New feats for the Tarrasque

[H_H_F_F]

So, the Tarrasque. Colossal, great immunities, good ability scores, 48 HD, can be killed by a level 3 wizard squad with acid arrow wands. It was made to be the ultimate monster, but it was made with a veryvlow-op mindset.

The Tarrasque has 17 feat slots, 10 of which are epic. The designers seemed to think alertness, Iron will, Dodge, and 6 instances of toughness (raising its hp from the measly 840 to the truly impressive 858) were good choices.

Changing nothing by feats and skills, could you make th Tarrasque a real threat? What feats would you pick for it?

[liquidformat]

So, the Tarrasque. Colossal, great immunities, good ability scores, 48 HD, can be killed by a level 3 wizard squad with acid arrow wands. It was made to be the ultimate monster, but it was made with a veryvlow-op mindset.

The Tarrasque has 17 feat slots, 10 of which are epic. The designers seemed to think alertness, Iron will, Dodge, and 6 instances of toughness (raising its hp from the measly 840 to the truly impressive 858) were good choices.

Changing nothing by feats and skills, could you make th Tarrasque a real threat? What feats would you pick for it?

One question and one comment, How are you killing the tarrasque with just acid arrow wands, don't you need wish or miracle to actually kill it?

Second comment, not being a dragon it isn't subject to getting epic feats without class levels...

[Biggus]

The Tarrasque has 17 feat slots, 10 of which are epic. The designers seemed to think alertness, Iron will, Dodge, and 6 instances of toughness (raising its hp from the measly 840 to the truly impressive 858) were good choices.

Changing nothing by feats and skills, could you make th Tarrasque a real threat? What feats would you pick for it?

My favourite one that I've seen swapped its six Toughness feats for Rock Hurling and Improved RH (RoS), Brutal Throw and Power Throw (CAdv) and PB Shot and Far Shot. It can hurl rocks up to 800ft, doing a base damage of 2d6+17, and can Power Throw for up to +48 more damage in theory. In practice it's probably going to be adding about +15 to +20 for an average of 40ish damage per hit. Not devastating to level 20 characters but not trivial either, and it definitely gets rid of the "low levels charaters can kill it without risk if they can fly" thing.



Second comment, not being a dragon it isn't subject to getting epic feats without class levels...

It's never been officially stated when monsters can take epic feats, but if you look at the monsters in the ELH they start to get them at 21HD. Which is really stupid, because some creatures with 21HD are way below CR21, but in the absence of anything more official that seems to be the way it works.

[Khatoblepas]

You'll probably want some way for it to fly, because at the levels it's fighting at, flight is a very common thing, and a ranged attack. Shape Soulmeld for a Pegasus Cloak or Airstep Sandals might be a good way to do it.

I think it would be pretty cool for the Terrasque to have Deflect Arrows/Infinite Deflection/Exceptional Deflection so it can deflect back those orbs of force wizards like to use, and Improved Unarmed Strike would also give them iterative attacks. The only trick is to give them enough Dexterity and Wisdom to be able to take those feats. Imagine firing your souped up Orb of Force at the Terrasque only for it to punch it right back at you. Terrifying.

A lot of the Terrasque's shortcomings can be fixed with the Half-Dragon template, too. Half Force Dragon, the Dragon Breath feat, and you have literally godzilla with nuclear breath AND flight. though I'm not sure how to imagine a Terrasque with wings. Maybe its carapace splits apart like a beetle?

[Zancloufer]

I think it would be pretty cool for the Terrasque to have Deflect Arrows/Infinite Deflection/Exceptional Deflection so it can deflect back those orbs of force wizards like to use, and Improved Unarmed Strike would also give them iterative attacks. The only trick is to give them enough Dexterity and Wisdom to be able to take those feats. Imagine firing your souped up Orb of Force at the Terrasque only for it to punch it right back at you. Terrifying.

The Tarrasque already has infinite deflection for rays, lines, cones and spells like "Magic Missile". Not sure if it actually stops orb spell, though it wouldn't be a stretch that basically any ranged touch attack spell is deflected with a 30% reflection chance.

Cut out Alterness, Dodge, Iron will and it's 6 toughness's for sure. Steadfast Determination and Diehard would be scary feats on it, along with those ToB manouvres that allow Concentration to (Reflex) Saves to boost it's save to some crazy numbers. Still leaves us with 5 feats. The Devastating Critical Chain would cost us our original 5 remaining feats but give it an SoD. (Improved) Multi-attack would be a decent choice as well.

We could also give him 50~60k GP in reusable magic items to shore up his defenses. Would at least cover some of his glaring weaknesses and give a logical reason for it to have a massive pile of loot.

[Khatoblepas]

The Tarrasque already has infinite deflection for rays, lines, cones and spells like "Magic Missile". Not sure if it actually stops orb spell, though it wouldn't be a stretch that basically any ranged touch attack spell is deflected with a 30% reflection chance.

Alas, I don't think that just any ranged touch attack can be deflected, hence why having Exceptional Deflection + Reflect Arrows would be such a shock to the complacent wizard. They can't just hang back and shoot Acid Arrows at the beast because it would just punch them right back at them. Range is incredibly important to killing the Terrasque normally, and it being effectively immune to ranged attacks means that you have to get up close and personal with it.

[H_H_F_F]

How are you killing the tarrasque with just acid arrow wands, don't you need wish or miracle to actually kill it?

Well, you can't really kill the Tarrasque I guess, but you can defeat it. Make it unconciouss and drop it in a pool of acid or something.

In general, that clause doesn't really affect the fight itself, but you're right.


My favourite one that I've seen swapped its six Toughness feats for Rock Hurling and Improved RH (RoS), Brutal Throw and Power Throw (CAdv) and PB Shot and Far Shot. It can hurl rocks up to 800ft, doing a base damage of 2d6+17, and can Power Throw for up to +48 more damage in theory. In practice it's probably going to be adding about +15 to +20 for an average of 40ish damage per hit. Not devastating to level 20 characters but not trivial either, and it definitely gets rid of the "low levels charaters can kill it without risk if they can fly" thing.

I like this one too! Not very powerful for sure, but a decent use of its 48 BaB and actually covers a main weakness in a pretty thematic way. Very cool!



Cut out Alterness, Dodge, Iron will and it's 6 toughness's for sure. Steadfast Determination and Diehard would be scary feats on it, along with those ToB manouvres that allow Concentration to (Reflex) Saves to boost it's save to some crazy numbers. Still leaves us with 5 feats. The Devastating Critical Chain would cost us our original 5 remaining feats but give it an SoD. (Improved) Multi-attack would be a decent choice as well.

Diehard would be strange. As for devestating critical - I think the Tarrasque actually does all right in melee. Devestating critical would make it truly scary, but wouldn't open up its options. Still can be laughed at from the sky.

ToB seems like it ahould be a natural feat with an initiator level 24, but I can't think of an accesible stance I'd really like to take. Thoughts?


You'll probably want some way for it to fly, because at the levels it's fighting at, flight is a very common thing, and a ranged attack. Shape Soulmeld for a Pegasus Cloak or Airstep Sandals might be a good way to do it.

Probably. Speaking of soulmelds, any good heart/soul ones it might want to bind with an epic feat?


I think it would be pretty cool for the Terrasque to have Deflect Arrows/Infinite Deflection/Exceptional Deflection so it can deflect back those orbs of force wizards like to use, and Improved Unarmed Strike would also give them iterative attacks. The only trick is to give them enough Dexterity and Wisdom to be able to take those feats. Imagine firing your souped up Orb of Force at the Terrasque only for it to punch it right back at you. Terrifying.

A lot of the Terrasque's shortcomings can be fixed with the Half-Dragon template, too. Half Force Dragon, the Dragon Breath feat, and you have literally godzilla with nuclear breath AND flight. though I'm not sure how to imagine a Terrasque with wings. Maybe its carapace splits apart like a beetle?

I tend to agree with the stance that the Tarrasque doesn't really need the X deflection line, though I'll admit they are very good feats.

Template wise - plenty of templates could fix the Tarrasque, this excercise is about trying to do it as much as possible with just feats.

[liquidformat]

I am thinking going all in on Diamond Mind and maxing out Concentration with 35 con you already are going to have a great boost to the checks too, so dump search and survival and focus in on concentration.

Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bounding Assault, Time Stands Still) Martial Stance (Hearing the Air) Although Stance of Alacrity is better than Hearing the Air without a decent number of counters it isn't super useful. Also take adaptive style

Also pickup flight: Shape Soulmeld for a Pegasus Cloak or Airstep Sandals (as stated above)

Epic feats: there really aren't many for mundanes that are that good, my favorite Blinding Speed you don't qualify for and a lot of the others take pretty big feat chains so I will have to think more about the worth while epic feats.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The rock hurling line is very nice thinking! The deflection line would also be very good... If it had the stats for it. I don't think we take items into account, this is still a monster, not a PC, so it doesn't have the 21 Dex necessary for the epic deflection feats. And only deflecting one arrow per round is really not that great.

I think Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder are mandatory. Bind Andromalius if they try to get you with invisibility, bind Dahlver-Nar if you see a level 3 wizard that wants to summon an allip, bind Ronove because, really, 6ft is way too slow, and of course, bind Savnok if you think that 35 AC and DR 15 is just not enough against melee attacks.

In the same "I have no class levels and I must do something else than hitting stuff", we have Shape Soulmeld. Twice. You want Cerulean Sandals, of course. Increase to your land speed and the ability to walk on water! It should be the very first feat you take. Then take as many Incarnum feats as you want to put all the Essentia into Cerulean Sandals and finally go faster than a Medium character.
Add also the Strongheart Vest with the epic feat Open Heart Chakra if you want something more general than Dahlver-Nar. But that starts to be a lot of Incarnum feats


Large and in Charge (Draconomicon) with Combat Reflexes becomes quite literally "You can't approach closer than 20 ft if I do not allow you. Ever."

TWF->Prehensile Tail gives you 3 more attacks, likely all stronger than your bite, with a better bonus than your tail attack (-4 for improvised weapon and -5 for secondary natural weapon, and a two-tons tree, still waaaaay in the "light charge" for a Tarasque, deals 20d6 per hit). That is very much worth two feats. Plus this is necessary for Rock Hurling since you won't be able to pick rocks up without hands.
And in epic feats, Improved Initiative doesn't hurt, Dire Charge is really good when you have so many natural weapons, but everything else the Tarasque would love (Deflection, Epic Speed, Distant Shot if you go Rock Hurling) requires Dexterity, so that's bad.

So, my selection of feats is :
Normal feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder, Shape Soulmeld (Cerulean Sandals), Two-Weapon Fighting, Prehensile Tail, Improved Initiative, Large and Charge (10 feats)

Hurling feats: Rock Hurling, Improved Rock Hurling, Brutal Throw, Power Throw. (I don't think, PB shot/ Far shot are necessary here) (4 feats)

Bonus Essentia x2: +20 ft with cerulean.

Epic Feats: Dire Charge



Alternative, without Rock Hurling:

Normal feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder, Shape Soulmeld (Cerulean Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), Two-Weapon Fighting, Prehensile Tail, Improved Initiative, Large and Charge (11 feats)
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Open Heart Chakra (2 feats)
Bonus Essentia x4: +30 ft with the sandals and DR 2 for ability drains, or +10 ft and reduce ability damages by 6 (almost immunity, considering the general range of ability drains), and you switch as a swift action.
Edit: adding defenses to Reflex and Will, since Fort is already good enough: Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind, Action before Thought)

With the alternative, you are more vulnerable to flying creatures, but you are protected from your most glaring weakness, and it is much more in the spirit of the beast to only be defeatable through damage. And hey, if a mad wizard is willing to pay 10,000 gp for a Feathered Wings graft, since you are immune to ability damage, you can fly all day! Yay!

[Beni-Kujaku]

I am thinking going all in on Diamond Mind and maxing out Concentration with 35 con you already are going to have a great boost to the checks too, so dump search and survival and focus in on concentration.

Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Bounding Assault, Time Stands Still) Martial Stance (Hearing the Air) Although Stance of Alacrity is better than Hearing the Air without a decent number of counters it isn't super useful. Also take adaptive style

Also pickup flight: Shape Soulmeld for a Pegasus Cloak or Airstep Sandals (as stated above)

Epic feats: there really aren't many for mundanes that are that good, my favorite Blinding Speed you don't qualify for and a lot of the others take pretty big feat chains so I will have to think more about the worth while epic feats.

Well, the thing is, people will not fly at less than 60 ft above the ground if they don't want you to attack them (the reach in height, without jumping, of a Colossal creature is already 128 ft). Since the cloak and sandal both need you to start and finish your turn on solid ground, they really don't do much for the Tarasque. However, Moment of Perfect Mind and Action before Thought are really good thinking. I will remove Dire Charge and Improved Initiative from my build for that.

[H_H_F_F]

Very thought out, and cool ideas!

I will point out that with bonus essentia giving only 1 essentia if you have no pool, I think taking an incarnum feat instead of the first instance of it is always the better choice.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Very thought out, and cool ideas!

I will point out that with bonus essentia giving only 1 essentia if you have no pool, I think taking an incarnum feat instead of the first instance of it is always the better choice.

Not if you have no pool, if you cannot shape soulmeld. Since you already can shape the cerulean sandals, you get immediately 2 essentia

[H_H_F_F]

Not if you have no pool, if you cannot shape soulmeld. Since you already can shape the cerulean sandals, you get immediately 2 essentia

Huh. I misremembered that. Very helpful to know, actually.

[liquidformat]

Well, the thing is, people will not fly at less than 60 ft above the ground if they don't want you to attack them (the reach in height, without jumping, of a Colossal creature is already 128 ft). Since the cloak and sandal both need you to start and finish your turn on solid ground, they really don't do much for the Tarasque. However, Moment of Perfect Mind and Action before Thought are really good thinking. I will remove Dire Charge and Improved Initiative from my build for that.

Very true, animal devotion might be interesting and useful if this is for an encounter. Being able to fly for a minute is pretty useful if you are a monster encounter after all. But I guess that also depends on if you are a one shot or on going BBEG type figure causing chaos throughout the world.

[Maat Mons]

The absolute highest priority for the Tarrasque should be immunity to mind-affecting effects. Otherwise, it's going to spend its entire existence as a pet to someone actually dangerous. And that's if it's lucky. If it's unlucky, it dies of old age in a frail human body after someone trades bodies with it.

That's the thing about being in possession of something other people covet. Either you need to be able to defend it from those who covet it, or you need an authority willing and able to defend it for you. For most of us, that's the government and the police. But I don't think they're going to step in to defend Big T. More likely, they're the ones after him.

Poor Tarrasque. He's just a weak, pathetic mind in a world of reality-warping consciousnesses. He has no hope of holding a claim on an awesome body. He'll just be muscled out of it in no time flat.



Right, so Deformity (Madness) ASAP. It's a Vile feat though. So he'll lose the benefit if his Int score goes below 3. Which means if his Int score goes down at all.



Binding Naberius only heals ability drain at a rate of 1 point per hour. So a Shadow still takes the Tarrasque down easily. You just need to get a more permanent measure in place within an hour of taking it down.



I can't think of any feat-based way to gain immunity to Baleful Polymorph. Being turned into a goldfish removes the Tarrasque's Regeneration. Which is a shame, because who wouldn't want a goldfish you don't have to feed? Wait, damage from starvation explicitly bypasses regeneration. I guess the Tarrasque can't really slumber for years like the description says it does, or it would starve itself into an everlasting coma.

[H_H_F_F]

The absolute highest priority for the Tarrasque should be immunity to mind-affecting effects. Otherwise, it's going to spend its entire existence as a pet to someone actually dangerous. And that's if it's lucky. If it's unlucky, it dies of old age in a frail human body after someone trades bodies with it.

That's the thing about being in possession of something other people covet. Either you need to be able to defend it from those who covet it, or you need an authority willing and able to defend it for you. For most of us, that's the government and the police. But I don't think they're going to step in to defend Big T. More likely, they're the ones after him.

Poor Tarrasque. He's just a weak, pathetic mind in a world of reality-warping consciousnesses. He has no hope of holding a claim on an awesome body. He'll just be muscled out of it in no time flat.



