[danielxcutter]

This might not be the reason, but in D&D knowing how to use your abilities is just as if even not more important than what they are. Gods like Hel and Thor have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure these things out. TDO has like a few centuries.

So yeah, I can see that theory being a thing.

[Quizatzhaderac]

My money is on Redcloak being subconsciously worried that TDO won't share his sunk cost fallacy. Actual practical concerns being present, but not paramount.

Nor have we ever been told that the gods have a bunch of time-consuming scut work they have to handle.The gods must be busy. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)

The outer planes are at continuous war with each other, this has been referenced, particularly that TDO needs an army in the afterlife (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

Also, maybe there are Lovecraftian things from outside "reality" trying to claw their way in? That seems like that might be a thing in the setting.

Considering Doylist reasons: the gods can't be telling main characters exactly what to do and how to do it. The main characters are only main characters because they decide stuff.

Hel and Greg (Wednesday nights on ABC) are a special case, because the audience spent a lot of time inside Durkon's head seeing how Durkon and Greg interpreted events.

[bunsen_h]

Also, maybe there are Lovecraftian things from outside "reality" trying to claw their way in? That seems like that might be a thing in the setting.

That's more or less what the Snarl is.

[Rrmcklin]

I think the most natural interpretation of what we've been shown is that The Dark One is behaving unusually, compared to the other Gods and extraplanars, by not more directly communicating with Redcloak. That fact coupled with the extreme lack of contact TDO has with other gods outside of Loki/Tiamat/Rat, and the lack of information we the readers have been shown about TDO, is a sign that something significant about TDO is being hidden.

Even if that were the case, "The Dark One isn't actually real, and his entire existence is just a fabrication by Loki/Rat/Tiamat" is both a highly unlikely and highly unsatisfying explanation for what it is.

[Quizatzhaderac]

That's more or less what the Snarl is.Well, thing (singular) and trying to claw it's way out.

Certainly a bad thing and a big deal, but outside is infinitely bigger than inside.

We can assume that the things outside are less interesting than the Snarl (given the focus of the story), but maybe there're an undecillion Uvuudaum in the multiverse and the gods have to be playing whack-a-mole if they don't want the outer planes to become a far realm?

[WanderingMist]

Hammer diplomacy is sort of the worst plan, except for all the others.
Is this a Freefall reference?

In the Geekery thread, it was proposed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25004045&postcount=361) that what we're seeing here might not be commune at all, but rather the remote sensing and remote communication divine powers.
Durkon literally says Commune in the first panel.

Jirix's report back from the afterlife is the strongest problematic fact for the "TDO is a con" theory, imo.
It is a gigantic one for this theory, especially as there was a huge army of goblins behind the Dark One, and if those three had any sort of con planned, why would Tiamat NOT be involving the dragons, especially after Familicide?

Thor's and Redcloak's beliefs are easily explainable as being victims of illusions/deceptions from Loki et al. TDO clerics are explainable as actually getting spells from Loki/Tiamat/Rat.
No, they aren't. When gods go out of their ways to alter spells in another domain, every deity within that pantheon knows immediately (Cf: Thor speaking with Tiger over the Control Weather/sonic damage thing). This would mean all the gods would notice Redcloak getting spells from Loki, Tiamat, and Rat.

[Peelee]

I think the most natural interpretation of what we've been shown is that The Dark One is behaving unusually, compared to the other Gods and extraplanars, by not more directly communicating with Redcloak.

What we've been shown is that the Dark One is behaving usually compared to the other gods by not more directly communicating with Redcloak (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html): Thor: "just cast Commune". Durkon: "You never answer those!")

Further, Durkon's immediate consolation to Redcloak is that The Dark one is busy with work, and Redcloak agrees (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html). This is clearly a stretch as to why TDO has completely blacked out communication with Reddie, but both acknowledge that it is a thing, so that lends some credence to my theory that he has some sort of god duties which do take time away from interacting with clerics.

[Good Coyote]

This might not be the reason, but in D&D knowing how to use your abilities is just as if even not more important than what they are. Gods like Hel and Thor have had billions, maybe even trillions of years to figure these things out. TDO has like a few centuries.

So yeah, I can see that theory being a thing.

Reminded me of V coaching Elan on how to use illusions. And then also V's self-declared failure to use the soul-splice powers wisely. I could see that as a sort of background theme of the comic.

[hungrycrow]

Is this a Freefall reference?

It's from something Churchill said about democracy.