Right, so Deformity (Madness) ASAP. It's a Vile feat though. So he'll lose the benefit if his Int score goes below 3. Which means if his Int score goes down at all.



Binding Naberius only heals ability drain at a rate of 1 point per hour. So a Shadow still takes the Tarrasque down easily. You just need to get a more permanent measure in place within an hour of taking it down.



I can't think of any feat-based way to gain immunity to Baleful Polymorph. Being turned into a goldfish removes the Tarrasque's Regeneration. Which is a shame, because who wouldn't want a goldfish you don't have to feed? Wait, damage from starvation explicitly bypasses regeneration. I guess the Tarrasque can't really slumber for years like the description says it does, or it would starve itself into an everlasting coma.

The Tarrasque has pretty decent saves, but madness is probably still a good idea. Doesn't baleful polymorph allow for a fortitude save? The Tarrasque should have no issue with that, he's getting 40 when rolling 2.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Right, so Deformity (Madness) ASAP. It's a Vile feat though. So he'll lose the benefit if his Int score goes below 3. Which means if his Int score goes down at all.



Binding Naberius only heals ability drain at a rate of 1 point per hour. So a Shadow still takes the Tarrasque down easily. You just need to get a more permanent measure in place within an hour of taking it down.

Is there another feat that gives you immunity to mental effects? See, the problem is that the Tarasque is always of neutral alignment, so he wouldn't be able to become mad (except when he is just 5 ft too low to catch a flying opponent, of course). And I don't think you can get the Naberius ability restoring power with Bind Vestige, so this was out the window from the beginning.

[Calthropstu]

Wasn't there an absurd super tarrasque someone did altering feats and stacking templates that pumped the tarrasque's stats into the stratosphere?

found it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e&highlight=super%20tarrasque)

I also found this one that only changed feats for a less absurd result here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?273567-Improved-Tarrasque&highlight=super%20tarrasque&p=14802878#post14802878)

[Maat Mons]

No matter how good your saves are, eventually you'll roll a natural 1. Steadfast Determination does remedy that for Fort saves. But Baleful Polymorph is still an issue because unconscious creatures are considered willing targets and don't get saves.

Stripping the Tarrasque's Regeneration with Baleful Polymorph is much less expensive than using a scroll of Wish to keep him dead. It's a good option for after your pet incorporeal undead ability-drains the Tarrasque into a coma. Especially if you're worried he might have bound Naberius, and might get back up eventually. (Nevermind, you're right. Can't get that from the feat.)

And then turn the little froggy-Tarrasque into stone. Don't want to let it die, or some crazy cultist could bring it back to life. You can't turn the unconscious Tarrasque to stone directly, due to size limits of the spell. And anyway, a stone frog is a lot easier to carry around in your bag of holding than a stone Tarrasque.

[H_H_F_F]

If our main concern is ability drain, is it possibly worth it to invest 5 feats to counter it as much as possible? Binding a strongheart vest with 6 essentia to the waist will reduce all incoming ability drain by 7. That's a huge investment, but maybe it's worth it?

Is there a "cheaper" way to resist ability drain that I'm not thinking about?

[Rater202]

Sticking to the theme of monster that can't easily die" instead of giving it additional abilities, I would replace five of it's toughness feats with improved toughness, endurance, pain mastery, remain conscious, and roll with it.

+51 HP, +2 unbeatable DR that stacks with the DR epic you already have, being able to keep moving or attacking when you should be unconscious, and getting a tangible buff to strength every time you take a certain amount of damage until the end of the encounter is a much more efficient use of feats than +18 hp.

It's not that big of a buff compared to the base chassis, but it's a start.

[Thurbane]

Second comment, not being a dragon it isn't subject to getting epic feats without class levels...

That is very debatable. If true, 3/4 of the monsters in ELH shouldn't have epic feats.

Here's what I posted in a recent thread on the topic:



If it's 21+ HD, it can take epic feats.

Correct.

Can't find the precise citation right now, but for creatures with no class level, character level = HD. Otherwise none of the Monsters in the Epic Level Handbook would qualify for the epic feats in their stat blocks.


Effective character level isn't the same thing as hit dice.

Now THAT I can give you a citation for:


effective character level

This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an effective character level (ECL) of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.
Source: MM, MM3

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_effectivecharacterlevel&alpha=E


What I meant was, ECL is still a character level, not just hit dice. I meant that having a certain number of hit dice on its own doesn't necessarily qualify you for things that a particular number of character levels do (as far as I've ever seen, if you manage to find the other citation I'd still be very interested to see it).

For the purposes of this thread it's a moot point though, as I said a few posts ago it appears monsters can take epic feats at 21HD regardless of their CR. Seems insane to me, but it appears that's how it is.


Epic Level Handbook Pg. 25, Monsters as Epic Characters sidebar:

"In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use the effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5, who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and capable to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites"

If you combine the above from ELH with the glossary definition of ECL, it seems pretty iron clad creatures with 21 or more HD can take epic feats.

As an aside, just curious: would you allow a creatures with 5HD, and no class levels, to take the Least Legacy feat, since one of the prereqs is "Character Level 5th"? Would a creature with 6HD and no class levels be allowed to take the Leadership feat?

[Biggus]

The rock hurling line is very nice thinking!

Sadly I can't claim credit for it, I saw it online somewhere and wrote it down but failed to record where, or who came up with it.


Large and in Charge (Draconomicon) with Combat Reflexes becomes quite literally "You can't approach closer than 20 ft if I do not allow you. Ever."

There are a fair few spells and items which would allow you to get round that, but still nice thinking. Would be a major headache for any melee specialist who didn't have a defence prepared for it.


And in epic feats, Improved Initiative doesn't hurt, Dire Charge is really good when you have so many natural weapons, but everything else the Tarasque would love (Deflection, Epic Speed, Distant Shot if you go Rock Hurling) requires Dexterity, so that's bad.

Good call on Dire Charge. About the only other epic feat I can think of which might be worth considering is Superior Initiative.


Hurling feats: Rock Hurling, Improved Rock Hurling, Brutal Throw, Power Throw. (I don't think, PB shot/ Far shot are necessary here) (4 feats)


The reason for Far Shot is that without it, the range of rock hurling is only 400ft, which means that a 1st-level caster can use long-range spells on it while staying out of range. The OP mentioned low-level casters being able to attack it with impunity; this means they have to be at least level 11 to do so.

Perhaps more importantly, if the range is only 400ft a level 11+ caster can use medium-range spells from safety with a cheap Rod of Enlarge Spell, which greatly opens up their attack options.

Also, at 400ft archers only take a -6 penalty to attack with a composite longbow, but at 800ft this increases to -14 unless they've got Far Shot or similar themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------

Other possibilities for feats:

Steadfast Determination (PHB2): requires Endurance, but gives +10 to its Will save, thus going a long way to plugging up one of its main weaknesses. Maybe add Epic Will too if you want to drive the point home. Also means you don't automatically fail Fortitude saves on a natural 1.

Luck feats can provide some defence against save-or-suck effects, and being able to reroll initiative is always handy.

[Darg]

Spellfire Wielder seems like a nice feat to take. If you allow for flaws you could even get flight with dragontouched and dragon wings feat (dragons really will screw anything that moves huh?) and then getting improved dragon wings.

Fey/fiendish heritage feats can be really nice cards up one's sleeve. Fiendish legacy having teleport self as an SLA can be quite a surprise for the party when they aren't expecting the most non-magical creature to actually use magic.

Indomitable Will combined with steadfast determination is extremely valuable.

[Morty_Jhones]

I love how all thes discushions on attacking the tarrasque , say to fly over the thing and then zap downwards... ignoring the fact that its immume to such tatics. the rulles for its Carapace Armour says it blocks and reflets spells that hit it, hence its SR ond reflect chance. and since your over it the only thing you can hit is its carapace..........

personaly for feat change I would give it Mosterus Quake.

with its Str 45 abnd colosal size it easly qualifies.
giving it a 300ft charge and then a 100ft Aoe Sonic attack that can easly knock down a fortress.

[H_H_F_F]

I love how all thes discushions on attacking the tarrasque , say to fly over the thing and then zap downwards... ignoring the fact that its immume to such tatics. the rulles for its Carapace Armour says it blocks and reflets spells that hit it, hence its SR ond reflect chance. and since your over it the only thing you can hit is its carapace..........

personaly for feat change I would give it Mosterus Quake.

with its Str 45 abnd colosal size it easly qualifies.
giving it a 300ft charge and then a 100ft Aoe Sonic attack that can easly knock down a fortress.

Reread th ability. Not all spells, far from it. Everything mentioned in this thread so far can get past the Tarrasque's defences.

[Albions_Angel]

So, 2 paths are emerging.


The Tarrasque as an earthy monster thats just naturally tough path
The Tarrasque as a stat block and anything goes to make it effective vs PCs path



Both are good paths. Personally, I am looking at this thread with interest because I would want to drop a Tarrasque into my world as an ever present threat, but even inexperienced players know the near-meme of "just fly". And personally, I am more interested in path 1. To me, the Tarrasque is just a big Starcraft Ultralisk so items, soulmelds, "smart" feats, they dont do it for me.

I love the rock hurler idea:
Rock Hurling and Improved RH (RoS), Brutal Throw and Power Throw (CAdv) and PB Shot and Far Shot

Toughness 1 -> Rock Hurling (RoS)
Toughness 2 -> Improved Rock Hurling (RoS)
Toughness 3 -> Brutal Throw (CAd)
Toughness 4 -> Power Throw (CAd)
Toughness 5 -> Point Blank Shot (PhB)
Toughness 6 -> Far Shot (PhB)

That leaves Alertness, Dodge, and Iron Will as feats to replace.

One of them should be replaced with Large and In Charge (Draconomicon) for sure. You get hit by the Tarrasque while its swinging around madly? You go flying.

I wonder, is there a feat for knocking things out of the air? That feels like a feat the designers would have made. And the Tarrasque should absolutely have it

I would also love to see the Tarrasque with a burrow speed. Is there a feat that gives burrow? It seems fairly thematic that if gnats are buzzing around its head, and they are fast enough to evade its rocks, the Tarrasque, a creature that buries itself after eating enough, would simply dig in and tunnel its way to wherever instead.

Honestly, at this point, ideas are beginning to spark and I might just refactor the Tarrasque with homebrew. Make it immune to mind-affecting by virtue of its singular driving force: an all consuming hunger. The Tarrasque cares not for illusions, compulsions or demands. It cares only for the hunger. Further, any attempt to bodyswap would only serve to put a Tarrasque mind in a humanoid body, while whoever is going the other way suddenly contends with a metabolism driving it to consume everything. Congratulations, you failed to stop the Tarrasque, and now one of your party members things they are a Tarrasque too, all be it an easily sated one.

And its already immune to energy drain and stat damage, so stat drain immunity is certainly on the cards.

Bumping its movement speed too. Especially if its given burrow, I would expect burrow to be slow and no matter how cumbersome the Tarrasque is, a single step will cover a good 30 feet. Throw in that the listed speed is supposed to be its fighting speed, and I would say its speed 60. A creature like that covering 60 miles a day seems reasonable, assuming it failed to find anything to eat in those 60 miles (clearly it slows down when it reaches a forest or a town). But 30 up from 20 also seems like a good move. I suppose its speed 20 because the idea is that a party fighting it wont have speed enhancers, and you have to allow everyone to move and attack it every round, given its regen.

None of these changes would stop optimised parties, but they do remove some of the cheese solutions (like Madness Tarrasquekiller, or level 3 wizards with acid wands and a one off high level cleric on hand).

I almost feel like these should be dealt with outside of the feats. They are fundamental flaws in the chassis, while the feats should enhance that chassis and be available for swapping out. The Tarrasque does not cease to be a Tarrasque without its cleave or its combat reflexes. But it does cease to be a Tarrasque without its Carapace.

[H_H_F_F]

In real use, the Tarrasque should definetly be fixed with more than feats, and your fixes seem to be well thought out. Energy drain, for instance, is an obvious example of unintentional neglect in my opinion.

This thread was meant less as a practical guide for DMs and more a thought expiriment. For real use, I agree templates/homebrew are the appropriate solution (and the one I historically used).

[Beni-Kujaku]

One of them should be replaced with Large and In Charge (Draconomicon) for sure. You get hit by the Tarrasque while its swinging around madly? You go flying.

I wonder, is there a feat for knocking things out of the air? That feels like a feat the designers would have made. And the Tarrasque should absolutely have it

I would also love to see the Tarrasque with a burrow speed. Is there a feat that gives burrow?

And its already immune to energy drain and stat damage, so stat drain immunity is certainly on the cards.



I almost feel like these should be dealt with outside of the feats. They are fundamental flaws in the chassis, while the feats should enhance that chassis and be available for swapping out. The Tarrasque does not cease to be a Tarrasque without its cleave or its combat reflexes. But it does cease to be a Tarrasque without its Carapace.

I agree that it should be dealt with outside of feats (even though this is not quite what we're looking for here), there are just too many things that incapacitate or kill you instantly in D&D to be immune to all of them without items.

About the other questions:
No, afaik, there is no feat giving burrow speed, not even Shape Soulmeld, Bind Vestige or Martial Stance. It is the only movement speed that aberration feats can't give. It really is an unpopular type of speed.

Also, I'm pretty sure Prehensile Tail is still necessary for rock hurling, he's not going to throw rocks with his mouth, so that's two more feats down the drain.

[H_H_F_F]

Also, I'm pretty sure Prehensile Tail is still necessary for rock hurling, he's not going to throw rocks with his mouth, so that's two more feats down the drain.

It has hands... sort of.

[Albions_Angel]

Also, I'm pretty sure Prehensile Tail is still necessary for rock hurling, he's not going to throw rocks with his mouth, so that's two more feats down the drain.

It absolutely has hands, but it also has horns. Ever played monster hunter? There is more than 1 monster that scoops up boulders and other environmental weapons and flings them at you with its horns. We are not talking precise aim here. Its literally digging up the ground and flinging it at flying opponents - the dice roll is just for the one rock in the spray that stands a chance of hitting.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It absolutely has hands, but it also has horns. Ever played monster hunter? There is more than 1 monster that scoops up boulders and other environmental weapons and flings them at you with its horns. We are not talking precise aim here. Its literally digging up the ground and flinging it at flying opponents - the dice roll is just for the one rock in the spray that stands a chance of hitting.

By fluff, that might fly (get it?), and that would be a really cool ability to give the Tarasque, even though it would probably be more of a Reflex for half than an attack roll.

By RAW... I seriously doubt it. It doesn't have opposing thumbs in any official art for 3.x or Pathfinder, or even 1st edition. It has in the Monster Manual for 5th edition, though, 5 fingers with an opposing thumb, and is explicitly shown grabbing a horse... But that's one more than it had for its whole history! And considering 5th edition seems to have removed its regeneration altogether (first: what? Wasn't it its most defining characteristic?), I'm not that inclined to take it as a canon thing it has. Well, DM rulings, I guess.

[Tzardok]

By fluff, that might fly (get it?), and that would be a really cool ability to give the Tarasque, even though it would probably be more of a Reflex for half than an attack roll.

By RAW... I seriously doubt it. It doesn't have opposing thumbs in any official art for 3.x or Pathfinder, or even 1st edition. It has in the Monster Manual for 5th edition, though, 5 fingers with an opposing thumb, and is explicitly shown grabbing a horse... But that's one more than it had for its whole history! And considering 5th edition seems to have removed its regeneration altogether (first: what? Wasn't it its most defining characteristic?), I'm not that inclined to take it as a canon thing it has. Well, DM rulings, I guess.

I think the picture of the Tarrasque in the 3.5 Monster Manual has sufficiently hand-like foreclaws to allow that. *shrug*

[liquidformat]

It has hands... sort of.
It seems to have quite large and pretty functional looking hands to me.

[H_H_F_F]

It seems to have quite large and pretty functional looking hands to me.

I can't see opposable thumbs. I do think it should be fine for rock hurling.

[liquidformat]

I can't see opposable thumbs. I do think it should be fine for rock hurling.

You don't need apposable thumbs to throw a rock you need them for fine manipulation. If a raptor can open a door in Jurassic Park a Tarrasque should have no problem throwing a rock!

[Biggus]

In real use, the Tarrasque should definetly be fixed with more than feats, and your fixes seem to be well thought out. Energy drain, for instance, is an obvious example of unintentional neglect in my opinion.