[Ochotona]

there was a huge army of goblins behind the Dark One, and if those three had any sort of con planned, why would Tiamat NOT be involving the dragons, especially after Familicide?

We don't get directly shown the afterlife sequence, though--we're (unusually) shown a crayon version of what Jirix is describing. Then when redcloak asks "did that really happen" (something of an odd question itself) Jirix says "I may have left some stuff out"--potentially a subtle hedge from Rich. The indirectness of the whole scene is weird, especially for a strip usually directly shows what's going on.


When gods go out of their ways to alter spells in another domain, every deity within that pantheon knows immediately (Cf: Thor speaking with Tiger over the Control Weather/sonic damage thing). This would mean all the gods would notice Redcloak getting spells from Loki, Tiamat, and Rat.

This, though, is a potentially fatal problem with the theory. I don't recall the Thor/Tiger discussion--where'd that happen? (#453's just a conflict over geography, not spell domains, right?) And do we know enough about what domain spells TDO clerics have versus what domains Loki/Tiamat/Rat have, to tell if there's an inconsistency?

[Yirggzmb]

We don't get directly shown the afterlife sequence, though--we're (unusually) shown a crayon version of what Jirix is describing. Then when redcloak asks "did that really happen" (something of an odd question itself) Jirix says "I may have left some stuff out"--potentially a subtle hedge from Rich. The indirectness of the whole scene is weird, especially for a strip usually directly shows what's going on.

I could see argument that Jirix is not in any way a main character though. Xykon and Redcloak, sure. They're main villains. But I'd have been surprised to see the comic follow Jirix specifically into the afterlife.

[Ochotona]

I could see argument that Jirix is not in any way a main character though. Xykon and Redcloak, sure. They're main villains. But I'd have been surprised to see the comic follow Jirix specifically into the afterlife.

Sure, but the point of directly showing that scene wouldn't be Jirix, but The Dark One--all the other major villains have had at least a few stand-alone scenes where we see them act outside the presence of the Order.

And in that particular strip it would have been simple to portray what happened as a ordinary flashback, in Rich's usual style, with Jirix's speech as overlying bubbles. Instead we get the unusual crayon-style to emphasize we're not being directly shown what happened.

Fishy, especially when combined with all the other ambiguity around TDO.

[arimareiji]

My money is on Redcloak being subconsciously worried that TDO won't share his sunk cost fallacy. Actual practical concerns being present, but not paramount.
Big ditto to this statement, but I'm not sure where it leads. (I've previously guessed that it's how he "doesn't realize" he actually could check in with TDO.)

I could even see Redcloak being so unable to accept being wrong that he condemns himself to the Javert ending (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert#Part_Four:_St._Denis).


Hel and Greg (Wednesday nights on ABC) are a special case, because the audience spent a lot of time inside Durkon's head seeing how Durkon and Greg interpreted events.
XD

...but somehow I imagine they'd turn it into the wacky comedy Greg Goes To Hel, sort of a cross between sitcom and a manzai a la Pinky and the Brain. But their plans constantly fail from the get-go, accompanied by a laugh track as blatant as on Joey's show-within-the-show on Friends.

[Rrmcklin]

We don't get directly shown the afterlife sequence, though--we're (unusually) shown a crayon version of what Jirix is describing. Then when redcloak asks "did that really happen" (something of an odd question itself) Jirix says "I may have left some stuff out"--potentially a subtle hedge from Rich. The indirectness of the whole scene is weird, especially for a strip usually directly shows what's going on.

It's already been pointed out that Jirix is hardly a main character so not seeing his specific voyage to the afterlife is hardly surprising, but I'd also point out that Redcloak's question "did that actually happen" is perfectly valid to ask if Jirix is just trying to rile up the troops and citizens or if he actually did get direct message from their god. Something Jirix confirms, yes, did happen. There's no "potentially subtle hedge" with the "I may have left some stuff out" here, unless Jirix just flat out lied. Which we know he did because we have Word Of God that "Don't mess this up" is a direct message to Redcloak to keep up the plan.

I don't necessarily question thinking there are unknown details about the Dark One, but you do seem to be ignoring or interpreting things in ways that don't seem reasonable to come to a specific conclusion on what that might be.


Sure, but the point of directly showing that scene wouldn't be Jirix, but The Dark One--all the other major villains have had at least a few stand-alone scenes where we see them act outside the presence of the Order.

And in that particular strip it would have been simple to portray what happened as a ordinary flashback, in Rich's usual style, with Jirix's speech as overlying bubbles. Instead we get the unusual crayon-style to emphasize we're not being directly shown what happened.