This thread was meant less as a practical guide for DMs and more a thought expiriment. For real use, I agree templates/homebrew are the appropriate solution (and the one I historically used).

It seems from the thread so far that it's possible to fix or at least ameliorate most of its issues with feats. Energy drain seems to be the most difficult one, I spent quite a while yesterday looking for something to protect against it in less than 7 feats and couldn't find anything.

But personally, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for powerful monsters to have one weakness (it's a very common trope in fantasy and mythology). If a Wizard summons an allip in the first round of combat, I think the DM's perfectly within their rights to ask them how their character knows to do that, given that there's only one of it. Almost every monster is easily defeatable if you allow that kind of blatant metagaming.

[Maat Mons]

Now that I think about it, if you're up against something that looks like a big dumb brute, and it doesn't look like an Undead or a Construct, isn't summoning an Allip usually going to be a good move? Do you even have to know what exactly it is?

[Biggus]

Now that I think about it, if you're up against something that looks like a big dumb brute, and it doesn't look like an Undead or a Construct, isn't summoning an Allip usually going to be a good move? Do you even have to know what exactly it is?

If that's the Wizard's standard tactic against big dumb brutes, then fair enough. If they "just so happen" to use it straight away against the Tarrasque despite rarely/never using it before, not so much.

[Darg]

Energy drain seems to be the most difficult one, I spent quite a while yesterday looking for something to protect against it in less than 7 feats and couldn't find anything.

Open Heart Chakra feat and Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). Two feats.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Open Heart Chakra feat and Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). Two feats.

Plus at least 3 Bonus Essentia. You're not going to be immune to anything with only -1.

[Darg]

Plus at least 3 Bonus Essentia. You're not going to be immune to anything with only -1.

You bind it to your heart chakra and gain immunity to energy drain attacks and death effects. No essentia is necessary to shape and bind soulmelds. You are probably thinking of the waist bind which reduces ability drain by the amount the shaping does.

[SangoProduction]

Spheres of Power.
Give it Basic Magical Training feat and start with Life sphere. Then take Advanced Magical Training (fudging it slightly so that HD counts as non-casting class level) so that it's a caster level of half its HD.
The Regeneration drawback (can only cast on self) to get an extra talent to spend on Restore Spirit, which cures all ability damage, as well as (all ability drain from 1 ability score). Or it might restore (all ability damage or ability drain) from 1 attribute. Depend on reading. Either way that prevents the most common method of locking down the beast.

If you want it to be really hard to even hurt by hit point damage, you can also give it the Studied Healing feat, which raises its heal sphere CL by half its heal ranks (or in other words, it's now a full Life sphere caster). That means each heal with just 3 feats is 1d8 + 96 points.

Which is simply not enough if it's giving up its attacks. So give it Self-Renewal for another Extra Magical Talent, so it can cast as a swift action.


Now you've got 2 feats left.

Extra Magical Talent for Telekinesis Sphere. And Extra Magical Talent for Flight talent under telekinesis sphere, for a perfect flight speed of 45, eliminating most of its weakness to flight.
Granted, even at HD 48, it's going to need a bit of fudging to be able to lift itself. Because Telekinesis sphere just sucks.
But give it a Telekinesis implement as a crown. And now, the PCs can eliminate its flight by attacking the crown, and that'd be pretty interesting.


If you want to avoid fudging, and have a better result, instead of Telekinesis sphere, you pick up Alteration sphere.

Dedicated Elemental Transformation (Air) grants 160 ft perfect flight as a trait, as it just grows rocket boosters from its back, which are faster than even its rush. And you still have a feat left
Not to mention the rest of the traits available for a CL 24 alteration caster. Just add on some more tentacles and claws and stuff.

You could pick Bestial Reflexes talent from Alteration sphere to have another trait be Pounce.
Or you could just pick up Break Enchantment from Life sphere so that you can remove all magic that has a duration from yourself. And you get to do that after the spell resistance and reflection...which probably means that's not the type of thing you need to protect against. But hey. Make those tactics even more futile.

[Albions_Angel]

Ok, I am super confused at this point. The SRD has the Tarrasque down as being ALREADY immune to energy drain. Its also immune to ability DAMAGE, but not ability DRAIN. So its ABILITY DRAIN we care about, not energy drain.

Was that an FAQ? Is the book Tarrasque not immune to Energy Drain?

[Thurbane]

Ok, I am super confused at this point. The SRD has the Tarrasque down as being ALREADY immune to energy drain. Its also immune to ability DAMAGE, but not ability DRAIN. So its ABILITY DRAIN we care about, not energy drain.

Was that an FAQ? Is the book Tarrasque not immune to Energy Drain?

You are correct:


Immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage,

I checked the PF1 version, and it is similarly immune, with some extras thrown in:


Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph

[Beni-Kujaku]

Ok, I am super confused at this point. The SRD has the Tarrasque down as being ALREADY immune to energy drain. Its also immune to ability DAMAGE, but not ability DRAIN. So its ABILITY DRAIN we care about, not energy drain.

Was that an FAQ? Is the book Tarrasque not immune to Energy Drain?

That's partially my bad. Biggus was confused and said Energy Drain was hard to protect from instead of ability drain. Darg answered litterally by saying that 2 feats were enough to protect from Energy Drain (that is true, but not quite what we're looking for here). I then thought that Darg was talking about Ability Drain and said that to protect from Ability Drain, you needed to put essentia in your Strongheart Vest. So there was a quiproquo, and we still don't know how to give the Tarasque immunity to Ability Drain in a reasonable number of feats.



Spheres of Power.


That was very interesting, really, and Spheres of Power can give you a whole lot of new options, but this is another system altogether, and thought for Pathfinder much more than 3.5. I don't think that's what the OP was looking for. For example, if we go Pathfinder, the whole "Rock hurling" becomes meaningless, since the PF Tarasque has spines that it can launch like a Manticor. Going there would mean rethink everything from the start, with a creature that already has a ranged attack, 40ft movement speed, and is already immune to ability drain and mental effects. There would not really be a need for new feats there. I believe the Pathfinder Tarasque already has everything to be not optimized, but to be a good end-game, world destroying machine.

[Biggus]

That's partially my bad. Biggus was confused and said Energy Drain was hard to protect from instead of ability drain. Darg answered litterally by saying that 2 feats were enough to protect from Energy Drain (that is true, but not quite what we're looking for here). I then thought that Darg was talking about Ability Drain and said that to protect from Ability Drain, you needed to put essentia in your Strongheart Vest. So there was a quiproquo, and we still don't know how to give the Tarasque immunity to Ability Drain in a reasonable number of feats.


Oh yeah, I didn't notice H_H_F_F had typed energy drain instead of ability drain and copied it into my post, d'oh (he said ability drain in his previous post).

And yes, there doesn't seem to be any way to protect against it barring 7 not-very-thematic feats.

[H_H_F_F]

Oh yeah, I didn't notice H_H_F_F had typed energy drain instead of ability drain and copied it into my post, d'oh (he said ability drain in his previous post).

Yeah, my bad.


And yes, there doesn't seem to be any way to protect against it barring 7 not-very-thematic feats.

Well...


If our main concern is ability drain, is it possibly worth it to invest 5 feats to counter it as much as possible? Binding a strongheart vest with 6 essentia to the waist will reduce all incoming ability drain by 7. That's a huge investment, but maybe it's worth it?

Is there a "cheaper" way to resist ability drain that I'm not thinking about?

My calculation says 5 feats, unless you have a way to make it completely immune at 7?

[Eldan]

Isn't there any way to give the Tarrasque the ability to hit incorporeal targets? Then it can just defend itself against Allips et al the normal way.

I suppose you could give it Wild Talent and Ghost Attack.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Isn't there any way to give the Tarrasque the ability to hit incorporeal targets? Then it can just defend itself against Allips et al the normal way.

I suppose you could give it Wild Talent and Ghost Attack.

I'm not even sure it is necessary. The Tarasque's natural weapons are considered Epic. Which means they are also considered magical, aren't they? So they would deal damage 50% of the time to an allip. Am I confused or is the allip thing just a vestige of 3rd edition when the Tarasque's weapons didn't count as Epic, that everybody thinks is still applicable to 3.5?




My calculation says 5 feats, unless you have a way to make it completely immune at 7?

I have a way to be completely immune for 4 and a whole lot of confusing writing and rule-lawyerism. Bind Vestige doesn't allow a binder to have it but still references Expel Vestige, which implies that Bind Vestige counts as the Soul Binding class feature for prerequisite. Which means you can take Improved Binding. With Practiced Binder, you can now bind 4th level vestiges, including Tenebrous. But Tenebrous is (obviously) not in the Bind Vestige table, which means (bear with me here) that you are not restricted on the power that you can choose from him. So you can choose Rebuke Undead 1/5 rounds. Then you take Sacred Vitality which allows you to expend a Rebuke attempt to be immune to Ability Drain for 1 minute. You do that once every minute and you are completely immune to ability drain for 4 feats (Bind Vestige, Improved Binding, Practiced Binder, Sacred Vitality) and a standard action once per minute. Please don't throw books at me.

[Biggus]

My calculation says 5 feats, unless you have a way to make it completely immune at 7?

Sorry, misremembered your post, I meant 5. Not having a good day, apologies for the confusion.


Isn't there any way to give the Tarrasque the ability to hit incorporeal targets? Then it can just defend itself against Allips et al the normal way.

I suppose you could give it Wild Talent and Ghost Attack.

Doesn't help that much, with Summon Undead V you can summon 2 Allips, each of which acts immediately and has a 90% chance to hit and do 1d4 Wisdom drain. Even if the Tarrasque destroys them both on its turn, you only have to cast the spell 3 or 4 rounds in a row on average before it reaches Wis 0.

[liquidformat]

Why don't we just give the Tarrasque head lasers? Everything deserves a hot meal!

[Thurbane]

If we assume the Tarrasque qualifies for epic feats (I believe it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25005695&postcount=22)), you could take Epic Destiny (Demigod) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428): gives the ability to use Greater Restoration 1/day as an immediate action.

Not a great fit for the Tarrasque fluff wise though, and only removes ability damage, doesn't prevent new ability damage.

[H_H_F_F]

If we assume the Tarrasque qualifies for epic feats (I believe it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25005695&postcount=22)), you could take Epic Destiny (Demigod) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428): gives the ability to use Greater Restoration 1/day as an immediate action.

Not a great fit for the Tarrasque fluff wise though, and only removes ability damage, doesn't prevent new ability damage.

I actually think Demigod is very fitting for the fluff. A primal force unto its own, indestructable and civilization ending (in theory). On the crunch size it leans very heavily towards "benevolent god of mercy" kind of demigod, but the fluff works great - powerful enough to claim a place in the cosmic order.

I was going to link This (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24809452&postcount=43) as an example of the idea of a monsterous demigod done right, and then realized who I was talking to.

[liquidformat]

If we assume the Tarrasque qualifies for epic feats (I believe it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25005695&postcount=22)), you could take Epic Destiny (Demigod) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428): gives the ability to use Greater Restoration 1/day as an immediate action.

Not a great fit for the Tarrasque fluff wise though, and only removes ability damage, doesn't prevent new ability damage.

I think you are missing the even more powerful ability to cast miracle 1/day which could allow the Tarrasque to shore up holes in its defenses. Also it does seem reasonable that people would worship Tarrasque as a god/demigod incarnate of destruction or death or something similar.

[Efrate]

By RAW iirc its manufactured magic weapons to hit incorporeal. So does not matter if its natural epic or whatever its not manufactured so a 100000 hd epic beatstick that uses natural weapon is helpless versus the allip.

Plus even if it can hit, it does not take many allip hits to drop it. Though some random god of destruction could commission some claw sheaths of riverine or somesuch for it to half shore that up.

Are there some martial studies that fix it up? It has enough HD that it qualifies for any provided it meets prereqs.

[Darg]

By RAW iirc its manufactured magic weapons to hit incorporeal. So does not matter if its natural epic or whatever its not manufactured so a 100000 hd epic beatstick that uses natural weapon is helpless versus the allip.

Plus even if it can hit, it does not take many allip hits to drop it. Though some random god of destruction could commission some claw sheaths of riverine or somesuch for it to half shore that up.

Are there some martial studies that fix it up? It has enough HD that it qualifies for any provided it meets prereqs.

Shape Soulmeld (Crystal Helm) and Open Least Chakra (crown). Bind it to your crown and you strike incorporeal creatures normally.

Shape Soulmeld (Air Step Sandals) and Open Least Chakra (feet). Bind it to feet and you gain 24hr perfect flight.

[Biggus]

By RAW iirc its manufactured magic weapons to hit incorporeal. So does not matter if its natural epic or whatever its not manufactured so a 100000 hd epic beatstick that uses natural weapon is helpless versus the allip.


No, it doesn't have to be manufactured weapons:


can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons

[Maat Mons]

Though I've always found it unclear if creatures who have natural weapons which "are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" are considered "creatures that strike as magic weapons."

I mean, an incorporeal creature's ability to ignore damage from nonmagical sources isn't damage reduction. So it's not a thing that the Tarrasque's attacks count as magic for. So big T doesn't "strike as a magic weapon," at least as far as incorporeality is concerned.

But if monsters that overcome DR/magic don't "strike as magic weapons," what the heck does?

[Albions_Angel]

Though I've always found it unclear if creatures who have natural weapons which "are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" are considered "creatures that strike as magic weapons."

I mean, an incorporeal creature's ability to ignore damage from nonmagical sources isn't damage reduction. So it's not a thing that the Tarrasque's attacks count as magic for. So big T doesn't "strike as a magic weapon," at least as far as incorporeality is concerned.

But if monsters that overcome DR/magic don't "strike as magic weapons," what the heck does?

Def feels like a gap in the RAW (rather than a definitive ruling) but RAI I think is clear. It SHOULD affect incorporeal creatures 50% of the time. Actually, the tarrasque's weapons count as Epic, do Epic weapons hit any better than magical? I never had an opportunity to find out.

Whats interesting is Magic Fang. At no point does the spell say that the target's natural weapons count as magical. However, it DOES give an Enhancement bonus. The section on magic weapons says that magic weapons are weapons with an enhancement bonus between +1 and +5. The next sentence says that this bonus applies to both attack and damage.

Now, ok, stretching things here, but it is possible to read those 2 sentences in 2 different ways:


The 2 sentences are both conditons - to be magical, a weapon must have an enhancement bonus between +1 and +5, AND the enhancement bonus must count towards both attack and damage
Only the first sentence is a condition, the second is a consequence - weapons are magical if they have an enhancement bonus. Once magical, that bonus effects both attack and damage.



The second reading leads to a weird recursive situation where masterwork weapons do not apply their bonus to damage, but simply having the bonus means they are magical, so they must apply that bonus to damage. Which is clearly wrong. We KNOW MW weapons are not magical. So this leads to a third reading:

3. Magical weapons simply ARE - their enhancement bonus to attack and damage is a consequence of them being magical weapons, not the other way round (yes, this is a stupid reading, but hold on).

If reading 3 is true, then not all things with enhancements to both attack and damage count as magic weapons. And Magic Fang doesnt explicitly call out the natural weapon as magical. And if THATS true, then magic fang doesnt allow the target to hit incorporeal creatures. But the primary use of Magic Fang at low levels is to allow the Druid's Animal Companion to deal with Incorporeal foes.

So if you stick to RAW, then a very twisted (and possible insane, judging by these readings of the rules) DM could claim that Magic Fang does not work on Shadows. Or even that it can overcome DR/magic. Which is clearly nuts.

RAI is clearly that Magic Fang DOES make the attack magical. I would argue that for similar reasons, Magic and Epic natural weapons, natural or otherwise, also hit incorporeal attacks and are, defacto, magical.

[Eldan]

Sorry, misremembered your post, I meant 5. Not having a good day, apologies for the confusion.



Doesn't help that much, with Summon Undead V you can summon 2 Allips, each of which acts immediately and has a 90% chance to hit and do 1d4 Wisdom drain. Even if the Tarrasque destroys them both on its turn, you only have to cast the spell 3 or 4 rounds in a row on average before it reaches Wis 0.