Fishy, especially when combined with all the other ambiguity around TDO.

I think the problem there is that you're assuming the Dark One is a major villian - he is not (at least not yet), Redcloak is. The situation is much the same in how the Giant has said that Xykon, not the Snarl itself, is the actual villain and threat. I believe he's also said that this story is about the mortals and their world, not the gods, so that might also just be another thing you're missing.

And before you say "But Thor" Thor only really appeared as more than a joke when he had valuable information to give that would further the story, if and when we have a reason to believe the same of the Dark One, then it'll be strange we're not seeing him in person. But as it stands, communication with him is not actually necessary for the story to advance.

[Ochotona]

I don't necessarily question thinking there are unknown details about the Dark One, but you do seem to be ignoring or interpreting things in ways that don't seem reasonable to come to a specific conclusion on what that might be.

Maybe, especially if it was just one little thing or if OOTS was less carefully plotted work. But Rich is a meticulous storyteller, who almost always includes things for a reason and provides and least some foreshadowing of major twists.

And re TDO we're a) very pointedly never shown him directly; b) given lots of details that tell us that other characters you'd expect to be familiar with TDO have virtually no contact with him; c) have most of the information about TDO filtered through the character who is the literal god of lies and tricks.

And when Rich was directly asked about TDO's alignment, he both ducked the question and flagged that some things Redcloak thinks are true, about things he should be an authority on, aren't true--including TDO.

Any one point might be too weak a breadcrumb to support such a major twist, but taken together I think they pretty clearly suggest that either TDO doesn't exist, or that there's a similarly major twist pending.

[Peelee]

Maybe, especially if it was just one little thing or if OOTS was less carefully plotted work. But Rich is a meticulous storyteller, who almost always includes things for a reason and provides and least some foreshadowing of major twists.

And re TDO we're a) very pointedly never shown him directly; b) given lots of details that tell us that other characters you'd expect to be familiar with TDO have virtually no contact with him; c) have most of the information about TDO filtered through the character who is the literal god of lies and tricks.

And when Rich was directly asked about TDO's alignment, he both ducked the question and flagged that some things Redcloak thinks are true, about things he should be an authority on, aren't true--including TDO.

Any one point might be too weak a breadcrumb to support such a major twist, but taken together I think they pretty clearly suggest that either TDO doesn't exist, or that there's a similarly major twist pending.

The author has also made statements on what The Dark One's plan actually is (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602358-The-problem-with-Thor-and-Durkon-s-plan&p=24253092#post24253092) as well as what happened between the other gods and The Dark One once he ascended to godhood, and what he has been doing in the centuries since (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?266118-What-is-the-point-of-redcloak-s-plan/page2&p=14473844#post14473844). If The Dark One does not exist, that means by necessity that the author lied directly to the readers, which I do not believe is the case.

ETA: Hey, just noticed I won that wager (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24252757&postcount=9). Neat!

[Ochotona]

I had not seen those posts and agree they make TDO not existing outright less likely, since they do strongly imply, if not outright confirm, TDO has had a real history.

[Peelee]

I had not seen those posts and agree they make TDO not existing outright less likely, since they do strongly imply, if not outright confirm, TDO has had a real history.

Totally understandable. I had the rather unfair advantage of totally being active in the discussion around at least one of them, after all.:smallwink:

[mjasghar]

"... turns out it's a huge advantage for the bad guys in the long run."
*thwack*
"... or is it?"

Any hitting on the head risks killing someone so the nice aren’t as likely to do it

[arimareiji]

The author has also made statements on what The Dark One's plan actually is (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602358-The-problem-with-Thor-and-Durkon-s-plan&p=24253092#post24253092) as well as what happened between the other gods and The Dark One once he ascended to godhood, and what he has been doing in the centuries since (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?266118-What-is-the-point-of-redcloak-s-plan/page2&p=14473844#post14473844). If The Dark One does not exist, that means by necessity that the author lied directly to the readers, which I do not believe is the case.

ETA: Hey, just noticed I won that wager (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24252757&postcount=9). Neat!
Thank you, this clarifies a lot.

I'm wondering about your take: Does the second post suggest "TDO can't be killed now (except by the Snarl)" as some in that thread seemed to think, or "The gods can't just swat TDO like a fly any more, it would actually be a fight"?

[bunsen_h]

Durkon literally says Commune in the first panel.