Hmmm… It has very long reach, so some kind of AoO shennanigans… though that doesn't help if the Allips are summoned right next to it.

[Eldan]

If we assume the Tarrasque qualifies for epic feats (I believe it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25005695&postcount=22)), you could take Epic Destiny (Demigod) (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428): gives the ability to use Greater Restoration 1/day as an immediate action.

Not a great fit for the Tarrasque fluff wise though, and only removes ability damage, doesn't prevent new ability damage.

Shame Blade of the Apocalypse doesn't really offer the Tarrasque anything new, that entire path is About making any character into a mini-Tarrasque.

[liquidformat]

Though I've always found it unclear if creatures who have natural weapons which "are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" are considered "creatures that strike as magic weapons."

I mean, an incorporeal creature's ability to ignore damage from nonmagical sources isn't damage reduction. So it's not a thing that the Tarrasque's attacks count as magic for. So big T doesn't "strike as a magic weapon," at least as far as incorporeality is concerned.

But if monsters that overcome DR/magic don't "strike as magic weapons," what the heck does?

stuff on magic weapons and DR....

Yeah once again we prove that WotC did do the best job at creating clear concise RAW. Honestly I think it was a big mistake that 3.5 nerfed the DR rules they were much better when it not only said magic but also what bonus you needed to over come said DR. back in 3.0 it was quite clear that Epic was in fact magic it was just +>5 enhancement needed to overcome the DR.

The way I have always thought of things is that some creatures are naturally imbued with magic it is part of their being and enhances and strengthens them in every way. So when you attack them you have to over come that magic they have flowing in them to damage them. At the same time that magic imbues their attacks as well, in this case it seems pretty straight forward that their natural attacks would also effect ghosts even if only slightly.

I also think that is a fairly good RAI interpretation.

Comically before the rules lawyering in this thread I had always thought RAW says creatures with DR/magic have their natural weapons treated as magic for overcoming magic, since they are treated as magic they also work against incorporeal creatures. Honestly I think sometimes we could use a bit less rules lawyering silliness sure it might make for interesting debate but 9 out of 10 times the rules lawyering ends up with very dysfunctional 'RAW' interpretations and it is my experience if your 'RAW' interpretation is dysfunctional it is wrong.

[Darg]

Hmmm… It has very long reach, so some kind of AoO shennanigans… though that doesn't help if the Allips are summoned right next to it.

Yeah, the only real way to defend against it is to spend 4 feats: shape soulmeld (strongheart vest), open greater chakra (waist), bonus essentia, + any feat that grants at least one essentia. Add in crystal helm and you can fight back. Add in airstep sandles and you can chase them into the air. 8 feats and a lot of weaknesses are overcome. Incarnum is extremely versatile, especially when you start with so many feats.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Comically before the rules lawyering in this thread I had always thought RAW says creatures with DR/magic have their natural weapons treated as magic for overcoming magic, since they are treated as magic they also work against incorporeal creatures.

"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." (from D20SRD)

So you were right that their natural weapons are treated as magic. Of course, the second part of the sentence is more unclear.

[Thurbane]

Of course, if the Tarrasque has an allied creature capable of casting Scintillating Scales on it...those Allips suddenly need a natural 20 to hit. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

No way to get your choice of second level spell as an SLA once per day or something? That would solve the scintillating scales problem.

[Darg]

It's still a 1 in 20 chance to hit. Ability drain is permanent. It would be better to remove the chance entirely. Luckily, there is a way to do that.

[Eldan]

Sure, but being basically immune to touch effects is useful all by its own.

[Kitsuneymg]

No way to get your choice of second level spell as an SLA once per day or something? That would solve the scintillating scales problem.

Do hit dice count as character levels for feat prereqs? Because leadership solves a lot of problems. Be followed around by your very own insane cleric or wizard.

[Lapak]

Do hit dice count as character levels for feat prereqs? Because leadership solves a lot of problems. Be followed around by your very own insane cleric or wizard.
I know this falls outside of just messing with feats, but I kind of love this idea except I think it fits better as a Thrallherd cult. Add a level of Wilder, throw a couple of feats at Practiced Manifester and Expanded Knowledge, a level of Thrallherd, and you have a built-in apocalypse cult to go with your kaiju.

It also feels appropriate that the Tarrasque should draw from the well of every power-source a bit - I like the Incarnum and Martial Study feats called out in this thread, for example.

[Kitsuneymg]

I know this falls outside of just messing with feats, but I kind of love this idea except I think it fits better as a Thrallherd cult. Add a level of Wilder, throw a couple of feats at Practiced Manifester and Expanded Knowledge, a level of Thrallherd, and you have a built-in apocalypse cult to go with your kaiju.

It also feels appropriate that the Tarrasque should draw from the well of every power-source a bit - I like the Incarnum and Martial Study feats called out in this thread, for example.

I mean. With epic leadership, you’re looking at a 30th level cohort and 2000 level 1 followers. That works out to 200 level 2, 100 level 3, 50 level 4, 25 level 5, 13 level 6, 7 level 7, 4 level 8, 2 level 9, and 1 level 10 followers. That’s a cult all by itself. That cohort could do wiz 10/cleric 10/mystic theurge 10 and dedicate their spell list to defense and utility only, and still be an insane addition

[AlanBruce]

I am certain many here have come, over the years, with a myriad of rule abiding and yet questionable ways of dealing with such an iconic monster.

Here's the thing, which a lot will disagree on: lore trumps numbers.

This is a unique world ending force of nature, with origins purposefully left vague. It's not a race you can make builds out of. It's not a common critter you can slap templates on it to make it better numerically. It's the Tarrasque, meant to be the focus sometimes, of entire campaigns. I do believe that D&D made a huge mistake by statting this thing and thus, riling players into killing it, as per the old and very groan inducing adage.

I would have the iconic beast be the center of a campaign, as mentioned earlier. But not to engage it in battle, but to prevent its awakening. And what happens if it awakens? Game over. Sure, many players will come up with the overpowered combos and builds and 100+ books to entitle and back up those builds, but as a DM, I would simply say "it doesn't work, what do you do?""

There is nothing wrong with humbling PCs now and then. Regardless of their power level.

[Elves]

I would have the iconic beast be the center of a campaign, as mentioned earlier. But not to engage it in battle, but to prevent its awakening. And what happens if it awakens? Game over. Sure, many players will come up with the overpowered combos and builds and 100+ books to entitle and back up those builds, but as a DM, I would simply say "it doesn't work, what do you do?"

Sounds like you should stat it up as an elder evil with the book version as its aspect.

[AlanBruce]

Sounds like you should stat it up as an elder evil with the book version as its aspect.

That's the thing: I wouldn't even bother giving it stats. Campaign wise, the PCs would learn about this creature from ages past. Know that it ends the world (or a large portion of it, at least), and then it fades away for who knows how long before the cycle repeats. Introduce groups that can be engaged by the party and who have as their agenda to wake him up for who knows what reasons. Foil their plans and call it a day. But always leave the numerical and statistical aspects of the tarrasque unknown.

[Asmotherion]

One question and one comment, How are you killing the tarrasque with just acid arrow wands, don't you need wish or miracle to actually kill it?

Second comment, not being a dragon it isn't subject to getting epic feats without class levels...

Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Self-recycling Candles of Invocation. Summon an Efereeti: 1st wish (Your actual wish), 2nd wish (An other candle of Invocation) 3rd wish (Whatever the Efereeti wants, so that it leaves you alone).

Get yours today at your local MagicMart for a steal: Just 8400 gp, or just bellow a 5th level PC's Wealth by level. Since Wealth by level is usually the low end, it's totally purchasable as early as 3rd level with a good enough proffession skill.

[Thurbane]

I mean. With epic leadership, you’re looking at a 30th level cohort and 2000 level 1 followers. That works out to 200 level 2, 100 level 3, 50 level 4, 25 level 5, 13 level 6, 7 level 7, 4 level 8, 2 level 9, and 1 level 10 followers. That’s a cult all by itself. That cohort could do wiz 10/cleric 10/mystic theurge 10 and dedicate their spell list to defense and utility only, and still be an insane addition

Wasn't there a Dragon mag PrC that was based on worshiping the Tarrasque?

[H_H_F_F]

I am certain many here have come, over the years, with a myriad of rule abiding and yet questionable ways of dealing with such an iconic monster.

Here's the thing, which a lot will disagree on: lore trumps numbers.

This is a unique world ending force of nature, with origins purposefully left vague. It's not a race you can make builds out of. It's not a common critter you can slap templates on it to make it better numerically. It's the Tarrasque, meant to be the focus sometimes, of entire campaigns. I do believe that D&D made a huge mistake by statting this thing and thus, riling players into killing it, as per the old and very groan inducing adage.

I would have the iconic beast be the center of a campaign, as mentioned earlier. But not to engage it in battle, but to prevent its awakening. And what happens if it awakens? Game over. Sure, many players will come up with the overpowered combos and builds and 100+ books to entitle and back up those builds, but as a DM, I would simply say "it doesn't work, what do you do?""

There is nothing wrong with humbling PCs now and then. Regardless of their power level.

Seems like you're looking for an existential horror, a real apocalyptic threat. I've done that in campaigns, I very recently judged a villainous competition, in which I said one of the dishes' fluff isn't complemented by having crunch.

I'm not sure that's what the Tarrasqe was meant to be. Seems to me like it was meant to be the most terrible foe to be slain, something dealt with by only the most valiant and powerful heroes. Not the most terrible threat, but the most glorious achievement.

If I was going for a different feel with the Tarrasque, then yes, I wouldn't stat it.

[Tzardok]

Wasn't there a Dragon mag PrC that was based on worshiping the Tarrasque?

Yup. Dragon #296, I think.

[smetzger]

Of course, if the Tarrasque has an allied creature capable of casting Scintillating Scales on it...those Allips suddenly need a natural 20 to hit. :smalltongue:

Easier than that... Protection from evil/good

[Kitsuneymg]

I am certain many here have come, over the years, with a myriad of rule abiding and yet questionable ways of dealing with such an iconic monster.

Here's the thing, which a lot will disagree on: lore trumps numbers.

This is a unique world ending force of nature, with origins purposefully left vague. It's not a race you can make builds out of. It's not a common critter you can slap templates on it to make it better numerically. It's the Tarrasque, meant to be the focus sometimes, of entire campaigns. I do believe that D&D made a huge mistake by statting this thing and thus, riling players into killing it, as per the old and very groan inducing adage.

I would have the iconic beast be the center of a campaign, as mentioned earlier. But not to engage it in battle, but to prevent its awakening. And what happens if it awakens? Game over. Sure, many players will come up with the overpowered combos and builds and 100+ books to entitle and back up those builds, but as a DM, I would simply say "it doesn't work, what do you do?""

There is nothing wrong with humbling PCs now and then. Regardless of their power level.

I would say “no gaming is better than bad gaming.” And then never waste time on you again.

[AlanBruce]

I would say “no gaming is better than bad gaming.” And then never waste time on you again.

And this rage induce response was elicited... why? Different games have different rules, other than the mechanical aspects, for the most part. I am certain that at your table you would shine with such bravado, so you do you.

[Morty]

The purpose of this thread is to use the game's rules and resources to make the Tarrasque as challenging as its reputation warrants. Saying "I wouldn't bother giving it stats" is, at best, not very constructive. Of course you can do it, but the reason people are trying to give it feats is because they don't want to.

[liquidformat]

Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Self-recycling Candles of Invocation. Summon an Efereeti: 1st wish (Your actual wish), 2nd wish (An other candle of Invocation) 3rd wish (Whatever the Efereeti wants, so that it leaves you alone).

Get yours today at your local MagicMart for a steal: Just 8400 gp, or just bellow a 5th level PC's Wealth by level. Since Wealth by level is usually the low end, it's totally purchasable as early as 3rd level with a good enough proffession skill.

I haven't been in a game yet in the what 20 years ish of playing 3.5 where spending over one half of your WBL wasn't a hard stop so sure that seems reasonable level 7+ but level 5 and below nah not buying it.


I am certain many here have come, over the years, with a myriad of rule abiding and yet questionable ways of dealing with such an iconic monster.

Here's the thing, which a lot will disagree on: lore trumps numbers.

This is a unique world ending force of nature, with origins purposefully left vague. It's not a race you can make builds out of. It's not a common critter you can slap templates on it to make it better numerically. It's the Tarrasque, meant to be the focus sometimes, of entire campaigns. I do believe that D&D made a huge mistake by statting this thing and thus, riling players into killing it, as per the old and very groan inducing adage.

I would have the iconic beast be the center of a campaign, as mentioned earlier. But not to engage it in battle, but to prevent its awakening. And what happens if it awakens? Game over. Sure, many players will come up with the overpowered combos and builds and 100+ books to entitle and back up those builds, but as a DM, I would simply say "it doesn't work, what do you do?""

There is nothing wrong with humbling PCs now and then. Regardless of their power level.

I personally have never seen the Tarrasque as being a particularly special or iconic entity much less special enough to justify this kind of praise. To be honest an elder dragon or beholder is much more scary and more iconic than these and much more deserving of such treatment and yet they are killed off quite often. Heck its unsettling just how many things in the game revolve around using dragon parts.

Anyways the cat is already out of the bag on the Tarrasque, comically the first adventure I played in had us take down a Tarrasque around level 3-5, granted our solution was just to have it chase us off a cliff into a pit of tar where it would get stuck and sleep for another thousand years or what have you but it worked just fine.

[Asmotherion]

I haven't been in a game yet in the what 20 years ish of playing 3.5 where spending over one half of your WBL wasn't a hard stop so sure that seems reasonable level 7+ but level 5 and below nah not buying it.



I personally have never seen the Tarrasque as being a particularly special or iconic entity much less special enough to justify this kind of praise. To be honest an elder dragon or beholder is much more scary and more iconic than these and much more deserving of such treatment and yet they are killed off quite often. Heck its unsettling just how many things in the game revolve around using dragon parts.

Anyways the cat is already out of the bag on the Tarrasque, comically the first adventure I played in had us take down a Tarrasque around level 3-5, granted our solution was just to have it chase us off a cliff into a pit of tar where it would get stuck and sleep for another thousand years or what have you but it worked just fine.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but treasure distribution differs a lot from DM to DM, so your experiance might not reflect everyone elses experiance. And, my experiance with 3.5 is Exp and Gold flow like a river. And trust my word, I've abused the candle of invocation by level 3 enough so that every regular DM I've had (other than myself) has banned the item.

[Darg]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but treasure distribution differs a lot from DM to DM, so your experiance might not reflect everyone elses experiance. And, my experiance with 3.5 is Exp and Gold flow like a river. And trust my word, I've abused the candle of invocation by level 3 enough so that every regular DM I've had (other than myself) has banned the item.

It's not even hard foil the use of the item for wishes. Some easy tricks are: oops, summoned creature used them already or the creature doesn't trust you'll live up to your end of the bargain so it wants something other than a wish in return.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but treasure distribution differs a lot from DM to DM, so your experiance might not reflect everyone elses experiance. And, my experiance with 3.5 is Exp and Gold flow like a river. And trust my word, I've abused the candle of invocation by level 3 enough so that every regular DM I've had (other than myself) has banned the item.

I'm once again asking you to stop bullying DMs. They have a hard enough job to not have to worry about people specifically searching items to break the game.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm once again asking you to stop bullying DMs. They have a hard enough job to not have to worry about people specifically searching items to break the game.

I was going to reply that nobody tries to pull this stuff off in an actual game, but then I reread the message you were replying to. This is not a message to Asmotherion (I don't know the situation) but more of a message inspired by their post:

Guys, don't try to actually break games. It's only fun for you, and even that only for a little bit.

[Asmotherion]

Guys, my 3.5 group is usually playing high optimisation. Stuff like Celerity and Shivering Touch are fair game.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Guys, my 3.5 group is usually playing high optimisation. Stuff like Celerity and Shivering Touch are fair game.

There is still a world of difference between high optimisation and theoretical optimisation, and Cangle Gate abuse clearly belongs to the second one.

[Lans]

You could have it worship an Elder Evil for 10 feats from a chosen list. If only it could take VoP. What about Ancestral Relic

[Asmotherion]

There is still a world of difference between high optimisation and theoretical optimisation, and Cangle Gate abuse clearly belongs to the second one.
Which is why it was banned.