It's possible that the Commune was just to get Thor's attention -- a "ping!" -- and that all the conversation was via Thor's divine abilities.

[arimareiji]

It's possible that the Commune was just to get Thor's attention -- a "ping!" -- and that all the conversation was via Thor's divine abilities.
(agreement)
If I send a single text to your pager, it doesn't intrinsically serve as a medium for full conversation. But if you see that text and call me, the call is.

In this metaphor, Commune is a single text to a pager (that's guaranteed to get a single simple response). But the deity abilities you brought up earlier in this thread, Remote Sensing and Remote Communication (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm), are a connected call.

The Commune doesn't force Thor to "call" Durkon using his own powers, on his own initiative. But neither does it prohibit him from doing so.
(/agreement)

[mjasghar]

With regards to DO and Redcloak.
1) Redcloak has had his life extended beyond its natural span and frozen as almost a teenager by an artifact created to make an agent focused on a specific task.
2) The DO is an Evil god.
It’s quite possible that as soon as the task is done the Mantle will simply let him die as time catches up. After all, Evil gods aren’t known for being grateful once they get what they want.
So the DO sees Redcloak as purely a tool that will do what it’s told regardless (partly due to the info dump of the Mantle and partly due to his arrested development). As an Evil god there’s no need to bother with his morale. Meanwhile Jirix is part of an organised culture who will now have the first recognised goblinoid state. The DO has to keep him happy and feeling special.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I suppose that isn't impossible, but it kinda feels... off? I dunno, maybe I just want Redcloak to have a better ending than that.

[mjasghar]

After all he has done and allowed to be done, death by rapid ageing after completing his task is more than he deserves.

[arimareiji]

With regards to DO and Redcloak.
1) Redcloak has had his life extended beyond its natural span and frozen as almost a teenager by an artifact created to make an agent focused on a specific task.
2) The DO is an Evil god.
It’s quite possible that as soon as the task is done the Mantle will simply let him die as time catches up. After all, Evil gods aren’t known for being grateful once they get what they want.
So the DO sees Redcloak as purely a tool that will do what it’s told regardless (partly due to the info dump of the Mantle and partly due to his arrested development). As an Evil god there’s no need to bother with his morale. Meanwhile Jirix is part of an organised culture who will now have the first recognised goblinoid state. The DO has to keep him happy and feeling special.
"Villains casually kill their minions or let them die" (as a way to show how Evil they are) is a common trope. But imo it's sloppy storytelling, unless it's a sendup of the trope or to show the villain is stupidly self-destructive.

Minions who see that anyone who gives the boss bad news dies, will just stop giving the boss bad news (leaving them blind and causing their downfall). Here, minions who see that the chief minion who sacrificed everything to achieve the boss's goal is rewarded with immediately shriveling up and dying, aren't going to do jack except inasmuch as they're compelled to.

If Good isn't (necessarily) Dumb, it's fair to say Evil isn't (necessarily) Stupidly Self-Destructive.

[Schroeswald]

I’m pretty sure we saw Redcloak without the cloak at least once anyway, the cloak paused his aging completely, it didn’t stop the effects of the aging he did until he took it off (which is what “he takes the cloak off and rapidly ages to dust” would require the cloak to do).

[pearl jam]

"Villains casually kill their minions or let them die" (as a way to show how Evil they are) is a common trope. But imo it's sloppy storytelling, unless it's a sendup of the trope or to show the villain is stupidly self-destructive.

Minions who see that anyone who gives the boss bad news dies, will just stop giving the boss bad news (leaving them blind and causing their downfall). Here, minions who see that the chief minion who sacrificed everything to achieve the boss's goal is rewarded with immediately shriveling up and dying, aren't going to do jack except inasmuch as they're compelled to.

If Good isn't (necessarily) Dumb, it's fair to say Evil isn't (necessarily) Stupidly Self-Destructive.

that's generally what you can expect from evil followers in the first place, probably, and, correctly or perhaps incorrectly in the case of a true believer, quite likely how the bosses expect they'll behave if not kept in line.

[danielxcutter]

I doubt he wears it along with his armor while he sleeps. Some 3.5e items can be attuned to the user, the Mantle's probably one of those.

[bunsen_h]

I doubt he wears it along with his armor while he sleeps. Some 3.5e items can be attuned to the user, the Mantle's probably one of those.

Have we ever seen him without the cloak and armour? It wouldn't seem inappropriate to me if he were to wear them continually, out of paranoia and/or feeling it needful to be prepped and ready at all times. I'm sure there's magic that could simulate bathing and laundering.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Sure, but the point of directly showing that scene wouldn't be Jirix, but The Dark One--all the other major villains have had at least a few stand-alone scenes where we see them act outside the presence of the Order. The Dark One isn't a main character; he is a god, a part of the setting.

Consider the movie Casablanca. Is Hitler the main villain, or even a character at all? He is not, because while the movie is set during WW2, the movie is not about WW2.

Rich (I presume) wants this to be a story about mortals, which is why Thor is super chill about how Durkon does his thing. The last thing Rich wants is TDO micromanaging Redcloak's life.

I could even see Redcloak being so unable to accept being wrong that he condemns himself to the Javert ending (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert#Part_Four:_St._Denis).I strongly doubt that specifically will happen.

For the Doylist Reason that Rich doesn't want to depict suicide as an answer (Even for the ghost in That's the spirit, moving on to the afterlife isn't the answer).

For the Watsonian reason that in the setting suicide doesn't even let you avoid your problems. If Redcloak kills himself, he'll end up face to face with Right-Eye and TDO.

[danielxcutter]

Have we ever seen him without the cloak and armour? It wouldn't seem inappropriate to me if he were to wear them continually, out of paranoia and/or feeling it needful to be prepped and ready at all times. I'm sure there's magic that could simulate bathing and laundering.

The only spell I know of that both certainly works that way and isn't a hideous waste is Prestidigitation, an arcane spell. A custom use-activated item of it might work, but unless we see proof of that I don't find it likely. Having the Bearer age or even die if it's taken off seems like a pretty big weakness, especially since even gods can't afford to spam artifact creation. There's more than a few instances in adventure modules and stuff where destroying an artifact weakens the creator.

[dancrilis]

Have we ever seen him without the cloak and armour?

I believe so. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)

It is possible that he has both of them tucked into his pants but I see no particular reason to assume he has.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I believe so. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)

It is possible that he has both of them tucked into his pants but I see no particular reason to assume he has.

This is actually nice to know... it kind of makes the physical cloak a non-issue, unless someone comes up with powerful enough magic to destroy it utterly.

Basically we can treat the Cloak as part of Redcloak.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder what the Mantle actually does? Outside "plot device" there actually isn't much it does for an artifact, relatively speaking.

What we do know about it is that it grants the user

Immunity to diseases(came in handy once, not useless, but still kinda weaksauce especially for a cleric)
Knowledge of the divine half of the Ritual(excellent for the plot, less for much else)
Stalls the aging process(not quite unique but still very good for its purpose)


I mean it's not bad, but I guess it was never about giving much power to the Bearer and more about giving them an opportunity to do the Plan.

[hroþila]

Some speculate that it gave him an immediate power boost, depending on your interpretation of his first kill in SoD and of Right-Eye's reaction to it.

[Peelee]

I wonder what the Mantle actually does? Outside "plot device" there actually isn't much it does for an artifact, relatively speaking.

Knowledge of the divine half of the Ritual(excellent for the plot, less for much else)


Given that it is a literal plot device, it doesn't really need to be good for much else. :smallwink:

[danielxcutter]

Some speculate that it gave him an immediate power boost, depending on your interpretation of his first kill in SoD and of Right-Eye's reaction to it.

Hmm, perhaps. Even if that paladin was really low-level, so was Redcloak. And there's something similar in Eberron I think, except with a location instead of an artifact.


Given that it is a literal plot device, it doesn't really need to be good for much else. :smallwink:

Fair.

[Peelee]

Some speculate that it gave him an immediate power boost, depending on your interpretation of his first kill in SoD and of Right-Eye's reaction to it.

That was the same day Redcloak was being initiated as a full-fledged Cleric, IIRC, so it's likely RE may have just not known RC could do it to start with.

[danielxcutter]

As much as Redcloak's done a load of Evil things it's pretty easy to see how he was driven to that point, if you ask me.

[dancrilis]

That was the same day Redcloak was being initiated as a full-fledged Cleric, IIRC, so it's likely RE may have just not known RC could do it to start with.

I believe that scene was initially used to justify the Destruction domain as it grants the 'Smite' power and that power can only be used once a day - so it matches the text nicely on two counts.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Given that it is a literal plot device, it doesn't really need to be good for much else. :smallwink:

But given this is a tongue-in-cheek DnD parody I'd Imagine someone would complain to the GM if they were given an artifact that does jack squat except advance the plot. :smallbiggrin: